Cardarine stopped working!?

[Old Witch]

Looks like I found my tolerance curve. Been on 10mg a day for the better part of last year. Took only a short break in October while running dmz (should’ve stayed on it) For the past week I’ve been noticing my cardio endurance is not at all what it was up til this point. My protocol is to preload the cardarine at 20mg a day for two weeks to get endurance up quickly then back off the dosage to 10mg a day. This had worked perfectly til now. I’m faced with either upping my dose or cycling off. I’ll cycle off.

Just wanted to let you guys know that apparently it is tolerance building, so if you’re wanting to stay on it year round you might have to keep ramping the dose. One month break is not long enough, either, apparently.

 

[Chados]

Well if you don't run for a year you'll get fatigued instantly when running. When you take cardarine you'll get say 20% more energy (just an assumption) cardarine isn't gonna keep increasing all the time. At some point you'll need to increase the intensity of your running. It's like anything, epo, steroids etc etc. OR maybe up dosage.. I'd train harder instead

 

[Old Witch]

Well if you don't run for a year you'll get fatigued instantly when running. When you take cardarine you'll get say 20% more energy (just an assumption) cardarine isn't gonna keep increasing all the time. At some point you'll need to increase the intensity of your running. It's like anything, epo, steroids etc etc. OR maybe up dosage.. I'd train harder instead

Right, but if everything is same then endurance should remain same.

 

[Old Witch]

Heart rate during weight training, during rest, blood pressure etc. all went back to pre cardarine numbers.

 

[Old Witch]

I mean, maybe the bottom of the bottle was full of empty caps? Guess there’s no control group for this, just noting my experience.

 

[Ricky10]

Maybe when you are cycling off Cardarine, you could try OL UK SUP3R Shred?

Artemisia Iwayomogi is supposed to be the herbal alternative to Cardarine. I have never tried it but it has always been on my want to try list.

 

[Chados]

I mean, maybe the bottom of the bottle was full of empty caps? Guess there’s no control group for this, just noting my experience.

Could be tolerance for sure or placebo

 

[Old Witch]

Could be tolerance for sure or placebo

I’m thinking tolerance because without it my endurance sucks ass and my blood work showed it’s effects while I was on it. hahahaha if I could get that kind of result from a placebo, man, I’d be buying tons of sugar pills.

 

[rgurleyjr]

It's absolutely tolerance. The body will build a tolerance for just about everything including prescription meds, why wouldn't this be the same?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Year round use with continuous and indefinite escalating doses? What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Old Witch]

Year round use with continuous and indefinite escalating doses? What could possibly go wrong?

Absolutely nothing, you alarmist.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Absolutely nothing, you alarmist.

You do know that year round use and indefinitely escalating doses means you’ll be using the doses from the studies you called insanely and needlessly high in all the threads with a few years, right? Maybe people like you are the reason they used such high doses lol. Hell, even largely benign drugs can get dangerous with indefinite escalating doses. This is just getting silly. Using it in cycles at 10mg is one thing; using it indefinitely at escalating doses is just asinine.

 

[jdm23]

I’m thinking tolerance because without it my endurance sucks ass and my blood work showed it’s effects while I was on it. hahahaha if I could get that kind of result from a placebo, man, I’d be buying tons of sugar pills.

How did it affect your blood work? About to start taking it for a few weeks to help with lipids, endurance, etc.

 

[Old Witch]

How did it affect your blood work? About to start taking it for a few weeks to help with lipids, endurance, etc.

Hdl went up, Ldl went down, blood pressure went down, resting and active heart rates went down.

 

[Old Witch]

You do know that year round use and indefinitely escalating doses means you’ll be using the doses from the studies you called insanely and needlessly high in all the threads with a few years, right? Maybe people like you are the reason they used such high doses lol. Hell, even largely benign drugs can get dangerous with indefinite escalating doses. This is just getting silly. Using it in cycles at 10mg is one thing; using it indefinitely at escalating doses is just asinine.

Seems to work for amphetamine(clinically, as that’s how it is prescribed for adhd and narcolepsy, in escalating doses) I’m sure (positive, absolutely convinced, in fact) that cardarine is safer than amphetamine in every possible conceivable way. It’s literally a heart protectant.

Seems like your argument is asinine, to me.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Seems to work for amphetamine(clinically, as that’s how it is prescribed for adhd and narcolepsy, in escalating doses) I’m sure (positive, absolutely convinced, in fact) that cardarine is safer than amphetamine in every possible conceivable way. It’s literally a heart protectant.

