Deca / EQ cycle

Dm1988

Member
Was wondering if anyone has combined the 2 for a offseason cycle? I know most will say just pick one or the other but I have read a couple articles from Dave palumbo saying he loved the combo just wanted to get some other opinions and hear any experience if any of you have done it I was thinking possibly this thanks

1. Test E 800mg weekly
2. EQ 600mg weekly
3. Deca 400-500mg weekly
4. Armidex .5mg eod
5. Nolvedex 20mg daily
 
It’s an advanced cycle but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work it’s a common cycle. I just hate to see test being the highest out of all.
 
You could probably skip the deca and just use EQ. Those are fairly high doses of those drugs. How much experience do you have with running cycles? Also why the anti-estrogens right off the bat? Estrogen is beneficial for glucose metabolism and GH/IGF-1 increases.
 
You could probably skip the deca and just use EQ. Those are fairly high doses of those drugs. How much experience do you have with running cycles? Also why the anti-estrogens right off the bat? Estrogen is beneficial for glucose metabolism and GH/IGF-1 increases.

I agree with what you're saying here (in general), but if he runs this cycle (which I don't advocate), he'll need an AI.
 
You could probably skip the deca and just use EQ. Those are fairly high doses of those drugs. How much experience do you have with running cycles? Also why the anti-estrogens right off the bat? Estrogen is beneficial for glucose metabolism and GH/IGF-1 increases.
Estrogen slightly elevated is definitely a plus on cycle but it doesn’t mean you have to let it go sky high and not use an AI until you have symptoms of high estrogen. That’s an aspect some people have a hard time understanding. For exemple no AI for me on 600mg of test gets my estrogen double values almost. So yes I take an ai off the bath. That doesn’t mean I kill my estrogen either. I take the amount needed found thru blood works to stay around 60ish points (slightly out of range) which is ideal to gain all the benefits of estrogen without all the negative sides.
 
Estrogen slightly elevated is definitely a plus on cycle but it doesn’t mean you have to let it go sky high and not use an AI until you have symptoms of high estrogen. That’s an aspect some people have a hard time understanding. For exemple no AI for me on 600mg of test gets my estrogen double values almost. So yes I take an ai off the bath. That doesn’t mean I kill my estrogen either. I take the amount needed found thru blood works to stay around 60ish points (slightly out of range) which is ideal to gain all the benefits of estrogen without all the negative sides.

Yep.
 
I agree with what you're saying here (in general), but if he runs this cycle (which I don't advocate), he'll need an AI.

I agree that's a lot of testosterone to use, but using both an AI and SERM is overkill, IMO.

This comes from Invalid Link Removed
(The numbers after the text are references which are included at the bottom)
Estrogen Aromatization

Testosterone is the primary substrate used in the male body for the synthesis of estrogen (estradiol), the principal female sex hormone. Although the presence of estrogen may seem quite unusual in men, it is structurally very
similar to testosterone. With a slight alteration by the enzyme aromatase, estrogen is produced in the male body. Aromatase activity occurs in various regions of the male body, including adipose,22 liver,23 gonadal,24 central
nervous system,25 and skeletal muscle26 tissues. In the context of the average healthy male, the amount of estrogen produced is generally not very significant to one's body disposition, and may even be beneficial in terms of cholesterol values (See Side Effects: Cardiovascular System). However, in larger amounts it does have potential to cause many unwanted effects
including water retention, female breast tissue development (gynecomastia), and body fat accumulation. For these reasons, many focus on minimizing the build-up or activity of estrogen in the body with aromatase inhibitors such as Arimidex and Cytadren, or anti-estrogens such as Clomid or Nolvadex, particularly at times when gynecomastia is a worry or the athlete is
attempting to increase muscle definition.

