Blood pressure

[AndShane]

I drink about 500mg coffee in the morning and usually take a nicotine zyn about 4 pm. Would this play a part in higher BP.

 

[enhanced]

500 migs of coffee is a lot!! Not familiar with the nicotine zyn..

 

[ValiantThor08]

I drink about 500mg coffee in the morning and usually take a nicotine zyn about 4 pm. Would this play a part in higher BP.

Absolutely will cause heightened blood pressure.

 

[AndShane]

What do you recommend in terms of caffeine daily? How long will this cause increased blood pressure ? Will try and cut in half for a week and see. Hoping see results

 

[AndShane]

Basically 6mg nicotine lozenge. I take 3 at a time. 18mg nicotine. No tobacco. Probably not the best idea. But this morning my bp was 130/100 and I haven’t had any caffeine e

 

[ValiantThor08]

What do you recommend in terms of caffeine daily? How long will this cause increased blood pressure ? Will try and cut in half for a week and see. Hoping see results

The blood pressure should go down as you ease on the caffeine. If you take citrulline/arginine daily, that can help as well. As long as you are on caffeine, you will have heightened BP. The more caffeine, the heightened you BP may be.

 

[AndShane]

Guess 3-4 days possibly?

 

[ValiantThor08]

Guess 3-4 days possibly?

It's going to depend on if you can cut back on the caffeine a lot, or even drop it all together. You may drop caffeine in half and have higher BP than normal. It may take dropping it all together to get it in a range where you would like it, and yes, even after dropping the caffeine, it could take a few days to get your BP where you desire it.

 

[AndShane]

I checked tonight and it was 129/80. So not bad. No clue if this girl messed up the test. I was sitting up and she had my right arm all the way down, nowhere near my heart. Also she squeezed super hard so maybe she got a bad reading. My arms are bigger than normal per say

 

[AndShane]

My ldl was also 112 but everything else perfect.

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

it depends, some people get immune to caffinee

i dont like anything above 200-300mg tops caffinee .. 500mg i prolly do it through out the day

are you doing that high amount of 500 for a reason ? pick up in the morning ? try cutting it down by 50mg then 100mg then 150-200mg

but yeah will def play a role in BP

 

[AndShane]

Yeah. I am done with espresso shots. That’s my main issue I think. Just going to try 300mg day for a week and see what happens. Hoping to flush excess caffeine out from past. How long would you think to see if lowering to 300mg works ok ?

 

[kl1234]

Yeah. I am done with espresso shots. That’s my main issue I think. Just going to try 300mg day for a week and see what happens. Hoping to flush excess caffeine out from past. How long would you think to see if lowering to 300mg works ok ?

I’d wager It’s the nicotine... not the caffeine. 18mg in a single dose- is quite a bit.

 

[thebigt]

I’d wager It’s the nicotine... not the caffeine. 18mg in a single dose- is quite a bit.

winner...i have a friend who recently quit smoking and even using a 4mg lozenge raised his bp...he was using 6 daily and once he started cutting back his bp started dropping...now that he is off completely his bp is lower than it was originally when he was a smoker.

look it up-nicotine increases bp.

 

[jswain34]

Nicotine independently of cigarette smoking causes atherosclerosis which leads to hypertension.

Secondly, do you consume 500g of COFFEE (ie. 2.25 cups) or do you consume 500mg of CAFFEINE. Thats a very important distinction as the latter would only yield 215mg (when using an avg of 95mg/cup) and thats not really a ton whatsoever. (Edit: nvm, i didnt see there was a second page - 500mg in one dose is a lot lol).

But, if she used too small of a cuff that could artificially inflate your reading. Or you could just have white coat htn. You need multiple elevated readings to really be diagnosed with true htn.

Edit: realized i typed mg instead of g for coffee. 500 mg = 5g = 0.5g = .002 cup = ~20mg caffeine.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Nicotine independently of cigarette smoking causes atherosclerosis which leads to hypertension.

Secondly, do you consume 500mg of COFFEE (ie. 2.25 cups) or do you consume 500mg of CAFFEINE. Thats a very important distinction as the latter would only yield 215mg (when using an avg of 95mg/cup) and thats not really a ton whatsoever. (Edit: nvm, i didnt see there was a second page - 500mg in one dose is a lot lol).

