Can Boosting Immune System Stop Covid-19?

Aleksandar37

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Yes, so should we listen Anderson Copper and Wolf Blitzer....or the world renown Lupus doctor?
You found one physician who isn't an expert in virology and he said none of his patients have had COVID-19 yet. Great, but ask him if he believes in clinical trials. He works at Sinai so I can probably guess his answer.
 
Aleksandar37

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No one is saying it is 100% safe without any risk. Even Trump isn't saying that. He is saying in the extreme case that someone has this untreatable disease, with no other options, it is worth a shot.
That's simply not true. Trump has said that it could be used as a preventative measure, which is being echoed on Fox by Dr. Oz.
 
Aleksandar37

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I can't take this seriously. Especially after the trials in France have stopped due to cadiac issues.
Do you happen to know how long patients were on drug in that trial? It's concerning, but might not be an issue with COVID-19 patients who only need to take it acutely.
 
justhere4comm

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Do you happen to know how long patients were on drug in that trial? It's concerning, but might not be an issue with COVID-19 patients who only need to take it acutely.
This is all I have at the moment:


Professor Émile Ferrari heads the cardiology department at the Pasteur hospital in Nice. He returned to the hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin association in the context of severe forms of Covid-19.

The CHU de Nice, like other establishments, is testing the hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin combination in patients hospitalized with severe forms of Covid-19. How are these patients followed from a cardiological point of view?
"We have set up a 7/7 and H24 monitoring method; all the Covid sectors of the Nice University Hospital send us the patient's ECG [electrocardiogram, ed] recordings. We interpret them live and report anomalies to them which predispose to toxicity. And which then require a cessation of treatment. "

Has this ever happened?

"Yes, from the start of the trial. Thanks to this ECG follow-up, we highlighted the major risks of a very serious accident in a patient, and the treatment was immediately stopped."

How is this toxic risk on the heart explained?
"The cells of the heart have a spontaneous electrical activity, which makes it possible to generate the cardiac contraction. This activation happens a little like an alternating current with a phase of contraction and a phase of recovery. These phases are ordered and successive. or certain conditions can desynchronize these phases. It can then cause chaos, a big disorder in the electric current of the cells of the heart with a risk of "short circuit"; the heart rate is racing, it is disordered, which does not allows the heart muscle to be more efficient. The subsequent drop in blood flow then causes dizziness, malaise, syncope ... up to cardiac arrest which are the translation of serious arrhythmias. "

Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are widely prescribed despite these risks ...
"When hydroxychloroquine is given on its own, the cardiac risk is very low. On the other hand, the antibiotic (azithromycin) which is systematically prescribed in combination with hydroxychloroquine in the anti-Covid protocol also favors these anomalies. The cardiological risk is then potentiated, a fortiori, if there are other associated drugs which have the same undesirable effect, if the oxygenation of the blood is not done well or even if the potassium in the blood is low. Also, these drugs, if prescribed, must be with a monitoring of the ECG at D0 and D2 minimum. "

Your personal opinion on this cocktail?
"It is true that Covid-19 kills, but the remedy should not be more harmful than the disease itself in patients whose spontaneous evolution is favorable and in particular in ambulatory patients."


Pr Emile Ferrari, head of the cardiology department of the Nice University Hospital. Photo DR
 
manifesto

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That's the video I found too and isn't him saying it's safe. We don't know the safety because the trials haven't been run yet. It also takes a proven medication away from lupus patients, which Dr. Wallace did comment on:

"An estimated 70 to 80 percent of lupus patients in the U.S. are taking hydroxychloroquine, Dr. Daniel J. Wallace, a board-certified rheumatologist and co-founder of a lupus foundation in Los Angeles, Lupus LA, told Fox News. He said many of his patients are also experiencing difficulty in getting the much-needed medication.

“There are backorders of Plaquenil. Many of my patients who get a three-month supply are now only given a one-month supply. Among those who are getting any at all, they’re not always getting their full order,” he said.

In LA specifically, “Pharmacies are back-ordering and there are a few pharmacies that are putting some of the drugs aside for patients who are good patients and know they have lupus," he added. "For those with new prescriptions, I have been asked by a few pharmacies to write a note to document that a patient really has lupus."


So no, don't get medical advice from CNN or MSNBC, but also don't get it from Fox either. Listen to physicians and researchers who don't spend their time on television speaking outside of their expertise.
I'm not getting anything from Fox.

Also, there are multiple treatments for Lupus...my mother had Lupus which is currently dormant. There are several options available to suppress thenimmine system.....

I think its worth using the drug to save some lives from covid19, and providing the Lupus patients with an alternate treatment for the time being...

And he did say the drug was safe....? What have you been reading/watching?
 
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manifesto

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You found one physician who isn't an expert in virology and he said none of his patients have had COVID-19 yet. Great, but ask him if he believes in clinical trials. He works at Sinai so I can probably guess his answer.
I didnt find him...he made his presence known on the topic...and yeah, I'm sure he believes in clinical trials...but the people dying dont have time to wait for that.
 
Aleksandar37

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I'm not getting anything from Fox.

Also, there are multiple treatments for Lupus...my mother had Lupus which is currently dormant. There are several options available to suppress thenimmine system.....

I think its worth using the drug to save some lives from covid19, and provided the Lupus patients with an alternate treatment for the time being...

And he did say the drug was safe....? What have you been reading/watching?
Show me where he says that. And where did you hear or read his quote if it wasn't on Fox? Post a link and I'll gladly read or watch whatever. It's just weird that you picked a lupus expert since lupus patients don't have representative immune systems of the rest of the population that would be taking this drug. If you're choosing from Sinai, why not Roham Zamanian or Victor Tapson, who is actually on a COVID-19 drug trial?

