Cycle Critique

ayyyman

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Looking for some people to take a look at everything before pulling the trigger. I also have a couple questions about HCG and AI.

Week: 1-4
Testosterone Cypionate - 350mg/wk (175mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 1400mg

Week: 4-11
Testosterone Cypionate - 500mg/wk (250mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 3500mg

Week: 1-19
Arimidex - 0.5mg EOD: Total 34mg

Week: 13-17
Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20 ED: Total 840mg

Week: 13-17
Clomid - 50/50/25/25 ED: Total 1050mg

Other:
22 gauge to draw: Total 22
25 gauge and 1 inch to pin: Total 22


Questions:

1. Will HCG help prevent a reliance on external testosterone post PCT? Is it more likely for your baseline natural test levels to remain consistent with the use of HCG on cycle? Or is HCG mainly just for mood/libido/testicle size while on cycle? Id like to prevent having to have to run TRT at 29 for the rest of my life after the full 19 weeks.

2. Is 0.5mg EOD Adex more or less correct? I know its depending on how your body reacts, but i heard some people only need 0.25mg e3d, and some people need up to 1.0mg ED. Packs come in 10mg each, i dont know if i should order 3 or 4 packs.
 
Cmseabee24

Cmseabee24

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Looking for some people to take a look at everything before pulling the trigger. I also have a couple questions about HCG and AI.

Week: 1-4
Testosterone Cypionate - 350mg/wk (175mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 1400mg

Week: 4-11
Testosterone Cypionate - 500mg/wk (250mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 3500mg

Week: 1-19
Arimidex - 0.5mg EOD: Total 34mg

Week: 13-17
Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20 ED: Total 840mg

Week: 13-17
Clomid - 50/50/25/25 ED: Total 1050mg

Other:
22 gauge to draw: Total 22
25 gauge and 1 inch to pin: Total 22


Questions:

1. Will HCG help prevent a reliance on external testosterone post PCT? Is it more likely for your baseline natural test levels to remain consistent with the use of HCG on cycle? Or is HCG mainly just for mood/libido/testicle size while on cycle? Id like to prevent having to have to run TRT at 29 for the rest of my life after the full 19 weeks.

2. Is 0.5mg EOD Adex more or less correct? I know its depending on how your body reacts, but i heard some people only need 0.25mg e3d, and some people need up to 1.0mg ED. Packs come in 10mg each, i dont know if i should order 3 or 4 packs.
Looks fine but adex is a little high you may only need .25 e3d or you may need .5 e3d. I wouldn’t dose eod or you most likely will crash your e and feel like ****. Start low and if you notice any sensitivity just take a dose that day to help bring it down. The only real way to know how you are responding is bloodwork.
 
Whisky

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Looking for some people to take a look at everything before pulling the trigger. I also have a couple questions about HCG and AI.

Week: 1-4
Testosterone Cypionate - 350mg/wk (175mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 1400mg

Week: 4-11
Testosterone Cypionate - 500mg/wk (250mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 3500mg

Week: 1-19
Arimidex - 0.5mg EOD: Total 34mg

Week: 13-17
Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20 ED: Total 840mg

Week: 13-17
Clomid - 50/50/25/25 ED: Total 1050mg

Other:
22 gauge to draw: Total 22
25 gauge and 1 inch to pin: Total 22


Questions:

1. Will HCG help prevent a reliance on external testosterone post PCT? Is it more likely for your baseline natural test levels to remain consistent with the use of HCG on cycle? Or is HCG mainly just for mood/libido/testicle size while on cycle? Id like to prevent having to have to run TRT at 29 for the rest of my life after the full 19 weeks.

2. Is 0.5mg EOD Adex more or less correct? I know its depending on how your body reacts, but i heard some people only need 0.25mg e3d, and some people need up to 1.0mg ED. Packs come in 10mg each, i dont know if i should order 3 or 4 packs.
I wouldn’t dose adex at all to start with bro. Have it on hand and only use if gyno sides appear (and then start low and build up slowly. The sensitive nipples and soft lumps forming behind are relatively easy to tell when you get them. I personally prefer asin but either work.

most of the people I respect and listen too are consistent in the view that people using aas used too much ai and limited both growth and created issues from low e.

on HGC you have too options, run it throughout the cycle at 250 each pin (each pin isn’t optimal, I think the day after is but I find it easier to stab everything in the same sitting) - that’ll keep your nuts full on cycle so if you like juicy nuts you might want to do that way.

alternatively you can use a much bigger dose (5,000 - 10,000) at the end of a cycle to kickstart your testes into action. Just google restart protocols (dean st marts is the one I’ve used) and you’ll see what I mean.

either works and makes pct better.

have fun bro
 

ayyyman

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on HGC you have too options, run it throughout the cycle at 250 each pin (each pin isn’t optimal, I think the day after is but I find it easier to stab everything in the same sitting) - that’ll keep your nuts full on cycle so if you like juicy nuts you might want to do that way.

alternatively you can use a much bigger dose (5,000 - 10,000) at the end of a cycle to kickstart your testes into action. Just google restart protocols (dean st marts is the one I’ve used) and you’ll see what I mean.

either works and makes pct better.
By keeping your nuts full on cycle, will that minimize your chances of your body developing a dependency on external testosterone, or is it mainly just for cosmetic reasons? Rich Piana told me to make sure my dick hangs lower than my balls, so i dont care about testicular atrophy.