But, if she used too small of a cuff that could artificially inflate your reading. Or you could just have white coat htn. You need multiple elevated readings to really be diagnosed with true htn.

Can you show any evidence of that first point re nicotine?

 

[AndShane]

I bought a 150.00 cuff at cvs. Upper arm and it’s showing at night normal. I had a large Dunkin’ Donuts iced coffee. Almond milk in the morning. That’s all the caffeine. Not sure if the girl tested it right or what. In the morning it seems to be quite a bit more. Does higher ldl have anything to do with it

 

[jswain34]

Can you show any evidence of that first point re nicotine?

The #s above the first article are for the article headings the quotes are from so you can find the statements easier.

#1 - 2013

1. Pathogenesis of tobacco-related vascular disease

“In addition to its role as the habituating agent in tobacco, nicotine also accelerates vascular disease.”

“In addition to these actions mediated by activation of the sympathetic nervous system, nicotine has direct actions on the cellular elements participating in plaque formation.”

2. Pathological neovascularization and the endothelial nAChR

“Of relevance to the current paper, nicotine increases plaque progression and neovascularization in the ApoE−/− mouse (8). This effect of nicotine was independent of plasma lipid values and was blocked by rofecoxib, a known inhibitor of angiogenesis.”

3. Exploring the role of the nAChR in atherosclerosis

“On Oct 27 2010, the FDA held a public workshop to discuss the risks and benefits of approving long-term use of NRT (ie. beyond the current approved maximum period of 12 weeks). This workshop revealed that, whereas short-term use of NRTs has been shown to be safe and effective in tobacco cessation, there are little clinical data on the safety and efficacy of long-term use of NRTs. Taken together with other pre-clinical research, the current study suggests that nicotine itself may accelerate atherosclerotic disease. Until clinical data are available on long-term use of nicotine, the astute clinician may wish to substitute other approaches toward tobacco cessation if short-term use of nicotine fails.”

Additionally, theres other info on cellular mechanisms regarding alpha-1 and “muscle type” nAChRs described in the paper as well.

The role of nicotine in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

#2 - 1992

“Smoking or long-term nicotine administration has been shown to cause endothelial injury, as indicated by the increase in the number of circulating endothelial cells13-16 and the increase in endothelial permeabili- ty,1718 as well as the morphological changes of the endothelium.18"23 Repeated endothelial damage has been suggested as an initiating factor in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis
24, 25.”

“As shown in Table 1, the frequency of endothe- lial cell death was significantly higher (0.94±0.11% versus 0.40±0.04%, p/?kg) rats than in control rats.”

Then just read the entire discussion from the AHA article below. Some of it is claims made about “cigarette smoking” but at other points they make statements about nicotine. Including one part that states nicotine has been shown to cause not only endothelial cell death, but also reduced endothelial cell mitosis (which, we can assume, would help replenish/replace those dead cells).

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/01.ATV.12.11.1305

#3 - 2018

For the next study, published in Nature, im not going to go through it as much but ill include 2 short excerpts:

“Increasing evidence has demonstrated that nicotine impairs the cardiovascular system by targeting vascular endothelial cells, but the underlying mechanisms remain obscure. It is known that cell death and inflammation are crucial processes leading to atherosclerosis. We proposed that pyroptosis may be implicated in nicotine-induced atherosclerosis and therefore conducted the present study.”

“Substantial evidence supports the promoting effect of nicotine on atherosclerosis in a long-term basis5, even though short term exposure to nicotine is considered relatively harmless.”

Nicotine promotes atherosclerosis via ROS-NLRP3-mediated endothelial cell pyroptosis - Cell Death & Disease

Cigarette smoking is a major risk factor for atherosclerosis and other cardiovascular diseases. Increasing evidence has demonstrated that nicotine impairs the cardiovascular system by targeting vascular endothelial cells, but the underlying mechanisms remain obscure. It is known that cell death...

www.nature.com

 

[NoAddedHmones]

The #s above the first article are for the article headings the quotes are from so you can find the statements easier.

