Clomid needed post- T-1 Pro cycle?
- Thread starter dejansen
- Start date
YellowJacket
Banned
A 40 day cycle is long enough to shut you down, ZMA wont do the job. You'll need Ergopharms 6-oxo. found Invalid Link Removed, or you can go with liquid clomid, found Invalid Link Removed
YellowJacket
Banned
I prefer clomid, cheaper and more potent.
YellowJacket
Banned
xXx said:
It comes with a 50mL dropper, so its easy to measure and yes, you would dose it just like tabs
Frost said:
Not really 'perfer' it, I always have clomid it seems like, its like apples & oranges to me. I generally only use Novla. in case of gyno, and Im not prone to gyno, so I just have a hundred or so on hand in case, Bobo posted a great study on why you should take you clomid.....
Frost
New member
YellowJacket said:
the dropper or measurement doesnt bother me, i just steal equipment from my organic lab.
when you say you use nolva incase of gyno, what do you mean?
Do you start to take it when you see gyno beginning to appear? would you take it durring your cycle to prevent that as well as post cycle?
sage
Well-known member
Frost said:
ha, you get your from organic labatories huh...i get mine (just two beakers, so it aint a true fellony) from a chemitry lab which my old roommate is a TA for.
the use of nolva wouldnt eliminate a case of gyno if you have it. what it does do however, is prevent gyno if you are known to have a minor case of it so i find it useful to start the use of nolvadex the last couple of days of your actual cycle (i also feel the same way for any other post cycle supplementation, to make a smoother transition from the unnatural testoterone production, back to getting your goods back) so novla is great (and could be had for cheap) for knocking away those estrogens and taking a minor minor case of gyno away. Sage
dejansen
New member
Follow-up question that I don't see answered in the FAQ section... Usually a person starts Clomid 3 weeks after most common AS cycles but what about after a T-1 Pro cycle? Should Clomid therapy begin immediately after the four week cycle? If not, how many weeks after the cycle ends?
Also, has anyone heard of anyone experiencing gyno on prohormones? I don't have Nolva on hand. Am I taking a risk? I just started T1-Pro 4ml/day.
Thanks.
Also, has anyone heard of anyone experiencing gyno on prohormones? I don't have Nolva on hand. Am I taking a risk? I just started T1-Pro 4ml/day.
Thanks.
RVEXLER
New member
dejansen said:
The three week delay during a typical AAS cycle is based on the fact that most steriods have esters attached which keep them active in the body for several weeks after the last dose is taken. And since they are still active, they are still shutting down your natural test production. Hence, it makes sense to wait on taking clomid until the majority of the AAS has cleared from your system.
Most pro-hormones are ester-less which means that they clear from your system in several hours. Consequently, one day after you stop taking t1-pro, you can start taking Clomid.
As far as gyno goes, one of the common myths is that pro-hormones cannot give you gyno. They can. If you are experiencing nipple tenderness/itchiness or can feel any growth behind the nipple, that could be gyno. Start taking nolva immediately. Personally, 4-AD transdermally and injected give me gyno symptoms (and 4-ad doesn't aromatize, but some does convert to test which does) so I always have nolvadex on hand and take it at the the first signs.
As far as ZMA, it should not be considered as a post-cycle recovery aid. When your body is deficient in zinc (which is the case in virtually every active person) then your natural test production is inhibited. So, ZMA should be taken during and after cycles.
Frost
New member
RVEXLER said:
when you say, at the first signs of gyno you start taking it, would you continue your cycle if you were in the middle of it when this happened, and just take novla throughout the rest of your cycle?
And if this is the case, why don't you just take novla throughout your whole cycle?
THx
RVEXLER
New member
Frost said:
I take nolvadex during and after my cycles. As far as discontinuing the pro-hormone or AAS, it depends on how severe the symptoms are. I recently made test prop from syno and was using it with fina. No matter how much nolva I was taking (and I went up to 80 mg a day) and I was also taking arimidex, the symptoms wouldn't go away. So, I stopped taking the prop.
RVEXLER
New member
Found a study you might be looking for. It does show that nolva will lower arimidex levels in the blood when they are taken together, but that the reduction is not sufficient to diminish arimidex's anti-aromitization activity.
1: Br J Cancer 2001 Aug 3;85(3):317-24 Related Articles, Links
Pharmacokinetics of anastrozole and tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the 'Arimidex and tamoxifen alone or in combination' (ATAC) trial.
ATAC Trialists' Group.