Again, from the physician you're quoting. "An estimated 70 to 80 percent of lupus patients in the U.S. are taking hydroxychloroquine." They're taking it because it's been clinically proven to work in lupus patients. It has not been clinically proven to work in COVID-19 patients. If you have trial data that I don't know about, please put up a link. As of now though you're suggesting to take a drug away from people who benefit from it to use in people that might benefit from it based on no solid data.
 
manifesto

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The liberal media is arguing that the drug is dangerous.
 
Aleksandar37

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This is all I have at the moment:


Professor Émile Ferrari heads the cardiology department at the Pasteur hospital in Nice. He returned to the hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin association in the context of severe forms of Covid-19.
Cool, thanks. I'll look and see if I can find anything, but I'd like to know comorbidities of the patients and how long they were on drug for. If they were "severe" then they might have a lot of existing issues, but still something to look at.
 
justhere4comm

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The liberal media is arguing that the drug is dangerous.
It is dangerous.
Trump said: "What have you got to lose?"
The President of the AMA "You could lose your life"

No liberal media bias in that statement.
If you don't watch the "liberal" media, where do you get your news from?
 
Aleksandar37

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The liberal media is arguing that the drug is dangerous.
The liberal media is arguing that the drug is unproven, but it really doesn't matter what the liberal or conservative media says. You should be getting information from trial data, which is where a physician would get their information in addition to any official guidelines published within their field.
 
justhere4comm

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What about the Lupus expert, Dr. Daniel Wallace...he says the drug is safe...
I can't let go of this doctor and his stating 800 patients since September 2019 and no Covid-19

Here are some numbers to demonstrate the odds of them even encountering Covid-19

2020
First Covid-19 person January 15, 2020

February 7: 0 deaths
March 7: 19 deaths
April 7: 12,893 deaths

His interview with Dr. Oz was when?
How many patients can we now deduce were seen post Covid-19 exposures? 400? 300? 200?
How does he know they didn't have it?
Apparently quite a few people think they had the lessor strain and didn't realize it.
Quite a few people have had it and thought it the flu, and got better.

His patients; their locations; predispositions, etc.
This is not a good example to support the drug they take for Lupus.

I'm just extrapolating information from what he stated.
 
sns8778

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I'm not getting anything from Fox.

Also, there are multiple treatments for Lupus...my mother had Lupus which is currently dormant. There are several options available to suppress thenimmine system.....

I think its worth using the drug to save some lives from covid19, and providing the Lupus patients with an alternate treatment for the time being...

And he did say the drug was safe....? What have you been reading/watching?
I'm not getting involved in the political argument part of this thread.

I'm quoting the post to say that I hope that your mother continues to be doing well. I have a complicated autoimmune issue myself and they at first thought it was Lupus; so I just wanted to pass on my well wishes for her.

I was familiar with hydroxychloroquine for Lupus and Malaria many years ago. I've actually used it myself before teaching in Uganda years ago for anti-malaria purposes and experienced no side effects. Everyone is different; I'm just sharing my experience as probably one of few in the thread that may have taken it personally.
 
manifesto

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I'm not getting involved in the political argument part of this thread.

I'm quoting the post to say that I hope that your mother continues to be doing well. I have a complicated autoimmune issue myself and they at first thought it was Lupus; so I just wanted to pass on my well wishes for her.

I was familiar with hydroxychloroquine for Lupus and Malaria many years ago. I've actually used it myself before teaching in Uganda years ago for anti-malaria purposes and experienced no side effects. Everyone is different; I'm just sharing my experience as probably one of few in the thread that may have taken it personally.
Thank you, sir. She is doing ok. She also has severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, which is another battle.

Her Lupus first manifested as a rash on her back, which turned into her skin peeling off. My dad and I were forced to learn about auto immune system. She was prescribed Cellcept for several years...then it just went dormant...

Thanks again for the well wishes.
 
Aleksandar37

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I can't let go of this doctor and his stating 800 patients since September 2019 and no Covid-19

Here are some numbers to demonstrate the odds of them even encountering Covid-19

2020
First Covid-19 person January 15, 2020

February 7: 0 deaths
March 7: 19 deaths
April 7: 12,893 deaths

His interview with Dr. Oz was when?
How many patients can we now deduce were seen post Covid-19 exposures? 400? 300? 200?
How does he know they didn't have it?
Apparently quite a few people think they had the lessor strain and didn't realize it.
Quite a few people have had it and thought it the flu, and got better.

His patients; their locations; predispositions, etc.
This is not a good example to support the drug they take for Lupus.

I'm just extrapolating information from what he stated.
Let it go man; it's not worth it. He's not even being honest about where he saw the doctor, so if he's going to lie about something stupid like that, don't expect a rational conversation.
 
Iwilleattuna

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Afraid of the side effects of hydroxychloroquine for treating symptoms of what they consider the worse virus that ever existed, yet they have no problem using chemotherapy and prescribing SSRI? LOL
 
LeanEngineer

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Afraid of the side effects of hydroxychloroquine for treating symptoms of what they consider the worse virus that ever existed, yet they have no problem using chemotherapy and prescribing SSRI? LOL
I was kind of thinking the same thing haha I guess you gotta trust the experts on this one.
 

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I’m not gonna get involved in the politics here but the reality is nobody here can just go buy HCQ anyway so it’s kind of a moot point whose right/wrong.