Will the clomid and nolva get me to 100% in 4 weeks, or is there a possibility that clomid and nolva will only get me to ~90% for example. Whereas, HCG + clomid and nolva will get me to 100%?
 
Cmseabee24

Cmseabee24

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By keeping your nuts full on cycle, will that minimize your chances of your body developing a dependency on external testosterone, or is it mainly just for cosmetic reasons? Rich Piana told me to make sure my dick hangs lower than my balls, so i dont care about testicular atrophy.

Will the clomid and nolva get me to 100% in 4 weeks, or is there a possibility that clomid and nolva will only get me to ~90% for example. Whereas, HCG + clomid and nolva will get me to 100%?
Anything is possible man no one can tell you for sure and anyone that says different I wouldn’t take advice from.
 
Whisky

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By keeping your nuts full on cycle, will that minimize your chances of your body developing a dependency on external testosterone, or is it mainly just for cosmetic reasons? Rich Piana told me to make sure my dick hangs lower than my balls, so i dont care about testicular atrophy.

Will the clomid and nolva get me to 100% in 4 weeks, or is there a possibility that clomid and nolva will only get me to ~90% for example. Whereas, HCG + clomid and nolva will get me to 100%?
yeah as above bro this all comes with risk and no guarantees - it’s all about risk management, we try to mitigate sides and long term negative effects but nothing is definite.

the theory is that keeping your nuts full on cycle makes it easier for them to kickstart your own natural production quicker, as does the higher dosing at the end of the cycle.

I don’t look at it in terms of a ‘dependance on external test’ but rather more that you will slowly decrease the natural test count you can get to over time/cycles. So you might start before any cycle with mid range test but 4 years later your struggling to recover to low range. That’s just an example but I think most of us probably expect that to happen, a slow gradual decrease in natty levels with the eventual likelihood of trt.

but there’s always outliers, guys who always recover to previous levels and guys who run one cycle and never recover.....

I waited till my mid 30’s and a vasectomy to pull the trigger for that reason, at that stage in my life the benefits outweighed the risks - everyone will evaluate that differently but that was my view
 

jrock645

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I agree about the aromasin dosage. Maybe too much and you likely won't need it right away. Also, no need running it from the beginning of pct either. Also, starting at one dose on the test and then raising it also seems unnecessary
 
AnabolicGuru

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Looking for some people to take a look at everything before pulling the trigger. I also have a couple questions about HCG and AI.

Week: 1-4
Testosterone Cypionate - 350mg/wk (175mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 1400mg

Week: 4-11
Testosterone Cypionate - 500mg/wk (250mg 2x/wk - Pin on Monday and Thursday): Total 3500mg

Week: 1-19
Arimidex - 0.5mg EOD: Total 34mg

Week: 13-17
Nolvadex - 40/40/20/20 ED: Total 840mg

Week: 13-17
Clomid - 50/50/25/25 ED: Total 1050mg

Other:
22 gauge to draw: Total 22
25 gauge and 1 inch to pin: Total 22


Questions:

1. Will HCG help prevent a reliance on external testosterone post PCT? Is it more likely for your baseline natural test levels to remain consistent with the use of HCG on cycle? Or is HCG mainly just for mood/libido/testicle size while on cycle? Id like to prevent having to have to run TRT at 29 for the rest of my life after the full 19 weeks.

2. Is 0.5mg EOD Adex more or less correct? I know its depending on how your body reacts, but i heard some people only need 0.25mg e3d, and some people need up to 1.0mg ED. Packs come in 10mg each, i dont know if i should order 3 or 4 packs.
Personally, I don’t see any point in the adjustment to the dosage of testosterone cypionate; I’d just run it at 500mg the whole time. Also, I’d either start with .25mg eod or .5mg twice a week for arimidex and adjust as necessary. I personally can tell if my estrogen is too high because my nipples will begin to get excessively itchy. As far as hcg goes, some people theorize that without hcg the whole cycle, that the leydig cells could potentially permanently atrophy due to them not being utilized. I personally still haven’t seen any studies or whatnot to confirm this. Definitely wouldn’t hurt to utilize it though. Some people will also use hcg during the transitional period to pct so they don’t feel like garbage while the esters clear their systems. I wouldn’t use hcg during pct because I believe that it will mess with the effectiveness of your nolva and clomid due to the hypothalamus recognizing the hcg as lh and not feeling the need to produce GnRH. Typical dosage for hcg is 250-500iu twice per week for a total of 500-1000iu weekly.
 
