Best SARM and/or Andro for Recomp

Lift Lion

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I am looking to recomp. I primarily want to go from 2-pack abs to 4-pack abs (let's say 15% bodyfat to 12% bodyfat). I also secondarily want to add 10 lbs to my bench and deadlift (415 > 425 bench, 460 > 470 deadlift).

I have:
LGD4
Ostarine
Hitech Superdrol (which isn't actually Superdrol, it's 4 Andro and 1 Andro)
Torem, Enclom, Clomid, Nolva SERMs for PCT
Exemestane, Anastrozole, Letro for AI

I previously ran Osta, results were good but after a few weeks I felt dead even though my gym performance was great and even when using Torem to keep test up. I decided I didn't want to run an anti-androgen again without a test base. Hence the 4/1 Andro I was going to use as a test base with Osta. I also considered running LGD instead with maintenance eating to try to recomp.

I have seen wildly conflicting info on whether running Andro with Osta will just lead to worse suppression, whether Andro or Osta are more powerful on their own, etc.

What's the best way to recomp?
 
StarScream66

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I would go with the Ostarine again. The 4-DHEA along with the 1-DHEA is going to bloat you up from the testosterone. You won't need to run just a little AI or SERM with the Ostarine. Then save the rest for PCT. You could buy a transdermal 1-DHEA from Apex. I don't know which product it is, but I'm sure someone else here can fill you in.


Or if you wanted to go the oral route, you could buy a couple bottles of HiTech 1-Testosterone which contains 1DHEA that's been esterfied for better oral bioavailability and includes grapefruit juice extract to help it pass through the liver.
 
MadStax

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Maybe grab some Cardarine to stack with the Ostarine? That's the route I would take.
 
thebigt

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I would go with the Ostarine again. The 4-DHEA along with the 1-DHEA is going to bloat you up from the testosterone. You won't need to run just a little AI or SERM with the Ostarine. Then save the rest for PCT. You could buy a transdermal 1-DHEA from Apex. I don't know which product it is, but I'm sure someone else here can fill you in.


Or if you wanted to go the oral route, you could buy a couple bottles of HiTech 1-Testosterone which contains 1DHEA that's been esterfied for better oral bioavailability and includes grapefruit juice extract to help it pass through the liver.
lol...i am planning on running icon one[1-andro] and alpha four [4-andro] next month and i have $10 that says i won't get any bloat....wanna bet?
 
StarScream66

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lol...i am planning on running icon one[1-andro] and alpha four [4-andro] next month and i have $10 that says i won't get any bloat....wanna bet?
Well, I mean it depends on the dosage you're using, obviously. But OP wanted something for cutting and lean gains. 4-DHEA is not something I would consider as a really good addition to getting lean gains.

Paging @Renew1 & @nostrum420 for help with the Apex products.
 
thebigt

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Well, I mean it depends on the dosage you're using, obviously. But OP wanted something for cutting and lean gains. 4-DHEA is not something I would consider as a really good addition to getting lean gains.

Paging @Renew1 & @nostrum420 for help with the Apex products.
lol...this is a bullshyt post...what the hell do those guys have to do with your nonsensical opinions?

c'mon man--lets keep it real here!!!
 
MadStax

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lol...this is a bullshyt post...what the hell do those guys have to do with your nonsensical opinions?

c'mon man--lets keep it real here!!!
I believe he was tagging them to figure out which product Apex has that contains 1-DHEA, not for them to defend his info.

That said, it is news to me that it will make you bloated. My understanding was that it did the opposite.
 
thebigt

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I believe he was tagging them to figure out which product Apex has that contains 1-DHEA, not for them to defend his info.

That said, it is news to me that it will make you bloated. My understanding was that it did the opposite.
(y)
 
StarScream66

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lol...this is a bullshyt post...what the hell do those guys have to do with your nonsensical opinions?

c'mon man--lets keep it real here!!!
No, bro, I'm not paging them to call you out. I was paging them so they could come help OP pick out something from Apex.

