Unanswered Comparing test/mast to tren and tren controversy

CroLifter

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Greetings,

So i wanted to ask a few questions about something i have been researching recently.
Basically, i am constructing my next blast which will be a recomp. And i would like to stick to test and masteron.
Also, it seems like a good idea to confirm/bust some of the myhts concerning trenbolone.

So, lets begin...

Lets say someone can only handle 150-200mg of tren. Anymore than that and psychological side effects are too much. Now, from anecdotal evidence from people who had used both compounds, it seems that tren builds about 3x as much muscle than test on a same dose (say 200 tren = 600 test). Some ncbi studies i read seem to agree on this (qutoing tren has 3x the androgen receptor binding affinitiy than that of test ).

We also know from anecdotal evidence from people who used it that masteron build about 2/3 as much muscke as test. So, my question is, in your opinion, should a stack of 300 test/400 masteron yield similar muscle building/retaining results as 150-200mg of tren? On paper they would be really close as far as anabolic potency goes, and this stack should keep you pretty dry and hard (provided you use an AI of course, as needed).

And that stack should still be less toxic to your heart, kidneys etc. than 150-200mg of tren?
Also, there are potential neurodegenerative side- effects of tren which need to be taken into the account.

***Lately i have been seeing some people (including Seth Spartan) talking about how trenbolone is safer long term than testosterone, because some minor study showed that it protects the heart in rats. Also, that it seems to be more selective in its binding to the AR.
Some even suggest it as a possible form of TRT, because of its more selective nature (which is crazy to me)
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6189634/) <---- this one is interesting

https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/157/1/368/2251856 <---- i am actually trying to make sense of this study. It seems to be contradicting everything we know about trenbolone so far, ie. its harshness etc.

I just dont know. From peoples accounts it seems that heart muscle tends to get over stimulated by trenbolone, ie. chronically elevated heart rate.

What do you all think?


Edit: Just as a side note, eople say that masteron doesnt do anything for their strength. I digress. There is no way in hell for me to hit my pressing numbers I was hitting while on 400mg of masteron right now. The aggression in the gym was on another level. I wish i could run it at 400+ pw for prolonged periods of time. But it causes me panic attacks amd i was all around a mental mess. Felt like i was going to lose my mind at times.
 
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CroLifter

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Test and tren all the way!
Temptation is high, but is it really the smart approach? Data seems to be contradictory as you can see from the above post. Most say that trenbolone is the single most toxic steroid you can take for your heart. But these 2 studies point otherwise. Or am i missing something?
Also, there is a neurodegenerative concern too with trenbolone.
 

AustinHise

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Temptation is high, but is it really the smart approach? Data seems to be contradictory as you can see from the above post. Most say that trenbolone is the single most toxic steroid you can take for your heart. But these 2 studies point otherwise. Or am i missing something?
As long as your dieting bro I never get better results then with test and tren. It’s alll personal !
 

AustinHise

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Temptation is high, but is it really the smart approach? Data seems to be contradictory as you can see from the above post. Most say that trenbolone is the single most toxic steroid you can take for your heart. But these 2 studies point otherwise. Or am i missing something?
Also, there is a neurodegenerative concern too with trenbolone.
As long as you don’t drink, train, diet, STAY HYDRATED and don’t run crazy numbers man you will be fine!
 
Matthersby

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Honestly mast sucks just as bad for me for anxiety.
With a sea of great drugs out there, I refuse to run stuff that’s going to make me miserable.
I’m in the same boat, wanting to recomp, maybe even add a little mass while losing a lot of bodyfat.
Dienolone is great for this ESPECIALLY stacked with any DHT.
I’ve been planning a run to start next week just for this.
NPP 300
Dienolone 500
Winstrol 50/day
T3
I’ll bet I lose little to no strength or size. And I won’t feel like ****.
 

GettinSwolen

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Why limit yourself to test and mast? First off, tren has more benefits than just building muscle so the comparison between the amount of tren vs mast/test just isn't comparable. Maybe muscle building wise they are similar, but nitrogen retention, nutrient partitioning, the list goes on, that is why tren is loved and hated by so many.

My suggestion would be look into tren hex (parabolan) only approved form for human consumption, its a longer ester which appears to minimize sides experienced by most.