Seems like your argument is asinine, to me.

And indefinitely escalating doses of amphetamines is terrible for you. Same with opioids too. Just because other drugs may be worse doesn’t make everything else harmless lol.

 

[Old Witch]

And indefinitely escalating doses of amphetamines is terrible for you. Same with opioids too. Just because other drugs may be worse doesn’t make everything else harmless lol.

No, but when we’re talking about something that literally can only enhance cardiac health, there’s a significant disparity from something which can only destroy cardiac tissue such as amphetamine.

Indefinitely escalating doses of amphetamine are considered safe for human consumption by the FDA, as I said, that’s how they’re prescribed. Try to refute this idea with as many completely ignorant and pointless arguments as you like. The fact remains. Cardarine IS SAFER. PERIOD.

 

[TheSuppGuy]

Seems to work for amphetamine(clinically, as that’s how it is prescribed for adhd and narcolepsy, in escalating doses) I’m sure (positive, absolutely convinced, in fact) that cardarine is safer than amphetamine in every possible conceivable way. It’s literally a heart protectant.

Seems like your argument is asinine, to me.

Don't u believe in the cancer aspect

 

[Old Witch]

Don't u believe in the cancer aspect

cardarine does not cause cancer in humans.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

No, but when we’re talking about something that literally can only enhance cardiac health, there’s a significant disparity from something which can only destroy cardiac tissue such as amphetamine.

Indefinitely escalating doses of amphetamine are considered safe for human consumption by the FDA, as I said, that’s how they’re prescribed. Try to refute this idea with as many completely ignorant and pointless arguments as you like. The fact remains. Cardarine IS SAFER. PERIOD.

Playing Russian Roulette with a six-shooter is SAFER than playing it with a five-round revolver. PERIOD. That in no way means it safe. Basic logic is hard though...

 

[TheSuppGuy]

cardarine does not cause cancer in humans.

Are you sure? Should I take it then? All I see when researching is it should also cause cancer in humans since our DNA is 99% the same?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Are you sure? Should I take it then? All I see when researching is it should also cause cancer in humans since our DNA is 99% the same?

We DO NOT KNOW. Here are the OBJECTIVE facts that cannot be argued:

-Short term (NMT 12 weeks) use in humans at low doses (NMT 10mg/day) is safe and effective when used in isolation (not with steroids for example).

-Long term studies (from a few months to the duration of the rodents’ lives) using doses roughly equivalent to 50+mg (as a safety factor) have been shown to increase cancer growth in rodents that were genetically predisposed to cancer growth. In other words, these rodents developed cancer regardless, but developed it faster and more severely with Cardarine treatment.

-In vitro (cello studies) indicate is doesn’t do this in human cells. No studies in actual living humans have tested this, for pretty obvious ethical reasons. We cannot say with certainty what will happen in actual living humans yet. We can hypothesize, but not definitely state.

I’m not even going to give my opinion here, just present the facts. You decide what you want to do. I don’t think Old Witch can even argue with me here, as I’m just presenting information with all relevant disclaimers on dose, duration, and subject characteristics.

 

[TheSuppGuy]

We DO NOT KNOW. Here are the OBJECTIVE facts that cannot be argued:

-Short term (NMT 12 weeks) use in humans at low doses (NMT 10mg/day) is safe and effective when used in isolation (not with steroids for example).

-Long term studies (from a few months to the duration of the rodents’ lives) using doses roughly equivalent to 50+mg (as a safety factor) have been shown to increase cancer growth in rodents that were genetically predisposed to cancer growth. In other words, these rodents developed cancer regardless, but developed it faster and more severely with Cardarine treatment.

-In vitro (cello studies) indicate is doesn’t do this in human cells. No studies in actual living humans have tested this, for pretty obvious ethical reasons. We cannot say with certainty what will happen in actual living humans yet. We can hypothesize, but not definitely state.

I’m not even going to give my opinion here, just present the facts. You decide what you want to do. I don’t think Old Witch can even argue with me here, as I’m just presenting information with all relevant disclaimers on dose, duration, and subject characteristics.

