Coming Clean

[WrkoutWarrior]

So what I’m thinking about it? Everyone does it eventually. Think I might wanna have a kid with my ole lady. Could be crazy talk, but I like to think about it here and there haha...

25 now, hover around 225-230 these days. Been on a good few years now just blasting and cruising. Very minimal chem use to say at all(mini blasts), but never the less I wanna come off. I know I know, spare me the talk. I had a different mindset when I started this journey.
I planned on using the normal Clomid/Nolva with HCG and letro on the side just in case.

What extra can I use? How much would you run if you were me being on for as long as I have?

Also I’m looking into as much new breakthrough material or even tried and trues of the herbal natural world for example ashwghanda.

What have you come across that works for you that you always throw in your PCT stack new or old products that are still available? Or new breakthrough supps that you have read on?

Any info or criticism helps!

God bless

 

[BeardedBreast]

HCG!

 

[BBiceps]

Start HCG and check your sperm count and see where it’s at, hopefully you do have some sperm alive and don’t have come completely off, if not, come off everything and start Clomid. That’s what I had to do.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

I wouldn't use an AI when doing PCT. It can cause negative feedback on the HPTA. Clomid/Nolva and HCG are a good combo, go with that.

 

[KvanH]

I wouldn't use an AI when doing PCT. It can cause negative feedback on the HPTA. Clomid/Nolva and HCG are a good combo, go with that.

I wouldn't use an AI either, since T and teherefore E will be low as is (and he said having it just in case). But how do you mean AI causing a negative feedback? It should do the opposite.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

I wouldn't use an AI either, since T and teherefore E will be low as is (and he said having it just in case). But how do you mean AI causing a negative feedback? It should do the opposite.

I don't remember where I heard this, so I can't provide a source unless I dig through all my steroid manuals and articles and etc, but, there was a big thing about not taking AIs during PCT because it causes problems of some manner. It has something to do with either preventing testosterone production from restarting, having some kind of negative feedback on the HPTA axis, or something along those lines.

This is a pretty decent explanation I found just searching Google:

https://forums.t-nation.com/t/ai-during-pct-question/206136/2

 

[KvanH]

I don't remember where I heard this, so I can't provide a source unless I dig through all my steroid manuals and articles and etc, but, there was a big thing about not taking AIs during PCT because it causes problems of some manner. It has something to do with either preventing testosterone production from restarting, having some kind of negative feedback on the HPTA axis, or something along those lines.

This is a pretty decent explanation I found just searching Google:

https://forums.t-nation.com/t/ai-during-pct-question/206136/2

First on a general note; you don't allways have to try and find a source. Well delivered explanation is plenty. If we then disagree and see the need, we can go digging for sources.

For the matter at hand; I don't know if the thing you mention is somewhere down the posts of the forum thread you linked, but the first few posts didn't say anything about AI's negative feedback to the hpta.

This is my understanding and expalantion:
SERM's occupy the E receptros in the brain (among other areas in the body) and thus makes the body think there's no E circulating and thus the brain tells the testes to produce more T that can be aromarized to E. Now the same effect could be achieved with an AI. Slam the E levels to the ground so there is no E circulatind and no E binding to E receptors in the brain and so the same signaling to produce T will happen.

On a practical level doing it with AI's would be horrible obviously and could be difficult to get the amount of E so low that no to very little E would be binding to receptors in the brain, even with something as harsh as Letro.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

First on a general note; you don't allways have to try and find a source. Well delivered explanation is plenty. If we then disagree and see the need, we can go digging for sources.

For the matter at hand; I don't know if the thing you mention is somewhere down the posts of the forum thread you linked, but the first few posts didn't say anything about AI's negative feefback to the hpta.

This is my understanding and expalantion:
SERM's occupy the E receptros in the brain (among other areas in the body) and thus makes the body think there's no E circulating and thus the brain tells the testes to produce more T that can be aromarized to E. Now the same effect could be achieved with an AI. Slam the E levels to the ground so there is no E circulatind and no E binding to E receptors in the brain and so the same signaling to produce T will happen.

