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Beta Ecdysterone Decreases Thyroid T4 Thoughts?

bighoss44

New member
Hello, I know there are many knowledgeable supplement users and reps on this forum, and I am looking to try Ecdy-plex though I have hypothyroidism and looking into it found there was a study in 2019 showing, resistance-trained men who supplemented with ecdysterone for 10 weeks showed a decrease in their thyroxine (T4). I found other rodent studies showing ecdysterone had no effect on thyroid and then another human study, similarly with no effect on thyroid. Curious if anyone has any personal experience with thyroid levels while using ecdysterone or how you interpret conflicting studies like there is in this case? Thanks for any input.
 
Post the study that shows it had lowering effects on t4. Il read it over and see if I can make anything out of it
 
Is it not better to treat the hypothyroid down first before testing supplements like this?

I had hypothryodism myself about a year ago and it was pretty much systemic shutdown in all parts of my body. Every vitamin, herb or prehormone you put in your body just kept accumilating into toxic levels, body couldnt get ridd of it because methylation and detox pathways were being blocked amongst other things. you gained weight. hormones became critically low. you became tired, depressed. muscle pain. 16hrs bedridden. brain fogged all the time. you sure you got hypo?

treat the hypothyrodism first and loose weight so your hormone levels increase again. lay off all unneccesary supplements and supplement with the crucial things like nac, glycine, gluatmine, selenium, zinc - b- complex etc - things that will lower free radicals and help your thyroid start functioning again so it can detox. understand the reason for your hypo (is it due to stress, high cortisol, hashimotos (is it sublcinical or actual life long threatening hashimotos)? So when TSH is back to 0.6-1.5 (the "when i feel good and cured again" - part) - start supplementing again slowly. plant steroids wont generelly do much and beta-ecd is snake oil too.
 
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Smont said:
Post the study that shows it had lowering effects on t4. Il read it over and see if I can make anything out of it
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This is the one I saw a 2019 human study showed decreased t4 though no other hormone changes as far as testosterone, estradiol, ect.


This is the 2014 rat study that showed no change in thyroid, though a decrease in estradiol which I was slightly concerned about since I run a bit low naturally and tongkat and boron hit me with low e2 sides quickly .. was also confirmed via bloodwork. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24974955/#:~:text=Abstract,anabolic activity of the Ecdy.

If you have time to give any thoughts on the studies, I really appreciate it. I am not interested in using peds and have found some of these natural anabolics to really help and was curious on this one though I have this hashimotos thyroiditis, which has me dive into one ingredient at a time cautiously to monitor.
 
vlsk10 said:
Is it not better to treat the hypothyroid down first before testing supplements like this?

I had hypothryodism myself about a year ago and it was pretty much systemic shutdown in all parts of my body. Every vitamin, herb or prehormone you put in your body just kept accumilating into toxic levels, body couldnt get ridd of it because methylation and detox pathways were being blocked amongst other things. you gained weight. hormones became critically low. you became tired, depressed. muscle pain. 16hrs bedridden. brain fogged all the time. you sure you got hypo?

treat the hypothyrodism first and loose weight so your hormone levels increase again. lay off all unneccesary supplements and supplement with the crucial things like nac, glycine, gluatmine, selenium, zinc - b- complex etc - things that will lower free radicals and help your thyroid start functioning again so it can detox. understand the reason for your hypo (is it due to stress, high cortisol, hashimotos (is it sublcinical or actual life long threatening hashimotos)? So when TSH is back to 0.6-1.5 (the "when i feel good and cured again" - part) - start supplementing again slowly. plant steroids wont generelly do much and beta-ecd is snake oil too.
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Bud thanks for trying to help but 1. I have been diagnosed with Hashimotos Thyroiditis and am medicated with levothyroxine with my endocrinologist and 2. I am not overweight, I am gym rat. I really just wanted an answer on the supplement.
 
bighoss44 said:
Hello, I know there are many knowledgeable supplement users and reps on this forum, and I am looking to try Ecdy-plex though I have hypothyroidism and looking into it found there was a study in 2019 showing, resistance-trained men who supplemented with ecdysterone for 10 weeks showed a decrease in their thyroxine (T4). I found other rodent studies showing ecdysterone had no effect on thyroid and then another human study, similarly with no effect on thyroid. Curious if anyone has any personal experience with thyroid levels while using ecdysterone or how you interpret conflicting studies like there is in this case? Thanks for any input.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry that I missed this and didn't reply before now.

Reading and interpreting studies can be difficult, especially when some seem to contradict one another, and its important to always look at things in context.

The study that you posted from the WADA website, here is part of the conclusion:
The ecdysterone administration led to increased serum IGF1 concentrations in comparison to the control group while thyroxin (T4) concentrations decreased.