And in my opinion Mast is trash, and i think others will agree that you are better off with primo or DHB if funds allow. I know mast is a lot cheaper but if money isn't a tight restraint then run either of those.

Possible cycle depending on experience:
200-300mg/wk Test
200-300mg/wk Tren Hex
400-600mg/wk DHB
along with some anavar or winny
 

CroLifter

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Why limit yourself to test and mast? First off, tren has more benefits than just building muscle so the comparison between the amount of tren vs mast/test just isn't comparable. Maybe muscle building wise they are similar, but nitrogen retention, nutrient partitioning, the list goes on, that is why tren is loved and hated by so many.

My suggestion would be look into tren hex (parabolan) only approved form for human consumption, its a longer ester which appears to minimize sides experienced by most.

And in my opinion Mast is trash, and i think others will agree that you are better off with primo or DHB if funds allow. I know mast is a lot cheaper but if money isn't a tight restraint then run either of those.

Possible cycle depending on experience:
200-300mg/wk Test
200-300mg/wk Tren Hex
400-600mg/wk DHB
along with some anavar or winny
I decided to try parabolan at 76mg (one amp) per week added to my 125mg test e cruise. 5 weeks beginning on 1st of july (thats how much time i got before coming off from then) , a trial run just to see how i respond.
I dont expect anything crazy. Maintenance calories and high protein. Strength based program. Drop a few lbs of fat while adding 1-2lbs of muscle potentially. Kinda last resort to look a tiny bit better during this summer still. More like testing the waters for the next summer.
I am coming off in august and will stay off for at least 4 months, so might as well see what i can achieve.
Those studies look promising, it doesnt seem like tren is too damaging at such a low dose (up to 1mg/kg per week it was even considered as potential hrt) so i hope everything goes well.
I will check my lipids in a few days (rbc is in check) and if everything is ok i will go for it.
 

CroLifter

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Well.. nothing really compares to tren...
We will see. Might log this one. Just a 5 weeker, trial run, at very low dose.
If stuff goes haywire as far as side effects go (i am not talking about sweats and insomnia, i am talking about panic attacks and feeling like i am dying), of course i am aborting.
 
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CroLifter

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Oh ****, changed your mind?
Nothing new in my book.
Anyway, i really want to try it. But i am going very light, so we will see. I will be coming off soon afterwards and want to see if i can push my physique a tad more, i am already pretty satisfied with my physique, but if i could lose just a few lbs of fat while gaining 1-2lbs of muscle. Rbc and blood pressure is in check. If lipids also come in fine, i am giving it a green light.

I will be honest, log by @Alchemist11 inspired me. Now of course, i dont expect even 20% the results he got. Just a trial run.
 
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Mathb33

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Oh i thought I heard you say you were scared to run tren my bad! I’ve been thinking about running tren low
dose too and tbh idc hurting my body to a point or my hormones for a while but tren scares me a bit... how it can mess with your heart
 
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Renew1

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Oh i thought I heard you say you were scared to run tren my bad! I’ve been thinking about running tren lose dose too and tbh idc hurting my body to a point or my hormones for a while but tren scares me a bit... how it can mess with your heart
I've never run it, and I've been doing this a longg time.
But, who knows ...
 

CroLifter

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Oh i thought I heard you say you were scared to run tren my bad! I’ve been thinking about running tren lose dose too and tbh idc hurting my body to a point or my hormones for a while but tren scares me a bit... how it can mess with your heart
I dunno man...the problem is it will be bugging me. Even if i dont run it ever again at least i will know i dont tolerate it and wont be asking myself "what if".
According to these studies, low dose, which was in these studies 1mg/kg of bodyweight for these rats shouldnt be overly toxic. In fact, should be better for the prostate compared to testosterone.
That would be 110mg pw for me. And i will run 76mg pw.

And as you can see in the 2nd study, tren @ 2mg/kg of bodyweight induced less thickening of cardiac valves than 2mg/kg of test. Completely new findings to me. I actually read a lot for the past few days, it seems tren behaves a lot like a sarm at low doses.

I agree with you on the shut down though. But i am ready to take that risk. I took it the first time i stuck a needle in my a$$.
 
