Cardarine back on the table???

[Whisky]

Listening to MPMD the other day and it seems that GW is being studied in humans again (he was looking at results from a 2 week trial in humans from August this year).

I got distracted for a small part and I’ve not had time to look the results up for myself but Derek is normally really solid.

seemed 10a day was used and a vast array of health markers all improved (which we’ve all known it does anyway I guess).

the interesting thing for me was more that it was being used in humans after the whole rat cancer issue leading to it being dropped. He addressed that and whilst I don’t think in any way we could say it definitely doesn’t cause cancer he also highlights that some of the benefits around inflammation may reduce the cancer risk associated with that issue (I.e for some people the risk to reward ratio when comparing the positive reduction in risk from known cancer pathways vs the increase in risk from a less known cancer possibility may make it worth it)

for clarity I’m sure as **** not suggesting to anyone that is safe to take….. just flagging a study that appears to suggest it’s a compound that is still of interest in the scientific world

edit 10mg not g

 

[ssg11111]

10grams or 10mg? I assume the latter lol.

I've dug pretty deep into it and the results are very inconclusive and the rats used, used it for a significant percentage portion of their life. IMO if you do use it, run it low and for 4 weeks at a time with big breaks in between.

The great thing about cardarine is it vastly improves cardiovascular health and reduces inflammation as you mention. If heart disease runs in your family, I think it comes out more favorable as a great tool, especially when older.

Rat study (page 185): http://web.archive.org/web/20150504013406/http:/www.toxicology.org/AI/PUB/Tox/2009Tox.pdf

For a 200 pound / 90 kg male, this is the equivalent 43.2mg per day. Study was ran for 104 weeks.

Human studies in its favor especially against heart disease and inflammation: https://academic.oup.com/mend/article/17/12/2477/2747399

PPARδ: a dagger in the heart of the metabolic syndrome

Obesity is a growing threat to global health by virtue of its association with insulin resistance, glucose intolerance, hypertension, and dyslipidemia, collectively known as the metabolic syndrome or syndrome X. The nuclear receptors PPARα and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Whisky]

10grams or 10mg? I assume the latter lol.

I've dug pretty deep into it and the results are very inconclusive and the rats used, used it for a significant percentage portion of their life. IMO if you do use it, run it low and for 4 weeks at a time with big breaks in between.

The great thing about cardarine is it vastly improves cardiovascular health and reduces inflammation as you mention. If heart disease runs in your family, I think it comes out more favorable as a great tool, especially when older.

Rat study (page 185): http://web.archive.org/web/20150504013406/http:/www.toxicology.org/AI/PUB/Tox/2009Tox.pdf

For a 200 pound / 90 kg male, this is the equivalent 43.2mg per day. Study was ran for 104 weeks.

Human studies in its favor especially against heart disease and inflammation: https://academic.oup.com/mend/article/17/12/2477/2747399

PPARδ: a dagger in the heart of the metabolic syndrome

Obesity is a growing threat to global health by virtue of its association with insulin resistance, glucose intolerance, hypertension, and dyslipidemia, collectively known as the metabolic syndrome or syndrome X. The nuclear receptors PPARα and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

good spot, meant 10mg, now edited

 

[Renew1]

Human studies in its favor especially against heart disease and inflammation: https://academic.oup.com/mend/article/17/12/2477/2747399
PPARδ: a dagger in the heart of the metabolic syndrome

Maybe I'm missing it ....
I'm not seeing this as human studies.

 

[ssg11111]

Maybe I'm missing it ....
I'm not seeing this as human studies.

What would you call it? I found it to be a meta analysis of studies on humans as well as studies of PPAR agonists and how they effect human systems. They do a bunch of testing and provide data on cardarine's effect on muscle and skeletal cells and more.

 

[Renew1]

What would you call it? I found it to be a meta analysis of studies on humans as well as studies of PPAR agonists and how they effect human systems. They do a bunch of testing and provide data on cardarine's effect on muscle and skeletal cells and more.

In the rat trials, rats were used for testing.
Unless I missed it, no humans were tested upon. I did see some human cell tests.

I haven't seen what @Whisky is referring to, yet.
To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen human trials yet.

.... I just didn't want guys to get the wrong idea here ....

 

[ssg11111]

In the rat trials, rats were used for testing.
Unless I missed it, no humans were tested upon. I did see some human cell tests.