Significantly higher increases in muscle mass were observed in those volunteers that were dosed with the ecdysterone supplements. Even more relevant with respect to sports performance, also significantly more pronounced increases in one-repetition bench press performance were observed.
These data underline the effectivity of an ecdysterone supplementation with respect to sports performance. We therefore strongly recommend to include ecdysterone in the list of prohibited substances and methods in sports to improve clean competition in the future. As the exact mechanism of action is not yet fully understood, we suggest to include it in class S1.2 “other anabolic agents”.

Context - it's pretty clear they are picking and choosing studies to present it in a way to add it to their prohibited substances list, as they state in the last 2 sentences.

Now, let's look at the main part that you are asking about specifically:
The ecdysterone administration led to increased serum IGF1 concentrations in comparison to the control group while thyroxin (T4) concentrations decreased.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a case of where they are not telling the full story, because as mentioned above, they are trying to present it in a certain light.

As you know, hormones interact with and have relationships with other hormones - and what we are looking at here isn't necessarily Ecdysterone having an impact on T4, it is increasing IGF-1 having an impact on T4.
  • Increasing IGF-1 levels may lead to decreased T4 levels because increased IGF-1 levels may stimulate the conversion of T4 into the more active form, T3.
  • While IGF-1 can increase T3, studies on whether it directly affects T4 are mixed, with some showing an increase in T3 with no change in T4, while others show an increase in T3 and a decrease in T4.
In the real world, the likelihood of this happening to any noticeable degree (good or bad) is very unlikely.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an endocrine condition and have to have bloodwork done regularly including T3, T4, Reverse T3, etc. and I have had bloodwork done on Ecdy-Plex. I went back and checked for you and there was no significant difference in any of my thyroid levels when I had it done on it, and I had it done 5 weeks into a cycle of it.


I hope that information helps.
 
sns8778 said:
I'm sorry that I missed this and didn't reply before now.

Reading and interpreting studies can be difficult, especially when some seem to contradict one another, and its important to always look at things in context.

The study that you posted from the WADA website, here is part of the conclusion:
The ecdysterone administration led to increased serum IGF1 concentrations in comparison to the control group while thyroxin (T4) concentrations decreased.

Significantly higher increases in muscle mass were observed in those volunteers that were dosed with the ecdysterone supplements. Even more relevant with respect to sports performance, also significantly more pronounced increases in one-repetition bench press performance were observed.
These data underline the effectivity of an ecdysterone supplementation with respect to sports performance. We therefore strongly recommend to include ecdysterone in the list of prohibited substances and methods in sports to improve clean competition in the future. As the exact mechanism of action is not yet fully understood, we suggest to include it in class S1.2 “other anabolic agents”.

Context - it's pretty clear they are picking and choosing studies to present it in a way to add it to their prohibited substances list, as they state in the last 2 sentences.

Now, let's look at the main part that you are asking about specifically:
The ecdysterone administration led to increased serum IGF1 concentrations in comparison to the control group while thyroxin (T4) concentrations decreased.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a case of where they are not telling the full story, because as mentioned above, they are trying to present it in a certain light.

As you know, hormones interact with and have relationships with other hormones - and what we are looking at here isn't necessarily Ecdysterone having an impact on T4, it is increasing IGF-1 having an impact on T4.
  • Increasing IGF-1 levels may lead to decreased T4 levels because increased IGF-1 levels may stimulate the conversion of T4 into the more active form, T3.
  • While IGF-1 can increase T3, studies on whether it directly affects T4 are mixed, with some showing an increase in T3 with no change in T4, while others show an increase in T3 and a decrease in T4.
In the real world, the likelihood of this happening to any noticeable degree (good or bad) is very unlikely.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have an endocrine condition and have to have bloodwork done regularly including T3, T4, Reverse T3, etc. and I have had bloodwork done on Ecdy-Plex. I went back and checked for you and there was no significant difference in any of my thyroid levels when I had it done on it, and I had it done 5 weeks into a cycle of it.


I hope that information helps.
Click to expand...
Dang, that is really helpful, thank you for taking the time to dive into this sir. I will likely go ahead and give that a try. How did you like ecdy/turk? Seems to be very mixed reviews. Are there any other single-ingredient natural muscle-building/recomp products you recommend?
 
bighoss44 said:
Bud thanks for trying to help but 1. I have been diagnosed with Hashimotos Thyroiditis and am medicated with levothyroxine with my endocrinologist and 2. I am not overweight, I am gym rat. I really just wanted an answer on the supplement.
Click to expand...
Im happy that your meds work. It's very unusual that males get hashimotos, usually only females tend to get that from the studies I read. I treated mine down naturally and I also take Swansons thyroid glandular sometimes. My only symptoms that I find not leaving are slight cold hands and feet. It gets better with activities and a active lifestyle

. But I wish you good luck combining these stuff. I would have done fadogia + turk then but they are really no stuff to build on. They just increase libido a bit.
 