bruno.camilo

bruno.camilo

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0.5mg arimidex is fine twice per week (total 1mg per week)

also i think your cycle is too short, would go for 16 weeks at least.
 
bruno.camilo

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16 weeks at least? Seriously? With what goal- trying to get on trt as soon as possible? Seriously, terrible general advice.
Never seen a testosterone cycle of 11 weeks, its gonna be the same but he probably gonna end up losing all his gains.
 

jrock645

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Never seen a testosterone cycle of 11 weeks, its gonna be the same but he probably gonna end up losing all his gains.
Don't tell me that you magically think that by doing 16 weeks he'd end up keeping his gains. Cause that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
 
AnabolicGuru

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16 weeks at least? Seriously? With what goal- trying to get on trt as soon as possible? Seriously, terrible general advice.
Yea kinda agree here, test cyp and enan are both perfectly fine for 12 weeks. 4 more weeks and you’re only further suppressing your body and adding more stress for minimal gains. Would be a different story if it were eq or deca.
 
Pleonastic

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Yea kinda agree here, test cyp and enan are both perfectly fine for 12 weeks. 4 more weeks and you’re only further suppressing your body and adding more stress for minimal gains. Would be a different story if it were eq or deca.
12 week cycle is just fine but 14 and 16 weeks is not any worse really either. All are good. its hard to put an exact amount of weeks as too much. But when you get around 20 id say you start assuming more risk.
 
bruno.camilo

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12 week cycle is just fine but 14 and 16 weeks is not any worse really either. All are good. its hard to put an exact amount of weeks as too much. But when you get around 20 id say you start assuming more risk.
What risks?
 
StarScream66

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I would also advise against using an AI throughout the full cycle (unless you're trying to cut at the same time.

This is taken from William Llewellyn's Anabolics 9th edition book.

Estrogen Aromatization

Testosterone is the primary substrate used in the male body for the synthesis of estrogen (estradiol), the principal female sex hormone. Although the presence of estrogen may seem quite unusual in men, it is structurally very similar to testosterone. With a slight alteration by the enzyme aromatase, estrogen is produced in the male body. Aromatase activity occurs in various regions of the male body, including adipose,22 liver,23 gonadal,24 central nervous system,25 and skeletal muscle26 tissues. In the context of the average healthy male, the amount of estrogen produced is generally not very significant to one's body disposition, and may even be beneficial in terms of cholesterol values (See Side Effects: Cardiovascular Disease). However, in larger amounts it does have potential to cause many unwanted effects including water retention, female breast tissue development (gynecomastia), and body fat accumulation. For these reasons, many focus on minimizing the build-up or activity of estrogen in the body with aromatase inhibitors such as Arimidex and Cytadren, or antiestrogens such as Clomid or Nolvadex, particularly at times when gynecomastia is a worry or the athlete is attempting to increase muscle definition.

We must, however, not be led into thinking that estrogen serves no benefit. It is actually a desirable hormone in many regards. Athletes have known for years that estrogenic steroids are the best mass builders, but it is only recently that we are finally coming to understand the underlying mechanisms why. It appears that reasons go beyond the simple size, weight, and strength increases that one would attribute to estrogen-related water retention, with this hormone actually having a direct effect on the process of anabolism. This is manifest through increases in glucose utilization, growth hormone secretion, and androgen receptor proliferation.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen

Estrogen may playa very important role in the promotion of an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering of the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase, an enzyme directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle tissue growth and recuperation.27 28 More specifically, G6PD is a vital part of the pentose phosphate pathway, which is integral in determining the rate nucleic acids and lipids are to be synthesized in cells for tissue repair. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically, which is believed to represent a mechanism for the bo.dy to enhance recovery when needed. Surprisingly, we find that estrogen is directly tied to the level of G6PD that is to be made available to cells in this recovery window.
The link between estrogen and G6PD was established in a study demonstrating levels of this dehydrogenase enzyme to rise after administration of testosterone
propionate. The investigation further showed that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol was directly responsible for this increase, and not the androgenic action of this steroid.29 The non-aromatizable steroids dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone were tested alongside testosterone propionate, but failed to duplicate the effect of testosterone. Furthermore, the positive effect of testosterone propionate was blocked when the aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane) was added, while 17-beta estradiol administration alone caused a similar increase in G6PD to testosterone propionate.The inactive estrogen isomer 17alpha estradiol, which is unable to bind the estrogen receptor, failed to do anything. Further tests using testosterone propionate and the anti-androgen flutamide showed that this drug also did nothing to block the positive action of testosterone, establishing it as an effect independent of the androgen receptor.