We must, however, not be led into thinking that estrogen serves no benefit. It is actually a desirable hormone in many regards. Athletes have known for years that estrogenic steroids are the best mass builders, but it is only recently that we are finally coming to understand the underlying mechanisms why. It appears that reasons go beyond the simple size, weight, and strength increases that one would attribute to estrogen-related water retention, with this hormone actually having a direct effect on the process of anabolism. This is manifest through increases in glucose utilization, growth hormone
secretion,and androgen receptor proliferation.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen

Estrogen may play a very important role in the promotion of an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering of the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase, an enzyme directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle tissue growth and recuperation.27 28 More specifically, G6PD is a vital part of the pentose phosphate pathway, which is integral in determining the rate nucleic acids and lipids are to be synthesized in cells for tissue repair. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically,
which is believed to represent a mechanism for the body to enhance recovery when needed. Surprisingly, we find that estrogen is directly tied to the level of G6PD that is to be made available to cells in this recovery window. The link between estrogen and G6PD was established in a study demonstrating levels of this dehydrogenase enzyme to rise after
administration of testosterone propionate. The investigation further showed that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol was directly responsible for this increase, and not the androgenic action of this steroid.29 The nonaromatizable
steroids dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone were tested alongside testosterone propionate, but failed to duplicate the effect of testosterone. Furthermore, the positive effect of testosterone propionate was blocked when the aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane) was added, while 17-beta estradiol administration alone caused a similar increase in G6PD to tesosterone propionate. The inactive estrogen isomer alpha estradiol, which is unable to bind the estrogen receptor, failed to do anything. Further tests using testosterone propionate and the antiandrogen flutamide showed that this drug also did nothing to block the positive action of testosterone, establishing it as an effect independent of the androgen receptor.

Estrogen and GH/IGF-1

Estrogen may also play an important role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor) is an anabolic hormone released in the liver and various peripheral tissues via the stimulus
of growth hormone (See Drug Profiles: Growth Hormone). IGF-1 is responsible for the anabolic activity of growth hormone such as increased nitrogen retention/protein synthesis and cell hyperplasia (proliferation). One of the first studies to bring this issue to our attention looked at the effects of the anti-estrogen tamoxifen on IGF-1 levels, demonstrating it to have a
suppressive effect.30 A second, perhaps more noteworthy, study took place in 1993, which looked at the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels alone, and compared them to the effects of testosterone
combined again with tamoxifen.31 When tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300
mg of testosterone enanthate weekly to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men. Here the 300 mg of testosterone ester caused an elevation of estradiol levels, which would be expected at such a dose. This was compared to the effect of the same dosage of nandrolone decanoate; however, this steroid failed to produce the same increase. This result is quite interesting,
especially when we note that estrogen levels were actually lowered32 when this steroid was given. Yet another demonstrated that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion.33

Estrogen and the Androgen Receptor

It has also been demonstrated that estrogen can increase the concentration of androgen receptors in certain tissues. This was shown in studies with rats, which looked at the effects of estrogen on cellular androgen receptors in animals that underwent orchiectomy (removal of testes, often done to diminish endogenous androgen production). According to the study,
administration of estrogen resulted in a striking 480% increase in methyltrienolone (a potent oral androgen often used to reference receptor binding in studies) binding in the levator ani muscle.34 The suggested explanation is that estrogen must either be directly stimulating androgen receptor production, or perhaps diminishing the rate of receptor breakdown.
Although the growth of the levator ani muscle is commonly used as a reference for the anabolic activity of steroid compounds, it is admittedly a sex organ muscle, and different from skeletal muscle tissue in that it possesses a much higher concentration of androgen receptors. This study, however, did look at the effect of estrogen in fast-twitch skeletal muscle tissues (tibialis anterior and extensor digitorum longus) as well, but did not note the same increase as the levator ani. Although discouraging at first glance, the fact that estrogen can increase androgen receptor binding in any tissue remains an extremely significant finding, especially in light of the fact that we now know androgens to have some positive effects on muscle growth that are mediated outside of muscle tissue.