#1 - 2013

1. Pathogenesis of tobacco-related vascular disease

“In addition to its role as the habituating agent in tobacco, nicotine also accelerates vascular disease.”

“In addition to these actions mediated by activation of the sympathetic nervous system, nicotine has direct actions on the cellular elements participating in plaque formation.”

2. Pathological neovascularization and the endothelial nAChR

“Of relevance to the current paper, nicotine increases plaque progression and neovascularization in the ApoE−/− mouse (8). This effect of nicotine was independent of plasma lipid values and was blocked by rofecoxib, a known inhibitor of angiogenesis.”

3. Exploring the role of the nAChR in atherosclerosis

“On Oct 27 2010, the FDA held a public workshop to discuss the risks and benefits of approving long-term use of NRT (ie. beyond the current approved maximum period of 12 weeks). This workshop revealed that, whereas short-term use of NRTs has been shown to be safe and effective in tobacco cessation, there are little clinical data on the safety and efficacy of long-term use of NRTs. Taken together with other pre-clinical research, the current study suggests that nicotine itself may accelerate atherosclerotic disease. Until clinical data are available on long-term use of nicotine, the astute clinician may wish to substitute other approaches toward tobacco cessation if short-term use of nicotine fails.”

Additionally, theres other info on cellular mechanisms regarding alpha-1 and “muscle type” nAChRs described in the paper as well.

The role of nicotine in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

#2 - 1992

“Smoking or long-term nicotine administration has been shown to cause endothelial injury, as indicated by the increase in the number of circulating endothelial cells13-16 and the increase in endothelial permeabili- ty,1718 as well as the morphological changes of the endothelium.18"23 Repeated endothelial damage has been suggested as an initiating factor in the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis
24, 25.”

“As shown in Table 1, the frequency of endothe- lial cell death was significantly higher (0.94±0.11% versus 0.40±0.04%, p/?kg) rats than in control rats.”

Then just read the entire discussion from the AHA article below. Some of it is claims made about “cigarette smoking” but at other points they make statements about nicotine. Including one part that states nicotine has been shown to cause not only endothelial cell death, but also reduced endothelial cell mitosis (which, we can assume, would help replenish/replace those dead cells).

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/01.ATV.12.11.1305

#3 - 2018

For the next study, published in Nature, im not going to go through it as much but ill include 2 short excerpts:

“Increasing evidence has demonstrated that nicotine impairs the cardiovascular system by targeting vascular endothelial cells, but the underlying mechanisms remain obscure. It is known that cell death and inflammation are crucial processes leading to atherosclerosis. We proposed that pyroptosis may be implicated in nicotine-induced atherosclerosis and therefore conducted the present study.”

“Substantial evidence supports the promoting effect of nicotine on atherosclerosis in a long-term basis5, even though short term exposure to nicotine is considered relatively harmless.”

Nicotine promotes atherosclerosis via ROS-NLRP3-mediated endothelial cell pyroptosis - Cell Death & Disease

Cigarette smoking is a major risk factor for atherosclerosis and other cardiovascular diseases. Increasing evidence has demonstrated that nicotine impairs the cardiovascular system by targeting vascular endothelial cells, but the underlying mechanisms remain obscure. It is known that cell death...

www.nature.com

Thanks.

I think the balance of findings suggest nicotine “may” accelerate development of atherosclerosis in mice bred to be susceptible the disease. Research is far from proving a causative effect in humans however.

For instance, the agonism of α7nAChR has been show to prevent atherosclerosis in this study:


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021915019313711

I think distinguishing between a healthy and diseased population is an important distinction in this case. As well as method of delivery, dosage, exposure length and genetic polymorphisms.

 

[jswain34]

Thanks.

I think the balance of findings suggest nicotine “may” accelerate development of atherosclerosis in mice bred to be susceptible the disease. Research is far from proving a causative effect in humans however.

For instance, the agonism of α7nAChR has been show to prevent atherosclerosis in this study:


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021915019313711

I think distinguishing between a healthy and diseased population is an important distinction in this case. As well as method of delivery, dosage, exposure length and genetic polymorphisms.