On a practical level doing it with AI's would be horrible obviously and could be difficult to get the amount of E so low that no to very little E would be binding to receptors in the brain, even with something as harsh as Letro.

Sounds about right.

 

[Whisky]

OP, there are some tried and tested restart protocols and many stories of people successfully restarting after coming off...... it does take time though (like could easily be a year plus before you hit wherever your peak natural levels are going to be)

the restarts tend to all use high doses of hcg and clomid at the very least. Some do use an ai in the early phase (with hcg)

dean st mart is a smart guy - worth looking at his stuff around this. Dr Scally has one of the most famous restart protocols out there but some people think he’s just a bro science guy

personally based on what I’ve seen I would run something like 2,500 iu hcg eod for 2 weeks, then 50mg clomid Ed and 20mg nolva for 6 weeks (would probably taper the clomid down for last couple of weeks)

 

[WrkoutWarrior]

OP, there are some tried and tested restart protocols and many stories of people successfully restarting after coming off...... it does take time though (like could easily be a year plus before you hit wherever your peak natural levels are going to be)

the restarts tend to all use high doses of hcg and clomid at the very least. Some do use an ai in the early phase (with hcg)

dean st mart is a smart guy - worth looking at his stuff around this. Dr Scally has one of the most famous restart protocols out there but some people think he’s just a bro science guy

personally based on what I’ve seen I would run something like 2,500 iu hcg eod for 2 weeks, then 50mg clomid Ed and 20mg nolva for 6 weeks (would probably taper the clomid down for last couple of weeks)

I’m aware of the lengthy process this will be to get back to somewhat normal. Don’t quote me on this but as far as damage to the HPTA from what I understand it occurs when the influx of hormones from coming off to getting on repeatedly like most people do, but I took the plunge into the dark side full on without a single break. Bloods twice to three times a year and blood donations twice a year since I started all of this.
I just got my bloods in yesterday.
Still on a weekly trt dose on Sundays.
Test is at a whopping 16pg/d
and Estro is at 4pg/d
Everything else is spot on.

I’ll add them to my reading list cause it seems like that all I do now lol.

Recommendation as follows
Week 1-2:
HCG 2500iu M/W/F
Week 3
Clomid 100mg ED
Nolva 40mg ED
Week 4-8
Clomid 50mg ED
Nolva 20mg ED

Natty Supps
Week 1-8:
BLR Rebirth
Chemix Natabolic
MK677
DIM

Know any supps for hormonal homeostasis?

 

[KvanH]

I’m aware of the lengthy process this will be to get back to somewhat normal. Don’t quote me on this but as far as damage to the HPTA from what I understand it occurs when the influx of hormones from coming off to getting on repeatedly like most people do, but I took the plunge into the dark side full on without a single break. Bloods twice to three times a year and blood donations twice a year since I started all of this.
I just got my bloods in yesterday.
Still on a weekly trt dose on Sundays.
Test is at a whopping 16pg/d
and Estro is at 4pg/d
Everything else is spot on.

I’ll add them to my reading list cause it seems like that all I do now lol.

Recommendation as follows
Week 1-2:
HCG 2500iu M/W/F
Week 3
Clomid 100mg ED
Nolva 40mg ED
Week 4-8
Clomid 50mg ED
Nolva 20mg ED

Natty Supps
Week 1-8:
BLR Rebirth
Chemix Natabolic
MK677
DIM

Know any supps for hormonal homeostasis?

Never seen anyone go 100 mg on Clomid. Seems unnecessary..

With Clomid and Nolva in the picture the Rebirth will be a waste of $ (not to knock the product, but in this particular situation).

Supps to add for hormonal improvement I can only thing stuff to lower shbg; Boron, Tongat Ali, Stinging nettle. I have no data on the effectiveness of those supps on shgb, but those seem to be the most popular for it.