Back to the subject of immunity. I’ve read a couple of interesting things like:

1. Overweight people seem to get hit hard by this
2. Diabetes is the worst comorbidity with this
3. Seen at least 3 GDA’s have antiviral properties in research - oxymatrine, Ecklonia, berberine

If the 3 ingredients above share nothing in common (not related so to speak), is it plausible that optimising glucose tolerance could be the thing we should focus on most?
 
justhere4comm

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That's it. I'm giving up drinking for a month.
That came out wrong.

I'm giving up. Drinking for a month.
 
manifesto

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Let it go man; it's not worth it. He's not even being honest about where he saw the doctor, so if he's going to lie about something stupid like that, don't expect a rational conversation.
I'm lying about where I saw the doctor?

I've been knowing about this man for years since my mother was diagnosed with Lupus...I live in southern california, not far from Cedar Sinai. He has been asked several times over the years about the safety of these immuno suppressive drugs, and more recently HCQ...he has said flat out the side effects are "nill."

He has not made any guarantees about it curing or preventing covid19, but he felt obligated to address the fear mongering. The liberal media would have us think Trump is pushing this dangerous drug because hes in it for the money.....

That's how sick the liberals are. They hate Trump so much, theh would rather see people die and the country collapse, than he get re-elected.
 
justhere4comm

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This is one hell of a read, and over my head for sure, but it's more in line with clinical analysis than anyone could probably hope to look at instead of some doctor on television saying "no sides, nil" or otherwise. There are a few key points being made; one of which speaks to creating a demand for a yet unproven drug thereby making others who currently use the drug suffer.

There is in fact a shortage of the drug. We didn't learn our lesson with the entire toilet paper; hand sanitizer; and bottled water fiasco? Human beings in general are animals demonstrating the hunt and gather; now hoard mentality when faced with an unknown and invisible enemy.

I respect this being a place to vent one's frustrations, and do not hold it against my fellow members, but level heads must prevail.

You have to register to read, but it's free.

Linked from this page. (FDA)

I can't locate my source of information, but it was speaking to the dose given to Covid-19 patients being double that of those having Lupus. That may play a role in increasing side effects known or unknown but experienced. Can anyone verify the dose being given to Covid-19 patients? 200-400mg are given to Lupus patients. In those seeking to prevent Malaria they are given an initial dose of 800mg, then it's tapered down.
 
HIT4ME

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There are cardiac sides that are considered too dangerous for seriously ill patients.

A small trial finds that hydroxychloroquine is not effective for treating coronavirus. (April 3)



Coronavirus: "we have already had to stop treatment" of hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin at the CHU in Nice


(April 7)





Professor Émile Ferrari heads the cardiology department at the Pasteur hospital in Nice. He returned to the hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin association in the context of severe forms of Covid-19.


The CHU de Nice, like other establishments, is testing the hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin combination in patients hospitalized with severe forms of Covid-19. How are these patients followed from a cardiological point of view?



"We have set up a 7/7 and H24 monitoring method; all the Covid sectors of the Nice University Hospital send us the patient's ECG [electrocardiogram, ed] recordings. We interpret them live and report anomalies to them which predispose to toxicity. And which then require a cessation of treatment. "

Has this ever happened?


"Yes, from the start of the trial. Thanks to this ECG follow-up, we highlighted the major risks of a very serious accident in a patient, and the treatment was immediately stopped."

How is this toxic risk on the heart explained?


"The cells of the heart have a spontaneous electrical activity, which makes it possible to generate the cardiac contraction. This activation happens a little like an alternating current with a phase of contraction and a phase of recovery. These phases are ordered and successive. or certain conditions can desynchronize these phases. It can then cause chaos, a big disorder in the electric current of the cells of the heart with a risk of "short circuit"; the heart rate is racing, it is disordered, which does not allows the heart muscle to be more efficient. The subsequent drop in blood flow then causes dizziness, malaise, syncope ... up to cardiac arrest which are the translation of serious arrhythmias. "

Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are widely prescribed despite these risks ...


"When hydroxychloroquine is given on its own, the cardiac risk is very low. On the other hand, the antibiotic (azithromycin) which is systematically prescribed in combination with hydroxychloroquine in the anti-Covid protocol also favors these anomalies. The cardiological risk is then potentiated, a fortiori, if there are other associated drugs which have the same undesirable effect, if the oxygenation of the blood is not done well or even if the potassium in the blood is low. Also, these drugs, if prescribed, must be with a monitoring of the ECG at D0 and D2 minimum. "


Your personal opinion on this cocktail?


"It is true that Covid-19 kills, but the remedy should not be more harmful than the disease itself in patients whose spontaneous evolution is favorable and in particular in ambulatory patients."


Pr Emile Ferrari, head of the cardiology department of the Nice University Hospital. Photo DR

Who to believe?

hydroxychloroquine is made by a small pharma company in France.

--

I hope they come up with something promising soon because the mortality rate in the USA


I've sen it go to 2.4 to 2.7, and now 3.2% with 400k infected and 12,800 deaths. This entire


stay at home process appears to be taking it's own toll on many.


I am with you on some parts here – but some things I feel you are taking way out of context.

I agree that I hope we find something soon. I agree that there is some evidence that shows Hydroxychloroquine may not work. It just may not, which is why we need trials and more information specific to this disease.

But I think you are really focused in on the fact that Trump is for it, which has actually helped to make those trials happen. You actually posted an article with a doctor saying the FDA’s actions in this case were “very unusual”. I know that person thought that was a shot at Trump, but it actually speaks to his actions that he is getting things TRIED and trying to save lives rather than just sit back and wait for the normal system to take its course, which will take years.

