Originally posted by Bobo
1. Provirin is 1-methylated DHT and reacts in the same fashion. Should of said 1-methylated DHT levels. The control mechanism keeps it from reaching supraphysiological levels and the rest is converted back to 3-alpha until DHT levels are low enough for it to get converted back to 1-methylated DHT.
Do you have a reference for this? I'm pretty sure any self-regulation of DHT levels (at least when supraphysiological amounts are involved) will come from shutting down test production.
2. PA doesn't know but also agrees its probably instataneous. I've seen him post that somewhere but this is also speculated by others.
I've seen him speculate the other way so this is pretty much a wash. I had a similiar discussion with him on 4AD over at bb.com
3. Well its more similar to Test than D-bol but D-bol still aromatizes into E2 and 17 Methyl E2 along with methyltest. I didn't say it was a derivative but its reacts in the same way AS test derivatives. If it reacts in the same fashion in terms of side effects, then its a good assumption, if what is happening is unknown. Like you said, the side effects suggest something else is going on. If its estrogen related, this could be it.
Could be, but this is a shot in the dark. Again, we know what it does convert to -- most effects probably come from conversion to test and possibly 4dione
4. With most of the PH absorbed within the first hour and the rest hours after that, saturation doesn't really play much of an issue IMO. Plus if conversion is instantaneous like most speculate, then its not an issue in my book. I'm more worried about what happens when natural levels of test are reached and what happens after that point.
I'm curious as how you can say this. Transdermals deliver a constant flow, which means once levels are saturated -- they stay saturated. There is a finite amount of 3bHSD in your body; once it's occupied no more 4AD will convert.
Also, what's the obsession with natural levels of test and DHT? You're suppressing test production almost immediately, whether you go past natural levels or not (at least in the examples we're discussing)
"Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected."
1. PA is not the only one. Many discussion over at CEM speculate the same thing so I don't personall think its a wash. Thats your opinion.
2. I don't think its a shot in the dark. I think its a wise assumption since the majority of the side effects are similar and its a precursor to test anyway. Its theorizing based on available data.
3. I think the conversion is instantaneous or happens in a very short amount of time. If we were to follow your theory once that number is reached, no more 4AD will ever convert. I think once the convreion is made, the enzyme is free to convert more. The limiting factor is the amount being absorbed and with a trans its more of a controlled slower delivery so I don't believe saturation is a big factor unless your taking insane amounts.
4. I explained my reasons about natural levels of test above and I'm not really concerned about suppression. I more concerned to what substance or what metabolites are produced when test levels hit their maximum (converison of 4AD). If 4AD ability to convert test is limited, then what substance does it convert too when those levels are reached. I think its more active or inactive metabolites which could explain the increased estrogenic side effects that most see.
Quote by PA
"Enzymes do not have to recover any more than a toll booth has to recover after the car ahead of you goes through. I would imagine also that the conversion of a steroid molecule by this enzyme happens in like a nanosecond or something like that. Boom! Its done"
"I think we have to remember that there are competing enzymes that can do other things to the hormones, so its a matter of what percentage gets to interact first with the 3beta HSD, what percentage first gets hydroxylated, what percentage first gets converted to the 17ketone by 17b-HSD, what percentage gets dumped by the kidneys before any metabolism can occur, etc etc
But if 3beta HSD were the only enzyme in the body then perhaps you would be correct.
As it stands, i think its my guess that the majority of 4diols do get converted by 3beta-HSD before they undergo any other fates."
"If it converts to testosteorne then surely you will also see formation of all metabolites of testosterone.
HOwever, there is apparently no DIRECT 5alpha reduction of 4-AD"
These are the statements I base my opinion on. Its seems conversion is rather quick, and metabolites are produced (although we don't kow which ones) . From this I also assume saturation is rather tough to do unless your taking ridiculous amounts. If your doing that, you mine ass well take the real thing.