The first study I posted would support your interpretation that nicotine “may” promote or accelerate atherosclerosis, but it seems that the overall balance would lean more towards it being atherogenic than it being non-atherogenic and especially protective. I also agree with you that animal data doesnt always carry over to humans, but it doesnt change the fact that nicotine has been repetitively shown to be atherogenic in both mice and rabbits. Those results shown over and over again combination with the fact we know how atherogenic tobacco smoking is leads me to believe it very likely does have at least one, if not multiple, atherogenic mechanisms.

I also dont necessarily agree that every study done on the topic was in diseases subjects, or that nicotine wouldnt still cause atherosclerotic changes in healthy individuals. From what I saw (or at least that I recall from seeing) in those studies above, i dont think any of the animals were previously diseased.

I also completely agree that dosage and duration likely play a huge role - as was noted multiple times in at least one of those studies above where they stated nicotine replacement therapy to aid with cigarette smoking cessation is completely safe in the short term.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

The first study I posted would support your interpretation that nicotine “may” promote or accelerate atherosclerosis, but it seems that the overall balance would lean more towards it being atherogenic than it being non-atherogenic and especially protective. I also agree with you that animal data doesnt always carry over to humans, but it doesnt change the fact that nicotine has been repetitively shown to be atherogenic in both mice and rabbits. Those results shown over and over again combination with the fact we know how atherogenic tobacco smoking is leads me to believe it very likely does have at least one, if not multiple, atherogenic mechanisms.

I also dont necessarily agree that every study done on the topic was in diseases subjects, or that nicotine wouldnt still cause atherosclerotic changes in healthy individuals. From what I saw (or at least that I recall from seeing) in those studies above, i dont think any of the animals were previously diseased.

I also completely agree that dosage and duration likely play a huge role - as was noted multiple times in at least one of those studies above where they stated nicotine replacement therapy to aid with cigarette smoking cessation is completely safe in the short term.

No not diseased per se, but Apoe-/- mice are specifically genetically prone to developing atherosclerosis, was the point I was trying to make.

 

[jswain34]

No not diseased per se, but Apoe-/- mice are specifically genetically prone to developing atherosclerosis, was the point I was trying to make.

Gotcha, understood. Thanks for that clarification.

 

[Uncle_E]

A large Dunkin Donuts iced coffee is about 400mg of caffeine, that’s a lot. I was drinking one of those plus another coffee and sometimes a pre-work out, so maybe upwards of 750mg caffeine a day. It was way too much and elevating my bp. Now I’m trying to stay under 200mg a day by drinking 1/2 decaf and I can feel the results. I accidentally got a full caffeine iced coffee last week and my heart was racing so fast, so I guess I significantly dropped my tolerance.

You also need to be mindful of your stress/state when you take a bp test. I’ve gotten high readings because of outside factors before. Like when I was running late for the Dr appointment, in rush hour traffic during a summer heat wave - I ran right in and took a bp test. No **** it was a little elevated.

I got an at home cuff and keep it in the upstairs bathroom. I would sprint up the stairs and take the test, then be surprised when it was higher than I thought it should be. If I get the cuff and chill for 5 minutes then take a reading, it is always lower than when I just ran up the stairs.

So I guess I was a little ignorant that these simple things like caffeine, stress and running can and will temporarily raise your blood pressure.

 

[AndShane]

Yes. Lately at night I’ve been taking it and it’s 126 over 76. Heart rate resting is under 60. I believe my heart is great, just have to cut down on caffeine. A hard thing to do

 

[tyga tyga]

Yes. Lately at night I’ve been taking it and it’s 126 over 76. Heart rate resting is under 60. I believe my heart is great, just have to cut down on caffeine. A hard thing to do

May be beneficial to get caffeine powder and try to reduce it that way. Start pulling back slowly (25-50mg weekly unless you’re wanting to taper quicker).

 

[AndShane]

Yeah agree.

 

[Derek Wilson]

Got a message from a study and it had shown a reduction in liver and prostate cancer, after the removal of confounding factors this study did not show any effects on cancer causation or cancer death rates with coffee consumption.

