Caffeine and calcium lactate

[Dwade7551]

Has anyone experimented with caffeine and calcium lactate to enhance hypertrophy? There’s a few research papers out there discussing the use of this combination and its stimulation of muscle satellite cells.

 

[3ChainedAminos]

Been looking into calcium, not for direct muscle building but for force of muscle contraction, which I’m wondering has something to do with the muscle building. Something I tried to convey in another post but I butchered the crap out of it. From what I’m reading the calcium release in the muscle has a lot to do with force/strength of the contraction itself. I describe it as the “cramp” feeling, when the contraction is so strong it feels like your muscles are going to cramp. Not in a bad way, but when you are squeezing at peak contraction.

 

[alvin1]

I think i read somewhere on a older supplement uncut it was i think that amentoflavone help with calcium release for stronger contraction

 

[3ChainedAminos]

I think i read somewhere on a older supplement uncut it was i think that amentoflavone help with calcium release for stronger contraction

Looked it up and you are right, according to an NIH study, saying up to 20x more calcium release than caffeine, so this is exactly the mode of action I’m talking about/interested in. The study doesn’t say the dose they used though, maybe I missed it and I’ll look again. I actually take Amentoflavone and almost done with my first bottle, I do like it but I also use so many other things for pump and what not, so it’s hard to pinpoint a difference, definitely gonna experiment with Amentoflavone alone to see if there’s a noticeable difference. (I take 1-3 caps pre)

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Looked it up and you are right, according to an NIH study, saying up to 20x more calcium release than caffeine, so this is exactly the mode of action I’m talking about/interested in. The study doesn’t say the dose they used though, maybe I missed it and I’ll look again. I actually take Amentoflavone and almost done with my first bottle, I do like it but I also use so many other things for pump and what not, so it’s hard to pinpoint a difference, definitely gonna experiment with Amentoflavone alone to see if there’s a noticeable difference. (I take 1-3 caps pre)

ooo 3 caps pre? I've only gone 2. I also take too much pump products to tell what the Amento is doing on its own but I think I like it.

 

[Dwade7551]

I posted a link earlier today with the article I read but, for some reason it is still awaiting approval. Is that typical for posts with links? You can search on suppversity caffeine lactate and it should pull up a version non researchers can understand. If you want the original studies then search on caffeine lactate satellite cells.

 

[Dwade7551]

Nope. No recent article. That’s why I asked if anyone has experimented with it. You are right about exercise lactate levels from what I have been able to find. Intense exercise can raise level as high as 25mmols. But levels drop 30 to 60 min after exercise. I haven’t found much how oral calcium lactate affects muscle tissue levels. But plowing through research papers isn’t my forte.

 

[Dwade7551]

You found the one I read at suppversity. The first mention that I ran across was on Jerry Brainums website “applied metabolics” in an article titled “A new natural anabolic?” Dated April 2015. I’ll link to it when I’m allowed. I have learned a lot from this short thread. I was unaware of Amentoflavone. That’s a whole new rabbit hole to go down.

 

[Dwade7551]

And I had not seen the article linked in your last post either. It never pulled up in any of my searches. First one I have seen on humans!

 

[Dwade7551]

I spent a bit of time looking for research on the effects of oral calcium lactate on blood/ tissue lactate levels and it doesn’t seem very conclusive or encouraging.

 

[sns8778]

You found the one I read at suppversity. The first mention that I ran across was on Jerry Brainums website “applied metabolics” in an article titled “A new natural anabolic?” Dated April 2015. I’ll link to it when I’m allowed. I have learned a lot from this short thread. I was unaware of Amentoflavone. That’s a whole new rabbit hole to go down.

The many different benefits of Amentoflavone is an interesting subject to explore if you're interested in things like that to begin with. It is so good for pumps and strength that it gets so commonly associated with that, but it has a lot of general health and neuroprotective benefits too.

 

[3ChainedAminos]

The many different benefits of Amentoflavone is an interesting subject to explore if you're interested in things like that to begin with. It is so good for pumps and strength that it gets so commonly associated with that, but it has a lot of general health and neuroprotective benefits too.

I’m skeptical af if people havent noticed already, but I started stand alone epicatechin around feb 3rd, went ahead and added Amentoflavone a week later, shouldn’t have done that but figured Amentoflavone was just pump. I’m not sure if it’s the epicatechin or Amentoflavone. But I’ve lost 10 pounds without trying. Diet has changed zero (haven’t tracked macros in 5 years) but I eat clean and essentially the same exact meals everyday. So I wish I waited to started the amento later to see if it was the epicatechin or not, but I really think there’s something to this Amentoflavone. I take 2 to 4 caps a day

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

I’m skeptical af if people havent noticed already, but I started stand alone epicatechin around feb 3rd, went ahead and added Amentoflavone a week later, shouldn’t have done that but figured Amentoflavone was just pump. I’m not sure if it’s the epicatechin or Amentoflavone. But I’ve lost 10 pounds without trying. Diet has changed zero (haven’t tracked macros in 5 years) but I eat clean and essentially the same exact meals everyday. So I wish I waited to started the amento later to see if it was the epicatechin or not, but I really think there’s something to this Amentoflavone. I take 2 to 4 caps a day

Whoah ten pounds in a month without deficit? I haven't experienced weight loss with epicatechin solo, but do enjoy the energy, pumps and increased protein synthesis. Also see minor aesthetic and strength gains with it as well. @sns8778 Steve, would there be some synergistic effects between the two causing the weight loss?