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Alchemist11

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Well, you can calculate how anabolic or androgenic certan compund is, but you also have to take in consideration that drugs effects and all details... For example test can't compare to Tren's ability with nutrition partitioning and cns stimulating effect. But I did realy enjoyed Parabolan. Glad I could help you man
 
ItalOne

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Lol, tren being safer then test is absurd!! If your looking for tren like effects I’ve had great success with NPP, Mast, Var and of course test. I prefer the mast on the high end.

Test @ 300
NPP @ 400
Mast E @ 800
Var 60-80mg

Normally I like the test even or above the nandrolone but with high levels of DHT from the mast and var balance it all out nice. You only have to eat slightly above maintenance to get awesome size, strength and a solid recomp effect. Obviously it will work on a cut as well.
 

CroLifter

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Lol, tren being safer then test is absurd!! If your looking for tren like effects I’ve had great success with NPP, Mast, Var and of course test. I prefer the mast on the high end.

Test @ 300
NPP @ 400
Mast E @ 800
Var 60-80mg

Normally I like the test even or above the nandrolone but with high levels of DHT from the mast and var balance it all out nice. You only have to eat slightly above maintenance to get awesome size, strength and a solid recomp effect. Obviously it will work on a cut as well.
I cant run masteron over 300mg pw because i have panic attacks and generally do not feel good.

I am not saying that tren is safer than test, definitely not at doses most guys are using. But at doses of 2mg/kg (and thereodre probably in lower doses too since tren seems to exhibit tissue specific anabolic activity) in rats it is more forgiving to the heart and the prostate than test.
Since we dont have human studies this is the best we got. But it gives a general idea of how these substances behave in mammals.

I dont know. I am going to use it @ 0.71 mg/kg. According to those studies, it should be safe. And a lot of people use much higher doses.
But yeah, you never know...I would say that most of the bad things that happen are dose dependent
 
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Chados

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Well masteron isnt close to test let alone tren. It shouldnt even be in the same category. Masteron is one of the weakest muscle builders youll find and its underwhelming if youre not very low bodyfat and even then winstrol trumps it, anavar is better, primo is better.

All these will add muscle while masteron wont and besides being lean youd need to stack masteron, a simple test masteron is a waste of money for me, tren masteron sure that would be good.

I dont like recommending certain compounds due to safety of another person and the fact that i dont know their history or how theyll react but test winstrol or test anavar would be great
 

CroLifter

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Well masteron isnt close to test let alone tren. It shouldnt even be in the same category. Masteron is one of the weakest muscle builders youll find and its underwhelming if youre not very low bodyfat and even then winstrol trumps it, anavar is better, primo is better.

All these will add muscle while masteron wont and besides being lean youd need to stack masteron, a simple test masteron is a waste of money for me, tren masteron sure that would be good.

I dont like recommending certain compounds due to safety of another person and the fact that i dont know their history or how theyll react but test winstrol or test anavar would be great
Test tren mast 😀

Yeah, but we will see how i react (125mg test e 76mg parabolan pw) and then future plans can be disucssed. Right now it is pointless.
 

Jeremyk1

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Lol, tren being safer then test is absurd!!
First of all, I think that’s kind of the point of this thread. He saw some research showing it to be safe, so he wanted some discussion on that.

Second, have you ever considered substantiating anything you say? Or do you really just expect everyone to accept your opinion as fact?
 
chemjr

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I would have to agree w basically everything the OP said.

Also i may reccomend test and *proviron instead of mast. Mast makes me on edge once im "on" and i hate it, frikin miserable. Whereas proviron does somewhat similar to dbol as far as a good mood and all that. Also you coyld okay with dosages on workout days for pre and post workout dosages and then keep the rest baseline to keep gains etc and it has also been shown to be Good* for suppressed hpta so thats always a plus. Just a thought. Hope everything works out and let us know what ya decide.
-the dude abides
 
chemjr

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I completely agree w everytbung the OP said and think tren is garbage and the white matrer in the brain is enough for me to say f that crap, let alone what ive heard from cattle farmers! The stories, oh lordie.

Anyways, i would highly consider test and *proviron for your strength stack as you could play w dosages for lifiting day/ pwo and all that as well as proviron being Good for suppressed hpta! Toss in a little t3 and some low dose cialis for a good pump 24/7 and i think you'd love the recomp and provirion also makes my mood great similar* to dbol unlike mast which makes me on edge once im "on", which blows goats. Just my 2c.