As further evidence of this, Trump is publicized for saying we should try chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine and you are unusually vocal against its use – but why aren’t you so vocal about the Azithromycin use? Z-Pac is used all the time for non-life threatening situations and has similar risks. But, you know, you could lose your life. But you’re not so vocal against that drug? Have you wondered why that is? The real difference is that we have all heard of Azithromycin even if Trump never said it. A lot of us have probably never heard of Chloroquine before Covid and him supporting it has made it even more well known of course.

More to the point, you keep quoting, “What do you have to lose?” as if that was said in some cavalier fashion. He was talking about people dying from Covid-19 and having no other options. You either lay there and die, or you try this – what do you have to lose? So, in that context, the response, “Your life” is actually one of the dumbest things you could possible say – your life is already circling the drain here. But yeah, keep taking it out of context.

And of course your quote, “Your life” is also out of context because it was not in a conversation with the president, it’s a totally different interview where presentations like, “Trump said, ‘what do you have to lose” will illicit such a response outside of context.

And, yeah, the remedy cannot be worse than the disease. So, is this disease worse than malaria? Or even on par with malaria? Because, it is pretty well established that malaria is way worse than this remedy. Not established in a petri dish like quercetin, but established in actual human beings with controlled studies (Ok – I am assuming here because it has FDA approval, I haven’t looked at the studies).

We have to find a cure AS FAST AS WE CAN. That means we are going to have to fail A LOT, and fail FAST. I am not giving Trump full credit for getting these trials that we do have underway, but he certainly helped promote them. And it may not work. And if it fails – then one failure out of the way, onto the next and let’s get to it quickly.

From what I’ve seen I think it will fail, I am skeptical. But I could be wrong, and I hope I am. It would be nice to hit it out of the park early.

More coming...10,000 words and all...
 
maximillia

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HCQ should be tried on all patients who are losing the battle, and in all cases where the patient consents. That's just common sense. If I get it, I want my HCQ and I don't care about your trials and your evidence. If I can inject a gram of Tren and my Bro's aren't stopping me, I can take HCQ. People have taken it for years for Christ's sake. I feel that Covid is making people more stupid than sick. It's everywhere. This weird extra sensitivity. On this forum, people literally self medicate with blood tests! They manage all their biomarkers in real time!, and now, HCQ is too unsafe?!! Sorry for ranting, but do you feel me? Why wouldn't you try a potential med? what V tach? so? do you how many risks I have taken already? Come, feed me milk and help me get to sleep. Come on man. When Ronnie Coleman was actively shortening his lifespan infront of our eyes, did these well meaning people do or say anything? Nope. Nothing. Zilch. It was his choice. To become a cripple. Well worth it, even. BUT somehow, this deadly terrible no good pandemic we are all going to die virus from the Orient (tm) - NOW we just cannot take any risks, think about the people! In fact, take them all and put them in a camp and call it the Good Auschwitz and assign guards who ensure they never pick their nose. There, that's better. For Christ's sake. Stop playing Politics with this. Socialists. Won't. Ever. Change.

AND. From multiple reports all over the world- it does something. Maybe not for everybody, but for enough people. Don't even start about trials. It DOES something. You can find out what with trials later all you want, if you care about people so much. I would rather all desperate patients got this drug right away and right now. Period.
 
HIT4ME

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When the serology tests are finished and the infected ends up being in the millions you will see the death rate drop big time. A good chunk of the deaths classified as Corona deaths are from other causes but because the person tested positive that is counted.

If I get covid and have a bad case I'll be taking z-pack which i have taken many times and hydroxycloriquine which is taken by the millions each year. Not a political decision. Its sick people are rooting for this drug to fail
I hope you are right, but you are just ignoring the data we DO have because it is imperfect. Basically you're placing more weight on the speculation side of things than on the actual data. We have people tracking this data who are well aware of the relatively simple math involved with the involvement of any untested people. Hoping there's millions of people out there who are asymptomatic because it will bring down the death rate is just hope at this point.

That's the video I found too and isn't him saying it's safe. We don't know the safety because the trials haven't been run yet. It also takes a proven medication away from lupus patients, which Dr. Wallace did comment on:

"An estimated 70 to 80 percent of lupus patients in the U.S. are taking hydroxychloroquine, Dr. Daniel J. Wallace, a board-certified rheumatologist and co-founder of a lupus foundation in Los Angeles, Lupus LA, told Fox News. He said many of his patients are also experiencing difficulty in getting the much-needed medication.

“There are backorders of Plaquenil. Many of my patients who get a three-month supply are now only given a one-month supply. Among those who are getting any at all, they’re not always getting their full order,” he said.

In LA specifically, “Pharmacies are back-ordering and there are a few pharmacies that are putting some of the drugs aside for patients who are good patients and know they have lupus," he added. "For those with new prescriptions, I have been asked by a few pharmacies to write a note to document that a patient really has lupus."

So no, don't get medical advice from CNN or MSNBC, but also don't get it from Fox either. Listen to physicians and researchers who don't spend their time on television speaking outside of their expertise.
So, I get where you're coming from - we don't know the safety in covid because there are no covid specific trials. But that is true of every drug out there at this point and we have people dying, so following the normal research and approval process is a luxury that those people don't have. And we DO have a lot of safety data on this drug, in humans, outside of covid. I think the safety thing is getting way overblown in the context of using it under medical supervision once you are diagnosed with Covid.

