Cyclical Bulking...Thoughts on ideal times on/off

kboxer7

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I'm looking into changing up my yearly standard bulk/cut routine for one that I hope will result in more lean mass and less fat gain throughout the year.

CYCLICAL BULKING EXAMPLE:

1-2 month bulk > 2 week cut > 1-2 month bulk > 2 week cut

Obviously a cal surplus during bulk, then a deficit during the cut in percentages standard for either a bulk or cut respectively. The reason this is appealing to me is because I tend to store fat in my midsection and love handles. During my normal bulk it gets a little bad. After my standard cutting period my arms, legs etc are vascular with low bf, but my midsection is still blah no matter what.

I'm hoping that adjusting my training in this manner will aid in minimizing fat storage throughout the year.

BUT, what I'm not sure of is the "ideal" time period of a bulk and subsequent cut, specifically as it relates to cortisol, T3, leptin, and insulin

Thoughts anyone?
 

kisaj

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I don't know, man. I see this as a recipe for disaster hormonally and will likely have you carrying more fat than you started with. Why are you interested in swings in weight as opposed to a steady muscle build with minimal fat gain? Unless you are training for competition, I don't see any benefit to doing this and this is coming from someone that used to go through 2 bulk and cut cycles annually.
 
kboxer7

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I don't know, man. I see this as a recipe for disaster hormonally and will likely have you carrying more fat than you started with. Why are you interested in swings in weight as opposed to a steady muscle build with minimal fat gain? Unless you are training for competition, I don't see any benefit to doing this and this is coming from someone that used to go through 2 bulk and cut cycles annually.
I was a bit bigger way back through puberty and every year when I bulk (even lean bulks at 2-400 cals surplus) I really seem to put on more fat than I'd like in my love handles, lower stomach, and even a bit in my pecs while the rest of me stays pretty lean. I track cals and macros and my diet is about 80% on point.

Came across an article here: http://www.muscleandfitness.com/nutrition/gain-mass/7-steps-cyclical-bulking (not the best source nor article I know, but it got me thinking of alternate ways to bulk/cut).

Was just looking for a way to minimize fat gain throughout the year vs the struggle of trying to do one long cut at the end.

I thought I could bulk for say 2 months, gain say 8 lbs or whatever, then I could do a short cut and keep say 4 lbs of clean muscle. Though you may very well be correct in that its not enough time for hormones to stabilize and I might be setting myself up for disaster. I haven't been able to find much research on how this would play out so idk.

EDIT: I'll add that I MAY get into competing in kickboxing again soonish, so staying within a weight class would be beneficial. But as of right now I'll likely be doing kickboxing as more of a hobby and possibly teaching it again vs competing. Don't have the time for that just yet.
 
kboxer7

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I don't know, man. I see this as a recipe for disaster hormonally and will likely have you carrying more fat than you started with. Why are you interested in swings in weight as opposed to a steady muscle build with minimal fat gain? Unless you are training for competition, I don't see any benefit to doing this and this is coming from someone that used to go through 2 bulk and cut cycles annually.
What would you say is the ideal amount of time between a cut and bulk? Is there a good standard to go by? I've been doing a lean bulk and one 3 month cut per year right now.
 

kisaj

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I don't know if there is an ideal that could be presented to everyone as there are always individual factors that could come into play. I did it for years with an 8 week bulk and then cutting to get to the size/speed I wanted (as I did this for athletics and not bodybuilding), usually about 4-5 weeks. Then I'd recomp for 3 months or so before preparing again.

I can't even say that this was ideal because I did this from 29-36, when I found that my test levels were jacked up and the endos attributed it partially to the weight gains and cuts over the years. Just about everyone I know that has competed in sports/fighting that requires weight cuts is now on TRT because they never fully come back and each cut seems to make it worse.
 
goodvibes

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I normally just bulk all year round and cut for about 8 weeks hardcore. Every year I'm learning to bulk at a leaner pace so each year my cutting feels easier to achieve at a shorter time span. Like kisaj had mentioned though it can mess with your hormones like it did his so I'll definitely make my gains slower this year but more quality.
 

kisaj

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If you are bulking 10ish months out of the year, how much weight are you packing on, on average?
 
goodvibes

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I think everytime I hit 180lbs I'll start recomping by adding cardio. I've been on a bulking phase for 10+ yrs and only started the cutting once a year 3 yrs ago. Every year I've seen great progress
 
kboxer7

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I don't know if there is an ideal that could be presented to everyone as there are always individual factors that could come into play. I did it for years with an 8 week bulk and then cutting to get to the size/speed I wanted (as I did this for athletics and not bodybuilding), usually about 4-5 weeks. Then I'd recomp for 3 months or so before preparing again.

