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Article: Best Mass Building Foods

Misfit28 said:
How low on fat do you go? I personally don't go lower than .45g per pound of BW.
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I don't have a set number. Obviously you need some in your diet. I take in enough healhty fats during the day to meet my needs. I'm sure someone that reads this article might be able to guide you along the lines of an appropriate ratio.
 
I don't go by ratios, actually. Like I said I go by .45g pound as a minimum amount. I get over 100g of fat every day and my blood lipids are excellent. My body fat percentage is also going down as I am gaining muscle.

I wasn't asking for a recommendation, I was just curious. The .45g per pound is actually derived from clinical observations. I need to find the link to the study, but I think people eat far too little fat to maintain optimum hormone production.
 
Misfit28 said:
I don't go by ratios, actually. Like I said I go by .45g pound as a minimum amount. I get over 100g of fat every day and my blood lipids are excellent. My body fat percentage is also going down as I am gaining muscle.

I wasn't asking for a recommendation, I was just curious. The .45g per pound is actually derived from clinical observations. I need to find the link to the study, but I think people eat far too little fat to maintain optimum hormone production.
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I meant as a ratio per meal.. how do you break that up throughout the day?
 
Just an innocent observation here, you are precise about your fat intake however you don't keep track of your fat intake? .45 per 100 however you don't keep track? Ill say again, very specific .45 per 100 but you don't keep track?
 
sweatymoo said:
Just an innocent observation here, you are precise about your fat intake however you don't keep track of your fat intake? .45 per 100 however you don't keep track? Ill say again, very specific .45 per 100 but you don't keep track?
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His mom tracks it for him duh what did think....
 
Misfit28 said:
Check this one out as well. It is about protein, but worth the read IMO: Invalid Link Removed
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.82/lb of bw isn't definitive either once you look into the studies. You're actually probably better off at 1-1.3+ in a hypo-caloric state for muscle sparing purposes (see Mettler et al). Honestly though we don't have the research yet to say for sure what the maximum efficacious amount of protein is, and likely won't till we see a good study done with lbm markers rather than bw.
 
sweatymoo said:
"Nutrient timing is irrelevant"


WTF?
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You might as well say "Hormonal response to food is irrelevant." Maybe not the best approach when it's probably the best way for a "natural" athlete to effect nutrient partitioning.
 
sweatymoo said:
Just an innocent observation here, you are precise about your fat intake however you don't keep track of your fat intake? .45 per 100 however you don't keep track? Ill say again, very specific .45 per 100 but you don't keep track?
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I track everything I eat. However, my MINIMUM amount of fat intake is .45g per lb of BW.

What I have been doing is pretty successful, IMO, as I have lost ~115 lbs. to date.
 
Mikeyjd said:
You might as well say "Hormonal response to food is irrelevant." Maybe not the best approach when it's probably the best way for a "natural" athlete to effect nutrient partitioning.
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You ever read any Alan Aragon? Invalid Link Removed
 
Mikeyjd said:
You might as well say "Hormonal response to food is irrelevant." Maybe not the best approach when it's probably the best way for a "natural" athlete to effect nutrient partitioning.
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So are you a "1 hour window" kinda guy or something?
 
Misfit28 said:
Thanks for the intelligent input.
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A lighthearted joke, with no offense meant.


Misfit28 said:
So are you a "1 hour window" kinda guy or something?
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By no means. All I'm saying is that our body's will have a certain anabolic/catabolic reaction to our training/eating. Fats/Carbs/Pro/BCAA's/EEA's all can be used to some degree to manipulate the situation, even it's to a very minor degree, it's one of the natural athletes best options for staying lean while gaining muscle.

Misfit28 said:
You ever read any Alan Aragon? Invalid Link Removed
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Of course :) He's brilliant and I respect him highly and above most experts in the field. To quote the study you posted: "Considering the totality of evidence, maintaining a high intramuscular glycogen content at the onset of training appears beneficial to desired resistance training outcomes." Thus why I am a proponent of pre-workout carbs. Think slow cooked steel cut oats with honey and blueberriers with raw grass fed goats milk, 3g Leucine, 10g quality casien or whey, 90-120 minutes before resistance training. Then peri-workout 3gLeu, 20-30g Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin or nothing, depending on intensity and length (I benefit much on legs day from this protocol.) Post workout I don't see any rush for nutrient intake. Maybe a steak or chicken with white basmati rice or sweet potatoes and veggies. I also like blueberries/greek yogurt/oatmeal or granola 2 hours before bed to attenuate full liver glycogen replenishment as I won't be taking in much for carbs until my next pre-workout. Last but not least, as I'm sure you know quite well, don't ever underestimate "calories in vs. calories out". It will be the deciding factor when it's all said and done.
 