I haven't seen what @Whisky is referring to, yet.
To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen human trials yet.

.... I just didn't want guys to get the wrong idea here ....

Youre good man. Feel free to call it out! I was highlighting the results based on the human cells tests, but you are correct there are a lot of animal tests mixed in to draw conclusions on humans.

Id be curious what MPMD is also referencing. Much of the human studies Ive seen are what I posted. To clarify human studies to me are studies testing with human data and applications. I am in agreement that I have yet to see a human trial.

 

[Renew1]

Youre good man. Feel free to call it out! I was highlighting the results based on the human cells tests, but you are correct there are a lot of animal tests mixed in to draw conclusions on humans.

Id be curious what MPMD is also referencing. Much of the human studies Ive seen are what I posted. To clarify human studies to me are studies testing with human data and applications. I am in agreement that I have yet to see a human trial.

Hopefully, @Whisky will get that info for us, when he has time.

 

[Whisky]

This is the podcast - don’t link the study (doesn’t have any show notes I can see). I’ll have a proper look

 

[Whisky]

And this is the study, it was in humans

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/iohsk/johsk/2021/00000002/00000002/art00006?crawler=true&mimetype=application/pdf

 

[Renew1]

And this is the study, it was in humans

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/iohsk/johsk/2021/00000002/00000002/art00006?crawler=true&mimetype=application/pdf

Thanks man.

I skimmed it, and it looks promising (as I would expect), in it's beneficial effects.

But a study like this couldn't address any possible link to Cancer.

 

[Whisky]

Thanks man.

I skimmed it, and it looks promising (as I would expect), in it's beneficial effects.

But a study like this couldn't address any possible link to Cancer.

nope and I don’t think anyone should claim it doesn’t cause cancer (we simply don’t know)…..but my personal inference is that if the scientific community are ok with testing in humans then it is a positive think when considering the risks.

but this is purely my personal view and clearly there is a lot unknown. For what it is worth I do use it while on a blast at no more than 20mg a day and for no longer than 8 weeks twice a year. Just where I’m personally comfortable

 

[Renew1]

nope and I don’t think anyone should claim it doesn’t cause cancer (we simply don’t know)…..but my personal inference is that if the scientific community are ok with testing in humans then it is a positive think when considering the risks.

but this is purely my personal view and clearly there is a lot unknown. For what it is worth I do use it while on a blast at no more than 20mg a day and for no longer than 8 weeks twice a year. Just where I’m personally comfortable

Yeah, I think you probably know where I currently stand on Cardarine.
I'm not Anti-Cardarine.
I think it is Possible that Cardarine causes Cancer, but I certainly hope not, as I Occasionally use it at 10mgs a day.

I think that anyone considering using it, should research as much as possible, and make their own informed decision.

I feel confident that you approach it in an informed way, I just try to make sure that newer guys (in particular) don't jump to the wrong conclusions when they read something like that.

 

[ssg11111]

nope and I don’t think anyone should claim it doesn’t cause cancer (we simply don’t know)…..but my personal inference is that if the scientific community are ok with testing in humans then it is a positive think when considering the risks.

but this is purely my personal view and clearly there is a lot unknown. For what it is worth I do use it while on a blast at no more than 20mg a day and for no longer than 8 weeks twice a year. Just where I’m personally comfortable

Agree with the bold. I think you are going to see a push for research and approval of these types of compounds as they can be potent weight loss, cholesterol and heart drugs and that is a big drug market. Think we are all on the same page that the cancer risks are pretty unknown, but done in a poor population to draw conclusions for humans (cancer prone rats).

GW0742 seems to have more promise but not counting cardarine out. Have yet to see a place carry it though.

GW0742 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PS: On a personal note, what it does for lipids is just insane. Use it for a couple days and you get the best lipid panels of your life.

 

[Renew1]

PS: On a personal note, what it does for lipids is just insane. Use it for a couple days and you get the best lipid panels of your life.

Please post those comparables, so we can all see it....

 

[ValiantThor08]

Agree with the bold. I think you are going to see a push for research and approval of these types of compounds as they can be potent weight loss, cholesterol and heart drugs and that is a big drug market. Think we are all on the same page that the cancer risks are pretty unknown, but done in a poor population to draw conclusions for humans (cancer prone rats).

