Clomid + Arimadex TRT

trx350r

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Whats up guys I got some questions for y'all. So im 24 and have been diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism due to use of harmful drugs and poor lifestyle during important years of growing. Anyways i was prescribed 25mg of clomid EOD and arimadex .25 mg 2 days out of the week in addition to 50 mg of pregnanolone . What do you guys all think of this? Last bloodwork i came up with 710 total T, 46 for SHGB, and E2 was at 25. From my understanding E2 cannot be measured accurately during the use of clomid. I have no libido issues but am still having the symptoms of Low t. I have issues sleeping andhorrible mood swings, depression and irritability. I understand clomid can cause these symptoms but must also consider the adrenal gland as i tend to stress Suggestions?
Also I dont like the idea of using this protocol too long. I have been on for 3 months and have had some improvement but the long term use of clomid doesnt sound good to me. Anyone know of the long term sides of such a protocol? From what I read I would be better off cycling between Test cyp+ HCG+ AI and the clomid or other PCT protocol to keep the HPTA axis firing.
Any imput and opinions from experienced individuals would be very helpful.
Thanks,
D
 

pmgamer18

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I too am secondary but don't Clomid I don't understand why your on Arimidex with this and how you know what your levels are. I read some yrs. ago at Dr. John's forum when it was at MESO you can't test Estradiol on Clomid you need to be off it about 8 weeks to get good labs. And Clomid lowers Estradol in men.
Whats up guys I got some questions for y'all. So im 24 and have been diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism due to use of harmful drugs and poor lifestyle during important years of growing. Anyways i was prescribed 25mg of clomid EOD and arimadex .25 mg 2 days out of the week in addition to 50 mg of pregnanolone . What do you guys all think of this? Last bloodwork i came up with 710 total T, 46 for SHGB, and E2 was at 25. From my understanding E2 cannot be measured accurately during the use of clomid. I have no libido issues but am still having the symptoms of Low t. I have issues sleeping andhorrible mood swings, depression and irritability. I understand clomid can cause these symptoms but must also consider the adrenal gland as i tend to stress Suggestions?
Also I dont like the idea of using this protocol too long. I have been on for 3 months and have had some improvement but the long term use of clomid doesnt sound good to me. Anyone know of the long term sides of such a protocol? From what I read I would be better off cycling between Test cyp+ HCG+ AI and the clomid or other PCT protocol to keep the HPTA axis firing.
Any imput and opinions from experienced individuals would be very helpful.
Thanks,
D
 

trx350r

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Thats exactly what I was thinking concerning the estradiol.. its not accurate to say the least. What kind of protocol are you following for secondary if I may ask? Im thinking ill cut the A.I out for now, maybe that will improve some other symptoms i am experiencing such as joint pain. Another concern is that the clomid can cause LH desensitization over a long period?
 

pmgamer18

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I do Test C shots 80 mgs E3D and the day before this I do 250 IU's of HCG E3D. To keep my E2 down I go by how I feel and use Aromasin but for me I need 2 to 4 pills / day to keep E2 down. This is due to my having been on pain meds and they slow down how the E2 meds work. I have been off Pain meds about a yr. now and as time goes by I am needing less E2 meds.

I am on 30 mgs of HCG / day doing 5 mgs every 4 hrs and I take Shythroid 150 mcgs. with 5 mcgs of T3 4 x's /day and I am on Florinef .1 mgs. 1x’s/day with ½ tsp. of Sea Salt added to water 27oz 3 to 4x’s/day. Due to my Adrenals not being told to work I dump my sodium.

Here is a Cut and Paste on how I take my E2 meds I don't go by labs I do them to keep my Dr. covered.
=======================================
How To Take Arimdex or Aromasin and not go down on your Estradiol to Low.

What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low until my next labs.

The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you can hang a coat on it.

Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said >90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.

I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels back up.

I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3 days.

So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.

I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need .25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.

So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets me dose my arimidex by how I feel.

Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for symptoms of high E2 Here is a list of some of the symptoms of high E2 (you don't have to experience all of the symptoms to know that you have high E2):
* Depression
* Trouble reaching an orgasm
* No erections while sleeping (i.e. "night wood" or "morning wood")
* Anxiety
* Panic Attacks
* Prostate problems
* Gynecomastia
* Water Retention
* Dizziness/Vertigo
* Increased Blood Pressure
* Decreased Libido
* ED
* When penis is limp, it doesn't hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
* Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
* Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
* Lack of Libido
* Crying while watching TV shows/movies
* Easier to get angry (think PMS)
* Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
* Larger stomach
* Redness on the face and/or chest
* Feeling hotter than everybody else
* Thinner skin/bleeding easier
* Headaches/Migraines



Thats exactly what I was thinking concerning the estradiol.. its not accurate to say the least. What kind of protocol are you following for secondary if I may ask? Im thinking ill cut the A.I out for now, maybe that will improve some other symptoms i am experiencing such as joint pain. Another concern is that the clomid can cause LH desensitization over a long period?
 

pmgamer18

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Awards
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  • Established
I do Test C shots 80 mgs E3D and the day before this I do 250 IU's of HCG E3D. To keep my E2 down I go by how I feel and use Aromasin but for me I need 2 to 4 pills / day to keep E2 down. This is due to my having been on pain meds and they slow down how the E2 meds work. I have been off Pain meds about a yr. now and as time goes by I am needing less E2 meds.