CRC and UCL Cancer Trials Centre, University College London, Stephenson House, 158-160 N Gower Street, London, NW1 2ND, UK.
The ATAC trial evaluates in a randomized, double-blind design, Arimidextrade mark (anastrozole) alone or in combination with tamoxifen, relative to tamoxifen alone as 5-year adjuvant treatment in postmenopausal women with early breast cancer. Patients included in the pharmacokinetic (PK) sub-protocol had been in ATAC for > or =3 months, taking their medication in the morning and were 100% compliant for the preceding 14 days. Blood samples were collected 24 +/- 4 h after last dose. Trough (C(min)) plasma concentrations of anastrozole, tamoxifen and desmethyltamoxifen (DMT) were measured by validated methods. The PK results were based on a total of 347 patients (131 anastrozole (1 mg o.d.), 111 tamoxifen (20 mg o.d.), 105 anastrozole and tamoxifen (1 and 20 mg o.d. respectively)). The geometric mean steady-state trough plasma concentrations of tamoxifen and DMT were statistically equivalent in patients receiving tamoxifen alone or in combination with anastrozole: geometric mean tamoxifen = 94.8 ng ml(-1)and 95.3 ng ml(-1)in tamoxifen alone and combination groups, respectively; geometric mean DMT = 265.1 and 277.6 ng ml(-1)in the tamoxifen and anastrozole and tamoxifen groups, respectively. The geometric mean anastrozole levels were 27% lower (90% Cl 20-33%;P< 0.001) in the presence of tamoxifen than with anastrozole alone. Baseline plasma oestradiol levels were not obtained in the PK sub-protocol, however, such information was available from a similar ATAC sub-protocol, which evaluated bone mineral density. Mean oestradiol levels were 21.3, 19.3, and 21.6 pmol l(-1)prior to treatment and 3.7, 20.9 and 3.6 pmol l(-1)after 3 months in the anastrozole, tamoxifen, and combination groups, respectively (n = 167). On-treatment values were below the detection limit (3 pmol l(-1)) in 43.6 and 38.5% of the anastrozole alone and anastrozole in combination with tamoxifen groups, respectively. As a result of (a) the lack of effect of anastrozole on tamoxifen and DMT levels and (b) the observed fall in blood anastrozole levels having no significant effect on oestradiol suppression by anastrozole, we conclude that the observed reduction in anastrozole levels by tamoxifen is unlikely to be of clinical significance when anastrozole and tamoxifen are administered together. Copyright 2001 Cancer Research Campaign
1: Br J Cancer 2001 Aug 3;85(3):317-24 Related Articles, Links
Pharmacokinetics of anastrozole and tamoxifen alone, and in combination, during adjuvant endocrine therapy for early breast cancer in postmenopausal women: a sub-protocol of the 'Arimidex and tamoxifen alone or in combination' (ATAC) trial.
ATAC Trialists' Group.
CRC and UCL Cancer Trials Centre, University College London, Stephenson House, 158-160 N Gower Street, London, NW1 2ND, UK.
The ATAC trial evaluates in a randomized, double-blind design, Arimidextrade mark (anastrozole) alone or in combination with tamoxifen, relative to tamoxifen alone as 5-year adjuvant treatment in postmenopausal women with early breast cancer. Patients included in the pharmacokinetic (PK) sub-protocol had been in ATAC for > or =3 months, taking their medication in the morning and were 100% compliant for the preceding 14 days. Blood samples were collected 24 +/- 4 h after last dose. Trough (C(min)) plasma concentrations of anastrozole, tamoxifen and desmethyltamoxifen (DMT) were measured by validated methods. The PK results were based on a total of 347 patients (131 anastrozole (1 mg o.d.), 111 tamoxifen (20 mg o.d.), 105 anastrozole and tamoxifen (1 and 20 mg o.d. respectively)). The geometric mean steady-state trough plasma concentrations of tamoxifen and DMT were statistically equivalent in patients receiving tamoxifen alone or in combination with anastrozole: geometric mean tamoxifen = 94.8 ng ml(-1)and 95.3 ng ml(-1)in tamoxifen alone and combination groups, respectively; geometric mean DMT = 265.1 and 277.6 ng ml(-1)in the tamoxifen and anastrozole and tamoxifen groups, respectively. The geometric mean anastrozole levels were 27% lower (90% Cl 20-33%;P< 0.001) in the presence of tamoxifen than with anastrozole alone. Baseline plasma oestradiol levels were not obtained in the PK sub-protocol, however, such information was available from a similar ATAC sub-protocol, which evaluated bone mineral density. Mean oestradiol levels were 21.3, 19.3, and 21.6 pmol l(-1)prior to treatment and 3.7, 20.9 and 3.6 pmol l(-1)after 3 months in the anastrozole, tamoxifen, and combination groups, respectively (n = 167). On-treatment values were below the detection limit (3 pmol l(-1)) in 43.6 and 38.5% of the anastrozole alone and anastrozole in combination with tamoxifen groups, respectively. As a result of (a) the lack of effect of anastrozole on tamoxifen and DMT levels and (b) the observed fall in blood anastrozole levels having no significant effect on oestradiol suppression by anastrozole, we conclude that the observed reduction in anastrozole levels by tamoxifen is unlikely to be of clinical significance when anastrozole and tamoxifen are administered together. Copyright 2001 Cancer Research Campaign
Biggs
Well-known member
nice catch Vexler, beat me to it 
.. a few more
Anastrozole (Arimidex) in clinical practice versus the old 'gold standard', tamoxifen.