GW0742 seems to have more promise but not counting cardarine out. Have yet to see a place carry it though.

GW0742 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PS: On a personal note, what it does for lipids is just insane. Use it for a couple days and you get the best lipid panels of your life.

Board sponsor SupremeLabsUSA Carrie’s 0742

https://******************/

 

[ValiantThor08]

nope and I don’t think anyone should claim it doesn’t cause cancer (we simply don’t know)…..but my personal inference is that if the scientific community are ok with testing in humans then it is a positive think when considering the risks.

but this is purely my personal view and clearly there is a lot unknown. For what it is worth I do use it while on a blast at no more than 20mg a day and for no longer than 8 weeks twice a year. Just where I’m personally comfortable

My thoughts, if it posed a discernible cancer risk in humans, we would have anecdotal evidence from people that have ran cardarine, over the last 2 or 3 decades. Just my thoughts.

 

[Renew1]

My thoughts, if it posed a discernible cancer risk in humans, we would have anecdotal evidence from people that have ran cardarine, over the last 2 or 3 decades. Just my thoughts.

How many Decades have you been running Cardarine?

 

[ValiantThor08]

How many Decades have you been running Cardarine?

Not me, but there have been people running cardarine for decades. I’m not saying anyone has ran cardarine straight for decades. I’m saying there have been people over the course of a few decades that have used cardarine on and off. We have all sorts of anecdotal experiences from people online from various compounds used over the course of decades, but we don’t see people raving of “cardarine“ gave me cancer.

 

[Renew1]

Not me, but there have been people running cardarine for decades. I’m not saying anyone has ran cardarine straight for decades. I’m saying there have been people over the course of a few decades that have used cardarine on and off. We have all sorts of anecdotal experiences from people online from various compounds used over the course of decades, but we don’t see people raving of “cardarine“ gave me cancer.

I also don't see people raving (shouldn't we, given your scenario?), about how, after Decades of use, their body composition is now unbelievable, their cholesterol #s have remained near-perfect for 25-30 years, etc

I'm not saying that it isn't good for those things. I'm also not saying it definitely does, or definitely doesn't cause Cancer.

I'm saying, I don't know guys who've taken this stuff for Decades.
But if I did (again, I don't), even if they got Cancer in 20-30 years of use, they might not attribute it to Cardarine.

 

[ValiantThor08]

I also don't see people raving (shouldn't we, given your scenario?), about how, after Decades of use, their body composition is now unbelievable, their cholesterol #s have remained near-perfect for 25-30 years, etc

I'm not saying that it isn't good for those things. I'm also not saying it definitely does, or definitely doesn't cause Cancer.

I'm saying, I don't know guys who've taken this stuff for Decades.
But if I did (again, I don't), even if they got Cancer in 20-30 years of use, they might not attribute it to Cardarine.

I get it. But those that use PEDs and research chemicals, are usually about the forum life. And anecdotal experiences of PEDs and research chemicals are on the forums, and Reddit, etc. we have side effect experiences from a ton of compounds, from a lot of people, over the course of years. I agree, my idea isn’t conclusive that cardarine doesn’t cause cancer, but it’s also a good sign to not see people online saying they have cancer, and also saying they took cardarine.

 

[Renew1]

I get it. But those that use PEDs and research chemicals, are usually about the forum life. And anecdotal experiences of PEDs and research chemicals are on the forums, and Reddit, etc. we have side effect experiences from a ton of compounds, from a lot of people, over the course of years. I agree, my idea isn’t conclusive that cardarine doesn’t cause cancer, but it’s also a good sign to not see people online saying they have cancer, and also saying they took cardarine.

You didn't seem to understand part of what I was saying.

Given your logic.... It Also seems not to offer Dramatic Good results over Decades of use.

We ARE Forum guys. A Lot of the guys we know are Forum guys.
Yet.... I don't personally know Anyone that has used Cardarine for Decades.

 

[ValiantThor08]

You didn't seem to understand part of what I was saying.

Given your logic.... It Also seems not to offer Dramatic Good results over Decades of use.

We ARE Forum guys. A Lot of the guys we know are Forum guys.
Yet.... I don't personally know Anyone that has used Cardarine for Decades.

Nobody has used it for decades, most likely. I’m saying there are have been people over the course of a few decades that have done maybe 1 cycle of cardarine. I know of one person that has actually continually used cardarine daily for a few years.

