Best PA supplement?

Subbed for thoughts as well. I have a feeling you're gonna get mostly sl granules tho as your answer. Too cheap not to try
 
I'd say fearn SL granules. But I was looking at Cutler King...how many caps would be needed to equal the amount of Fearn?
 
booneman77 said:
Subbed for thoughts as well. I have a feeling you're gonna get mostly sl granules tho as your answer. Too cheap not to try
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This. All things considered, meaning that price is a factor, as it is for most people, lecithin granules get the nod as the best source of PA. Concentrated PA supplements are pretty expensive (I'd only consider ones where I know how much PA I'm getting; and yes, you have a range of PA % with granules, so you know about how much you're getting), especially if you want to go above the standard 750mg dose, which a lot of people like to do. The only reason why I'd opt for a concentrated PA supplement over the granules is if you get an upset stomach from the granules (not that common), convenience (sometimes I'd rather take a few pills than have bunch of granules), and/or you're cutting and can't fit the calories and fat into your diet. Another benefit of the lecithin granules is the choline (PC) content. As for the PS content in the granules, research leads us to believe that there is a very relevant amount of PS in lecithin granules with doses commonly used as a PA supplement, but contact and responses from the companies/manufactures of the lecithin granules (that confirm the PA and PC content) seems to be saying that there is no (very little and inconsequential) PS in the granules.

I hope the above paragraph makes sense; I wrote it after taking a bunch of nootropics and whatnot, and didn't bother to go back and proofread it.
 
jgntyce said:
I'd say fearn SL granules. But I was looking at Cutler King...how many caps would be needed to equal the amount of Fearn?
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Who knows. King V1 was a great supplement; 750mg PA at a decent price (especially for a concentrated PA supplement), but with V2, who knows how much PA you're getting. A few members here, myself included, got into a debate or two stating that it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for King V2 to have 750mg PA per serving, and about the dearth of information regarding the Activator PA used in the product. I don't really want to get into that whole rabbit hole again though, as it never really got anywhere...
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Who knows. King V1 was a great supplement; 750mg PA at a decent price (especially for a concentrated PA supplement), but with V2, who knows how much PA you're getting. A few members here, myself included, got into a debate or two stating that it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for King V2 to have 750mg PA per serving, and about the dearth of information regarding the Activator PA used in the product. I don't really want to get into that whole rabbit hole again though, as it never really got anywhere...
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I think the feedback and results from most of the threads I've seen support this thought though as well. V2 took a beating from most users compared to v1
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Who knows. King V1 was a great supplement; 750mg PA at a decent price (especially for a concentrated PA supplement), but with V2, who knows how much PA you're getting. A few members here, myself included, got into a debate or two stating that it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for King V2 to have 750mg PA per serving, and about the dearth of information regarding the Activator PA used in the product. I don't really want to get into that whole rabbit hole again though, as it never really got anywhere...
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If anything, I'll just keep mixing in 2 tbsp each of the granules into my preworkout and post workout shake.
 
VWMeatHead said:
What's the difference between the regular SL granules and fearn SL granules?
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Fearn granules are just de-oiled lecithin granules standardized for 97% phosphatides (highest amount I've seen, along with a few other companies). De-oiled lecithin is going to have more PA than non-de-oiled lecithin.
 
Go for the Fearn Sl granules. Way larger dose of PA and there's other beneficial phospholipids, it's an emulsifier (good for an ArA run), and it's super cheap.
 
Soy granules are amazing. You are getting other phospholipids which have similar effect on mTOR/glycogen retention as PA.