I'm not trying to call you out for BS or anything, all I'm saying is 4-DHEA isn't ideal for lean body composition that OP wants to go for. But, if he wants to try 1-DHEA + 4-DHEA he is more than welcome to do so. It sounds like he has plenty of anti-estrogens to stop any estrogen conversion from the 4-DHEA.
 
thebigt

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No, bro, I'm not paging them to call you out. I was paging them so they could come help OP pick out something from Apex.

I'm not trying to call you out for BS or anything, all I'm saying is 4-DHEA isn't ideal for lean body composition that OP wants to go for. But, if he wants to try 1-DHEA + 4-DHEA he is more than welcome to do so. It sounds like he has plenty of anti-estrogens to stop any estrogen conversion from the 4-DHEA.
1-andro from my experience is real good for recomp but comes with some lethargy, loss of libido in 2nd month when it starts to shine---the 4-andro is there for preventing the sides. this is my plan of attack when i run them next month.
 
StarScream66

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1-andro from my experience is real good for recomp but comes with some lethargy, loss of libido in 2nd month when it starts to shine---the 4-andro is there for preventing the sides. this is my plan of attack when i run them next month.
Sounds good. I hope we cleared up the 'beef' from my earlier post. I wasn't trying to disrespect you, so I hope you didn't take it like that.
 
Renew1

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Well, I mean it depends on the dosage you're using, obviously. But OP wanted something for cutting and lean gains. 4-DHEA is not something I would consider as a really good addition to getting lean gains.

Paging @Renew1 & @nostrum420 for help with the Apex products.

Thanks brother.
We don't currently have a 1-Andro product in the line-up (you are correct, that we have had one previously).

I'm a big fan of Stanogen, personally.
I'll drop a link to all Apex-Alchemy products below.
OP, and ANYONE always feel free to send me a PM to ask questions about our products (or anything else).

 
StarScream66

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Thanks brother.
We don't currently have a 1-Andro product in the line-up (you are correct, that we have had one previously).

I'm a big fan of Stanogen, personally.
I'll drop a link to all Apex-Alchemy products below.
OP, and ANYONE always feel free to send me a PM to ask questions about our products (or anything else).

Can you tell me what's in the ingredients in each of them? I don't recognize any of those names. Are they nomenclature for something else?
 
Renew1

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Can you tell me what's in the ingredients in each of them? I don't recognize any of those names. Are they nomenclature for something else?

On the site, if you click on each product, below the name will be a small pic of the ingredients and dosage of the product. Click the small pic, and it will expand to a large one.

Below that (under each product, on their individual pages), there will be a brief description of the product, and more useful information.

If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to ask.

:)
 
Whisky

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Hey bro
I am looking to recomp. I primarily want to go from 2-pack abs to 4-pack abs (let's say 15% bodyfat to 12% bodyfat). I also secondarily want to add 10 lbs to my bench and deadlift (415 > 425 bench, 460 > 470 deadlift).

I have:
LGD4
Ostarine
Hitech Superdrol (which isn't actually Superdrol, it's 4 Andro and 1 Andro)
Torem, Enclom, Clomid, Nolva SERMs for PCT
Exemestane, Anastrozole, Letro for AI

I previously ran Osta, results were good but after a few weeks I felt dead even though my gym performance was great and even when using Torem to keep test up. I decided I didn't want to run an anti-androgen again without a test base. Hence the 4/1 Andro I was going to use as a test base with Osta. I also considered running LGD instead with maintenance eating to try to recomp.

I have seen wildly conflicting info on whether running Andro with Osta will just lead to worse suppression, whether Andro or Osta are more powerful on their own, etc.

What's the best way to recomp?
Hey bro, first up that’s a great bench number (dead is a solid number but way lower than I would expect given your bench so I’m assuming short arms??) - any which way benching that basically natty is impressive imo.