 

[Renew1]

Nobody has used it for decades, most likely. I’m saying there are have been people over the course of a few decades that have done maybe 1 cycle of cardarine. I know of one person that has actually continually used cardarine daily for a few years.

You're a good guy.

But I totally disagree with your conclusion.

 

[ValiantThor08]

You're a good guy.

But I totally disagree with your conclusion.

Thanks, and I don’t have a conclusion haha. Just an opinion based on potential anecdotal experiences. I know, that doesn’t hold weight, but it makes me feel good inside lol.

 

[Smont]

Ive used carderine 3-4 times, but only at 10mg for short 4 week bursts.

I'm glad it's back up for research tho. Even if it plays out to be completely safe I'd probably still use it in the fashion I previously had tho

 

[ValiantThor08]

Ive used carderine 3-4 times, but only at 10mg for short 4 week bursts.

I'm glad it's back up for research tho. Even if it plays out to be completely safe I'd probably still use it in the fashion I previously had tho

Right, more comfortable to use shorter term, and reasonable doses. Works well enough at a low dose.

 

[Renew1]

Ive used carderine 3-4 times, but only at 10mg for short 4 week bursts.

I'm glad it's back up for research tho. Even if it plays out to be completely safe I'd probably still use it in the fashion I previously had tho

Me too.

 

[Smont]

Right, more comfortable to use shorter term, and reasonable doses. Works well enough at a low dose.

Ya, the 2 purposes I've used it for was alongside SD and before bed because it's actually a pretty good gda

 

[Smont]

I don't get the cardio benefits from it at all

 

[ValiantThor08]

I don't get the cardio benefits from it at all

You must have an impressive baseline cardio. It’s very noticeable for me at 10mg.

 

[Smont]

You must have an impressive baseline cardio. It’s very noticeable for me at 10mg.

Not really, my cardio is mediocre at best. I struggle to make it through my hour boxing class. Outside that I just walk or do the eliptical for short 15-30min steady state cardio bouts

I was thinking that endurance athletes noticed the cardio benifits more then Joe shmos like me. Or I just don't respond to it that way. I tried 20mg for a week too and got nothing in the form of cardio.

My buddy on the other hand knocked 12 seconds of his mile time after the first dose. He's way more cardio fit then I am by a long shot

 

[Rad83]

You must have an impressive baseline cardio. It’s very noticeable for me at 10mg.

10mg for me too

 

[thebigt]

Not really, my cardio is mediocre at best. I struggle to make it through my hour boxing class. Outside that I just walk or do the eliptical for short 15-30min steady state cardio bouts

I was thinking that endurance athletes noticed the cardio benifits more then Joe shmos like me. Or I just don't respond to it that way. I tried 20mg for a week too and got nothing in the form of cardio.

My buddy on the other hand knocked 12 seconds of his mile time after the first dose. He's way more cardio fit then I am by a long shot

12 seconds off mile time from 1 dose?

if he is a experience runner that is nothing short of amazing...did improvement continue?

 

[Iwilleattuna]

Back when I ran it and logged supreme's cardarine, I experimented with 30mg for a very short period. I barely notice anything at 10mg. 20mg is when endurance hits, small leaning effect and 30 is when I notice some recomp starting to occur, but only did this for like a few days to a week as I was worried about potential harm . No real side effects and heart rate is definitely lower when utilizing it. The rat study is questionable, but for cancer, we'd need human studies using it for years because no one is noticing any sort of cancer development as of yet. Still kinda sketchy. A guy on reddit apparently reversed his heart failure using it.

 

[Smont]

12 seconds off mile time from 1 dose?

12 seconds better then his average mile time, not 12 seconds off his best time ever. But he also beat his best time ever on the first dose. It's 1am where I live so I can't ask him right now but I can find out his exact times tomorrow if you're interested

 

[Iwilleattuna]

There's definitely a nutrient partitioning effect, as well

I honestly believe for body composition, it needs to be ran a little higher which is risky until we have more studies. Most of us are after body composition when running it.

I also wonder if the changes in lipids is just an articial/ temporary change

 

[thebigt]

12 seconds better then his average mile time, not 12 seconds off his best time ever. But he also beat his best time ever on the first dose. It's 1am where I live so I can't ask him right now but I can find out his exact times tomorrow if you're interested

yes, interested...also did improvement continue for entire run or level off? and how long did improvement last after stopping?

