change in norcodrene?

Driven2lift said:
You think Y was an expense we tried to cut?
Lol...
Click to expand...

Try reading my response again.


Driven2lift said:
Also, we're dropping price on the formula that did lose an ingredient without a replacenent, AminoIV
Click to expand...

It lost more than one ingredient. It's basically flavored Leucine now. We'll see how much the price comes down at retailers.

I'm not trying to be bitchy. PES gets to do what it wants, but let's not pretend it isn't primarily about profit.
 
iboj007 said:
I think it's super unfortunate that for YEARS we were told about how superior SA2-A was to "regular" Yohimbine and now we're being told oh just add bulk Yohimbine HCL if you like it so much.

Also, we told told that SA2-A had none of the harsh sides as regular Yohimbine and now we're being told that too many people are sensitive to it?

So PES bros, which one of the statements was complete supp. industry BS? Was it that your extract was superior or was it that your extract had none of the sides? Let me guess, both.
Click to expand...

Agree! Same with Amino IV we were told it had novel ingredients and so on now its just like any other Amino product aside from the ratio.

I understand moving on due to some ingredients being risky and such but this just feels like selling out to go mainstream, but never mind all the loyal supporters eh. Also Im not looking of anything but would have been nice if 1 rep commented on my issue with Norcodrene empty capsules like another board member had, Nevermind though.
 
Lynks8 said:
Nice response. The contempt is all but obvious.

The truth can't be hidden behind rhetoric and spin. PES wants to maximize profits at the expense of its hardcore fans that built the brand in the first place.

Formulations are getting changed for one reason and one reason only: profit. If PES only has to manufacture one product for all markets, cost of goods sold goes down. If PES can reach the Dr. OZ crowd by making easier-to-digest, milder products that can make their ways on to grocery store shelves, sales go up.

It's understandable. I won't begrudge a for-profit business because it's trying to expand...but it is a shame for those of us that prefer novel and efficacious over bland and ubiquitous.
Click to expand...

Wish I seen this post lol, You said it much better than I was trying to :)
 
I hate seeing Alphamine change as well. I am stim sensitive, so I enjoyed being able to sip on it over extended period.

Arguing if a company is trying to make a profit, is crazy though. Why else do you form a business? Profit drives innovation, keeps product in stock, pays employees that reinvest in their communities, etc.
 
EMPIREMIND said:
At the very least i hope you guys start selling alpha yohimbe stand alone... How is it alphamine without alpha yohimbe? Love u guys, but this is a mistake man.
Click to expand...

We sold Target-A2 via Analyzed Supplements.

Surprisingly, it wasn't a good seller at all, despite a lot of forum members begging for it.

Lynks8 said:
Nice response. The contempt is all but obvious.

The truth can't be hidden behind rhetoric and spin. PES wants to maximize profits at the expense of its hardcore fans that built the brand in the first place.

Formulations are getting changed for one reason and one reason only: profit.
Click to expand...

I am very placid and polite on the forums so I hope this gets read in the intended tone.

You are simply incorrect.

Do you honestly believe that the "only" reason we reformulate is about profit?

Sure, we are a business like all supplement companies on here and we have to make profit to operate.

However, company health is also dependent on long term strategy and selling poor quality products isn't part of that plan. We want to build a customer base but retain them long term.

A lot of products get bought once and have a low percentage of repeat purchasers, this is evident with companies who launch a reformulated pre workout every few months. We have been selling Alphamine for literally years and to do this we need something that makes customers want to purchase tub after tub after tub which people can see we achieved given the comments in this thread.

If we wanted to maximise profits why would we reformulate High Volume when we bought Athletix? Arginine nitrate is a very expensive ingredient to add as is HydroMax vs the old GMS that Athletix High Volume used. The cost price of this went up significantly when we reformulated it but we did it anyway because we wanted to make the best non stimulant pre workout on the market.

This is the same with Shift, look at the new profile vs the old one and tell me we did it to cut costs. If we wanted to cut costs there is no way we would use Sabinsa licenced forskolin vs the cheaper extracts that a lot of other companies use.