If you want Niagen then KING by Cutler Nutrition could be a good idea. If you are interested in PA then KING v2 would be a bad choice
 
What about liquid. Any good? I assume not as good because not talked about nearly as much
 
VWMeatHead said:
What's the difference between the regular SL granules and fearn SL granules?
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Most people go with Fearn's because they list the PA Content (1.2g per 2 Tbs), seem to always be available (I use Swanson's), and are cheap (~$7 a can). But there are other good ones (and a whole thread on PA).
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Most people go with Fearn's because they list the PA Content (1.2g per 2 Tbs), seem to always be available (I use Swanson's), and are cheap (~$7 a can). But there are other good ones (and a whole thread on PA).
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AFAIK those numbers are just based off of ranges, ours will have a precise amount of PA third party tested by the most accredited lab in the US, Chromadex.
 
Olympus Labs said:
AFAIK those numbers are just based off of ranges, ours will have a precise amount of PA third party tested by the most accredited lab in the US, Chromadex.
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While you fellas have them on the phone, consider inquiring about the long lost BPI 3rd party testing records...
 
Olympus Labs said:
AFAIK those numbers are just based off of ranges, ours will have a precise amount of PA third party tested by the most accredited lab in the US, Chromadex.
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Yes, the 8% PA listed on Fearn is not an exact number, and it's more likely to be around 7% than 8% from what I've seen, if I'm being picky, and probably within the range of 4-7%, so I try to get 750mg PA calculated with the 4% minimum.

I'm very interested in PhosphaS1ZE, hopefully it's well priced.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Yes, the 8% PA listed on Fearn is not an exact number, and it's more likely to be around 7% than 8% from what I've seen, if I'm being picky, and probably within the range of 4-7%, so I try to get 750mg PA calculated with the 4% minimum.

I'm very interested in PhosphaS1ZE, hopefully it's well priced.
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There are two points to the testing of the phosphatide content, one is detection, and the second is the amount. As I said it will be a FIRST AFAIK for any company to do so outside of the patented extract version, doing any independently contracted phosphatide content testing.

These companies selling granules are selling granules bought in bulk, going off COA's, and probably not doing any QC testing, or at least advertising/showing it. So going off ranges is just mere speculation, we wanted to test for the precise amount so users knew how much PA they were getting.
 
Olympus Labs said:
There are two points to the testing of the phosphatide content, one is detection, and the second is the amount. As I said it will be a FIRST AFAIK for any company to do so outside of the patented extract version, doing any independently contracted phosphatide content testing.

These companies selling granules are selling granules bought in bulk, going off COA's, and probably not doing any QC testing, or at least advertising/showing it. So going off ranges is just mere speculation, we wanted to test for the precise amount so users knew how much PA they were getting.
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I've discussed this multiple times in multiple threads on multiple forums. I am basing my 4-7% range on quite a few factors, including COAs and product specification sheets from, and conversations with, companies and manufactures (including minimum total phosphatide standardization, individual phospholipid ranges, and average phospholipid content), as well as multiple papers on the subject. I can't give you an exact PA % in de-oiled lecithin granules, but I certainly would not say that the range is "mere speculation."

Yes, knowing EXACTLY how much PA you're getting is very nice, and worth a premium, as is a more concentrated PA supplement (which I'm assuming that your supplement is going to be), so I'll be keeping an eye out to see what the serving size and price for PhosphaS1ZE is.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I've discussed this multiple times in multiple threads on multiple forums. I am basing my 4-7% range on quite a few factors, including COAs and product specification sheets from, and conversations with, companies and manufactures (including minimum total phosphatide standardization, individual phospholipid ranges, and average phospholipid content), as well as multiple papers on the subject. I can't give you an exact PA % in de-oiled lecithin granules, but I certainly would not say that the range is "mere speculation."

Yes, knowing EXACTLY how much PA you're getting is very nice, and worth a premium, as is a more concentrated PA supplement (which I'm assuming that your supplement is going to be), so I'll be keeping an eye out to see what the serving size and price for PhosphaS1ZE is.
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Its impossible for a PA concentrate to be more cost effective than a soy lecithin extract.

You nailed it with "paying attention to serving size and cost", this is why we chose to extract it from soy lec with the third party analyte testing of course and include PA into a more staple style supplement that everyone will enjoy, I'm sure!
 