Mikeyjd said:
A lighthearted joke, with no offense meant.
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Gotcha ;)




By no means. All I'm saying is that our body's will have a certain anabolic/catabolic reaction to our training/eating. Fats/Carbs/Pro/BCAA's/EEA's all can be used to some degree to manipulate the situation, even it's to a very minor degree, it's one of the natural athletes best options for staying lean while gaining muscle.
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Agreed. My whole point is that people seem set on eating low fat on bulking diets, when you need said fat for optimum hormone production. IMO, the only people who don't need fats are those who are not "natural". You don't need to worry about optimum hormone production when you are relying on exogenous means ;)

I also think using ratios for macronutrient levels is silly. Especially concerning each meal having a specific ratio.



Of course :) He's brilliant and I respect him highly and above most experts in the field. To quote the study you posted: "Considering the totality of evidence, maintaining a high intramuscular glycogen content at the onset of training appears beneficial to desired resistance training outcomes." Thus why I am a proponent of pre-workout carbs. Think slow cooked steel cut oats with honey and blueberriers with raw grass fed goats milk, 3g Leucine, 10g quality casien or whey, 90-120 minutes before resistance training. Then peri-workout 3gLeu, 20-30g Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin or nothing, depending on intensity and length (I benefit much on legs day from this protocol.) Post workout I don't see any rush for nutrient intake. Maybe a steak or chicken with white basmati rice or sweet potatoes and veggies. I also like blueberries/greek yogurt/oatmeal or granola 2 hours before bed to attenuate full liver glycogen replenishment as I won't be taking in much for carbs until my next pre-workout. Last but not least, as I'm sure you know quite well, don't ever underestimate "calories in vs. calories out". It will be the deciding factor when it's all said and done.
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Also agreed. I personally enjoy fasted training, as eating beforehand isn't easy for me (I work out before work) and eating beforehand makes me feel too bloated/nauseated during intense training for some reason.
 
Misfit28 said:
Also agreed. I personally enjoy fasted training, as eating beforehand isn't easy for me (I work out before work) and eating beforehand makes me feel too bloated/nauseated during intense training for some reason.
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I've tried fasted training, it was hit and miss as far as my strength/endurance was concerned. A small carb-up about 90minutes preworkout does wonders on that front for me. I think fasted training is a great way to lose weight and for conditioning purposes. As for gaining muscle mass you're probably not optimizing your workouts if your training fasted. It all comes down to goals though, and if it fits into your goals then I support it :)
 
Mikeyjd said:
I've tried fasted training, it was hit and miss as far as my strength/endurance was concerned. A small carb-up about 90minutes preworkout does wonders on that front for me. I think fasted training is a great way to lose weight and for conditioning purposes. As for gaining muscle mass you're probably not optimizing your workouts if your training fasted. It all comes down to goals though, and if it fits into your goals then I support it :)
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The problem is that I already get up at 4:30AM to train. Getting up earlier to eat 90 minutes before that would be a little problematic ;)

I use BCAAs pre and intraworkout and my strength is going up so far.
 
Misfit28 said:
The problem is that I already get up at 4:30AM to train. Getting up earlier to eat 90 minutes before that would be a little problematic ;)

I use BCAAs pre and intraworkout and my strength is going up so far.
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Yeah that's a limiting factor for you. Keep working hard eat right and you will make gains. Your 155lb loss is very inspiring indeed. Optimal is relative to our situations. I wonder if switching your WO to later in the day might have it's benefits if you were trying to maximize muscle gains.

In an elegant single-blinded design, Cribb and Hayes [70] found a significant benefit to post-exercise protein consumption in 23 recreational male bodybuilders. Subjects were randomly divided into either a PRE-POST group that consumed a supplement containing protein, carbohydrate and creatine immediately before and after training or a MOR-EVE group that consumed the same supplement in the morning and evening at least 5 hours outside the workout. Both groups performed regimented resistance training that progressively increased intensity from 70% 1RM to 95% 1RM over the course of 10 weeks. Results showed that the PRE-POST group achieved a significantly greater increase in lean body mass and increased type II fiber area compared to MOR-EVE. Findings support the benefits of nutrient timing on training-induced muscular adaptations. The study was limited by the addition of creatine monohydrate to the supplement, which may have facilitated increased uptake following training. Moreover, the fact that the supplement was taken both pre- and post-workout confounds whether an anabolic window mediated results
 
This might be relevant for your regimen, since you're training is pretty much fasted (BCAA's).

Despite claims that immediate post-exercise nutritional intake is essential to maximize hypertrophic gains, evidence-based support for such an “anabolic window of opportunity” is far from definitive. The hypothesis is based largely on the pre-supposition that training is carried out in a fasted state. During fasted exercise, a concomitant increase in muscle protein breakdown causes the pre-exercise net negative amino acid balance to persist in the post-exercise period despite training-induced increases in muscle protein synthesis [36]. Thus, in the case of resistance training after an overnight fast, it would make sense to provide immediate nutritional intervention--ideally in the form of a combination of protein and carbohydrate--for the purposes of promoting muscle protein synthesis and reducing proteolysis, thereby switching a net catabolic state into an anabolic one. Over a chronic period, this tactic could conceivably lead cumulatively to an increased rate of gains in muscle mass.
 