You don't have to purchase the newer versions of any of our products. As with any company with a large customer base, it is impossible to keep everyone perfectly happy.

However, your allegation that we reformulate products simply to reduce cost and increase margin is simply false.
 
We're on different sides of the fence here but that's just a spark for good discussion

Many are thinking this even if they haven't posted so its good to talk out.

I hope people read both sides here, understand that the reformulation is bringing new effects, and hopefully try it out for themselves
 
iboj007 said:
This is turning into Supplement Industry 101: How to piss off your most loyal, hardcore customers.
Click to expand...

There is backlash every single time we reformulate, even back to the Alpha-T2 days.

There is a common habit of people automatically assuming that a reformulation is a bad thing, despite the fact most of our products sell for years before we ever alter them lol.
 
bdcc said:
There is backlash every single time we reformulate, even back to the Alpha-T2 days.

There is a common habit of people automatically assuming that a reformulation is a bad thing, despite the fact most of our products sell for years before we ever alter them lol.
Click to expand...

Invalid Link Removed

A Stack from back in the good ol days

Shut up and bring back Alpha-T2 beta... and the peppermint bark dirty af marmite hater...
 
Last edited:
cubsfan815 said:
I hate seeing Alphamine change as well. I am stim sensitive, so I enjoyed being able to sip on it over extended period.

Arguing if a company is trying to make a profit, is crazy though. Why else do you form a business? Profit drives innovation, keeps product in stock, pays employees that reinvest in their communities, etc.
Click to expand...

Im not bothered about the Y, I like the UK version better.

Yes obvioulsy they want to make a profit and I would think we all want them too but theres other companys out there making profits that shell out crap after crap and I dont want to see PES going that way. Evomuse for example come out with products that I wouldent think will appeal to the masses/Mainstream but they have a big following (on here anyway). He sells out of everything super fast and his customer service is second to none. PES I feel used to be like this but now.......
 
bdcc said:
There is backlash every single time we reformulate, even back to the Alpha-T2 days.

There is a common habit of people automatically assuming that a reformulation is a bad thing, despite the fact most of our products sell for years before we ever alter them lol.
Click to expand...

no assumptions, the norcodrene profile sucks. it is what it is.
 
Rob1882 said:
Shut up and bring back Alpha-T2 beta... and the peppermint bark dirty af marmite hater...
Click to expand...

When we reformulated Alpha -T2 the first time people complained we removed rauwolscine, prior to ever trying the new one to see how our yohimbe extract compared.

Then we endeavoured to sell rauwolscine capsules because so many people asked for them and the product barely sold. Some people just like to complain lol.

P.S. sorry brah for not trusting your broken taste buds. #SelectTheBest. ;)
 
I think most of us on here understand the need to keep products fresh. That's something that any smart company would do. I think the frustration stems from the implications that PES is swapping out tried and true products with *novel* ingredients that actually work for ingredients that are perceived to be inferior and have already been tried years ago (see Chromium in the new Norcodrene). There is literally no way you will convince anyone on here that Kola Nut and Chromium are better than SA2-A.

We get it; PES is a for-profit business. It needs to keep its shareholders happy. No one on here can begrudge you for doing that. We (the customers on AM) are simply fed up with the bait and switch tactics that come with the supp. industry. It turns companies such as PES from innovators into mainstream companies that quite frankly make boring products that ironically, alienate the very same customers that helped PES become the industry behemoth (see the Alphamine Addicts Anonymous thread).
 
bdcc said:
We sold Target-A2 via Analyzed Supplements.

Surprisingly, it wasn't a good seller at all, despite a lot of forum members begging for it.
Click to expand...

I know. Im on my last bottle and have about 10 caps left... Sadly. Great stuff. I get it. Just think alphamine was one of the best legal supps ive ever used ( including everything) and i really mean this. Have two or three tubs on stash. I support you guys. Im sure theres reasons. I just love me some alphamine man!
 
iboj007 said:
We (the customers on AM) are simply fed up with the bait and switch tactics that come with the supp. industry. It turns companies such as PES from innovators into mainstream companies that quite frankly make boring products that ironically, alienate the very same customers that helped PES become the industry behemoth (see the Alphamine Addicts Anonymous thread).
Click to expand...