Buzdar AU.
Department of Breast Medical Oncology, Box 424, University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center, 1515 Holcolme Blvd, Houston, TX 77030, USA. [email protected]
For the past 25 years, the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen has been considered the 'gold standard' for the treatment of breast cancer, despite certain tolerability issues and the risk of developing resistance. The aromatase inhibitors work by blocking the conversion of androgens to estrogen and were developed for use in patients where ovarian function had ceased (naturally, surgically or pharmacologically). Anastrozole, a third-generation nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor that is a highly potent and selective inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme, has been shown to be superior to the gold standard tamoxifen for the first-line treatment of postmenopausal women with advanced breast cancer. As second-line therapy, anastrozole has shown superior survival compared with megestrol acetate and is also efficacious as neoadjuvant treatment in postmenopausal women and in combination with goserelin for the treatment of premenopausal women with advanced breast cancer. More recently, the results of the ATAC (anastrozole, tamoxifen, alone or in combination) trial, a large study in 9366 patients, demonstrated that anastrozole was significantly superior to tamoxifen for the treatment of postmenopausal women with early breast cancer, with regards to disease-free survival (p = 0.013) and incidence of contralateral breast cancer (p = 0.007). In addition, anastrozole was shown to be significantly better tolerated than tamoxifen with respect to endometrial cancer (p = 0.02), vaginal bleeding/discharge (p < 0.0001 for both), ischaemic cerebrovascular events (p = 0.0006), thromboembolic events (p = 0.0006) and hot flushes (p < 0.0001), while tamoxifen was associated with significantly less musculoskeletal disorders and fractures than anastrozole (p < 0.0001 for both). This review focuses on both the clinical pharmacology and the clinical data of anastrozole with emphasis on its future applications.
-----------------------
An overview of the pharmacology and pharmacokinetics of the newer generation aromatase inhibitors anastrozole, letrozole, and exemestane.
Buzdar AU, Robertson JF, Eiermann W, Nabholtz JM.
Department of Breast Medical Oncology, The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston 77030, USA. [email protected]
BACKGROUND: The newer generation, nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitors (AIs) anastrozole and letrozole have shown superior efficacy compared with tamoxifen as first-line treatments and compared with megestrol acetate as second-line therapy in postmenopausal women with advanced breast carcinoma. In an open-label, Phase II trial, it was reported that exemestane showed numerical superiority compared with tamoxifen for objective response and clinical benefit. Because these agents ultimately may be administered for periods of up to 5 years in the adjuvant setting, it is of increasing importance to assess their tolerability and pharmacologic profiles. METHODS: In the absence of data from direct clinical comparisons, the published literature was reviewed for the clinical pharmacology, pharmacokinetic characteristics, and selectivity profiles of anastrozole, letrozole, and exemestane. RESULTS: At clinically administered doses, the plasma half-lives of anastrozole (1 mg once daily), letrozole (2.5 mg once daily), and exemestane (25 mg once daily) were 41-48 hours, 2-4 days, and 27 hours, respectively. The time to steady-state plasma levels was 7 days for both anastrozole and exemestane and 60 days for letrozole. Androgenic side effects have been reported only with exemestane. Anastrozole treatment had no impact on plasma lipid levels, whereas both letrozole and exemestane had an unfavorable effect on plasma lipid levels. In indirect comparisons, anastrozole showed the highest degree of selectivity compared with letrozole and exemestane in terms of a lack of effect on adrenosteroidogenesis. CONCLUSIONS: All three AIs demonstrated clinical efficacy over preexisting treatments. However, there were differences in terms of pharmacokinetics and effects on lipid levels and adrenosteroidogenesis. The long-term clinical significance of these differences remains to be elucidated. Copyright 2002 American Cancer Society.