I am on 30 mgs of HCG / day doing 5 mgs every 4 hrs and I take Shythroid 150 mcgs. with 5 mcgs of T3 4 x's /day and I am on Florinef .1 mgs. 1x’s/day with ½ tsp. of Sea Salt added to water 27oz 3 to 4x’s/day. Due to my Adrenals not being told to work I dump my sodium.

Here is a Cut and Paste on how I take my E2 meds I don't go by labs I do them to keep my Dr. covered.
=======================================
How To Take Arimdex or Aromasin and not go down on your Estradiol to Low.

What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low until my next labs.

The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you can hang a coat on it.

Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said >90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.

I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels back up.

I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3 days.

So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.

I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need .25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.

So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets me dose my arimidex by how I feel.

Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for symptoms of high E2 Here is a list of some of the symptoms of high E2 (you don't have to experience all of the symptoms to know that you have high E2):
* Depression
* Trouble reaching an orgasm
* No erections while sleeping (i.e. "night wood" or "morning wood")
* Anxiety
* Panic Attacks
* Prostate problems
* Gynecomastia
* Water Retention
* Dizziness/Vertigo
* Increased Blood Pressure
* Decreased Libido
* ED
* When penis is limp, it doesn't hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
* Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
* Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
* Lack of Libido
* Crying while watching TV shows/movies
* Easier to get angry (think PMS)
* Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
* Larger stomach
* Redness on the face and/or chest
* Feeling hotter than everybody else
* Thinner skin/bleeding easier
* Headaches/Migraines



Thats exactly what I was thinking concerning the estradiol.. its not accurate to say the least. What kind of protocol are you following for secondary if I may ask? Im thinking ill cut the A.I out for now, maybe that will improve some other symptoms i am experiencing such as joint pain. Another concern is that the clomid can cause LH desensitization over a long period?
 

trx350r

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That was extremely detailed, this is the type of info i need to to be learning. Sounds like i need to cut the arimadex for a little while as my m orning wood isnt as strong as id like it to be. Strange thing is that i have the symptoms of high E2 haha which is very confusing. Im gonna give it a go though. One thing for sure is that Im not sure I like the clomid. Hopefully I can come off soon. Ill be retesting myself in a few weeks and will post lab results. One thing to note is that my liver enzymes were slightly elevated. Sounds to me like my liver isnt processing the estrogens properly or the meds are effecting it...
Thanks pm gamer

D
 

pmgamer18

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It's not so much my liver it's the levels of the CYP3A4 Enzyme in my liver from the pain meds even taking acetaminophen (APAP) will do this and slow down how your E2 meds work.

And when you stop the pain meds it takes a long long time for this to clear your liver and things to go back to normal.

I was upto 4 pills / day now I am getting by on 1 to 2 pills.

Here is a cut and paste about this I got it from Matrix he is an old friend of mine.
As for your wood not being as strong as you feel it needs to be this is not low E2 it is still to high take more Arimidex and see what happens.
=========================================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11811955


HepG2 cell lines that constitutively and stably express human CYP3A4 were constructed in order to study enzyme interactions with CYP3A4 as the only P450 present. CYP3A4 activity and content were assessed by the metabolism of fentanyl, a CYP3A substrate, and Western blots. Northern blots were used to examine the effects of acetaminophen (APAP) on CYP3A4-mRNA. The HepG2 cell lines' CYP3A4 activity was stable over time. High concentrations of APAP inhibited CYP3A4 activity. At lower concentrations, APAP produced a dose-dependent increase in CYP3A4 activity and content. No increases in CYP3A4-mRNA were seen. Incubation with cycloheximide caused a decrease in fentanyl metabolism secondary to a decrease in P450 levels that was prevented by the coincubation with APAP. Additionally, human microsomal CYP3A4 was stabilized by APAP against cytosol-mediated degradation. In our models, APAP appears to increase CYP3A4 activity. This increase appears to be via substrate stabilization.

That was extremely detailed, this is the type of info i need to to be learning. Sounds like i need to cut the arimadex for a little while as my m orning wood isnt as strong as id like it to be. Strange thing is that i have the symptoms of high E2 haha which is very confusing. Im gonna give it a go though. One thing for sure is that Im not sure I like the clomid. Hopefully I can come off soon. Ill be retesting myself in a few weeks and will post lab results. One thing to note is that my liver enzymes were slightly elevated. Sounds to me like my liver isnt processing the estrogens properly or the meds are effecting it...
Thanks pm gamer

D
 

trx350r

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Whats a good dosage to start with for aromasin?
 

pmgamer18

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Here is a copy of a post I first read about using Aromasin.
====================
Ahhhhh-romasin®! The king of anti-estrogens.