 

[Whisky]

Never seen anyone go 100 mg on Clomid. Seems unnecessary..

With Clomid and Nolva in the picture the Rebirth will be a waste of $ (not to knock the product, but in this particular situation).

Supps to add for hormonal improvement I can only thing stuff to lower shbg; Boron, Tongat Ali, Stinging nettle. I have no data on the effectiveness of those supps on shgb, but those seem to be the most popular for it.

to be fair 100mg clomid for a week is oft used and appears in plenty of restarts so I think it’s a legit plan.

OP - I’d say what you have outlined is solid (just based on what I’ve read, I’ve not tried coming off myself.

the issue (as I understand it) isn’t so much coming off and on (in the context of recovering your own hormones), it’s the length of time you’ve been suppressed - basically your body hasn’t had to produce testosterone for a long time. Getting it to start again is harder the longer it’s been.

there are plenty of examples of people managing it though so hopefully you get there with no dramas.

photobiomodulation for your balls is the other thing I would do - it’s clinically proven to increase testosterone and it’s mechanism to do so would likely be beneficial in this situation.

 

[KvanH]

to be fair 100mg clomid for a week is oft used and appears in plenty of restarts so I think it’s a legit plan.

Ok. I would assume 50 mg to saturate the ER's in the brain well enough especially with the 40 mg Nolva in there too and the sides to be worse on 100 mg than 50 mg, but if it has been done with success, no argument from me.

OP - I’d say what you have outlined is solid (just based on what I’ve read, I’ve not tried coming off myself.

the issue (as I understand it) isn’t so much coming off and on (in the context of recovering your own hormones), it’s the length of time you’ve been suppressed - basically your body hasn’t had to produce testosterone for a long time. Getting it to start again is harder the longer it’s been.

This is how I've thought it to be too.

there are plenty of examples of people managing it though so hopefully you get there with no dramas.

I agree and have heard it been done succesfully too. So go for it OP and I wish you luck.

photobiomodulation for your balls is the other thing I would do - it’s clinically proven to increase testosterone and it’s mechanism to do so would likely be beneficial in this situation.

 

[Mathb33]

@KvanH hes star scream... remember the guy that got banned? Of course he’s got to find a source for everything. He was banned on 3 other forums so he had to come back here

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

I wouldn't use an AI when doing PCT. It can cause negative feedback on the HPTA. Clomid/Nolva and HCG are a good combo, go with that.

I wouldn't use an AI either, since T and teherefore E will be low as is (and he said having it just in case). But how do you mean AI causing a negative feedback? It should do the opposite.

actually i 100% disagree. especially if HCG is part of recovery. there is a moment in PCT when the gears start to change. test output skyrockets in an attempt to normalize the epi-test ratio. (remember that estrogen essentially skyrockets as soon as androgen levels drop [though not from output].) natural fatties or endos along with HCG users can experience high amounts of aromatase and therefore may actually need an AI to thwart rebound gyno.. this is something I have to do when PCTing. PA and a few others suggest using an AI around the 2-3 week mark of PCT out to 6-8 weeks. its what i followed with out fail for nearly a decade of cycles. further, after several yrs of trt blast n cruze, i successfully restarted my HTPA with this exact program.

 

[KvanH]

@KvanH hes star scream... remember the guy that got banned? Of course he’s got to find a source for everything. He was banned on 3 other forums so he had to come back here

Who could forget SS we all came to love? But my projection is that he's StarScream's identical brother and they got separated from the birth. I'm just trying to tell him that studys for every post are not necessary. I have faith.

 

[KvanH]

actually i 100% disagree. especially if HCG is part of recovery. there is a moment in PCT when the gears start to change. test output skyrockets in an attempt to normalize the epi-test ratio. (remember that estrogen essentially skyrockets as soon as androgen levels drop [though not from output].) natural fatties or endos along with HCG users can experience high amounts of aromatase and therefore may actually need an AI to thwart rebound gyno.. this is something I have to do when PCTing. PA and a few others suggest using an AI around the 2-3 week mark of PCT out to 6-8 weeks. its what i followed with out fail for nearly a decade of cycles. further, after several yrs of trt blast n cruze, i successfully restarted my HTPA with this exact program.