I can't even say that this was ideal because I did this from 29-36, when I found that my test levels were jacked up and the endos attributed it partially to the weight gains and cuts over the years. Just about everyone I know that has competed in sports/fighting that requires weight cuts is now on TRT because they never fully come back and each cut seems to make it worse.
Yeah I did enough cutting back in the day for kickboxing weight classes. Been feeling pretty burned out since like 26 (31 now). Wonder if my hormones took a beating as well.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I'll just continue to focus on as lean of a bulk as I can, with a not too dramatic cut maybe twice a year just to keep things in check.
 
asooneyeonig

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eat more fat, eat less carbs, eat a LOT more meat. focus most of your calories before and after your workout.

keep trying to add mass in your lifting.

enjoy being lean and having more muscle.
 
kboxer7

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eat more fat, eat less carbs, eat a LOT more meat. focus most of your calories before and after your workout.

keep trying to add mass in your lifting.

enjoy being lean and having more muscle.
Yeah, I think rather than cyclical bulking I might look more into carb cycling and dietary changes that can help elicit the results I'm looking for. I know there are some areas I can tweak for sure.

I can prob lower my carbs by 20% and replace that with fat cals which sometimes come in low. Protein intake is pretty solid.

My training is pretty intense volume wise and I've been running low rest periods throughout my recomp. Coming back into a lean bulk I can increase rest times a bit and increase weight even more which should help.
 
jaces

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i think this would work but make it 8 weeks lean bulk and an 4 week small deficit cut.. i know layne norton had an idee about this but its seems good just dont bulk like most people do just eat a little more than TDEE and make you cut low carb to keep up the insulin sensitivity
 
bolt10

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Too short in each IMO to get enough benefit/change for it to be worth it. 8-12 weeks bulk, then 4-8 weeks cutting would be better. I do think a cyclical approach like that makes more sense than the forever bulks so many do then the almost crash diet to try and get to the weight they want after. The shorter bulk and cuts make it easier on you for both as long as you aren't expecting miracles in each short one and look at the big picture. :)
 
kboxer7

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Too short in each IMO to get enough benefit/change for it to be worth it. 8-12 weeks bulk, then 4-8 weeks cutting would be better. I do think a cyclical approach like that makes more sense than the forever bulks so many do then the almost crash diet to try and get to the weight they want after. The shorter bulk and cuts make it easier on you for both as long as you aren't expecting miracles in each short one and look at the big picture. :)
Thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely more in favor of both non-dramatic bulks and non-dramatic cuts. I've tried some serious cutting periods of weight and man does it take a toll on the body.

I think I'll try out going for 8 weeks (pushed to 12 if I feel its needed), then a month or two of cutting and see how things turn out.
 
kboxer7

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TBH, you sound like you really want to be recomping.
I wouldn't be opposed to it lol....

I did a 2 month cut Jan/Feb, then I moved into recomp mode from March thru now and things have gone great. I'll prob stay recomping till Sept., at which point I'm wanting to lean bulk. I'm just planning ahead right now.

As it stands I'm about 13 lbs short of my goal weight (182lbs now and want to be a lean 195ish). So I prob have to overshoot 195 by a fair bit to cut into a lean 195. that's my long term goal right now. I'm 5 '11 with long arms and legs so I may even want to go a tad bigger once I get there. But for now 195 seems like it would be a good goal.
 
jaces

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well ive read a study that showed high chronic insulin levels were not good for muscle growth and think charles poliquin had an article on this as well
 
pfresh

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Yeah, I think rather than cyclical bulking I might look more into carb cycling and dietary changes that can help elicit the results I'm looking for. I know there are some areas I can tweak for sure.

I can prob lower my carbs by 20% and replace that with fat cals which sometimes come in low. Protein intake is pretty solid.

My training is pretty intense volume wise and I've been running low rest periods throughout my recomp. Coming back into a lean bulk I can increase rest times a bit and increase weight even more which should help.
Look into carb backloading. This is what i do and when i find I've been over doing it on the carbs, ill take a two week cycle where i don't carb up and follow the carb nite diet . If i follow carb nite for a month i drop usually around 10 pounds. This has been working very well for me. I've been adding a lot of size this way and it allows me to eat until im full and never feel hungry. Well apart from the mornings where you are fasting. You can find out everything you need to know about the diet through google searches. Its mostly about doing mirror checks in the morning to find your carb sweet spot. Wake up bloated and you over did it. Wake up looking vascular and you're on your way to lean gains
 
kboxer7

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Look into carb backloading. This is what i do and when i find I've been over doing it on the carbs, ill take a two week cycle where i don't carb up and follow the carb nite diet . If i follow carb nite for a month i drop usually around 10 pounds. This has been working very well for me. I've been adding a lot of size this way and it allows me to eat until im full and never feel hungry. Well apart from the mornings where you are fasting. You can find out everything you need to know about the diet through google searches. Its mostly about doing mirror checks in the morning to find your carb sweet spot. Wake up bloated and you over did it. Wake up looking vascular and you're on your way to lean gains
I'm only partially familiar with that strategy. I'll dig into it a little deeper and see if it fits what I'm looking for. Thanks.
 
digitalpimp

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Muscle Media 2000 published an article I believe in 1996 recommending alternating a 2 week bulk followed by a 2 week cut similar to this to gain muscle. It did not go over very well. Even the authors tried it and said it was crap.

I'm with kisaj, I think it's a recipe for disaster.
 

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