Having said that, again, I can agree it may not work or it may need to be used early on, etc. - and in the sickest patients there may be contraindications unfortunately.

Now, on the limited supply side - I agree that taken a proven drug away from the patients it has been proven to treat merely to stockpile or hoard out of fear is irrational and sad. I get there may be some limitations in availability because of treatments and trials going on - but hopefully they are all going to covid patients that have been assessed and are being treated; getting your doctor to fill a script because you are afraid is stupid. Just stay away from people.

As far as the CNN vs. physicians comments - mostly agree. But you should asses all ideas on their merits, not on who says them. I mean, all the doctors ridiculed Ignaz Samuelweis because they took what he suggested as a personal attack on their skill and look at what we are telling everyone now.


You found one physician who isn't an expert in virology and he said none of his patients have had COVID-19 yet. Great, but ask him if he believes in clinical trials. He works at Sinai so I can probably guess his answer.
No, but he is like many others who are experts in clinical application of Hydroxychloroquine, so surely that counts for something? I am sure he is all for clinical trials specific to Covid, but the reason this drug has been suggested is because it is used all over the world, readily available, and has a proven safety profile. Not saying it is 100% safe - but we know the profile.
 
HIT4ME

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That's simply not true. Trump has said that it could be used as a preventative measure, which is being echoed on Fox by Dr. Oz.
Saying "could be used as a preventative measure" is fine. Maybe it can be. We use it for prevention of malaria. That's still not telling everyone they should go out and get it right now. Unless there is a quote somewhere that I am missing, I haven't seen it.

I don't watch Dr. Oz. I have enough trouble keeping up with all the stupid things Trump says or didn't say, etc. I get my medical advices from Dr. Phil. (obviously kidding)

I'm not getting anything from Fox.

Also, there are multiple treatments for Lupus...my mother had Lupus which is currently dormant. There are several options available to suppress thenimmine system.....

I think its worth using the drug to save some lives from covid19, and providing the Lupus patients with an alternate treatment for the time being...

And he did say the drug was safe....? What have you been reading/watching?
Sorry to hear about your mom man. My GF has a relatively rare autoimmune disorder known as pemphigus. A couple years ago she had a rash that just got worse and worse until we ended up in the ER with all the nurses doing double takes and staring because none of them had ever seen anything like it before. Her skin was falling off and you could literally just slough it off around the rashes that had formed. It was scary. Fortunately, the doctor that saw her HAD seen it before and knew pretty quickly what it was. Glad she is in remission. Autoimmune diseases are strange to say the least...
 
HIT4ME

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It is dangerous.

Trump said: "What have you got to lose?"

The President of the AMA "You could lose your life"

No liberal media bias in that statement.

If you don't watch the "liberal" media, where do you get your news from?
There IS liberal bias in that statement. Show me the transcript of the conversation with Trump and the President of the AMA saying that. It wasn't a conversation or a debate. It's taking things out of context.

Are you implying that if you get Covid, and you go to the hospital, and they want to put you on Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin that you should turn it down because you could die? Because, you are beating this drum so loudly it seems like that's what you are saying.

No one is saying it without any risk.

The liberal media is arguing that the drug is unproven, but it really doesn't matter what the liberal or conservative media says. You should be getting information from trial data, which is where a physician would get their information in addition to any official guidelines published within their field.
I actually feel like the media has two roads they are going down. One road is, they are over-presenting any positive trials with this drug (it gives false hope). To a lot of laymen out there, I am sure they think there are dozens of "trials" going on because the same 2-3 sources keep getting repeated over and over as if they're different or new. And it is really hard to find any failures or skepticism among the coverage of the clinical trials (at least relative to getting hit over the head with HCQ being a potential cure constantly).

The other side is how moronic Trump is for pushing an unproven drug. And I think that is part of the reason they want to keep pushing all the positive news over and over - they keep it relevant as long as possible. It's not even necessarily a liberal/conservative thing as much as it is manipulating readership. If we post something may be a ray of hope, it will be relevant and people will want to know more. And if we bash Trump, it will make it even more interesting and people will want to know more. And suddenly we have people reading the same stuff over and over and we get the clicks.

But I agree with you 100% that it shouldn't be a political thing at all. It should be about the merit, which requires actual experiment and observation. Without that, they are just hypothetical ideas.
 
HIT4ME

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I’m not gonna get involved in the politics here but the reality is nobody here can just go buy HCQ anyway so it’s kind of a moot point whose right/wrong.

Back to the subject of immunity. I’ve read a couple of interesting things like:

1. Overweight people seem to get hit hard by this
2. Diabetes is the worst comorbidity with this
3. Seen at least 3 GDA’s have antiviral properties in research - oxymatrine, Ecklonia, berberine

If the 3 ingredients above share nothing in common (not related so to speak), is it plausible that optimising glucose tolerance could be the thing we should focus on most?
Actually, I was looking at metformin and it has some anti-viral data - although probably far from proven. I was surprised not to find it being mentioned. But then I did see it mentioned - apparently the combination of metformin/hydroxychloroquine is pretty deadly in mice. It was a recent, well timed study - since diabetics are likely to be on metformin and are THE high risk group. If they show up and start getting HCQ on top of it, it could be a problem.

But on the same hand - not sure we really need a run on metformin as everyone starts taking it pre-emptively either.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2020/04/05/researchers-warn-that-covid-19-treatment-touted-by-trump-may-be-toxic-when-combined-with-diabetes-drug/#70b9e84b55f8
 
HIT4ME

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And finally, just to poke the bear @justhere4comm -

A study that shows decreased cardiovascular events in Rheumatoid Arthritis Patients:
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/JAHA.115.002867

Like I said...it's far from perfect, but I'm poking the bear here.