Best of luck and let us know what you decide.
 

CroLifter

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I completely agree w everytbung the OP said and think tren is garbage and the white matrer in the brain is enough for me to say f that crap, let alone what ive heard from cattle farmers! The stories, oh lordie
Here is the study that touches on this one:
Care to share some of the things you heard from farmers?

There is a negative to every positive. It is just how much risk we are willing to take.

I was thinking about all this stuff (aas abuse) a lot lately and have come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, we are men, we do things to be and feel good, strong and powerful.
And then I think about other activities i did throughout my life that made me feel good. Jet skiing, jumping from cliffs into the river, using weapons, using various potentially dangerous machines and tools, trying to build a steam engine and a boiler lol, playing with transformers and high voltage...even dumb stuff we did as kids like climbing trees etc. It seems that almost every single typical "male" behaviour will always carry a certain dose of risk. It is about how much risk are we willing to accept.
Now we can argue why we all do this. Most of us do it because we feel good, we feel powerful. But are there more simple, more primitivistic biological instincts driving these behaviours? I strongly believe that to be true.
 
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Chados

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I think if i could go back and change things i would. There are cycles that are very regretful and we want something out of them regardless of how safe they are, thats why we go for more and more all the time.

Its better to run a big cycle that's short than to have these small cycles that won't do anything and have cortisol and bp elevated for months and months. Muscles aren't everything and if it is, we should get some help cause its just not a healthy mentality and certainly it will cause anxiety for other things we don't get done in life.
 
ItalOne

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First of all, I think that’s kind of the point of this thread. He saw some research showing it to be safe, so he wanted some discussion on that.

Second, have you ever considered substantiating anything you say? Or do you really just expect everyone to accept your opinion as fact?
I know it was the point and a stupid point at that!! Why is it so bad to say that’s absurd?
Stop hating!! Who ever said my opinion was fact dumb ass!! I listed a stack with tren like results with minimal sides and he’s crying about panic attacks. Smoke some ganja man!
 
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Matthersby

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have you ever considered substantiating anything you say? Or do you really just expect everyone to accept your opinion as fact?
It should look like this to you:
IMG_0921.JPG

Saves a lot of time.
 

CroLifter

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Ok i have 2 quick questions.

1. Does injecting smaller volumes of tren more often lead to less likelyhood of tren cough or it doesnt matter? Say 0.5ml vs 0.15ml?

2. Has anyone ever injected tren a/e/parabolan subQ? I am going to do 0.25ml of test e subQ 2x per week from now on (did glutes and quads so far but this small of a volume allows subq injects).
We are talking like 0.15ml a shot, so volume wouldn't be a problem.
Also, in theory it should help with cough, right? Since there is no risk of hitting a vein.
 

Jeremyk1

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Ok i have 2 quick questions.

1. Does injecting smaller volumes of tren more often lead to less likelyhood of tren cough or it doesnt matter? Say 0.5ml vs 0.15ml?

2. Has anyone ever injected tren a/e/parabolan subQ? I am going to do 0.25ml of test e subQ 2x per week from now on (did glutes and quads so far but this small of a volume allows subq injects).
We are talking like 0.15ml a shot, so volume wouldn't be a problem.
Also, in theory it should help with cough, right? Since there is no risk of hitting a vein.
From what I’ve heard, the tren cough tends to come from having a certain amount hitting your system too quickly. Hitting a vein can make it worse, for example. SubQ could help, depositing it in fat could slow the release, in theory.
 

Jeremyk1

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Ok i have 2 quick questions.

1. Does injecting smaller volumes of tren more often lead to less likelyhood of tren cough or it doesnt matter? Say 0.5ml vs 0.15ml?

2. Has anyone ever injected tren a/e/parabolan subQ? I am going to do 0.25ml of test e subQ 2x per week from now on (did glutes and quads so far but this small of a volume allows subq injects).
We are talking like 0.15ml a shot, so volume wouldn't be a problem.
Also, in theory it should help with cough, right? Since there is no risk of hitting a vein.
From what I’ve heard, the tren cough tends to come from having a certain amount hitting your system too quickly. Hitting a vein can make it worse, for example. SubQ could help, depositing it in fat could slow the release, in theory.
 

Jeremyk1

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Ok i have 2 quick questions.