Olympus Labs said:
Its impossible for a PA concentrate to be more cost effective than a soy lecithin extract.

You nailed it with "paying attention to serving size and cost", this is why we chose to extract it from soy lec with the third party analyte testing of course and include PA into a more staple style supplement that everyone will enjoy, I'm sure!
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ETA? Haha.
 
Olympus Labs said:
AFAIK those numbers are just based off of ranges, ours will have a precise amount of PA third party tested by the most accredited lab in the US, Chromadex.
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Ok, well the label says 1200mg. If it's less, well, that's why I eat 4 Tbs, LOL. That's over 3 times the amount shown to be ergogenic in the studies. I think it's great you're coming out with a PA product with an exact amount that's certified (although I think this '3rd party testing' mantra is abused by some companies ((not you)) - for a decent price apparently. I'd just caution against casting too many aspersions on the Granules to try to sell pills... At $7 a can, we can eat a lot of them and still not be out of pocket that much. We also have Dr. Wilson stating that eating granules is a damn good way to get PA and other benefits. I'd concentrate on the macros, possible gastro issues, convenience, etc... The last company that tried to deride the granules, probably didn't win over too many customers - it comes across as shilling, to me any way.
 
Olympus Labs said:
You nailed it with "paying attention to serving size and cost", this is why we chose to extract it from soy lec with the third party analyte testing of course and include PA into a more staple style supplement that everyone will enjoy, I'm sure!
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How many caps/gels per 750mg PA approximately? I hope for less than 4
 
machinehead said:
How many caps/gels per 750mg PA approximately? I hope for less than 4
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I'm more concerned with the price to be honest. The difference between 3 and 5 caps doesn't really matter to me as much as the price does. Just the convenience of having it as capsules instead of having to mix and drink granules is the biggest benefit imo. I'm just hoping it'll be a good bit cheaper than PhosphaMuscle.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I'm more concerned with the price to be honest. The difference between 3 and 5 caps doesn't really matter to me as much as the price does. Just the convenience of having it as capsules instead of having to mix and drink granules is the biggest benefit imo. I'm just hoping it'll be a good bit cheaper than PhosphaMuscle.
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Agreed. I think price is most important. I don't care about cap count since I'm gonna do it all in one sitting then move on with my life.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Ok, well the label says 1200mg. If it's less, well, that's why I eat 4 Tbs, LOL. That's over 3 times the amount shown to be ergogenic in the studies. I think it's great you're coming out with a PA product with an exact amount that's certified (although I think this '3rd party testing' mantra is abused by some companies ((not you)) - for a decent price apparently. I'd just caution against casting too many aspersions on the Granules to try to sell pills... At $7 a can, we can eat a lot of them and still not be out of pocket that much. We also have Dr. Wilson stating that eating granules is a damn good way to get PA and other benefits. I'd concentrate on the macros, possible gastro issues, convenience, etc... The last company that tried to deride the granules, probably didn't win over too many customers - it comes across as shilling, to me any way.
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Well said, and we shall not forget this setence from one study:

"(phosphatidylcholine (PC), phosphatidylserine (PS), phosphatidylethanolamine (PE) or phosphatidylinositol (PI)), have a similar ability to activate mTOR signaling"

So, even making 100% soy enriched PA product , it would not beat soy granules at all.

Like I said many times, Concentrated PA products are good for :
-Those who are on diet
-getting stomach issues of SLG
-Hate taste

Even those who have soy allergy can eat Soy lecithin due to low % of Soy protein in granules.

I personaly prefer PA caps due to long lasting aftertaste of SLG and I will continue with my PA caps but concentrated PA products are NOT better than SLG. There is no absorption/bioavailability issues with phospholipids and enriching method let us consume less caps to get the good dose of PA.