Also, here is what the American College of Cardiology has to say about HCQ/Azithromycin for Covid-19:

https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/articles/2020/03/27/14/00/ventricular-arrhythmia-risk-due-to-hydroxychloroquine-azithromycin-treatment-for-covid-19

This one may have something for both of us in it...
 
justhere4comm

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Bonus points for "Poking the Bear".
My niece calls me Bear. . .

Thank you for your posts.
(I've got some reading.)
 
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HCQ should be tried on all patients who are losing the battle, and in all cases where the patient consents. That's just common sense. If I get it, I want my HCQ and I don't care about your trials and your evidence. If I can inject a gram of Tren and my Bro's aren't stopping me, I can take HCQ. People have taken it for years for Christ's sake. I feel that Covid is making people more stupid than sick. It's everywhere. This weird extra sensitivity. On this forum, people literally self medicate with blood tests! They manage all their biomarkers in real time!, and now, HCQ is too unsafe?!! Sorry for ranting, but do you feel me? Why wouldn't you try a potential med? what V tach? so? do you how many risks I have taken already? Come, feed me milk and help me get to sleep. Come on man. When Ronnie Coleman was actively shortening his lifespan infront of our eyes, did these well meaning people do or say anything? Nope. Nothing. Zilch. It was his choice. To become a cripple. Well worth it, even. BUT somehow, this deadly terrible no good pandemic we are all going to die virus from the Orient (tm) - NOW we just cannot take any risks, think about the people! In fact, take them all and put them in a camp and call it the Good Auschwitz and assign guards who ensure they never pick their nose. There, that's better. For Christ's sake. Stop playing Politics with this. Socialists. Won't. Ever. Change.

AND. From multiple reports all over the world- it does something. Maybe not for everybody, but for enough people. Don't even start about trials. It DOES something. You can find out what with trials later all you want, if you care about people so much. I would rather all desperate patients got this drug right away and right now. Period.
So here is where people like Aleksander and Justhere are on a good path with skepticism - we don't know that it does anything. We have some anecdotal reports of doctors saying it may do something - but doctors often think something works and it is really useless. They are not infallible. If they have someone they think is going to die and they give them something, and that person miraculously survives - what are they going to think? Of course they will think it works. But they have no control - that person may have survived anyway.

And the risk of abandoning all skepticism is that we start giving everyone this drug that doesn't work - when we could be using something that does. I'm on your side and think we should be trying everything we can - but I'm also all for getting all the trials we can as quickly as possible.

Ideally we would have trials and safety data, etc. - and THEN be giving people what works. I get that. And I know this is not an ideal situation so we have to probably abandon some of that - but that doesn't mean we just start wasting efforts throwing sh*t against the wall.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find more than 2 studies showing any optimism for HCQ in Covid. Even 2 may be hard. And I know the one that keeps getting quoted can't even get past a peer review.
 
manifesto

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Trump=the devil

#endthread
 
Aleksandar37

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I'm lying about where I saw the doctor?

I've been knowing about this man for years since my mother was diagnosed with Lupus...I live in southern california, not far from Cedar Sinai. He has been asked several times over the years about the safety of these immuno suppressive drugs, and more recently HCQ...he has said flat out the side effects are "nill."

He has not made any guarantees about it curing or preventing covid19, but he felt obligated to address the fear mongering. The liberal media would have us think Trump is pushing this dangerous drug because hes in it for the money.....

That's how sick the liberals are. They hate Trump so much, theh would rather see people die and the country collapse, than he get re-elected.
You just happen to mention the one doctor that Fox is highlighting on the very same day. If it's just a coincidence, then yet again I'm asking for a single link but I'm guessing you're full of crap. And this is your MO: spout bs and follow it up with a random rant about the liberals.
 
Aleksandar37

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Saying "could be used as a preventative measure" is fine. Maybe it can be. We use it for prevention of malaria. That's still not telling everyone they should go out and get it right now. Unless there is a quote somewhere that I am missing, I haven't seen it.
Can/could is not the same as may/maybe, especially in medicine. This isn't me being picky; I deal with pharma lawyers on a daily basis and they always jump on this word choice. "Could be used" means that it works.

But even ignoring the wording, there are a lot of people that look to Trump for what to do, as they should since he's the President. However, he has repeatedly given conflicting information that is sometimes flat out wrong and has to be corrected later by others in his administration or on twitter. So now you have people going to their physicians demanding this drug. If you're at a larger institution, you have more leverage to tell patients that the drug isn't right for them. If you're a community doc, like most physicians, then you're going to prescribe the drug because you know that if you don't, that patient is going to go across the street and get it from another physician.
 
Aleksandar37

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No, but he is like many others who are experts in clinical application of Hydroxychloroquine, so surely that counts for something? I am sure he is all for clinical trials specific to Covid, but the reason this drug has been suggested is because it is used all over the world, readily available, and has a proven safety profile. Not saying it is 100% safe - but we know the profile.
Of his opinion counts, now let's hear from others, especially those that treat patients with normal immune systems. Has there been a completed trial at the dosing required for COVID-19? Malaria treatment is once a week. The recommended dosing schedules I've seen for COVID-19 are that same dose, but twice a day for 10 days. You can't compare safety for those two schedules.
 
