Clomid standalone dosing (possibly with arimistane)

tyrub42 said:
I'm taking it experimentally because of the low cost and potential benefits (and the positive results I've had with anti-estrogen supplements in the past). The last bloodwork I had showed low test and high E2 but both within the 'normal' range, but I won't be getting bloodwork done after this, so I'll have to plan according to what should be expected. From everything I read online, tapering off gradually seems to work and I am dosing at about 25% of the average; however, there is very limited information on using clomid on a natty test-boosting cycle.

I searched quite a bit on it today, and people seem to be all over the map with their recommendations (and all of the discussion I found is in PCT forums, so not exactly the same situation). Some say to run an AI at the end of clomid, other say that prescription AIs can themselves cause a rebound effect. I'm pretty confused by all of it, and it seems like people are creating a lot of their own theories from personal experience instead of actual science. I wish there was more hard factual information on this. Maybe Kisaj or one of the posters who have tried it as a TRT alternative can chime in.

I can get an AI easily, but would rather not unless it is needed, as I'd rather not mess with another compound if I don't have to. I will be back in NY at the end of this run, though, so if I will need one, I'd like to pick it up before I go. Thanks for the post; sorry for the long-winded response!
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Was talking about the AI, not the clomid. LoL. The AI is what you have to be careful with because you don't want to completely crush your estrogen levels.

You can't really go by feel or a general dosing protocol because at the end of the day, you really wouldn't know unless you have bloodwork to look at. You can try full dosing E2D and after a week drop it down to half dosing E2D. You'll still be shooting in the dark though, unfortunately.
 
dynamo said:
Was talking about the AI, not the clomid. LoL. The AI is what you have to be careful with because you don't want to completely crush your estrogen levels.

You can't really go by feel or a general dosing protocol because at the end of the day, you really wouldn't know unless you have bloodwork to look at. You can try full dosing E2D and after a week drop it down to half dosing E2D. You'll still be shooting in the dark though, unfortunately.
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Oh ok, thanks for clarifying. I think I'll stick with the tapering plan, then. I'm doing E2D now at 25mg, so I'll switch to 12.5 E2D for 6 days and then E3D for 6 days to finish it off, and see how I feel.
 
Sss23 said:
So what's the consensus? You need an AI during/after clomid use or you can taper?
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Not sure if there will ever be an consensus, but in my case, the risks of running an AI without doing bloodwork first seem to outweigh the rewards. Assuming I taper off, I should slowly adjust to natural estrogen levels and natural test levels. If I get a little bloated for a week, so be it. I'll report my results here, so that everyone can use my experience to make their own decisions. I'll also keep trying to find info and update.
 
Here are some mock examples. The TRT doctors can't even get it this perfect, so this is just an example.

Clomid Solo
Week 1 Clomid ED, T = 1300, E = 30 (not bad)
Week 2 Clomid ED, T = 1250, E = 50 (ut oh)
Weed 3 Clomid ED, T = 1200, E = 70 (bad)
Week 4 Clomid ED, T = 1100, E = 100+ (you get the idea)
Week 5 Clomid END, T = 1000, E = 100+
Week 6 Clomid END, T = 700, E = 70
Week 7 Clomid END, T = 500, E = 50
Week 8 Clomid END, T = 300, E = 30
LH/FSH suppression (2-3 more months of recovery to baseline)

Clomid with Arimidex
Week 1 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1300, E = 15
Week 2 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1350, E = 30
Weed 3 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1400, E = 40
Week 4 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1500, E = 50+
Week 5 Clomid END, Arimidex EOD, T = 1300, E = 40
Week 6 Clomid END, Arimidex EOD, T = 1100, E = 30
Week 7 Clomid END, Arimidex EOD, T = 900, E = 20
Week 8 Clomid END, T = 700, E = 15
LH/FSH suppression avoidable but possible, easy to underestimate E.

Clomid with Aromasin
Week 1 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1300, E = 15
Week 2 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1300, E = 30
Weed 3 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1400, E = 30
Week 4 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1400, E = 40
Week 5 Clomid END, Aromasin E3D, T = 1200, E = 30
Week 6 Clomid END, Aromasin E3D, T = 1000, E = 30
Week 7 Clomid END, T = 700, E = 20
Week 8 Clomid END, T = 600, E = 15
No suppression, easy to kill off too much E though.