Agreed hcg changes the situation a bit. And I have used and will use some gentle AI myself when coming off of the serm. Like weeks 3-6 if serm is used on weeks 1-4. My approach to AI use in pct is similar to other situations, use if needed, but not a constant to add like a serm is. My thinking is the recovering of E is just as important as T. My bloods have usually shown pretty good T - E balance on the 4th week of serm only pct.

My statement was a bit blunt as I was mainly grabbing on to the AI and negative feedback on hpta.

 

[WrkoutWarrior]

to be fair 100mg clomid for a week is oft used and appears in plenty of restarts so I think it’s a legit plan.

OP - I’d say what you have outlined is solid (just based on what I’ve read, I’ve not tried coming off myself.

the issue (as I understand it) isn’t so much coming off and on (in the context of recovering your own hormones), it’s the length of time you’ve been suppressed - basically your body hasn’t had to produce testosterone for a long time. Getting it to start again is harder the longer it’s been.

there are plenty of examples of people managing it though so hopefully you get there with no dramas.

photobiomodulation for your balls is the other thing I would do - it’s clinically proven to increase testosterone and it’s mechanism to do so would likely be beneficial in this situation.

Understood. I’m hoping everything goes over smoothly... I’m hoping to start as soon as I get all the goods I need.
I mean if Ronnie Coleman can do it, dammit so can I hahaha!

I haven’t heard of such treatment, are there clinics that do this?

 

[johnny412]

Who could forget SS we all came to love? But my projection is that he's StarScream's identical brother and they got separated from the birth. I'm just trying to tell him that studys for every post are not necessary. I have faith.

you would think that idiot would try and post a different style to hide his identity but he posts the EXACT SAME WAY smdh!!!

 

[Whisky]

Understood. I’m hoping everything goes over smoothly... I’m hoping to start as soon as I get all the goods I need.
I mean if Ronnie Coleman can do it, dammit so can I hahaha!

I haven’t heard of such treatment, are there clinics that do this?

there are but you can buy hand held devices (like the joove) to use at hone. You need to use it daily so that’s the only real way to do it

 

[KvanH]

there are but you can buy hand held devices (like the joove) to use at hone. You need to use it daily so that’s the only real way to do it

Have you found a way to utilize one in a sexual manner yet?

 

[Whisky]

Have you found a way to utilize one in a sexual manner yet?

I have a full light panel I stand in front of naked

that itself isn’t too bad but the fact it’s next to my front window and we don’t have curtains up probably makes it a big weird.....

 

[KvanH]

I have a full light panel I stand in front of naked

that itself isn’t too bad but the fact it’s next to my front window and we don’t have curtains up probably makes it a big weird.....

Might disturb some random bypassers, but somehow I believe your neighbors won't be easily surprised

 

[Whisky]

Might disturb some random bypassers, but somehow I believe your neighbors won't be easily surprised

honestly I think the naked red light stuff they.

they’d probably prefer me not to multitask and do my ozone rectal therapy at the same time but I’m a busy boy and combining the two makes sense

 

[thebigt]

honestly I think the naked red light stuff they.

they’d probably prefer me not to multitask and do my ozone rectal therapy at the same time but I’m a busy boy and combining the two makes sense

are you stealing lenny bruce's old routines, lol.