Exactly!
 
bdcc said:
When we reformulated Alpha -T2 the first time people complained we removed rauwolscine, prior to ever trying the new one to see how our yohimbe extract compared.

Then we endeavoured to sell rauwolscine capsules because so many people asked for them and the product barely sold. Some people just like to complain lol.

P.S. sorry brah for not trusting your broken taste buds. #SelectTheBest. ;)
Click to expand...

With all due respect, comparing the changes made to Alpha T2 to these is myopic. Correct me if i'm wrong, but that was exchanging rauwolscine for another yohimbine extract, not replacing a yohimbine extract with chromium and kola nut.

Again, this isn't coming from a place of disrespect but out of pure frustration that we're seeing some of the best supplements ever created vanish from shelves forever.
 
bdcc said:
We sold Target-A2 via Analyzed Supplements.

Surprisingly, it wasn't a good seller at all, despite a lot of forum members begging for it.
Click to expand...

Yes, but now that it will (seemingly) be gone from all your products, I suspect demand would be there.



bdcc said:
You are simply incorrect.

Do you honestly believe that the "only" reason we reformulate is about profit?

Sure, we are a business like all supplement companies on here and we have to make profit to operate.

However, company health is also dependent on long term strategy and selling poor quality products isn't part of that plan. We want to build a customer base but retain them long term.

A lot of products get bought once and have a low percentage of repeat purchasers, this is evident with companies who launch a reformulated pre workout every few months. We have been selling Alphamine for literally years and to do this we need something that makes customers want to purchase tub after tub after tub which people can see we achieved given the comments in this thread.

If we wanted to maximise profits why would we reformulate High Volume when we bought Athletix? Arginine nitrate is a very expensive ingredient to add as is HydroMax vs the old GMS that Athletix High Volume used. The cost price of this went up significantly when we reformulated it but we did it anyway because we wanted to make the best non stimulant pre workout on the market.

This is the same with Shift, look at the new profile vs the old one and tell me we did it to cut costs. If we wanted to cut costs there is no way we would use Sabinsa licenced forskolin vs the cheaper extracts that a lot of other companies use.

You don't have to purchase the newer versions of any of our products. As with any company with a large customer base, it is impossible to keep everyone perfectly happy.

However, your allegation that we reformulate products simply to reduce cost and increase margin is simply false.
Click to expand...

I believe you've understandably misinterpreted my, perhaps, hastily-worded post. I am not saying that all PES reformulations have been about profit. I am saying this current round is. How else are we supposed to interpret these recent changes?

-Amino IV gets reduced to simply an Amino supp and the scoop size is nearly halved.
-Norco and Alphamine have SA2-A (and more) removed so PES only has to manufacture one product for all markets.

A shift is happening in PES's business plan. Either these recent changes have been made to maximize profits by reducing COGS and expanding market-share, or the changes are being made so customers want to purchase "tub after tub" as you put it? Which one makes more sense? Which one do you think those that aren't in the loop are going to deduce as the most likely explanation?

Do you understand where we're coming from now? It's simply a matter of Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. As it stands, we don't (yet) have reason to believe there's a better explanation than what we're assuming...
 
That's a long text for the "simplest answer"

I think it's expansion, as we've been pushing really hard lately.
(And literally just broke into Canada where Y is illegal)
 
iboj007 said:
With all due respect, comparing the changes made to Alpha T2 to these is myopic. Correct me if i'm wrong, but that was exchanging rauwolscine for another yohimbine extract, not replacing a yohimbine extract with chromium and kola nut.

Again, this isn't coming from a place of disrespect but out of pure frustration that we're seeing some of the best supplements ever created vanish from shelves forever.
Click to expand...

It isn't supposed to be a perfect comparison, simply an example of people complaining about reformulating, even when it was impossible for them to tell how the new product felt because the extract was our own.