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[3ChainedAminos]

Whoah ten pounds in a month without deficit? I haven't experienced weight loss with epicatechin solo, but do enjoy the energy, pumps and increased protein synthesis. Also see minor aesthetic and strength gains with it as well. @sns8778 Steve, would there be some synergistic effects between the two causing the weight loss?

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I’m telling you there is something to it, I haven’t broke under 200 since my wedding 2 years ago, been an unbreakable wall (even when I do try and lean up, I haven’t been able to get under 200). well I weigh 192 now, 193 was my wedding weight. Only change which I don’t think is notable is I upped yoga from 3-4 times a week, to about 6, sometimes more. It’s tough, I do 30 minutes but it’s not super strenuous, and while I’m a super yoga fan, I don’t think this was it. I’ve done bouts of yoga everyday before though, and this never happened, well this drastic in this time frame. Also with all this talk about my weight, I don’t think fatloss and weight loss are the same and the only reason I try to stay around 200 is because my knees and basically everything else feels better.

 

[sns8778]

Whoah ten pounds in a month without deficit? I haven't experienced weight loss with epicatechin solo, but do enjoy the energy, pumps and increased protein synthesis. Also see minor aesthetic and strength gains with it as well. @sns8778 Steve, would there be some synergistic effects between the two causing the weight loss?

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That isn't common with either ingredient, but different people respond differently to different things, and some people are hyper-responders to certain things or combinations of things.

I use at least 1 capsule of Epi-Plex per day as part of my general health supplement regimen and 2 caps per day when working out regularly, and have gone up to 3 per day when my training needed extra help with muscular endurance.

I like Amentoflavone XT and think its great for pumps and strength gains, and it has a lot of great overall health benefits. I haven't tried it at 4 caps per day but plan to in the next couple months when my training gets back more consistent.

I would be curious to hear feedback from anyone else that has used the two together.

 

[Dwade7551]

Ya thats pretty much what I’d seen so far.

While there might be benefits (so far they haven’t seemed to skew super effective in regards to lactate helping boost performance) I think one thing to keep in mind is that it can be a good reminder that end goal things we see in the body as effective don’t always translate to just “ingesting” that same thing for added benefit.

That probably sounds funny, example is we know arginine has lots of benefits on things like NO, but ingesting more Arginine doesn’t seem to boost it or have large effect. Taking something like Citrulline does for boosting what originally people wanted to improve with Arginine consumption.

I’m not even arguing boosting Lactate will have specific effects, but let’s just say it does some of the hypotheticals like Caffeine or something like baking soda may lead to greater lactate accumulation than taking actual lactate (if that is the goal).

If you find anything else interesting I’d be interested in reading, I may see if any of my other studies saved have relevance.

It is disappointing but true that so many things that looked good on paper or initial research never panned in tangible results with live human beings. I think it is because the mechanism isn't fully understood, or the there are feedback mechanisms that stubbornly fight to keep the body in homeostasis.

I have lifted most of my life but fell away for quite a few years because of life events. Now, as a senior adult my primary focus is rebuilding and maintaining lean body mass as a hedge against sarcopenia. I face significant obstacles because of diminishing hormones, anabolic resistance (this includes satellite cell activity), and probably a host of other systemic issues due to aging. In my favor is that I have always been naturally muscular and have also have the muscle memory effect working for me from lifting for so many years.

I currently am using a PPL split with mainly compound movements. Based on everything I have read so far, I have a Leucine/HMB mix in a 4:1 ratio that I use three time per day. Once with a post workout protein drink and also with lunch and dinner. This is to address the anabolic resistance. My understanding is that I should ingest at least 4 grams of leucine and 50 grams of overall protein per meal to keep mTOR activiated. The HMB seems to have a greater effect in protecting muscle tissue rather than stimulating growth. I also take 100mg of Epicatechin twice daily. This one is more speculative, but it wasn't expensive and is also safe. (Sourced from Nootropic Depot in powder). I also put 5g of creatine in my post workout drink. I have 3g of L-Citrulline in water and several cups of coffee about 1 hour before I work out. I have not yet made a decision on peptides or SARMs but if I do move forward I will probably start with MK-677 and see how that goes.

So far I am pleased with the results. Which of these things contributed to the results? Probably everything with the possible exception of the Epicatechin. I only say that because there is no definitive research yet to say it helps hypertrophy in humans.