This post is kind of long, but take the time to read it, it's probably the most important thing you'll ever read if you're a BB'er (haha well maybe not, but there's some gold in here)

Exemestane, sold under the name Aromasin® by Pfizer, is an orally available suicidal aromatase inhibitor. <This sentence describes exactly why exemestane is the king of anti-e's for bodybuilding purposes.

Because exemestane is steroidal this gives it a favorable estrogen suppression profile and confers a few really awesome benefits over other anti-estrogens both on paper and in real experience. Steroidal anti-estrogens have the benefit of being lipid-friendly and they all lower SHBG which increases the ratio of free to bound testosterone, which as many experienced BB'ers know can have a relatively profound positive impact on gains.

I think it is important to understand how drugs work in order to properly dose them, exemestane is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor, this means that it binds with aromatase enzymes and as it does so permanently disables the enzyme and destroys it. Hence the "suicidal" this chemical is like a kamikaze pilot out to destroy your aromatase enzymes which is what makes it so special.

Exemestane's half life in the male body is actually very short (~9 hours) and it is quickly eliminated, however, since as soon as it enters your bloodstream it quickly destroys 80-90% of the aromatase enzymes present in your body, it is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours after a single 25mg dose. Estrogen levels only begin to rise again after your body has begun to make new aromatase enzymes to replace the ones destro by exemestane.

There is a great study on the pharmacokinetics of exemestane in men which found the following:
-24 hours after one 25mg dose estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%
-72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below baseline even though the drug itself is almost completely eliminated
-120 hours after initial dose estrogen levels return to baseline (without rebounding)

this means that you can find the timing and dosage that works for you, i've seen some guys recommend between 25mg ED and 12.5mg e4d, and you can see why both are effective while providing different levels of estrogen suppression, and it is this flexibility that makes exemestane such a versatile anti-e.

BUT WAIT, there's more. Aromasin is also a badass PCT drug! In males exemestane was found to increase total testosterone by ~60% after 10 days @ 25mg/day, however the same study found that while it increased total testosterone by 60% free testosterone was increased by over 100 percent! that's right, it DOUBLES bio-available testosterone (natty of course).

I can tell you this much, when I take aromasin for PCT the results are dramatic, honestly my libido is never absent at any point during PCT and I absolutely feel great within a matter of days, and this is taking 12.5mg ED, the only side effect i notice is stiff joints and other stiff areas

the good:
-powerful aromatase inhibitor capable of stopping gynecomastia completely on its own (for aromatizing compounds)
-has powerful bloat-reduction effects
-lowers SHBG, increasing free test & makes all other anabolic steroids more bio-available (read: more gains)
-can actually boost libido on and off cycle
-increases IGF-1
-NO adverse changes in lipid profiles for men (granted if you are using it on cycle this may be different)
-is NOT liver toxic
-no estrogen rebound

the bad:
-typical aromatase inhibitor issues here include stiff joints and possibly lethargy
-more difficult to come by than a-dex or letro

Appropriate uses for Exemestane:

#1) on cycle estrogen control - that's right, any and all estrogen related problems can and should be corrected with this compound, from gynecomastia to acne to bloat exemestane is a panacea, run it at 12.5mg e4d for gynecomastia protection and bloat control, or run it at 25mg ED for pre-contest or for gynecomastia sensitive individuals or moon face. the beauty of aromasin is it's okay to use preventatively and not just as spot treatment for gynecomastia as it doesn't hurt gains nearly to the degree that other anti-e's do, i'd still recommend using anti-e's only if you need them, but if you must use one throughout your cycle, you couldn't pick a better compound to use.

#2) PCT. Aromasin is the premier PCT drug in my experience... honestly PCT is kind of fun with aromasin (maybe that's a stretch) but it's a breeze compared to clomid/nolva and significantly better than a-dex (more powerful and fewer sides) it works excellently with HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - and keeps the extra aromatization from the HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - injects at bay (you can even run higher dosages of HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - above 500iu/inject) and another bonus is since it's safe and comfortable to run for longer periods of time, you can stretch your PCT out to 6 or 8 weeks for suppressive cycles to make sure you get everything back in full working order

#3) gynecomastia reversal - in conjunction with a selective estrogen receptor modulator (raloxifene or tamoxifen) and/or a dihydrotestosterone derived compound aromasin can be effective in reversing/reducing existing gynecomastia

#4) off cycle testosterone boost - sometimes if i dont feel like running a cycle but still want a little extra kick i'll take 25mg EOD for 4-6 weeks, gains aren't improved all that greatly but significantly, but i do it more for the libido/mental effects anyways.

#5) hypogonadism - so you're getting older, you've been cycling since you were 21 and your natty test levels just never get back in the good range, but you don't wanna go HRT??? aromasin will get you back in the game without having to take the plunge for HRT.

inappropriate uses for exemestane:

#1) giving your gf hot flashes

well that's my write up for the best anti-e out there, i'm sure i left some stuff out, if anyone has any questions feel free to PM me or ask on this thread

reference:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...urcetype=HWCIT

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Last edited by 10001110101; 14-Dec-2008 at 12:13 PM.
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