 

[Whisky]

are you stealing lenny bruce's old routines, lol.

lol, although I appreciate it may appear to be a comedic comment everything I post is worryingly true I brought an ozone machine last year and ozone therapy at home can only really be done via rectal insertion - basically I fill a medical grade bag with ozone and then put a catheter up my ass before squeezing the contents of the bag into my rectum. It absorbs the ozone in around 15 seconds

it’s actually a legit thing

and yeah I do this in front of a window with no curtains which is about 3 metres from my neighbours driveway **** it, way I figure I’m in my own home and it’s my ass having something shoved up it so why they gonna complain

 

[thebigt]

lol, although I appreciate it may appear to be a comedic comment everything I post is worryingly true I brought an ozone machine last year and ozone therapy at home can only really be done via rectal insertion - basically I fill a medical grade bag with ozone and then put a catheter up my ass before squeezing the contents of the bag into my rectum. It absorbs the ozone in around 15 seconds

it’s actually a legit thing

and yeah I do this in front of a window with no curtains which is about 3 metres from my neighbours driveway **** it, way I figure I’m in my own home and it’s my ass having something shoved up it so why they gonna complain

here in the US the homeowners association would literally have your ass

 

[KvanH]

lol, although I appreciate it may appear to be a comedic comment everything I post is worryingly true I brought an ozone machine last year and ozone therapy at home can only really be done via rectal insertion - basically I fill a medical grade bag with ozone and then put a catheter up my ass before squeezing the contents of the bag into my rectum. It absorbs the ozone in around 15 seconds

it’s actually a legit thing

and yeah I do this in front of a window with no curtains which is about 3 metres from my neighbours driveway **** it, way I figure I’m in my own home and it’s my ass having something shoved up it so why they gonna complain

Thanks for proving me right on the previous post regarding your neighbors = )

You've had me Googling 2 weird things today: scarlet kiss and ozone to rectum.

 

[thebigt]

Thanks for proving me right on the previous post regarding your neighbors = )

You've had me Googling 2 weird things today: scarlet kiss and ozone to rectum.

is scarlet kiss same as red wings, lol.

 

[Whisky]

is scarlet kiss same as red wings, lol.

yes sir

 

[thebigt]

yes sir

i kinda figured that...my 2nd wife and i had a agreement, i eat her and then she blew me...i hated to pass on a great blowjob

 

[KvanH]

is scarlet kiss same as red wings, lol.

Both new terms for me. Here it's called running a red ligt.

 

[thebigt]

Both new terms for me. Here it's called running a red ligt.

sorry, but that's lame

 

[KvanH]

sorry, but that's lame

Well I didn't come up with it, so no worries.

 

[Jinsun]

So what I’m thinking about it? Everyone does it eventually. Think I might wanna have a kid with my ole lady. Could be crazy talk, but I like to think about it here and there haha...

25 now, hover around 225-230 these days. Been on a good few years now just blasting and cruising. Very minimal chem use to say at all(mini blasts), but never the less I wanna come off. I know I know, spare me the talk. I had a different mindset when I started this journey.
I planned on using the normal Clomid/Nolva with HCG and letro on the side just in case.

What extra can I use? How much would you run if you were me being on for as long as I have?

Also I’m looking into as much new breakthrough material or even tried and trues of the herbal natural world for example ashwghanda.

What have you come across that works for you that you always throw in your PCT stack new or old products that are still available? Or new breakthrough supps that you have read on?

Any info or criticism helps!

God bless

Getting off of HRT is a long and windy process. A couple weeks PCT is not going to do it at all.

If I remember this video went over the lengthy process of coming off HRT.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

it’s actually a legit thing

you look forward to it when you're on tren don't you? don't be shy. admit it.

 

[Whisky]

you look forward to it when you're on tren don't you? don't be shy. admit it.

I look forward to everything on tren bro

 

[KvanH]

I look forward to everything on tren bro

Everything with a butthole in the equation.