I’ve run 1/4 andro before and didn’t notice any bloat. Epiandro is a very nice addition to that stack for strength and recomp. The amount of 4 andro won’t be enough to cause high estrogen, either the 1-step or the 2-step conversion rate (I forget which) is 15.76% so you know it’s not more than that. Basically the 4 andro at normal dosing will just about replace natural levels and take the edge off the suppression. The 1-andro will do the work.

add epiandro and some cardio and you’ll recomp nicely off that plus hit your strength goals imho

I personally don’t think osta is enough to achieve your goals btw
 

Lift Lion

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Hey bro, first up that’s a great bench number (dead is a solid number but way lower than I would expect given your bench so I’m assuming short arms??) - any which way benching that basically natty is impressive imo.

I’ve run 1/4 andro before and didn’t notice any bloat. Epiandro is a very nice addition to that stack for strength and recomp. The amount of 4 andro won’t be enough to cause high estrogen, either the 1-step or the 2-step conversion rate (I forget which) is 15.76% so you know it’s not more than that. Basically the 4 andro at normal dosing will just about replace natural levels and take the edge off the suppression. The 1-andro will do the work.

add epiandro and some cardio and you’ll recomp nicely off that plus hit your strength goals imho

I personally don’t think osta is enough to achieve your goals btw
Thanks, I've got a bad back, hence the lower dead number. So you'd do Andro instead of SARMs?

Favorite SARM for cutting is Tren
That is the correct answer, but not looking to do that currently. Although I've considered trest.

Maybe grab some Cardarine to stack with the Ostarine? That's the route I would take.
Not a fan of the cancer risk in lab studies.

1-andro from my experience is real good for recomp but comes with some lethargy, loss of libido in 2nd month when it starts to shine---the 4-andro is there for preventing the sides. this is my plan of attack when i run them next month.
This was my thought as well. I think running 1 Andro solo is going to give bad lethargy. The whole point of adding Andro into the Ostarine was to get a test base.
 
Whisky

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Thanks, I've got a bad back, hence the lower dead number. So you'd do Andro instead of SARMs?



That is the correct answer, but not looking to do that currently. Although I've considered trest.



Not a fan of the cancer risk in lab studies.



This was my thought as well. I think running 1 Andro solo is going to give bad lethargy. The whole point of adding Andro into the Ostarine was to get a test base.
ah fair enough re the dead. Shame about the back as your obviously strong AF so would be good to see what you could do without a problem

I’d definitely do 1/4 andro over probably any sarm but definitely over osta
 

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I'll just say that I preferred and got better results from 1/4 Andro's than my Osta, Lgd and Rad 140 cycles.
 

Lift Lion

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I'll just say that I preferred and got better results from 1/4 Andro's than my Osta, Lgd and Rad 140 cycles.
ah fair enough re the dead. Shame about the back as your obviously strong AF so would be good to see what you could do without a problem

I’d definitely do 1/4 andro over probably any sarm but definitely over osta
Thanks Jim and Whiskey, I've heard really conflicting info on SARM vs Prohormone, so appreciate your first hand knowledge.
 
Hyde

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Thanks Jim and Whiskey, I've heard really conflicting info on SARM vs Prohormone, so appreciate your first hand knowledge.
I was just playing about the Tren, sorry

Andros give more size and strength for me than those SARMs as well, although I do like RAD140 and even think 10-20mg of it stacks well with almost anything. Makes me stronger, partitions nutrients better, good libido, makes me kinda testy.
 
delsolrob

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If this is still something you're looking into - gotta check out the pre sale for Ultra Eleven

each application of Ultra Eleven contains 200mg 11-ketotestosterone - this is a limited one time offering, as the raws for making 11-keto are not going to be available in China going forward - this is likely the last of 11-keto...at least for a while.

 
BCseacow83

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I am not going to read the whole thing but NO ONE is going to get fat from 4-dhea, I don't care what dose they use. If you got fat it is from your diet and exercise routine.
 