 

[AndShane]

Could low magnesium be the cause?

 

[HIT4ME]

I believe I have come across some studies suggesting that adenosine antagonism can actually have a BP lowering effect...which goes against what most believe. I cannot seem to find it, but it was along those lines because it stood out for being so far against what everyone says.

Regardless, the increased BP from caffeine should be short lived and abstaining for even a day should yield a change if that is the cause.

However, if you are getting it all from coffee:

Habitual coffee consumption and blood pressure: An epidemiological perspective

This paper summarizes the current epidemiological evidence on coffee consumption in relation to blood pressure (BP) and risk of hypertension. Data from cross-sectional studies suggest an inverse linear or U-shaped association of habitual coffee use with ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It looks like the effect will either be very minor or maybe even a positive, lowering effect on BP, as coffee seems to maybe even protect against hypertension.

I would look at the nicotine, your stress, your diet, etc. I believe you have a few threads asking for diet advice on here, how much do you weight and how tall?

 

[AndShane]

511 200. Ab 13-14% bf. Real lean for almost 40. Workout and cardio for years. Never miss. I think it’s nicotine. Everything I read leads back to this. Going to quit for a week and see if it naturally lowers. If not going to doctor. My heart has been tested and always comes back great. I stopped chewing tabocco a few years ago but started nicotine pouches which I think it was nicotine in chewing tabocco causing high bp than normal

 

[HIT4ME]

511 200. Ab 13-14% bf. Real lean for almost 40. Workout and cardio for years. Never miss. I think it’s nicotine. Everything I read leads back to this. Going to quit for a week and see if it naturally lowers. If not going to doctor. My heart has been tested and always comes back great. I stopped chewing tabocco a few years ago but started nicotine pouches which I think it was nicotine in chewing tabocco causing high bp than normal

Yeah, I missed the nighttime 126/76. That isn't something to really stress about, IMO. Try taking it when you first wake up in the morning as well. Get some readings at different times and you may figure out some things.

You sound pretty healthy based on what little we are discussing. Cutting out nicotine may or may not help, but it won't hurt.

 

[AndShane]

Yeah. Mornings are 135/83 or so. Last few days have been 130/80’s. Not bad but feel anxiety and usually get hot feeling about 1 or so daily. Just going cut out nicotine and will see after a few days.

 

[HIT4ME]

Sounds reasonable.

 

[AndShane]

How much time do you think for nicotine to somewhat clear out usually ?

 

[AndShane]

3 days no nicotine and pressure seems worse at night. It usually hits me about 1 pm or so. Only drink 200-300mg caffeine. Maybe it’s withdraw symptoms? Hopefully next week it’s better or else I need to figure something out. T

 

[jswain34]

3 days no nicotine and pressure seems worse at night. It usually hits me about 1 pm or so. Only drink 200-300mg caffeine. Maybe it’s withdraw symptoms? Hopefully next week it’s better or else I need to figure something out. T

Give it 7 days. Nicotine has a shorter half life and should be damn near completely cleared by now but it’s primary metabolite can take 5+ days to clear (based on the 5x half life typically used to estimate when a drug will be “out of the system”). I also dont know a ton about cotitine other than it’s being studied for some psychiatric conditions, so i dont really know if it has the same potential hypertensive effects as the parent compound nicotine. Like you said, could also be rebound from withdrawal. Either way, just give it 7 days.

Also, what #s are you getting in the afternoon?

 

[AndShane]

135/85-90ish

 

[AndShane]

I mean no way 200-300mg caffeine should cause consistently all the time high bp?

 

[jswain34]

I mean no way 200-300mg caffeine should cause consistently all the time high bp?

I mean...are you drinking the caffeine within an hour of your bp elevating? If so then yah it could absolutely be contributing and very likely is if theres that close of a temporal relationship between dosing & bp elevation. If youre drinking it 3+ hrs before and it doesnt get elevated til 1pm id have a hard time blaming the caffeine.

 

[AndShane]

Caffeine at 8:00 am and bp 135/86 or so at night. Probably not caffeine but if I do 400mg could last longwr