Aleksandar37

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Trump=the devil

#endthread
Trump isn't the devil and he isn't a doctor. Pence gave the best response when asked if he would take hydrochloroquine if he got sick. He answered, “I would follow the advice of my physician and I would recommend that approach to every single American.”
 
justhere4comm

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Of his opinion counts, now let's hear from others, especially those that treat patients with normal immune systems. Has there been a completed trial at the dosing required for COVID-19? Malaria treatment is once a week. The recommended dosing schedules I've seen for COVID-19 are that same dose, but twice a day for 10 days. You can't compare safety for those two schedules.
That's what I asked regarding dosing protocols.
We all know the more you dose, the more sides there are. Some can be deadly.
 
justhere4comm

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Trump isn't the devil and he isn't a doctor. Pence gave the best response when asked if he would take hydrochloroquine if he got sick. He answered, “I would follow the advice of my physician and I would recommend that approach to every single American.”
Again, I got jumped when stating my thoughts about Trump and in a final statement said, I'd rather Pence was POTUS.
Odd how the same message gets received when delivered by different people. No?

But, Trump is the devil's BFF.
 
manifesto

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Again, I got jumped when stating my thoughts about Trump and in a final statement said, I'd rather Pence was POTUS.
Odd how the same message gets received when delivered by different people. No?

But, Trump is the devil's BFF.
I love you guys...haha keeps me from getting bored.
 
Aleksandar37

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Again, I got jumped when stating my thoughts about Trump and in a final statement said, I'd rather Pence was POTUS.
Odd how the same message gets received when delivered by different people. No?

But, Trump is the devil's BFF.
TDS works both ways. Somebody legitimately cares about climate change? That's an attack on Trump! Somebody legitimately cares about use of a drug that a lot of people are now talking about? That's an attack on Trump!
 
manifesto

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You just happen to mention the one doctor that Fox is highlighting on the very same day. If it's just a coincidence, then yet again I'm asking for a single link but I'm guessing you're full of crap. And this is your MO: spout bs and follow it up with a random rant about the liberals.
I'll have to try to find links, but I have heard of this Dr. for many years because my moms rheumatologist would always mention him...and yes I saw he was on Fox, which triggered my memory....

We were dating with my moms health for many years, and ita all kind of a blur now...

I do appreciate your opinion, and you are very articulate when you represent it. Sorry if I always come off like I'm ranting.
 
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maximillia

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Trump=the devil

#endthread
Trump isn't the devil and he isn't a doctor. Pence gave the best response when asked if he would take hydrochloroquine if he got sick. He answered, “I would follow the advice of my physician and I would recommend that approach to every single American.”
I am not going to disrespect you, but I will state a fact. If you got Covid, and it was bad, you will beg for HCQ. That's what this is about. Trump's actions fast tracked the potential for the use of the drug and like everyone has mentioned, you can't get it without a doctor's approval anyway. The simple fact is that Trump's actions are completely benign. You can make a case he helped. You can make a case that he did nothing. It's blatantly biased to suggest that he somehow made anything worse. IF the drug works- then it was brilliant what he did. If it doesn't, good try.
 
Aleksandar37

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I'll have to try to find links, but I have heard of this Dr. for many years because my moms rheumatologist would always mention him...and yes I saw he was on Fox, which triggered my memory....

We were dating with my moms health for many years, and ita all kind of a blur now...

I dont appreciate your opinion, and you are very articulate when you represent it. Sorry if I always come off like I'm ranting.
I think Trump is a doing a horrible job. I think Hillary and Bill deserve to be tried in The Hauge. I voted for Obama first term, but after his only "change" was welfare and drone attacks, I didn't waste a second vote. I'd say I'm socially liberal because I don't care what other people do and fiscally conservative, but even then it's probably case-by-case. None of these things affect my view on this drug. I hope that the drug works and doesn't hurt people. My view, and it's just one random person's view, is that Trump should tell people to trust researchers and trust their physicians on what is right for them. If he feels that strongly about this drug, he should work behind the scenes with the agencies responsible for producing the drug and educating physicians on its use.
 
manifesto

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My previous post shouldve said " I do respect" your opinion...typing on my phone
 
Aleksandar37

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I am not going to disrespect you, but I will state a fact. If you got Covid, and it was bad, you will beg for HCQ. That's what this is about. Trump's actions fast tracked the potential for the use of the drug and like everyone has mentioned, you can't get it without a doctor's approval anyway. The simple fact is that Trump's actions are completely benign. You can make a case he helped. You can make a case that he did nothing. It's blatantly biased to suggest that he somehow made anything worse. IF the drug works- then it was brilliant what he did. If it doesn't, good try.
Why would I beg for hydrochloroquine? It's not a miracle drug and some reports are coming out that it isn't effective in those with serious cases. I'd have consulted with pulmonologists and called in favors with old grad school friends who went to work at the CDC. Telemedicine loopholes and ordering from foreign countries like India, where we get most of this drug, are ways to get it. The same day that Trump mentioned this drug, there was a person in this forum that posted a link to get it at the same kind of vanity clinic that you can get viagra pills from online. And how many people here get "research chemicals" and other illegal crap online? So you're really going to pretend that the only way is somehow guarded by physicians?

And fine, say the only way is to go to physicians. Like I've already stated, most people see community docs and they're going to get tired of turning people down, so it's not going to be difficult to get that way. Plus, a patient shouldn't be coming in and asking for a treatment before a physician has had a chance to make a diagnosis.
 
HIT4ME

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Can/could is not the same as may/maybe, especially in medicine. This isn't me being picky; I deal with pharma lawyers on a daily basis and they always jump on this word choice. "Could be used" means that it works.