I actually did alot of research, and came to the conclusion it might actually not be that unsafe. You should use it if you think the benefits exceed the negatives. And that is why I'm asking: what are the benefits? I mean like, how good is it really for cutting fat? It sounds like a long term supplement, but that's what you do not want to do with this?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I actually did alot of research, and came to the conclusion it might actually not be that unsafe. You should use it if you think the benefits exceed the negatives. And that is why I'm asking: what are the benefits? I mean like, how good is it really for cutting fat? It sounds like a long term supplement, but that's what you do not want to do with this?

Yes, literally every single thing you do in life comes down to risk vs reward, if you factor in the “risk” associated with opportunity cost. It’s actually not that good at actually burning fat. If you want something that will actually burn fat itself, just go ECA, which is proven to be insanely safe, even when used long term. Where Cardarine works, and works well, is for cardiovascular health and performance. So if you capitalize on extra endurance, then it can help you lose weight, sure, but the risk/reward just isn’t there when you can use something like ECA that will actually burn fat itself.

If you’re an endurance athlete, then it can give you a competitive edge, and some people use it on cycle (with steroids) to mitigate/minimize the deleterious effects they have on cardiovascular parameters. These are really the only two scenarios where it’s even remotely logical to consider using it IMO, and I think Old Witch may even have common ground with me here.

 

[Old Witch]

I actually did alot of research, and came to the conclusion it might actually not be that unsafe. You should use it if you think the benefits exceed the negatives. And that is why I'm asking: what are the benefits? I mean like, how good is it really for cutting fat? It sounds like a long term supplement, but that's what you do not want to do with this?

Burning fat, look elsewhere. If you like having no arterial plaques and a healthy heart, cardarine is the top dog.

Anybody here ever use GH or mk677? That’s a definite human cancer cell line growth factor. Cardarine is by default safer than that, as it is definitely proven NOT to be a human cancer cell line growth factor.

Also, don’t let crohn and his fact twisting fool you, cardarine was tested on humans in vivo. Not for periods of years, however. Though that in vitro study on human cancer cell lines is pretty hard evidence to support my claims and discredit anyone thinking to the contrary. That’s for damn sure. If it was a growth factor, that test alone should prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But it didn’t, in fact, it showed exactly the opposite: if anything it inhibits cancer cell growth and increases cancer cell death (apoptosis)

 

[Old Witch]

Playing Russian Roulette with a six-shooter is SAFER than playing it with a five-round revolver. PERIOD. That in no way means it safe. Basic logic is hard though...

Playing with an unloaded pistol is even safer. And that’s what we have here. An unloaded pistol. Cardarine does not cause cancer in humans.

 

[Old Witch]

We’re talking about a rodent’s metabolic activity and how it affects their disposition to cancer, therefore in rats and mice, anything which causes extra Ppar modulation will cause more cancer growth, because cancer cell growth in rodents is actually affected by their rate of activity (or synthetic simulation via pparm drugs) whereas in humans it is not.

 

[Old Witch]

So, in a nutshell: cardarine does not cause cancer in humans.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Playing with an unloaded pistol is even safer. And that’s what we have here. An unloaded pistol. Cardarine does not cause cancer in humans.

If you want the best analogy, you can say you think it’s unloaded, or it’s likely to be unloaded. You do not KNOW for sure that it is unloaded (safe). Either way, safe or not, is a HYPOTHESIS, not a FACT. That is all I am saying.

Burning fat, look elsewhere. If you like having no arterial plaques and a healthy heart, cardarine is the top dog.

Anybody here ever use GH or mk677? That’s a definite human cancer cell line growth factor. Cardarine is by default safer than that, as it is definitely proven NOT to be a human cancer cell line growth factor.

Also, don’t let crohn and his fact twisting fool you, cardarine was tested on humans in vivo. Not for periods of years, however. Though that in vitro study on human cancer cell lines is pretty hard evidence to support my claims and discredit anyone thinking to the contrary. That’s for damn sure. If it was a growth factor, that test alone should prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But it didn’t, in fact, it showed exactly the opposite: if anything it inhibits cancer cell growth and increases cancer cell death (apoptosis)

It was tested on humans for no more than twelve weeks. I’d hope it’s not giving people cancer in three months lol. You probably won’t get cancer smoking a pack a day for three months.

We do not know for sure either way. Stop claiming to know.

 

[Old Witch]

If you want the best analogy, you can say you think it’s unloaded, or it’s likely to be unloaded. You do not KNOW for sure that it is unloaded (safe). Either way, safe or not, is a HYPOTHESIS, not a FACT. That is all I am saying.