I understand your frustration and some people will feel the same, it is impossible to please everyone.

For us, the reason to remove yohimbe is multi faceted and includes, but is not limited to;
1) the data on fat loss is actually more conflicting than people realise. The most commonly cited fat loss study relied on skin fold measurements which are notoriously unreliable. Some research supports yohimbe for fat loss and some doesn't, such as this study;

"There is some evidence that blockade of alpha 2-adrenoceptors on adipocytes may lead to an increase in lipolysis, We have therefore carried out a double blind comparative study of the effects of the selective alpha 2-antagonist yohimbine in human obesity. Nineteen obese volunteers participated in the study. Subjects were randomly allocated to the yohimbine group (n = 10, 18 mg yohimbine/day), or to the placebo group (n = 9). All subject were maintained on a hypocaloric diet (1000 kcal/day) during the 8 weeks of the study. There was no difference between the two groups with respect to either body weight, blood pressure supine and erect or heart rate during the different phases of the study. We found no difference in the lipid parameters (triglycerides, cholesterol, glycerol, beta-OH-butyrate, acetoacetate and free fatty acids) between the two groups. These results suggest that at the dose used the yohimbine does not influence the function of the alpha 2-adrenoceptors on the adipocytes; does not increase the lipolysis and does not represent an effective treatment of obesity"

Invalid Link Removed

2) Yohimbe is extremely user dependent. We took a lot of pride in testing and pioneering our own extracts which seemed to have low reports of side effects however since we launched Alphamine years ago our company has gone from mostly forum only to being in large chain brick and mortar stores as well as top 40 (fluctuating there or thereabouts) on BB.com. Our customer base has grown several fold and due to this the risk for an ingredient increases substantially because the people buying our products aren't simply forum browsers, it is now a very wide market.
3) Yohimbe is cheap and easy to add your own.
4) Yohimbe is non compliant in a large portion of the world.

Given it's risk for side effects and low price point, we believe it makes sense to formulate without it and let you add your own if you wish.

Some people, including those on this forum will welcome this change and some people would prefer we included yohimbe in newer products.

If you wish to purchase the newer products, awesome.

If you feel that the newer profiles don't suit your specific circumstances then that is fine as well. :)
 
Sure.

Shortest answer = Expansion

A concern brought on by our very recent expansions.

Would suck to break into Canada and not sell half the line


Picture is larger than AM
 
bdcc said:
It isn't supposed to be a perfect comparison, simply an example of people complaining about reformulating, even when it was impossible for them to tell how the new product felt because the extract was our own.

I understand your frustration and some people will feel the same, it is impossible to please everyone.

For us, the reason to remove yohimbe is multi faceted and includes, but is not limited to;
1) the data on fat loss is actually more conflicting than people realise. The most commonly cited fat loss study relied on skin fold measurements which are notoriously unreliable. Some research supports yohimbe for fat loss and some doesn't, such as this study;

"There is some evidence that blockade of alpha 2-adrenoceptors on adipocytes may lead to an increase in lipolysis, We have therefore carried out a double blind comparative study of the effects of the selective alpha 2-antagonist yohimbine in human obesity. Nineteen obese volunteers participated in the study. Subjects were randomly allocated to the yohimbine group (n = 10, 18 mg yohimbine/day), or to the placebo group (n = 9). All subject were maintained on a hypocaloric diet (1000 kcal/day) during the 8 weeks of the study. There was no difference between the two groups with respect to either body weight, blood pressure supine and erect or heart rate during the different phases of the study. We found no difference in the lipid parameters (triglycerides, cholesterol, glycerol, beta-OH-butyrate, acetoacetate and free fatty acids) between the two groups. These results suggest that at the dose used the yohimbine does not influence the function of the alpha 2-adrenoceptors on the adipocytes; does not increase the lipolysis and does not represent an effective treatment of obesity"

Invalid Link Removed

2) Yohimbe is extremely user dependent. We took a lot of pride in testing and pioneering our own extracts which seemed to have low reports of side effects however since we launched Alphamine years ago our company has gone from mostly forum only to being in large chain brick and mortar stores as well as top 40 (fluctuating there or thereabouts) on BB.com. Our customer base has grown several fold and due to this the risk for an ingredient increases substantially because the people buying our products aren't simply forum browsers, it is now a very wide market.
3) Yohimbe is cheap and easy to add your own.
4) Yohimbe is non compliant in a large portion of the world.