 

[Iwilleattuna]

If looking for purely endurance, don't sleep on epicatechin!

 

[Afi140]

Personally Still a little too afraid to pull the trigger on Cardarine. I have a kodiak labs shred sealed I am not gonna use if anyone wants to make a decent offer. It’s a great brand and one I used many times when their sarms were readily available. If not maybe one day I’ll give it a whirl.

 

[jim2509]

Agree with the bold. I think you are going to see a push for research and approval of these types of compounds as they can be potent weight loss, cholesterol and heart drugs and that is a big drug market. Think we are all on the same page that the cancer risks are pretty unknown, but done in a poor population to draw conclusions for humans (cancer prone rats).

GW0742 seems to have more promise but not counting cardarine out. Have yet to see a place carry it though.

GW0742 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PS: On a personal note, what it does for lipids is just insane. Use it for a couple days and you get the best lipid panels of your life.

I think i watched a decent explanation by a guy in US called Seth Williams on You Tube about GW0742 where he explained that GW0742 could be worse than GW50156...something to do with the differences in PPAR activation. Whether GW50156 causes cancer in humans?? The one positive i take from it is that its been used for over 20 years by people and i personally haven't yet seen any literature or publications of anyone's use being specifically linked to cancer? That's not to say it's safe, just that we dont know, so i hope more research is being done and fingers crossed its a game changer.

 

[Whisky]

Just as a general observation, whether GW ‘causes’ cancer may never be answered or technically even be the right question to ask.

as far as I know there is still a massive amount of unknowns around cancers and what directly causes them, it seems in many cases correlation rather than causation is what’s been established.

then there is the difference between the initial cause of the dna mutation in cells and the subsequent proliferation of the cancer growth, for example the activation of Mtor (something we are all acutely aware of and probably mostly something we try to do a lot) is pretty clearly linked to cancerous cell growth I seem to recall eating bacon being linked to cancer not so long ago…….

I guess my point is that at this stage we couldn’t possibly know if GW has any link to cancer in humans and if it did what pathway it exhibited its effect via. It could be it accelerates growth only when the cancer has been causes by something else, it could directly cause it, it could contribute to something else which causes the cancer.

But, any newbie should know that any of the newer compounds we take (I include SARMS in that) carry unknown risks and no one should put anything like that in their body without doing the appropriate research and making their own mind up

 

[johnny412]

I don't get the cardio benefits from it at all

me neither!

 

[Smont]

If you live in the US then I'm sure you have noticed that just about every product sold has a warning on the back that says "this product is known to cause cancer in the state of California".

What I'm getting at is if you look hard enough you can probably find a study about anything and everything that links it to cancer.

Honestly I'm not even really worried about whether or not carderine causes cancer. I use to do a lot of things that cause cancer, worked in a nuclear power plant for 4-6 months out of the year for like 8 to 10 years in a row. I regularly had to do fire watches where I would have to get suited up and go through contamination areas. I even spent two weeks one time where I was part of the crew that put the lead shielding over the highest contaminated areas

So if I'm going to get cancer it's probably not going to be from the carderine

 

[Beau]

Thanks, and I don’t have a conclusion haha. Just an opinion based on potential anecdotal experiences. I know, that doesn’t hold weight, but it makes me feel good inside lol.

I very much enjoy exchanges of information and opinion and am pleased when people have differing opinions and are still gentlemanly (I know, that's sexist).

This is a good example on an appropriate and respectful "agreement to disagree".

Thanks to you both.

 

[Hyde]

Subbing for discussion.

I personally see endurance rise in 10mg, 20mg is better but I only dose that acutely rarely.

I have done 10mg m/day probably twice a year for 6-10 weeks at a time the last few years. I do not exceed 8 weeks any more out of extra caution.

I thing it’s a poor risk/reward for the metabolic/recomp goals.

I feel it shines as an acute preWO aid for things like strongman, cross training, cardio/running,

-OR-

daily near contest to improve blood markers and ability to get through training near a contest when harsh winding compounds like Tren or orals are in the picture.

Both of those scenarios would be limiting total exposure to a much larger degree than trying to use it chronically in place of something like Metformin or SR.

 

[Jbryfit1]

Cardarine works great for a big boost in endurance. 15mg* all you need. -jbry