Hyde

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I am not going to read the whole thing but NO ONE is going to get fat from 4-dhea, I don't care what dose they use. If you got fat it is from your diet and exercise routine.
I always got bloated (I’m a heavy aromatizer). I think some guys get bloated and they mistake water for fat.

I’ve also always only taken more 4andro than I could actually properly convert (600-1,000mg daily). I didn’t understand that back then.
 
BCseacow83

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I always got bloated (I’m a heavy aromatizer). I think some guys get bloated and they mistake water for fat.

I’ve also always only taken more 4andro than I could actually properly convert (600-1,000mg daily). I didn’t understand that back then.
Water and bloat yes but if the risk of aromatizing was all it took to increase BF then all AAS with high conversion would have a rep for fat gain, such as dbol and test. I know it is a nitpicky little detail but some of the stuff I see being posted I simply cannot ignore lol.
 

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Hey bro


Hey bro, first up that’s a great bench number (dead is a solid number but way lower than I would expect given your bench so I’m assuming short arms??) - any which way benching that basically natty is impressive imo.

I’ve run 1/4 andro before and didn’t notice any bloat. Epiandro is a very nice addition to that stack for strength and recomp. The amount of 4 andro won’t be enough to cause high estrogen, either the 1-step or the 2-step conversion rate (I forget which) is 15.76% so you know it’s not more than that. Basically the 4 andro at normal dosing will just about replace natural levels and take the edge off the suppression. The 1-andro will do the work.

add epiandro and some cardio and you’ll recomp nicely off that plus hit your strength goals imho

I personally don’t think osta is enough to achieve your goals btw

Im feeling the same with this. I ran a Epi/1/4 as first cycle. I did a SARMS cycle of RAD/Osta/S4 and wasn't as good for me. and it was a hell of a lot more expensive. I'm a big fan of Epiandro and would still use it preworkout when I ran a test P cycle
 
StarScream66

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I am not going to read the whole thing but NO ONE is going to get fat from 4-dhea, I don't care what dose they use. If you got fat it is from your diet and exercise routine.
Depends on how much you're using. Remember, 4-DHEA is also converting to 4-androstenedione which aromatizes more heavily than it converts to testosterone. But, it also converts to 4-androstenediol which can't interact with the aromatese enzyme at all. We have no idea how much gets converts to what and I'm sure it depends person to person.
 
BCseacow83

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Depends on how much you're using. Remember, 4-DHEA is also converting to 4-androstenedione which aromatizes more heavily than it converts to testosterone. But, it also converts to 4-androstenediol which can't interact with the aromatese enzyme at all. We have no idea how much gets converts to what and I'm sure it depends person to person.
Even the original androstenedione did not induce fat gain. I know this as I used it in the 90's. Have you actually used these things or are you posting hypotheticals based on "research?"
 
StarScream66

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Even the original androstenedione did not induce fat gain. I know this as I used it in the 90's. Have you actually used these things or are you posting hypotheticals based on "research?"
Estrogen doesn't necessarily induce fat gain, but it can produce bloat. But, it depends on a lot of factors with 4DHEA since we have no idea which hormone is getting getting converted more readily - the diol or dione and it probably depends each individual.
 
Afi140

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If this is still something you're looking into - gotta check out the pre sale for Ultra Eleven

each application of Ultra Eleven contains 200mg 11-ketotestosterone - this is a limited one time offering, as the raws for making 11-keto are not going to be available in China going forward - this is likely the last of 11-keto...at least for a while.