Given it's risk for side effects and low price point, we believe it makes sense to formulate without it and let you add your own if you wish.

Some people, including those on this forum will welcome this change and some people would prefer we included yohimbe in newer products.

If you wish to purchase the newer products, awesome.

If you feel that the newer profiles don't suit your specific circumstances then that is fine as well. :)
Click to expand...

As long as its better than before how could anyone complain?
 
Driven2lift said:
Sure.

Shortest answer = legality.

A concern brought on by our very recent expansions.

Would suck to break into Canada and not sell half the line


Picture is larger than AM
Click to expand...

Making my point for me. Instead of having multiple products for multiple markets, it's cheaper to have one product for all markets, even if it's less effective.
Invalid Link Removed
 
Sounds like assumptions of someone who hasn't tried it out yet

We've heard the concerns, let's pave way for loggers and the Insider and see how effective the next generation is
 
Lynks8 said:
Making my point for me. Instead of having multiple products for multiple markets, it's cheaper to have one product for all markets, even if it's less effective.
Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

It is actually swings and roundabouts with new markets.

Yes, it is cheaper to make one product and sell it everywhere but many regions want their own exclusive and will buy more if that is the case.

Example; Australia has Alphamine Advanced even though nowhere else has a product with this name, they also have Prolific because they wanted it before anywhere else, even if the profile would be different to the US version.

If you make an exclusive for EU or AU, they will quite possibly order more than if there is one global formula because they promote it extra hard that they have the global exclusive.

So, it is six of one and half a dozen of another. :)
 
I keep thinking about beers in different countries. I always hear about heinekens in other countries being stronger than the us. I think of this with international supplements. The name doesnt change, formula does though.
 
Honestly, Ben couldn't have said it any better. Also, the new formula is not less effective and will be a bigger hit than people think.

Big Papi said:
no assumptions, the norcodrene profile sucks. it is what it is.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Rather unfair to take one quick glance at the profile and make a judgement so quickly.
 
EMPIREMIND said:
Good to hear!
Click to expand...

I know people think everything is about money, but it isn't. My first few posts on the topic were long and detailed, and all people got from it was "$$$". When I work on something, one of the first things I ask myself is "Is this something I would personally use?" I personally don't use many supplements, so when I help design something, that is a major concern of mine. I like to take pride in the work I do, so its insulting for people to think its all about the money when it literally does not affect me personally whether or not a product sells since my job is R&D, not sales.
 
Synapsin said:
I know people think everything is about money, but it isn't. My first few posts on the topic were long and detailed, and all people got from it was "$$$". When I work on something, one of the first things I ask myself is "Is this something I would personally use?" I personally don't use many supplements, so when I help design something, that is a major concern of mine. I like to take pride in the work I do, so its insulting for people to think its all about the money when it literally does not affect me personally whether or not a product sells since my job is R&D, not sales.
Click to expand...

I can absolutely understand that. I would be offended as well. No matter what i just really love the old one. You guys got big shoes to fill lol

And not to sound ignorant but if it is effective then who cares. Take it and get results... Lol
 
I'm sure my opinion will be unpopular, but I'm just gonna thrown in my 2 cents before I just ignore this thread.

1) Most of these fat burners/diet pills don't really help you burn fat, they're meant to help make dieting not feel like complete crap. I've seen plenty of people get shredded with a single fat burner pill. These new ingredients seem like they may allow people to feel better while dieting. Also, even though I am Yohimbine tolerant (i can take 17.5 YHCL pre-cardio and not have a heart attack) I think the anxiety sides SOMETIMES come into play. Not really great during dieting.