Since Steve did the deep dive I'm going to address a other thing I find important. What studies actually are, because a lot of ppl think that studies are proof of something, and there not. A study is just a piece of information you can use to form your opinions. After looking at this study I pulled up 6 or 7 others from 2017-2021 and no other studies made any note of thyroid being effected by beta ecedysteron.

If you regularly get labs for your condition, maybe wait till the day after your next blood work to start beta ecedysteron, if something feels off, go get some blood work and you will have a concrete answer.

I agree with Steve, I don't think it will make a significant difference if any at all. But blood's would tell you.

I know 1 person who has hashimotos and it's also a guy. Outside the normal list of supplements and vitamins he was told to avoid, one of his concerns was supplements called glandulars, and also things that are considered strong immune system boosters? Anything that has strong positive effects on the immune system. So Ashwaganda ould probably be a no for you. I don't know much about hashimoto's, I'm literally just going off of what I've been told from this guy in a few brief conversations at the gym, and some limited research.

Looking up beta ecedysteron, ofit has minimal effects on the immune system I'm humans and it doesn't check any of the other danger boxes.


So all of this is to say that that one study is probably the only piece of information I've seen that has anything possibly negative affecting your condition and it doesn't seem like it's that strong of a study.

I would guess you're going to be fine
 
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vlsk10 said:
Im happy that your meds work. It's very unusual that males get hashimotos, usually only females tend to get that from the studies I read. I treated mine down naturally and I also take Swansons thyroid glandular sometimes. My only symptoms that I find not leaving are slight cold hands and feet. It gets better with activities and a active lifestyle

. But I wish you good luck combining these stuff. I would have done fadogia + turk then but they are really no stuff to build on. They just increase libido a bit.
Click to expand...
I think like 1 out of 20 ppl with hashimotos is a male, that was noted in one of the other studies I breezed through
 
Smont said:
I think like 1 out of 20 ppl with hashimotos is a male, that was noted in one of the other studies I breezed through
Click to expand...
Yeah. Also about ashwagandha. It's not good for hashi or subclinical at all. There are better ways to lower cortisol, free radicals, oxidative stress - things that could contribute to high TSH. Including abuse of steroids, alcohole and amphetamines too, this has to be kept to a minimum not to stress the heart and liver. I know ash is very very promoted in the UK and US-even as a testo booster (lmao) but in Europe it's actually being banned. Danish study... And also for me ash is like cannabis oil. It slows me down too much much. People with thyroid may already be slow.

What you want are things that detox and cleanse your organs. Lower the stress but not too much. Very low cortisol also not good. You want things that increase metabolism and fat burn too. But this guy is lean so it means he has his blood work under control. Meds are working. For me levo was horrible. Turned me hyper every day.... I gave up that ****. Started exploring natural treatments. Turned to vitamins. Started following Dr Eric bergs advice on insta. Best thing I ever did. Doctors only knew about levo. There was no other advice they could have given me. Damn doctors bought by the pharmaceutical industry
 
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bighoss44 said:
Dang, that is really helpful, thank you for taking the time to dive into this sir. I will likely go ahead and give that a try. How did you like ecdy/turk? Seems to be very mixed reviews. Are there any other single-ingredient natural muscle-building/recomp products you recommend?
Click to expand...

You're very welcome.

When I tried Ecdy-Plex, I used it with a couple of other things, but they were things that I had used before, so I was familiar with what to expect from those. I was actually pleasantly surprised that I liked Ecdy-Plex as much as I did, I noticed really good muscle fullness and good muscular endurance and strength later on in my workouts. I don't train for max lifts, I train for 12 to 16 sets at either 6 to 8 reps or 10 to 12 reps and was pleased.

There are mixed reviews on those ingredients because a lot of products don't meet label claims and some aren't what they are supposed to be at all and a big reason - they both seem to be ingredients that work differently for different people and some are going to respond better to them than others. On one end, you'll have hyper responders and on the other end people that don't respond hardly at all, but the average is in the middle.

My favorite recomp products are:
  • Recomp20
  • Alpha One
  • C3G XT
  • GlycoPhase
  • Anabolic Effect
  • Anabolic XT
Anabolic XT and Anabolic Effect aren't recomp specific, but they are great for recomp.

If you have any questions, I'm glad to help.
 
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