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.. a few moreAnastrozole (Arimidex) in clinical practice versus the old 'gold standard', tamoxifen.
Buzdar AU.
Department of Breast Medical Oncology, Box 424, University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center, 1515 Holcolme Blvd, Houston, TX 77030, USA. [email protected]
For the past 25 years, the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen has been considered the 'gold standard' for the treatment of breast cancer, despite certain tolerability issues and the risk of developing resistance. The aromatase inhibitors work by blocking the conversion of androgens to estrogen and were developed for use in patients where ovarian function had ceased (naturally, surgically or pharmacologically). Anastrozole, a third-generation nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor that is a highly potent and selective inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme, has been shown to be superior to the gold standard tamoxifen for the first-line treatment of postmenopausal women with advanced breast cancer. As second-line therapy, anastrozole has shown superior survival compared with megestrol acetate and is also efficacious as neoadjuvant treatment in postmenopausal women and in combination with goserelin for the treatment of premenopausal women with advanced breast cancer. More recently, the results of the ATAC (anastrozole, tamoxifen, alone or in combination) trial, a large study in 9366 patients, demonstrated that anastrozole was significantly superior to tamoxifen for the treatment of postmenopausal women with early breast cancer, with regards to disease-free survival (p = 0.013) and incidence of contralateral breast cancer (p = 0.007). In addition, anastrozole was shown to be significantly better tolerated than tamoxifen with respect to endometrial cancer (p = 0.02), vaginal bleeding/discharge (p < 0.0001 for both), ischaemic cerebrovascular events (p = 0.0006), thromboembolic events (p = 0.0006) and hot flushes (p < 0.0001), while tamoxifen was associated with significantly less musculoskeletal disorders and fractures than anastrozole (p < 0.0001 for both). This review focuses on both the clinical pharmacology and the clinical data of anastrozole with emphasis on its future applications.
-----------------------
An overview of the pharmacology and pharmacokinetics of the newer generation aromatase inhibitors anastrozole, letrozole, and exemestane.
Buzdar AU, Robertson JF, Eiermann W, Nabholtz JM.
Department of Breast Medical Oncology, The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston 77030, USA. [email protected]
BACKGROUND: The newer generation, nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitors (AIs) anastrozole and letrozole have shown superior efficacy compared with tamoxifen as first-line treatments and compared with megestrol acetate as second-line therapy in postmenopausal women with advanced breast carcinoma. In an open-label, Phase II trial, it was reported that exemestane showed numerical superiority compared with tamoxifen for objective response and clinical benefit. Because these agents ultimately may be administered for periods of up to 5 years in the adjuvant setting, it is of increasing importance to assess their tolerability and pharmacologic profiles. METHODS: In the absence of data from direct clinical comparisons, the published literature was reviewed for the clinical pharmacology, pharmacokinetic characteristics, and selectivity profiles of anastrozole, letrozole, and exemestane. RESULTS: At clinically administered doses, the plasma half-lives of anastrozole (1 mg once daily), letrozole (2.5 mg once daily), and exemestane (25 mg once daily) were 41-48 hours, 2-4 days, and 27 hours, respectively. The time to steady-state plasma levels was 7 days for both anastrozole and exemestane and 60 days for letrozole. Androgenic side effects have been reported only with exemestane. Anastrozole treatment had no impact on plasma lipid levels, whereas both letrozole and exemestane had an unfavorable effect on plasma lipid levels. In indirect comparisons, anastrozole showed the highest degree of selectivity compared with letrozole and exemestane in terms of a lack of effect on adrenosteroidogenesis. CONCLUSIONS: All three AIs demonstrated clinical efficacy over preexisting treatments. However, there were differences in terms of pharmacokinetics and effects on lipid levels and adrenosteroidogenesis. The long-term clinical significance of these differences remains to be elucidated. Copyright 2002 American Cancer Society.
-----------
Biggs
Well-known member
it's all good wojo, you'll find it... I've seen many studies now (though related to cancer treatment in females) which use Arimidex alone, tamoxifen alone, and then a combo with no real mention of negation (though most conclude that anastrozole alone is best, at least for cancerous women 
), but I may be missing something... will be cool to see that if you can find it...
), but I may be missing something... will be cool to see that if you can find it...
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