Conclution:
There is a place for enriched PA products in supplement industry but it will never beat/be better than SLG.
There was one company rep who tried to fool people on different forums but he lost that war
 
It will be a flavored powder, 30 servings, and be an integral part of a bigger formula. We read the forums and debated each and every point thats been made here. The product itself will combine ergogenic ingredients with Soy lec extracted for phosphatides being one of the ingredients.

More info will drop soon.
 
Olympus Labs said:
It will be a flavored powder, 30 servings, and be an integral part of a bigger formula. We read the forums and debated each and every point thats been made here. The product itself will combine ergogenic ingredients with Soy lec extracted for phosphatides being one of the ingredients.

More info will drop soon.
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And I bet it will be a good product
 
Olympus Labs said:
It will be a flavored powder, 30 servings, and be an integral part of a bigger formula. We read the forums and debated each and every point thats been made here. The product itself will combine ergogenic ingredients with Soy lec extracted for phosphatides being one of the ingredients.

More info will drop soon.
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Color me interested. A while back I said I wouldn't be surprised to see a company use powdered lecithin granules as part of a supplement, but that getting it to mix well and taste good would be a bit of a challenge (I ground up the granules and mixed them with various pre-workout supplements, and, while the end result was more than tolerable for me, it certainly wasn't something that would be adequate for a finished product on the market), and the calories and fat present would likely turn a lot of people off as well.

You mention "Soy lec extracted for phosphatides." So does this mean that you'll be using an extract standardized for other phosphatides in addition to PA? (I assume it will at least be standardized for PA, as we already have granules standardized for 97% phosphatides). Since the granules are already basically all phosphatides (97%), I assume your extract will be higher in PA (and perhaps other beneficial ergogenic ingredients like PS), and lower in other phosphatides that we don't' really care for as much?
 
They have PS in Vital1ty so it may or may not show up here but it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the plural.
 
machinehead said:
They have PS in Vital1ty so it may or may not show up here but it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the plural.
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I was thinking that as well. PS is also a great ingredient, and, as I'm sure OL read in our discussions, apparently is present only in trivial quantities in the lecithin granules we're all using, so perhaps they'll have both PA and PS in ergogenic quantities. I'm just hoping their extract is SIGNIFICANTLY more concentrated for PA than the 4-7% the granules are (to minimize calories and fat, as well as to improve taste, mixability, and minimize the chance of stomach upset). I know they're better than just throwing in some 97% phosphatide lecithin granule powder into their mix with the only extra step being them testing each batch for a minimum PA content; I think it's safe to expect a more concentrated PA extract.
 
I asked about the caps size and we got that it's powder.

Now you can ask about the calories in a serving so we can figure out the PA concentration :D
 
machinehead said:
I asked about the caps size and we got that it's powder.

Now you can ask about the calories in a serving so we can figure out the PA concentration :D
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Yep. If all they did is bring the lecithin powder to a 3rd party lab to ensure a minimum PA content (but didn't significantly increase the PA % relative to plain old lecithin granules) as opposed to having to rely on a range of PA (that is still accurate, and most certainly not just guesswork or assumptions), I'll be very disappointed, but I really don't think they're going to do that.
 
Just for the record, I decided to try another granule powder mixture. I took 18.75g of de-oiled lecithin granules standardized for 97% phosphatides (or 750mg PA calculated with 4% PA), and threw them with 1 serving of a flavored pre-workout supplement in a Nutribullet with a milling blade. I mixed/ground the two together for a little while until the mixture appeared to be homogeneous (it didn't take long at all). The result was a powder that actually clumped less than a handful of commercial pre-workout supplements that contain HydroMax glycerol. I then poured the powder into a shaker bottle with a ball and 8 oz water and shook it for a few seconds. The end result was not oily at all, did not have any chunks or clumps, and still tasted good (enough to be a finished product even). So, with that said, OL, I'm really hoping you guys have a significantly more concentrated PA extract. :)
 
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