1. Does injecting smaller volumes of tren more often lead to less likelyhood of tren cough or it doesnt matter? Say 0.5ml vs 0.15ml?

2. Has anyone ever injected tren a/e/parabolan subQ? I am going to do 0.25ml of test e subQ 2x per week from now on (did glutes and quads so far but this small of a volume allows subq injects).
We are talking like 0.15ml a shot, so volume wouldn't be a problem.
Also, in theory it should help with cough, right? Since there is no risk of hitting a vein.
From what I’ve heard, the tren cough tends to come from having a certain amount hitting your system too quickly. Hitting a vein can make it worse, for example. SubQ could help, depositing it in fat could slow the release, in theory.
 

Jeremyk1

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Ok i have 2 quick questions.

1. Does injecting smaller volumes of tren more often lead to less likelyhood of tren cough or it doesnt matter? Say 0.5ml vs 0.15ml?

2. Has anyone ever injected tren a/e/parabolan subQ? I am going to do 0.25ml of test e subQ 2x per week from now on (did glutes and quads so far but this small of a volume allows subq injects).
We are talking like 0.15ml a shot, so volume wouldn't be a problem.
Also, in theory it should help with cough, right? Since there is no risk of hitting a vein.
From what I’ve heard, the tren cough tends to come from having a certain amount hitting your system too quickly. Hitting a vein can make it worse, for example. SubQ could help, depositing it in fat could slow the release, in theory.
 

Jeremyk1

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Ok i have 2 quick questions.

1. Does injecting smaller volumes of tren more often lead to less likelyhood of tren cough or it doesnt matter? Say 0.5ml vs 0.15ml?

2. Has anyone ever injected tren a/e/parabolan subQ? I am going to do 0.25ml of test e subQ 2x per week from now on (did glutes and quads so far but this small of a volume allows subq injects).
We are talking like 0.15ml a shot, so volume wouldn't be a problem.
Also, in theory it should help with cough, right? Since there is no risk of hitting a vein.
From what I’ve heard, the tren cough tends to come from having a certain amount hitting your system too quickly. Hitting a vein can make it worse, for example. SubQ could help, depositing it in fat could slow the release, in theory.
 

Jeremyk1

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It should look like this to you:
View attachment 183919
Saves a lot of time.
I know I should, but it’s a little like reality TV. I know there’s no point, but I keep watching thinking “there’s no way this could get dumber.” But it does. Same thing here. I thought he couldn’t get worse, but he’s dead set on proving me wrong.
 

Jeremyk1

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It should look like this to you:
View attachment 183919
Saves a lot of time.
I know I should, but it’s a little like reality TV. I know there’s no point, but I keep watching thinking “there’s no way this could get dumber.” But it does. Same thing here. I thought he couldn’t get worse, but he’s dead set on proving me wrong.
 

Jeremyk1

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It should look like this to you:
View attachment 183919
Saves a lot of time.
I know I should, but it’s a little like reality TV. I know there’s no point, but I keep watching thinking “there’s no way this could get dumber.” But it does. Same thing here. I thought he couldn’t get worse, but he’s dead set on proving me wrong.
 

Jeremyk1

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I know it was the point and a stupid point at that!! Why is it so bad to say that’s absurd?
Stop hating!! Who ever said my opinion was fact dumb ass!! I listed a stack with tren like results with minimal sides and he’s crying about panic attacks. Smoke some ganja man!
It’s bad to say it’s absurd, because he showed studies which said otherwise. You did not. No one has said your opinion is fact, trust me, we all know better. The issue I have, is that you state your opinion as if it’s fact.
 

CroLifter

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@Jeremyk1 takes a lot of time for the post to appear sometimes, you dont have to click again and again. I just refresh the page and its there.
 
ItalOne

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It’s bad to say it’s absurd, because he showed studies which said otherwise. You did not. No one has said your opinion is fact, trust me, we all know better. The issue I have, is that you state your opinion as if it’s fact.
Lol rat studies of tren don’t correlate with humans. It’s ok to dream though. I don’t need to prove anything, this is common knowledge.
 