In a perfect world Arimidex is the best bang for your buck. Will raise test levels to the highest, will give you some E (some is beneficial, depends on the T to E ratio), keeps you in balance longer. If E goes too high you'll get suppressed and take longer to recover. If you're Dorian Yates, more E = more mass, if you're sensitive to E, more E = tits. Just a reminder all of these are relatively new when it comes to proven drugs and used to treat cancer patients.
 
DirtyWilly said:
Here are some mock examples. The TRT doctors can't even get it this perfect, so this is just an example.

Clomid Solo
Week 1 Clomid ED, T = 1300, E = 30 (not bad)
Week 2 Clomid ED, T = 1250, E = 50 (ut oh)
Weed 3 Clomid ED, T = 1200, E = 70 (bad)
Week 4 Clomid ED, T = 1100, E = 100+ (you get the idea)
Week 5 Clomid END, T = 1000, E = 100+
Week 6 Clomid END, T = 700, E = 70
Week 7 Clomid END, T = 500, E = 50
Week 8 Clomid END, T = 300, E = 30
LH/FSH suppression (2-3 more months of recovery to baseline)

Clomid with Arimidex
Week 1 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1300, E = 15
Week 2 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1350, E = 30
Weed 3 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1400, E = 40
Week 4 Clomid ED, Arimidex EOD, T = 1500, E = 50+
Week 5 Clomid END, Arimidex EOD, T = 1300, E = 40
Week 6 Clomid END, Arimidex EOD, T = 1100, E = 30
Week 7 Clomid END, Arimidex EOD, T = 900, E = 20
Week 8 Clomid END, T = 700, E = 15
LH/FSH suppression avoidable but possible, easy to underestimate E.

Clomid with Aromasin
Week 1 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1300, E = 15
Week 2 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1300, E = 30
Weed 3 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1400, E = 30
Week 4 Clomid ED, Aromasin E3D, T = 1400, E = 40
Week 5 Clomid END, Aromasin E3D, T = 1200, E = 30
Week 6 Clomid END, Aromasin E3D, T = 1000, E = 30
Week 7 Clomid END, T = 700, E = 20
Week 8 Clomid END, T = 600, E = 15
No suppression, easy to kill off too much E though.

In a perfect world Arimidex is the best bang for your buck. Will raise test levels to the highest, will give you some E (some is beneficial, depends on the T to E ratio), keeps you in balance longer. If E goes too high you'll get suppressed and take longer to recover. If you're Dorian Yates, more E = more mass, if you're sensitive to E, more E = tits. Just a reminder all of these are relatively new when it comes to proven drugs and used to treat cancer patients.
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Interesting, thanks! Those mock examples are all for PCT after a test cycle, right?
 
tyrub42 said:
Interesting, thanks! Those mock examples are all for PCT after a test cycle, right?
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No, surprisingly Clomid and the addition of Arimidex or Aromasin can raise your levels up to 1300+ in some. Most of the time you only see it raise men with low T to 600-800, but in someone with normal levels it can push it pretty high. Age is probably the biggest factor, and the clinical stuff seems mixed in how those with normal levels respond, but just from seeing members on here it's possible to get that high. You're also running your testes at 200% to get those numbers so you might take a few months off the warranty.
 
DirtyWilly said:
No, surprisingly Clomid and the addition of Arimidex or Aromasin can raise your levels up to 1300+ in some. Most of the time you only see it raise men with low T to 600-800, but in someone with normal levels it can push it pretty high. Age is probably the biggest factor, and the clinical stuff seems mixed in how those with normal levels respond, but just from seeing members on here it's possible to get that high. You're also running your testes at 200% to get those numbers so you might take a few months off the warranty.
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Haha, I don't love the sound of that (nicely phrased, though, made me lol).

If those are natty cycles, though, why would the clomid solo cycle make test steadily decrease rather than increase?
 
tyrub42 said:
Haha, I don't love the sound of that (nicely phrased, though, made me lol).

If those are natty cycles, though, why would the clomid solo cycle make test steadily decrease rather than increase?
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Just a mock example, I'm sure someone with experience tuning Clomid can chime in more, but as the the T increases so does the E. Eventually some of the real E will overtake some of the Clomid fake E barrier causing LH/FSH to go down.
 