2) Yohimbine as a fat burner is only useful IMO, before cardio and without insulin being raised (meaning no food anywhere near the time you plan on doing this combo of Yohimbine+Cardio). Anytime else is honestly a waste because Yohimbine's MOA gets thrown out the window when insulin is elevated. I see people taking Yohimbine/Norcodrene near food all the time. Why bother? Maybe I missed something. This makes the formula more versatile. I like barebones/minimum and "targeted" formulas but that's just me.

3) Yohimbine is cheap. Just add it in. I know people keep talking about the novel ingredient, but eh, you either can't take Yohimbine or you can. There is a decent amount of options out there for this now, including Alpha-Y.

Either way, it's worth a try. If it's dirt cheap on an insider, I'll still buy it. I wish there was more novel stuff, but I'll just take what works. I mean, look at what happened with Amentoflavone...hahahaha....
 
bdcc said:
It isn't supposed to be a perfect comparison, simply an example of people complaining about reformulating, even when it was impossible for them to tell how the new product felt because the extract was our own.

I understand your frustration and some people will feel the same, it is impossible to please everyone.

For us, the reason to remove yohimbe is multi faceted and includes, but is not limited to;
1) the data on fat loss is actually more conflicting than people realise. The most commonly cited fat loss study relied on skin fold measurements which are notoriously unreliable. Some research supports yohimbe for fat loss and some doesn't, such as this study;

"There is some evidence that blockade of alpha 2-adrenoceptors on adipocytes may lead to an increase in lipolysis, We have therefore carried out a double blind comparative study of the effects of the selective alpha 2-antagonist yohimbine in human obesity. Nineteen obese volunteers participated in the study. Subjects were randomly allocated to the yohimbine group (n = 10, 18 mg yohimbine/day), or to the placebo group (n = 9). All subject were maintained on a hypocaloric diet (1000 kcal/day) during the 8 weeks of the study. There was no difference between the two groups with respect to either body weight, blood pressure supine and erect or heart rate during the different phases of the study. We found no difference in the lipid parameters (triglycerides, cholesterol, glycerol, beta-OH-butyrate, acetoacetate and free fatty acids) between the two groups. These results suggest that at the dose used the yohimbine does not influence the function of the alpha 2-adrenoceptors on the adipocytes; does not increase the lipolysis and does not represent an effective treatment of obesity"

Invalid Link Removed

2) Yohimbe is extremely user dependent. We took a lot of pride in testing and pioneering our own extracts which seemed to have low reports of side effects however since we launched Alphamine years ago our company has gone from mostly forum only to being in large chain brick and mortar stores as well as top 40 (fluctuating there or thereabouts) on BB.com. Our customer base has grown several fold and due to this the risk for an ingredient increases substantially because the people buying our products aren't simply forum browsers, it is now a very wide market.
3) Yohimbe is cheap and easy to add your own.
4) Yohimbe is non compliant in a large portion of the world.

Given it's risk for side effects and low price point, we believe it makes sense to formulate without it and let you add your own if you wish.

Some people, including those on this forum will welcome this change and some people would prefer we included yohimbe in newer products.

If you wish to purchase the newer products, awesome.

If you feel that the newer profiles don't suit your specific circumstances then that is fine as well. :)
Click to expand...

That's a bit of a silly argument quoting a 1986 study when yohimbe alkaloids have been used in PES products since the inception of the company. Even current and previous reps have cited Yohimbine being better than ephedrine at burning fat in the past. Anyways i'm all for change and will be trying all new formulations which come out.
 
So wait, after all these years of PES telling us how effective yohimbine is for fat loss, now they're saying "jury is still out". Not really helping your credibility guys.
 
Chefdeez said:
So wait, after all these years of PES telling us how effective yohimbine is for fat loss, now they're saying "jury is still out". Not really helping your credibility guys.
Click to expand...

Exactly this! It's almost a slap in the face to loyal customers who read all the awesome writeups from guys like Coop and JudoJosh on the effectiveness and strategy for using PES' yohimbine extracts.