Iconic just keeps coming with the heat. Sad to see it to but definitely a good chance for people looking to stock up
 
AndroRage

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I was just playing about the Tren, sorry

Andros give more size and strength for me than those SARMs as well, although I do like RAD140 and even think 10-20mg of it stacks well with almost anything. Makes me stronger, partitions nutrients better, good libido, makes me kinda testy.
Hi mate, I’ve read a lot of your posts and see your use of compounds is more extensive than most. I see your joke about Tren, we’re you joking about rad making you testy?

what are your experiences with RAD? It’s a sarm ive never used as seen to hear such contrasting info on. It’s harsh, it’s not harsh. It’s ‘dry’ it’s not ‘dry’.

we both know you can cut-bulk ok anything. It annoys me when those dude say “there are no cutting or bulking compounds, it’s all about diet blah blah blah”.

but we both know it’s more optimal to cut on Wini than Dbol (I’ve tried the latter and the former). And more optimal to ‘bulk’ on nandrolone than drostanolone...

What are feelings about RAD and what it’s optimally used for and it’s potency in terms of efficiency and potential sides?

Thanks again
 
Hyde

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Hi mate, I’ve read a lot of your posts and see your use of compounds is more extensive than most. I see your joke about Tren, we’re you joking about rad making you testy?

what are your experiences with RAD? It’s a sarm ive never used as seen to hear such contrasting info on. It’s harsh, it’s not harsh. It’s ‘dry’ it’s not ‘dry’.

we both know you can cut-bulk ok anything. It annoys me when those dude say “there are no cutting or bulking compounds, it’s all about diet blah blah blah”.

but we both know it’s more optimal to cut on Wini than Dbol (I’ve tried the latter and the former). And more optimal to ‘bulk’ on nandrolone than drostanolone...

What are feelings about RAD and what it’s optimally used for and it’s potency in terms of efficiency and potential sides?

Thanks again
I have used it a few times, 15-20mg solo once and 30mg a couple times in stacks as I recall. It does make me more aggressive/testy, truly.

I think it’s probably “harsh” to newbie Redditors who think anything with more side effects than creatine is “harsh” because all they’ve ever run is 20mg Ostarine or 10mg LGD, but I don’t consider it harsh at all compared to any methyl oral remotely.

I feel it’s a better recomp/cutter. I mean it’s great in a lower dose of 15-20mg in a bulk for a bit of added strength & aggression, a bit more pumps/hardness, it helps protect from prostate hypertrophy & gyno by more aggressively binding than DHT & estrogen (respectively in those 2 scenarios) if running some testosterone.

Chimp study found that around 12mg human equivalent dose gave 90% of maximal lean mass gains, and further ramping up the dose basically really only drove fat loss. I feel like that kinda seems how it plays out in real world for me - I like 30mg better, but it doesn’t add more than a few lbs of muscle for me even with double the dose of 15mg - it just added more strength/hardening.

They just released a recent study where they gave women up to 150mg/day for months on end, I recall something like 6. They established that most women did fine to complete the treatment at 50mg daily although almost half did see elevated liver enzymes at that dosage. 100mg was not as well tolerated and only one or two women rode out the 150mg. But we are seeing you could run bigger doses, but I’m not sure it’s going to play out as appreciably much more muscle.
 
AndroRage

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I have used it a few times, 15-20mg solo once and 30mg a couple times in stacks as I recall. It does make me more aggressive/testy, truly.

I think it’s probably “harsh” to newbie Redditors who think anything with more side effects than creatine is “harsh” because all they’ve ever run is 20mg Ostarine or 10mg LGD, but I don’t consider it harsh at all compared to any methyl oral remotely.

I feel it’s a better recomp/cutter. I mean it’s great in a lower dose of 15-20mg in a bulk for a bit of added strength & aggression, a bit more pumps/hardness, it helps protect from prostate hypertrophy & gyno by more aggressively binding than DHT & estrogen (respectively in those 2 scenarios) if running some testosterone.

Chimp study found that around 12mg human equivalent dose gave 90% of maximal lean mass gains, and further ramping up the dose basically really only drove fat loss. I feel like that kinda seems how it plays out in real world for me - I like 30mg better, but it doesn’t add more than a few lbs of muscle for me even with double the dose of 15mg - it just added more strength/hardening.