Estrogen and GH/IGF·l

Estrogen may also play an important role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin-: like growth factor) is an anabolic hormone released in the liver and various peripheral tissues via the stimulus of growth hormone (See Drug Profiles: Growth Hormone). IGF-1 is responsible for the anabolic activity of growth hormone such as increased nitrogen retention/protein synthesis and cell hyperplasia (proliferation). One of the first studies to bring this issue to our attention looked at I the effects of the anti-estrogen tamoxifen on IGF-1 levels, demonstrating it to have a suppressive effect.30 A second, perhaps more noteworthy, study took place in 1993, which looked at the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels alone, and compared them to the effects of testosterone combined again with tamoxifen.3' When tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-l levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300 mg of testosterone enanthate weekly to cause a slight IGF-l increase in normal men. Here the 300 mg of testosterone ester caused an elevation of estradiol levels, which would be expected at such a dose. This was compared to the effect of the same dosage of nandrolone decanoate; however, this steroid failed to produce the same increase. This result is quite interesting, especially when we note that estrogen levels were actually lowered32 when this steroid was given. Yet another demonstrated that GH and IGF-l secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-l secretion.33
Continued in next post...
 
StarScream66

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Continued...

Estrogen and the Androgen Receptor

It has also been demonstrated that estrogen can increase the concentration of androgen receptors in certain tissues. This was shown in studies with rats, which looked at the effects of estrogen on cellular androgen receptors in animals that underwent orchiectomy (removal of testes, often done to diminish endogenous androgen production). According to the study, administration of estrogen resulted in a striking 4800/0 increase in methyltrienolone (a potent oral androgen often used to reference receptor binding in studies) binding in the levator ani muscle.34 The suggested explanation is that estrogen must either be directly stimulating androgen receptor production, or perhaps diminishing the rate of receptor breakdown. Although the growth of the levator ani muscle is commonly used as a reference for the anabolic activity of steroid compounds, it is admittedly a sex organ muscle, and different from skeletal muscle tissue in that it possesses a much higher concentration of androgen receptors. This study, however, did look at the effect of estrogen in fast-twitch skeletal muscle tissues (tibialis anterior and extensor digitorum longus) as well, but did not note the same increase as the levator ani. Although discouraging at first glance, the fact that estrogen can increase androgen receptor binding in any tissue remains an extremely significant finding, especially in light of the fact that we now know androgens to have some positive effects on muscle growth that are mediated outside of muscle tissue.
Estrogen and Fatigue
"Steroid Fatigue" is a common catchphrase these days, and refers to another important function of estrogen in both the male and female body, namely its ability to promote wakefulness and a mentally alert state. Given the common availability of potent third-generation aromatase inhibitors, bodybuilders today are (at times) noticing more extreme estrogen suppression than they had in the past. Often associated with this suppression is fatigue. Under such conditions, the athlete, though on a
productive cycle of drugs, may not be able to maximize his or her gains due to an inability to train at full vigor.This effect is sometimes also dubbed "steroid lethargy." The reason is that estrogen plays an important supporting role in the activity of serotonin. Serotonin is one of the body's principle neurotransmitters, vital to mental alertness and the sleep/wake cycle.35 36 Interference with this neurotransmitter is also associated with chronic fatigue syndrome,37 38 so we can see how vital it is to fatigue specifically. Estrogen suppression in menopause has also been associated with fatigue,39 as has the clinical use of newer (more potent) aromatase inhibitors like anastrozole,4o letrozole,41 exemestane,42 and fadrozole43 in some patients. These things may be important to consider when planning your next cycle. Although not everyone notices this problem when estrogen is low, for those that do, a little testosterone or estrogen can go a long way in correcting this. It is also of note that the use of strictly non-aromatizable steroids sometimes causes this effect as well, likely due to the suppression of natural testosterone production (cutting off the main substrate used by the male body to make estrogen).

Anti-Estrogens and the Athlete

So what does this all mean to the bodybuilder looking to gain optimal size? Basically I think it calls for a cautious approach to the use of estrogen maintenance drugs if mass is the key objective (things change, of course, if we are talking about cutting). Obviously, anti-estrogens
should be used if there is a clear need for them due to the onset of estrogenic side effects, or at the very least, the drugs being administered should be substituted for nonestrogenic compounds. Gynecomastia is certainly an unwanted problem for the steroid user, as are noticeable fat mass gains. But if these problems have not presented themselves, the added estrogen due to a cycle of testosterone or Dianabol, for example, might indeed be aiding in the buildup of muscle mass, or keeping you energetic. An individual confident they will notice, or are not prone to getting, estrogenic side effects, may therefore want to hold off using estrogen maintenance drugs so as to achieve the maximum possible gains in tissue mass.
 
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