DirtyWilly said:
Just a mock example, I'm sure someone with experience tuning Clomid can chime in more, but as the the T increases so does the E. Eventually some of the real E will overtake some of the Clomid fake E barrier causing LH/FSH to go down.
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I see, thanks for clarifying! I have heard that it will raise estrogen, but will improve the overall ratio (meaning that if it doubles test, it won't double estrogen, but maybe increase it by a smaller percentage). Any idea if there's any truth to that?
 
tyrub42 said:
I see, thanks for clarifying! I have heard that it will raise estrogen, but will improve the overall ratio (meaning that if it doubles test, it won't double estrogen, but maybe increase it by a smaller percentage). Any idea if there's any truth to that?
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Estrogen rises along with test because your body wants to stay at a certain T:E ratio. The ratio shouldn't really be affected much as both will rise accordingly. To improve the ratio, you will need to use an AI. The clomid blocks estrogen from binding at certain receptor sites but does not inhibit aromatase. Aromatase is what will affect your estrogen levels.
 
Ok I'm at the tail end of my full dosing (5 more days). So far there has definitely been some strength and muscle gains, but also a massive increase in appetite, and some fat gain. I'm up about 4lbs as of this morning, due most likely to increased appetite. Of the 4, I feel like 2 are likely just glycogen and bloat, but I would guess that half of it is real weight. Of that, it's probably half muscle and half fat, which makes sense with my increased food intake. Strength has gone up a bit as my weight and food intake increased.

Looking into AIs, most also cause E rebound, and the only thing that would make some sense comi off low-dose clomid would be to take maybe a single dose of aromasin after my last clomid dose. Since that has its own risks, and any Estrogen rebound wouldn't be insane after tapering, I think I'll just continue my plan of tapering off (12.5 EOD for two doses, then E3D for two doses, then done).

There was definitely some emotional instability for the first week or two, becoming super depressed for no reason for a few hours, etc. It seemed to pass, but recently I do feel a bit more aggressive (seems like my test has increased from all of these symptoms), though not terribly hard for an adult to handle or control.

Unfortunately I won't be able to remark on how I do physically when I come off, as I will be on vacation back to the US starting tomorrow and plan on gaining 5-10 lbs of well-earned fat from gorging myself on pizza, bagels, Mexican food, and so much craft beer. I'll update again in a few days
 
tyrub42 said:
Ok I'm at the tail end of my full dosing (5 more days). So far there has definitely been some strength and muscle gains, but also a massive increase in appetite, and some fat gain. I'm up about 4lbs as of this morning, due most likely to increased appetite. Of the 4, I feel like 2 are likely just glycogen and bloat, but I would guess that half of it is real weight. Of that, it's probably half muscle and half fat, which makes sense with my increased food intake. Strength has gone up a bit as my weight and food intake increased.

Looking into AIs, most also cause E rebound, and the only thing that would make some sense comi off low-dose clomid would be to take maybe a single dose of aromasin after my last clomid dose. Since that has its own risks, and any Estrogen rebound wouldn't be insane after tapering, I think I'll just continue my plan of tapering off (12.5 EOD for two doses, then E3D for two doses, then done).

There was definitely some emotional instability for the first week or two, becoming super depressed for no reason for a few hours, etc. It seemed to pass, but recently I do feel a bit more aggressive (seems like my test has increased from all of these symptoms), though not terribly hard for an adult to handle or control.

Unfortunately I won't be able to remark on how I do physically when I come off, as I will be on vacation back to the US starting tomorrow and plan on gaining 5-10 lbs of well-earned fat from gorging myself on pizza, bagels, Mexican food, and so much craft beer. I'll update again in a few days
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Suicidal AIs do not cause rebound, because they are suicidal and permanently deactivates the aromatase enzyme. Exemestane would be my choice.
 
dynamo said:
Suicidal AIs do not cause rebound, because they are suicidal and permanently deactivates the aromatase enzyme. Exemestane would be my choice.
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I know, that's why I mentioned a single dose of aromasin as the only AI option that made sense (aromasin is the brand name of exemestane).

I was really on the fence about the aromasin, because 1 dose is super effective at reducing E but likely wouldn't crush it...but I just figured since I was on the fence about it, it's better not to add another chem to this experiment. Too late now, as I fly tomorrow morning and it's already 11PM here. Doubt I'll have any serious rebound, but I will keep an eye out for signs (again, will be hard on this one, as I will also be pigging out and drinking by the pool instead of my usual routine of constantly working out and doing jiu jitsu...so I'll be bloated af regardless lol). Hopefully everything ends smoothly. Thanks for your replies!
 
At this point I can safely say that tapering worked fine and there were no physical or psychological signs of estrogen rebound. I was hoping the Clomid would do more for me as a standalone, but at least it was cheap and ended smoothly.
 
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