Estrogen and Fatigue

“Steroid Fatigue” is a common catchphrase these days, and refers to another important function of estrogen in both the male and female body, namely its ability to promote wakefulness and a mentally alert state. Given the common availability of potent third-generation aromatase inhibitors, bodybuilders today are (at times) noticing more extreme estrogen suppression than they had in the past. Often associated with this suppression is fatigue. Under such conditions, the athlete, though on a productive cycle of drugs, may not be able to maximize his or her gains due to an inability to train at full vigor. This effect is sometimes also dubbed “steroid lethargy.” The reason is that estrogen plays an important supporting role in the activity of serotonin. Serotonin is one of the body's principle neurotransmitters, vital to mental alertness and the sleep/wake cycle.35 36 Interference with this neurotransmitter is also associated with chronic fatigue syndrome,37 38 so we can see how vital it is to fatigue specifically. Estrogen suppression in menopause has also been associated with fatigue,39 as has the clinical use of
newer (more potent) aromatase inhibitors like anastrozole,40 letrozole,41 exemestane,42 and fadrozole43 in some patients. These things may be important to consider when planning your next cycle. Although not everyone notices this problem when estrogen is low, for those that do, a little testosterone or estrogen can go a long way in correcting this. It is also of note
that the use of strictly non-aromatizable steroids sometimes causes this effect as well, likely due to the suppression of natural testosterone production (cutting off the main substrate used by the male body to make estrogen).

Continued...
 
Part 2

Anti-Estrogens and the Athlete


So what does this all mean to the bodybuilder looking to gain optimal size? Basically I think it calls for a cautious approach to the use of estrogen maintenance drugs if mass is the key objective (things change, of course, if we are talking about cutting). Obviously, anti-estrogens should be used if there is a clear need for them due to the onset of estrogenic side effects, or at
the very least, the drugs being administered should be substituted for nonestrogenic compounds. Gynecomastia is certainly an unwanted problem for the steroid user, as are noticeable fat mass gains. But if these problems have not presented themselves, the added estrogen due to a cycle of testosterone or Dianabol, for example, might indeed be aiding in the buildup of muscle
mass, or keeping you energetic. An individual confident they will notice, or are not prone to getting, estrogenic side effects, may therefore want to hold off using estrogen maintenance drugs so as to achieve the maximum possible
gains in tissue mass.


22. Aromatization of androgens by muscle and adipose tissue in vivo. Longcope C, Pratt JH,
Schneider SH, Fineberg SE. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1978 Jan;46(1):146-52
23. The aromatization of androstenedione by human adipose and liver tissue. J Steroid
Biochem. 1980 Dec;13(12):1427-31.
24. Aromatase expression in the human male. Brodie A, Inkster S, Yue W. Mol Cell
Endocrinol 2001 Jun 10;178(1-2):23-8
25. A review of brain aromatase cytochrome P450. Lephart ED. Brain Res Brain Res Rev
1996 Jun;22(1):1-26
26. Aromatization by skeletal muscle. Matsumine H, Hirato K, Yanaihara T, Tamada T,
Yoshida M. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1986 Sep;63(3):717-20
27. Pentose Cycle Activity in Muscle from Fetal, Neonatal and Infant Rhesus Monkeys. Arch
Biochem Biophys 117:275-81 1966
28. The pentose phosphate pathway in regenerating skeletal muscle. Biochem J 170: 17 1978
29. Aromatization of androgens to estrogens mediates increased activity of glucose 6-
phosphate dehydrogenase in rat levator ani muscle. Endocrinol
106(2):440-43 1980
30. Influence of tamoxifen, aminoglutethimide and goserelin on human plasma IGF-1 levels in
breast cancer patients. J steroid Biochem Mol Bio 41:541- 3,1992
31. Activation of the somatotropic axis by testosterone in adult males: Evidence for the role of
aromatization. J Clin. Endocrinol Metab 76:1407-12 1993
32. Testosterone administration increases insulin-like growth factor-I levels in normal men. J
Clin Endocrinol Metab 77(3):776-9 1993
33. Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth:the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone
on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and
delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76(4)996-1001 1993
34. Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids.
Endocrinology. 1984 Sep;115(3):862-6.
35. Effect of estrogen-serotonin interactions on mood and cognition. Zenab Amin et al. Behav
Cogn Neurosci Reviews 4(1) 2005:43-58
36. Serotonin and the sleep/wake cycle: special emphasis on miscodialysis studies. Chiara M
Portas et al. Progress in Neurology 60(200) 13-35.
37. Reduction of serotonin transporters of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome.
Neuroreport 2004 Dec 3;15(17):2571-4
Neuroreport 2004 Dec 3;15(17):2571-4
38. Association between serotonin transporter gene polymorphism and chronic fatigue
syndrome. Narita M et al. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 2003 Nov 14;311(2)264-6
39. Premenstrual Syndrome. Dickerson LM et al. Am Fam Physician 2003 Apr
15;67(8):1743-52
40. Phase II trial of anastrozole in women with asymptomatic mullerian cancer. Gynecol
Oncol. 2003 Dec;91(3):596-602.
41. Letrozole. A review of its use in postmenopausal women with advanced breast cancer.
Drugs. 1998 Dec;56(6):1125-40. Review.
42. Exemestane: a review of its clinical efficacy and safety. Breast. 2001 Jun;10(3):198-208.
43. A study of fadrozole, a new aromatase inhibitor, in postmenopausal women with
advanced metastatic breast cancer. J Clin Oncol. 1992 Jan;10(1):111-6.
 