 

[Whisky]

Everything with a butthole in the equation.

all holes matter bro

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

lol, although I appreciate it may appear to be a comedic comment everything I post is worryingly true I brought an ozone machine last year and ozone therapy at home can only really be done via rectal insertion - basically I fill a medical grade bag with ozone and then put a catheter up my ass before squeezing the contents of the bag into my rectum. It absorbs the ozone in around 15 seconds

it’s actually a legit thing

and yeah I do this in front of a window with no curtains which is about 3 metres from my neighbours driveway **** it, way I figure I’m in my own home and it’s my ass having something shoved up it so why they gonna complain

Wait, you stick ozone up your ass?

 

[Whisky]

Wait, you stick ozone up your ass?

yes

you sure as hell don’t want to take that orally

 

[Jinsun]

yes

you sure as hell don’t want to take that orally

What are the benefits of doing this?

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

yes

you sure as hell don’t want to take that orally

This sounds extremely weird.

You know you can just buy Ozone Light bulbs that are made from titanium dioxide and kill the room of germs and fill it with ozone. You can also buy ozone generators.

Air Purifying Light Bulbs Destroy Household Odors and Smoke on Contact

AIRPURELite is an amazing technological breakthrough!

www.beyondbeds.com

Fact sheets - Ozone generators

Ozone generators are being promoted as an effective method to clean indoor air pollution and odours. However ozone is a lung irritant that can cause adverse health effects.

www.health.nsw.gov.au

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

actually i 100% disagree. especially if HCG is part of recovery. there is a moment in PCT when the gears start to change. test output skyrockets in an attempt to normalize the epi-test ratio. (remember that estrogen essentially skyrockets as soon as androgen levels drop [though not from output].) natural fatties or endos along with HCG users can experience high amounts of aromatase and therefore may actually need an AI to thwart rebound gyno.. this is something I have to do when PCTing. PA and a few others suggest using an AI around the 2-3 week mark of PCT out to 6-8 weeks. its what i followed with out fail for nearly a decade of cycles. further, after several yrs of trt blast n cruze, i successfully restarted my HTPA with this exact program.

I could be completely wrong. It's just one of those things I have stored in my brain from long ago. Don't use AIs during PCT. Why? I can't remember. I could honestly do a little digging if you guys wanted me too.

Anthony Roberts argued for using Aromasin with Nolvadex during PCT and I respect his opinion a lot.

https://thinksteroids.com/articles/aromasin-with-tamoxifen-during-post-cycle-therapy/

 

[Whisky]

This sounds extremely weird.

You know you can just buy Ozone Light bulbs that are made from titanium dioxide and kill the room of germs and fill it with ozone. You can also buy ozone generators.

Air Purifying Light Bulbs Destroy Household Odors and Smoke on Contact

AIRPURELite is an amazing technological breakthrough!

www.beyondbeds.com

Fact sheets - Ozone generators

Ozone generators are being promoted as an effective method to clean indoor air pollution and odours. However ozone is a lung irritant that can cause adverse health effects.

www.health.nsw.gov.au

Your missing what I mean by ozone therapy here bro. It’s been used for over 100 years and is pretty prevalent in Europe. Rectal isn’t the best administration route imo but I don’t have the willingness or equipment to take my blood out, mix with ozone and inject back in at home so sticking a tube in my ass is more convenient.

it was studied in Spain for covid and sars treatment and is offered in many wellbeing centres. It’s **** all to do with cleaning the air around you and whatever you do don’t breathe it in (it’ll **** your lungs if you are exposed to too much)

I have a medical grade ozone machine (same type used in wellness centres and medical grade oxygen. I wouldn’t do it without a proper set up.

I know you like a link so here’s a couple on it

Effect of Rectal Ozone (O3) in Severe COVID-19 Pneumonia: Preliminary Results

The aim of this study is to evaluate the effectiveness of rectal ozone (O[3] ) in COVID-19 patients with severe pneumonia admitted at Hospital Universitario Santa Cristina, Madrid. In a before-and-after study, four patients admitted with severe bilateral ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(PDF) Rectal administration and its application in ozonetherapy

PDF | The rectal administration of ozone is one of the oldest systemic and local forms of application. The biological effects of the Rectal... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net