ItalOne

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I’m going to go out on a limb here. I think testosterone is safer then trenbolone. There I said it. Lmao 😂
 

CroLifter

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Guys, lets not fight over here. I only presented the stuides so we can have a look at them. I am sceptical too. But what else do we have other than studies and scientific investigation. So far it seems that:

-trenbolone at dose of 2mg/kg in rats (who are mammals obviously) is less damaging to the heart and prostate than testosterone (note that it doesnt say it is safer overall, it only says it is safer for the heart and the prostate). Unless you want to dispute the fact that scientists measured less cardiac fibrosis(thickening) in rats who were given trenbolone

-trenbolone causes increased expression of a certain enzyme which contributes to dementia and alzheimer, it seems that testosterone does not. We know that testosterone has neuroprotective effects which mostly stem from its ability to aromatize within the brain. However, supraphysiological testosterone given to old men did impair verbal memory and some other mental markers https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/11/4107/2597994

Not everything is so black and white. Lets keeep personal bias out of here.

also this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26850730 <--- pathological cardiac hypertrophy induced by supraphysiological doses of testosterone. Remember, we arent talking about replacement doses which put t levels within the natural range. We know that healthy levels of testosterone have cardioprotective effects.
It would be logical to assume that trenbolone, being an anabolic androgenic steroid also causes cardiac hypertrophy in dose and time dependent manner. How much compared to testosterone? Well, we dont know that, we only have rat studies.

@ItalOne common knowledge was that planet Earth is flat. Also, people believed there were no other galaxies other than milky way mere 100 years ago before Edwin Hubble disproved that. "Common knowledge" doesnt mean a lot in this area as there are no dedicated human studies comparing cardiac effects of bodybuilding doses of testosterone and trenbolone.

For the record, i am in favour of testosterone. But i cant turn a blind eye on scientific studies.

Edit: Human equivalent dose for a 220lb man would be 226.8 mg/per week (rats were given 2 mg/kg per day).
 
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Renew1

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Guys, lets not fight over here. I only presented the stuides so we can have a look at them. I am sceptical too. But what else do we have other than studies and scientific investigation. So far it seems that:

-trenbolone at dose of 2mg/kg in rats (who are mammals obviously) is less damaging to the heart and prostate than testosterone (note that it doesnt say it is safer overall, it only says it is safer for the heart and the prostate). Unless you want to dispute the fact that scientists measured less cardiac fibrosis(thickening) in rats who were given trenbolone

-trenbolone causes increased expression of a certain enzyme which contributes to dementia and alzheimer, it seems that testosterone does not. We know that testosterone has neuroprotective effects which mostly stem from its ability to aromatize within the brain. However, supraphysiological testosterone given to old men did impair verbal memory and some other mental markers https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/11/4107/2597994

Not everything is so black and white. Lets keeep personal bias out of here.

also this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26850730 <--- pathological cardiac hypertrophy induced by supraphysiological doses of testosterone. Remember, we arent talking about replacement doses which put t levels within the natural range. We know that healthy levels of testosterone have cardioprotective effects.
It would be logical to assume that trenbolone, being an anabolic androgenic steroid also causes cardiac hypertrophy in dose dependent manner. How much compared to testosterone? Well, we dont know that, we only have rat studies.

@ItalOne common knowledge was that earth is flat. Also, people believed there were no other galaxies other than milky way mere 100 years ago before Edwin Hubble disproved that. "Common knowledge" doesnt mean a lot in this area as there are no dedicated human studies comparing cardiac effects of bodybuilding doses of testosterone and trenbolone.

For the record, i am in favour of testosterone. But i cant turn a blind eye on scientific studies.
The earth is flat. That's why you're not constantly walking downhill.
 

CroLifter

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Lets hope that after these 4-5 weeks of tren i am still able to follow this type of conversation.
 
Carnivorecon

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I completely agree w everytbung the OP said and think tren is garbage and the white matrer in the brain is enough for me to say f that crap, let alone what ive heard from cattle farmers! The stories, oh lordie.

Anyways, i would highly consider test and *proviron for your strength stack as you could play w dosages for lifiting day/ pwo and all that as well as proviron being Good for suppressed hpta! Toss in a little t3 and some low dose cialis for a good pump 24/7 and i think you'd love the recomp and provirion also makes my mood great similar* to dbol unlike mast which makes me on edge once im "on", which blows goats. Just my 2c.

Best of luck and let us know what you decide.
Can you elaborate on the hpta benefits please, or anyone else, thanks.
Apologies if its already posted but i couldn't see anything
 

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