I mean you guys were pushing the extracts HARD as being as effective or even more effective than ephedrine (which is proven effective). So now to come out and say meh, maybe it's not as effective as we originally stated is literally a head scratching moment for myself and many, many others on this forum. It just seems like now we're going to get new writeups pushing the new narrative that Y extracts aren't really that effective and whatever new replacement you are adding is better.
 
I've said nothing against Y and Ben is just citing the resent study indications.

If you want the Y, add some bulk


No one is forcing opinions here, we've changed the formula and you can buy it or not, we've seen any/all arguing over it that can be said...
 
iboj007 said:
I mean you guys were pushing the extracts HARD as being as effective or even more effective than ephedrine (which is proven effective). So now to come out and say meh, maybe it's not as effective as we originally stated is literally a head scratching moment for myself and many, many others on this forum. It just seems like now we're going to get new writeups pushing the new narrative that Y extracts aren't really that effective and whatever new replacement you are adding is better.
Click to expand...

I write the product write ups, and at no point will it say any of the above. Also, I've never once said yohimbine was more effective than ephedrine, nor have I spoken poorly of Y other than compliance and user side effects. You can search through 10 years of my posts on this forum and another forum if you want.
 
Synapsin said:
I write the product write ups, and at no point will it say any of the above. Also, I've never once said yohimbine was more effective than ephedrine, nor have I spoken poorly of Y other than compliance and user side effects. You can search through 10 years of my posts on this forum and another forum if you want.
Click to expand...

So you're saying there was no hype whatsoever for Norcodrene, Alphamine or Target A2? Specifically hyping up the efficacy of SA2-A? My post was meant to highlight the plethora of anecdotal and scientific feedback given by people *associated* with the PES brand, not by your writeups specifically.

Again, this isn't a pissing match or a he said she said situation. I think what this entire thread is showing is that there is real backlash for a perceived slight to some of your most loyal customers.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
That's a bit of a silly argument quoting a 1986 study when yohimbe alkaloids have been used in PES products since the inception of the company. Even current and previous reps have cited Yohimbine being better than ephedrine at burning fat in the past. Anyways i'm all for change and will be trying all new formulations which come out.
Click to expand...

Chefdeez said:
So wait, after all these years of PES telling us how effective yohimbine is for fat loss, now they're saying "jury is still out". Not really helping your credibility guys.
Click to expand...

It depends what you are using it for.

I have used a lot of yohimbe. It works well to suppress my appetite therefore using a thermogenic such as Alphamine or Norcodrene in a fat loss phase has always been my go to.

That being said, you can make arguments for yohimbe both ways I.e. if calories are controlled, would yohimbe cause greater fat loss or would it cause greater fat loss because it suppresses appetite.

I still think it has a potentially valuable role in a thermogenic however the costs and benefits must be weighed up. If we can suppress someone's appetite to the same degree without yohimbe then we can release a product which is less inclined to cause side effects in a subset of individuals. :)
 
bdcc said:
It depends what you are using it for.

I have used a lot of yohimbe. It works well to suppress my appetite therefore using a thermogenic such as Alphamine or Norcodrene in a fat loss phase has always been my go to.

That being said, you can make arguments for yohimbe both ways I.e. if calories are controlled, would yohimbe cause greater fat loss or would it cause greater fat loss because it suppresses appetite.

I still think it has a potentially valuable role in a thermogenic however the costs and benefits must be weighed up. If we can suppress someone's appetite to the same degree without yohimbe then we can release a product which is less inclined to cause side effects in a subset of individuals. :)
Click to expand...

You would make a solid politician sir ben
 
Chefdeez said:
So wait, after all these years of PES telling us how effective yohimbine is for fat loss, now they're saying "jury is still out". Not really helping your credibility guys.
Click to expand...

The jury is out on a lot of ingredients. Look at betaine. I love it but there is hardly a consensus on it.

In fact plenty have zero data in humans and yet we lap up those studies even if it was conducted in 90 year old, one eyed hawks with down syndrome.
 
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