It was tested on humans for no more than twelve weeks. I’d hope it’s not giving people cancer in three months lol. You probably won’t get cancer smoking a pack a day for three months.

We do not know for sure either way. Stop claiming to know.

But, I DO KNOW because I actually understand the material. I try to explain it to you and you keep dodging the actual facts presented which I have had to go to lengths to dumb down for you and you attempt to dismiss them as opinion. Sorry, Oxford University says it doesn’t cause cancer in humans, man. That was the whole point of the study. Now get off it, you’re way wrong, and annoying.

 

[Old Witch]

Gee I wonder why they thought it wasn’t profitable, a couple rat tumors and idiots like you will be screaming carcinogen for twenty years or more, despite HUGE AND VERY IMPORTANT evidence to the contrary.

Now please, never comment on another cardarine thread ever again.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Gee I wonder why they thought it wasn’t profitable, a couple rat tumors and idiots like you will be screaming carcinogen for twenty years or more, despite HUGE AND VERY IMPORTANT evidence to the contrary.

Now please, never comment on another cardarine thread ever again.

All I’m saying is that we do not know for sure. If you just admit that you can not say with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that it doesn’t increase the rate or incidence of cancer growth, I’ll stop posting about it.

-I am not saying it CAUSES cancer. So that’s a straw man argument.

-The human cell study presents compelling evidence, but not conclusive evidence. Even the authors suggest more research is necessary.

-I have no issue with you saying it’s LIKELY to be safe, or that the research POINTS TOWARDS it being safe.
——-It’s you saying you KNOW IT IS SAFE where you are wrong. You do not KNOW.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

PS: I’d LOVE to be proven wrong in 5-10-20 years if more research (not just bros using it and saying they didn’t get cancer) is conducted. I’m not claiming it DOES increase cancer growth, only that it MAY, since we do not KNOW with CERTAINTY.

 

[Old Witch]

All I’m saying is that we do not know for sure. If you just admit that you can not say with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that it doesn’t increase the rate or incidence of cancer growth, I’ll stop posting about it.

-I am not saying it CAUSES cancer. So that’s a straw man argument.

-The human cell study presents compelling evidence, but not conclusive evidence. Even the authors suggest more research is necessary.

-I have no issue with you saying it’s LIKELY to be safe, or that the research POINTS TOWARDS it being safe.
——-It’s you saying you KNOW IT IS SAFE where you are wrong. You do not KNOW.

This study is conclusive, hence the title. I’m done. Go take your hypermax or whatever.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

This study is conclusive, hence the title. I’m done. Go take your hypermax or whatever.

Read from the study:

results from the present study suggest that this difference is probably not due to structural differences in the ligand, differences between in vivo and in vitro models, differences between normal and cancerous cells and/or due to differences resulting from the presence or absence of serum in the culture medium.

These findings suggest that the reported differences are also not due to differences between in vivo and in vitro models.

If the study SUGGESTS, it is not DEFINITIVE or CONCLUSIVE. It is s great point for future research however.

 

[Old Witch]

Read from the study:


If the study SUGGESTS, it is not DEFINITIVE or CONCLUSIVE. It is s great point for future research however.

Generally, they never use the word “concludes” in any unbiased academic study. Ever. They only ever suggest. The conclusion is reached by the interpretation of the data and associated articulation.

Studies only ever SUGGESTED that tobacco caused cancer. The conclusion, legally, was reached by the Surgeon General.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Generally, they never use the word “concludes” in any unbiased academic study. Ever. They only ever suggest. The conclusion is reached by the interpretation of the data and associated articulation.

Studies only ever SUGGESTED that tobacco caused cancer. The conclusion, legally, was reached by the Surgeon General.

Once you have multiple studies showing similar results, and verifying the methodology and data, you become more able to make meaningful conclusions. If/when we have a second study conducted by different researchers showing similar results, then we will have a much stronger case to support your claims. With only one study, you don’t want to really jump to any conclusions. There are plenty of position papers, where, when there is enough information to come to meaningful conclusions, the authors/organization will make a conclusion(s) on the topic. We just don’t have enough info to do that here. Hopefully we will one day, and I WANT to be proven wrong in time here. If it is safe, amazing. But we don’t KNOW FOR SURE yet.

 

[Old Witch]

Fair enough. In any case, this post points to that, no, one ought NOT use cardarine long term (because of the tolerance factor) and it is best used on cycle or for competitive purposes. That is true. Yes.