There’s moment in life where we can disagree and have different opinions and then there’s science. Serms block the effects of estrogen in the breast tissue. Basically serms work by sitting in the estrogen receptors in breast cells. If a SERM is in the estrogen receptor, there is no room for estrogen and it can't attach to the cell. it’s not blocking the conversion of androgens to estrogen, just the action of estrogen in some sites. I know you read the anabolic book 11th édition like it’s the Bible ( very good book indeed ) you should then go see the anabolic doc (who partially wrote the book ) on YouTube he explains very well why a serm is not an ai.
 
I reckon that free estrogen affects my brain. Find myself getting into stupid arguments with my wife on SERMs, kind of like she does when she has PMT.
 
Estrogen slightly elevated is definitely a plus on cycle but it doesn’t mean you have to let it go sky high and not use an AI until you have symptoms of high estrogen. That’s an aspect some people have a hard time understanding. For exemple no AI for me on 600mg of test gets my estrogen double values almost. So yes I take an ai off the bath. That doesn’t mean I kill my estrogen either. I take the amount needed found thru blood works to stay around 60ish points (slightly out of range) which is ideal to gain all the benefits of estrogen without all the negative sides.

yes but your experienced and you’ve done bloods to allow you to dial in usage for that test amount.

lots of people come on not knowing that and want to start pounding ai off the bat without any idea where their e will be at. In that case I’d always say wait for funk symptoms (or bloods) to start as crushing e is as bad.

60-80 appears to be the level to shoot for though (as you say, gains without sides)
 
For what it’s worth OP (and regardless of the MOA specifics) id agree that Adex AND nolva is probably pretty excessive (unless you’ve used this combo before and have bloods etc to know it works for you at those levels).

id go nolva only personally.

whilst that’s a high amount of gear the eq conversion is only around 50% so it’s not crazy high test amounts.

any caber for prolactin in the mix?

presumably you’ll donate whilst on? Or be keeping an eye on RBC values?
 
It’s an advanced cycle but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work it’s a common cycle. I just hate to see test being the highest out of all.
How would you structure the numbers ? Thanks
For what it’s worth OP (and regardless of the MOA specifics) id agree that Adex AND nolva is probably pretty excessive (unless you’ve used this combo before and have bloods etc to know it works for you at those levels).

id go nolva only personally.

whilst that’s a high amount of gear the eq conversion is only around 50% so it’s not crazy high test amounts.

any caber for prolactin in the mix?

presumably you’ll donate whilst on? Or be keeping an eye on RBC values?
have used the Adex/nolvedex combo before with great results and I always donate blood minimum 3 times a year I don’t use caber because I have never had issues with prolactin but I do keep some on hand thank you
 
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