They just released a recent study where they gave women up to 150mg/day for months on end, I recall something like 6. They established that most women did fine to complete the treatment at 50mg daily although almost half did see elevated liver enzymes at that dosage. 100mg was not as well tolerated and only one or two women rode out the 150mg. But we are seeing you could run bigger doses, but I’m not sure it’s going to play out as appreciably much more muscle.
Thank you for the detailed post bro. You experiences are a great help. I like the idea of prostate protection also. So by testy, you mean feel good? Or “positive aggression” I call it, very motivated etc

Yeah thanks on info for dosing. I’m looking at 10-20mg and gonna see how it goes.

I’m gonna add Rad-140 to a Test and Mast cycle and stack with S4. I was thinking they may compete for same receptors, so not to then thought. Loads of people stack AAS that are competing for the same receptors all the time so shouldn’t be an issue. Do you feel it would stack well with S4? I’ve used S4 a few times and only side I seem to get is night vision issues and feel good other than that @50mg. May throw some Var in but just concerned with lipids and liver. Will be using cycle support TUDCA and CEL cycle support with fish oils.
 
Hyde

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Thank you for the detailed post bro. You experiences are a great help. I like the idea of prostate protection also. So by testy, you mean feel good? Or “positive aggression” I call it, very motivated etc

Yeah thanks on info for dosing. I’m looking at 10-20mg and gonna see how it goes.

I’m gonna add Rad-140 to a Test and Mast cycle and stack with S4. I was thinking they may compete for same receptors, so not to then thought. Loads of people stack AAS that are competing for the same receptors all the time so shouldn’t be an issue. Do you feel it would stack well with S4? I’ve used S4 a few times and only side I seem to get is night vision issues and feel good other than that @50mg. May throw some Var in but just concerned with lipids and liver. Will be using cycle support TUDCA and CEL cycle support with fish oils.
By testy I mean edgy or a bit unnecessarily aggressive. Not actually irritable all the time, but my fuse is a bit shorter than it should be.

The receptor competition thing is a myth. I mean different hormones do compete and some have higher binding affinity that wins out obviously, but it’s not like adding specific drugs makes the ones you take suddenly not work. There are things that probably lead people to thinking stuff like that, like they can only grow so fast actually anyway and so when they add more gear and don’t see linear increases they blame phenomenons like “receptor competition”. But there’s always been the law of diminishing results. Anyway, you have a **** load of androgen receptors and the body makes MORE as you build more muscle - this is why you will need bigger doses over time to illicit similar effects btw, if you have been growing.

I would say adding Rad would be ideal vs raising the dose of S4 or Test further. After the Rad is on board, you could keep pushing the masteron up from there if you need more dosage increase later in the cycle. Definitely going to be a fairly true lean gains cycle, no extra water with that setup unless you are using a bunch of test.
 
AndroRage

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By testy I mean edgy or a bit unnecessarily aggressive. Not actually irritable all the time, but my fuse is a bit shorter than it should be.

The receptor competition thing is a myth. I mean different hormones do compete and some have higher binding affinity that wins out obviously, but it’s not like adding specific drugs makes the ones you take suddenly not work. There are things that probably lead people to thinking stuff like that, like they can only grow so fast actually anyway and so when they add more gear and don’t see linear increases they blame phenomenons like “receptor competition”. But there’s always been the law of diminishing results. Anyway, you have a **** load of androgen receptors and the body makes MORE as you build more muscle - this is why you will need bigger doses over time to illicit similar effects btw, if you have been growing.

I would say adding Rad would be ideal vs raising the dose of S4 or Test further. After the Rad is on board, you could keep pushing the masteron up from there if you need more dosage increase later in the cycle. Definitely going to be a fairly true lean gains cycle, no extra water with that setup unless you are using a bunch of test.

Thank you once again Hyde, for taking the time to respond. Much appreciated bro.

No, conservative test dose, I like to not use an AI. Can I actually pm you my idea for some critiques?
 

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