These cycles can be used to rip up as well..Im doing 20mg M-1 test w/4AD along with Milk Thistle on a calorie restricted diet which includes at least 200 grams of protien a day and some fats with very low carbs...This is allowing me to rip up fairly quickly without losing any hard earned muscle...So far im into week 2 and im starting to see abs and veins are starting to pop.I plan to do this for 4 or 5 weeks then a heavy PCT w/ clomid and Nolva.....Ill keep ya posted..