Mikeyjd said:
This might be relevant for your regimen, since you're training is pretty much fasted (BCAA's).

Despite claims that immediate post-exercise nutritional intake is essential to maximize hypertrophic gains, evidence-based support for such an “anabolic window of opportunity” is far from definitive. The hypothesis is based largely on the pre-supposition that training is carried out in a fasted state. During fasted exercise, a concomitant increase in muscle protein breakdown causes the pre-exercise net negative amino acid balance to persist in the post-exercise period despite training-induced increases in muscle protein synthesis [36]. Thus, in the case of resistance training after an overnight fast, it would make sense to provide immediate nutritional intervention--ideally in the form of a combination of protein and carbohydrate--for the purposes of promoting muscle protein synthesis and reducing proteolysis, thereby switching a net catabolic state into an anabolic one. Over a chronic period, this tactic could conceivably lead cumulatively to an increased rate of gains in muscle mass.
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Might have to give it a try sometime. Another limiter is the fact that I have to pay an extra $10 a month to go during "peak hours" at my gym. Sucks ass.

Maybe a quick banana and protein shake as soon as I get up might work.
 
Misfit28 said:
Might have to give it a try sometime. Another limiter is the fact that I have to pay an extra $10 a month to go during "peak hours" at my gym. Sucks ass.

Maybe a quick banana and protein shake as soon as I get up might work.
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I think you will experience less Muscle Protein Breakdown if you get 20g pro before you workout. If you are going for maximal gains/intensity the carbs are likely attenuate better performance and endurance (plus you'll likely feel much better). If you are still keying in on fat loss you might be better served to do a cardio session later in the day (I'm a HIIT cycling proponent Invalid Link Removed) to raise resting metabolic rates.
 
Mikeyjd said:
I think you will experience less Muscle Protein Breakdown if you get 20g pro before you workout. If you are going for maximal gains/intensity the carbs are likely attenuate better performance and endurance (plus you'll likely feel much better). If you are still keying in on fat loss you might be better served to do a cardio session later in the day (I'm a HIIT cycling proponent Invalid Link Removed) to raise resting metabolic rates.
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Thanks for the tips. I'm trying to get to about 15% BF at this point. No set weight in mind. I'd like to do it with lean mass gains, and so far it has been going pretty well. I suppose I'm using a "clean bulk" strategy.

I've been thinking of adding in HIIT sprinting, but the cycling may be easier on the joints and less likely to cause injury ;)
 
Misfit28 said:
Thanks for the tips. I'm trying to get to about 15% BF at this point. No set weight in mind. I'd like to do it with lean mass gains, and so far it has been going pretty well. I suppose I'm using a "clean bulk" strategy.

I've been thinking of adding in HIIT sprinting, but the cycling may be easier on the joints and less likely to cause injury ;)
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According to Dr. Jacob Wilson, cycling is significantly more muscle sparing than sprints due to the lack of eccentric muscle trauma. Both have the same metabolic benefits. If you get a chance listen to that interview on Muscle College Radio. It's a good one :)
 
Mikeyjd said:
According to Dr. Jacob Wilson, cycling is significantly more muscle sparing than sprints due to the lack of eccentric muscle trauma. Both have the same metabolic benefits. If you get a chance listen to that interview on Muscle College Radio. It's a good one :)
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Nice! I'll try to give it a listen later. Thanks!
 
Although ill have to say, i thought misfit was, well, being a little misfit; however you have defended your statements with grace and intelligence. I think you knew what you were doing though.. :-)
 
sweatymoo said:
Although ill have to say, i thought misfit was, well, being a little misfit; however you have defended your statements with grace and intelligence. I think you knew what you were doing though.. :-)
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I think that I let my mind narrow a bit after my weight loss. I found what I thought worked for me and assumed that it works for everyone else as well. Also, I may not have been doing things the optimal way.

The only true way that I have found to figure out your body is trial and error. You can make assumptions based off of research on others, but I always find that experimentation on yourself is the best way ;)

I guess I see people railing against high fat diets all the time and it annoys me a bit, so when I see an article advocating throwing out egg yolks it makes me a little crazy, LOL.
 
Misfit28 said:
I think that I let my mind narrow a bit after my weight loss. I found what I thought worked for me and assumed that it works for everyone else as well. Also, I may not have been doing things the optimal way.

The only true way that I have found to figure out your body is trial and error. You can make assumptions based off of research on others, but I always find that experimentation on yourself is the best way ;)

I guess I see people railing against high fat diets all the time and it annoys me a bit, so when I see an article advocating throwing out egg yolks it makes me a little crazy, LOL.
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I eat probably 2 eggs a day on average and have never thrown out a yolk! :)
 
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