But even ignoring the wording, there are a lot of people that look to Trump for what to do, as they should since he's the President. However, he has repeatedly given conflicting information that is sometimes flat out wrong and has to be corrected later by others in his administration or on twitter. So now you have people going to their physicians demanding this drug. If you're at a larger institution, you have more leverage to tell patients that the drug isn't right for them. If you're a community doc, like most physicians, then you're going to prescribe the drug because you know that if you don't, that patient is going to go across the street and get it from another physician.
Fair enough. Like I said, he can definitely communicate better - not my argument. I still haven't even seen a quote of him saying these things, but I am not defending him like it matters. He's an a-hole anyway, we all know that.

Of his opinion counts, now let's hear from others, especially those that treat patients with normal immune systems. Has there been a completed trial at the dosing required for COVID-19? Malaria treatment is once a week. The recommended dosing schedules I've seen for COVID-19 are that same dose, but twice a day for 10 days. You can't compare safety for those two schedules.
Didn't take more than a 5 minute search to see it for other uses in daily doses of hydroxychloroquine up to 5 mg/kg and is safe in pregnancy:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31612996

This page on the toxicity of Choloroquine shows anything over 2.3 mg/day is high risk and for parasites/malaria has gram doses up to 1 gram a day for 2 days and then 500 mg/day for 2 weeks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537086/

It has a fairly low lethal dose too, so there's isn't a ton of wiggle room.
This case study shows that the toxic dose is somewhere around 20 mg/kg and there is no LD50 established but it is suspected to be around 4 grams - which, yeah, isn't a lot of head room but given the doses above is not something we're probably looking at in Covid. There is a lot of information in this case study, haven't read the entire thing yet...but it's interesting:

https://www.medintensiva.org/en-hydroxychloroquine-potentially-lethal-drug-articulo-S2173572717300577

Why would I beg for hydrochloroquine? It's not a miracle drug and some reports are coming out that it isn't effective in those with serious cases. I'd have consulted with pulmonologists and called in favors with old grad school friends who went to work at the CDC. Telemedicine loopholes and ordering from foreign countries like India, where we get most of this drug, are ways to get it. The same day that Trump mentioned this drug, there was a person in this forum that posted a link to get it at the same kind of vanity clinic that you can get viagra pills from online. And how many people here get "research chemicals" and other illegal crap online? So you're really going to pretend that the only way is somehow guarded by physicians?

And fine, say the only way is to go to physicians. Like I've already stated, most people see community docs and they're going to get tired of turning people down, so it's not going to be difficult to get that way. Plus, a patient shouldn't be coming in and asking for a treatment before a physician has had a chance to make a diagnosis.
I personally would be more likely to beg for IV vitamin C if I were to beg for anything. I may be a quack on that though, I know. haha.. I'd also be looking at some of the antivirals or transfusions.

I agree with the bolded though. I see this all the time among all kinds of people and I'm not even a doctor. Oh, I have these 3 symptoms, I am going to google - I have [insert crazy disease]!!! No, you have 3 symptoms that could happen with about 4 diseases I'm aware of and about 20 other diseases none of us have ever heard of.

So I am with you on people going to the doctor thinking they know more than they do and making demands. And I understand doctors can get worn down or even backed into a corner by their patients/situation sometimes.
 
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Fair enough. Like I said, he can definitely communicate better - not my argument. I still haven't even seen a quote of him saying these things, but I am not defending him like it matters. He's an a-hole anyway, we all know that.



Didn't take more than a 5 minute search to see it for other uses in daily doses of hydroxychloroquine up to 5 mg/kg and is safe in pregnancy:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31612996

This page on the toxicity of Choloroquine shows anything over 2.3 mg/day is high risk and for parasites/malaria has gram doses up to 1 gram a day for 2 days and then 500 mg/day for 2 weeks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537086/



This case study shows that the toxic dose is somewhere around 20 mg/kg and there is no LD50 established but it is suspected to be around 4 grams - which, yeah, isn't a lot of head room but given the doses above is not something we're probably looking at in Covid. There is a lot of information in this case study, haven't read the entire thing yet...but it's interesting:

https://www.medintensiva.org/en-hydroxychloroquine-potentially-lethal-drug-articulo-S2173572717300577



I personally would be more likely to beg for IV vitamin C if I were to beg for anything. I may be a quack on that though, I know. haha.. I'd also be looking at some of the antivirals or transfusions.

I agree with the bolded though. I see this all the time among all kinds of people and I'm not even a doctor. Oh, I have these 3 symptoms, I am going to google - I have [insert crazy disease]!!! No, you have 3 symptoms that could happen with about 4 diseases I'm aware of and about 20 other diseases none of us have ever heard of.

So I am with you on people going to the doctor thinking they know more than they do and making demands. And I understand doctors can get worn down or even backed into a corner by their patients/situation sometimes.
Mainline the C!!!! 😂
In all serious, I’ll be taking whatever they give me in addition to continuing my Vitamin C/D protocol.
 
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Just heard a report on the radio that more African Americans are dying from COVID19 than other races....

Anyone else heard this? I believe they said 70 percent I'd the deaths in New York were Africa Americans...
 
maximillia

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Just heard a report on the radio that more African Americans are dying from COVID19 than other races....

Anyone else heard this? I believe they said 70 percent I'd the deaths in New York were Africa Americans...
I saw somewhere that that's because of the higher prevalence within that population of comorbidities like Diabetes etc., and by population I mean, somewhere specific. Somebody was mentioning on twitter.
 

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