Aromasin dosage guidance

[BobDigital]

First time poster. I've been on TRT for about 3 years (started at 100mg per week with no AI and gradually fine-tuned things and increased to 220mg per week with 1.1mg amridex over the course of that time). Blood work all looked good, but I decided to switch to aromasin for the superior SHBG properties, lessened estrogen rebound, and decreased liver toxicity. When I switched to aromasin, I went from amridex being blended into the test by the pharmacy to oral aromasin. I had found that amridex was a little less effective orally and I needed 1.5mg to keep my estrogen under control, so I used what's said to be an equivalent dosage of aromasin (37.5mg).

I recently ran my first blast of 400 test / 125 deca (weekly) and 50 anavar (daily). At this test dosage, I was using that same 37.5mg of aromasin and my estradiol mid-blast was 25.1 (with the "normal range" being quantified as 8-35). The deca and anavar shouldn't be a factor since they don't aromatize.

Now I'm back to cruising at 240 test, no deca, no anavar... so I dropped my aromasin to 25mg weekly in an attempt to help improve my lipids and go easier on my liver... but my estradiol skyrocketed to 82.7.

So, I'm questioning whether it's an issue of dosage or lost efficacy of aromasin. Can anybody provide some guidance on a "typical" aromasin-to-testosterone ratio? I've always been under the impression that running the lowest dosage of AI while controlling estrogen is the proper protocol.

Thanks in advance!

 

[BBiceps]

How long did you blast for? Deca will definitely raise your E so I think that you E might still be high from your blast, I would keep your regular protocol and retest in another month.

 

[BobDigital]

How long did you blast for? Deca will definitely raise your E so I think that you E might still be high from your blast, I would keep your regular protocol and retest in another month.

It was a 60 day blast and my blood work was done after 8 weeks of cruising. Even with the long half-life of deca, I would have expected things to normalize by the 8 week mark.

 

[Smont]

Are you taking the ai all in 1 dose aloe splitting it up through the week?

There is no ai to testosterone ratio, not even close. Some guys need a ai on trt and other guys can use 1000mg of test with no ai.

Here's the real question, is your estrogen high and you're getting weird side effects,or do you just see that it's high on paper and you feel fine.

Cus if you feel fine then leave it alone.

I like to run my estrogen up to about 100 on most cycles, it makes me feel good, stronger and increases my sex drive. On cruise my estrogen is usually only in the high 30's

 

[BBiceps]

It was a 60 day blast and my blood work was done after 8 weeks of cruising. Even with the long half-life of deca, I would have expected things to normalize by the 8 week mark.

So the mid blast blood draw was after 30 days? That would explain why to your E was still low, Deca takes awhile to kick in, I don’t get any E sides from Deca until after 4-5 weeks. I would still keep your same protocol and retest, adjust from there.

 

[Smont]

So the mid blast blood draw was after 30 days? That would explain why to your E was still low, Deca takes awhile to kick in, I don’t get any E sides from Deca until after 4-5 weeks. I would still keep your same protocol and retest, adjust from there.

Ppl also forget there's a lag time on estrogen, you could finish a cycle with high estrogen and go back to cruise, get test and everything in check weeks before e2 goes back to normal and vice versa with low estrogen

 

[BBiceps]

Ppl also forget there's a lag time on estrogen, you could finish a cycle with high estrogen and go back to cruise, get test and everything in check weeks before e2 goes back to normal and vice versa with low estrogen

^This^

 

[Mikereyn513]

I agree with both the guys above( as usual when it comes to those 2 specifically) if your estro is high on paper but you feel good and don't aren't growing boobs your gtg. The only time you want to purposely tank it is for a bodybuilding show and even then they keep it low for the shortest amount of time as possible. You can't grow without estrogen

 

[Potbelly]

BobbyDigitaloa from the misc?

 

[BobDigital]

Are you taking the ai all in 1 dose aloe splitting it up through the week?

There is no ai to testosterone ratio, not even close. Some guys need a ai on trt and other guys can use 1000mg of test with no ai.

Here's the real question, is your estrogen high and you're getting weird side effects,or do you just see that it's high on paper and you feel fine.

Cus if you feel fine then leave it alone.

I like to run my estrogen up to about 100 on most cycles, it makes me feel good, stronger and increases my sex drive. On cruise my estrogen is usually only in the high 30's

I have 25mg pills and I was taking 12.5mg 3x per week. These pills are pretty tough to accurately quarter.

As for symptoms, I'll be honest... I felt like I noticed some puffiness/swelling in the little teat part of the nipple which has since resolved. I kept looking and asking myself if it was bigger or not. There was a small increase in nipple awareness/sensitivity, but it wasn't dramatic. I just don't know what to look for with respect to gyno and I didn't want to develop that condition.

I was actually thinking that maybe high prolactin was the cause of the potential small size increase, but blood work showed it's well within range.

 

[BobDigital]

^This^

This is actually a really good point. I dropped my AI dose as soon as I stopped my blast and perhaps I should have waited a few weeks (akin to taking an AI for 2 weeks prior to PCT for people who cycle off) until my elevated test levels come down.

 

[BobDigital]

So the mid blast blood draw was after 30 days? That would explain why to your E was still low, Deca takes awhile to kick in, I don’t get any E sides from Deca until after 4-5 weeks. I would still keep your same protocol and retest, adjust from there.

Sorry, a question on this: I was under the impression that deca (and anavar, for that matter) does not aromatize and is more of a prolactin concern than an estrogen concern. Is this incorrect?

 

[BobDigital]

BobbyDigitaloa from the misc?

Haha, I used to peruse that forum quite a bit, but not under that name. Bobby Digital is the "alter ego" of one of the Wu-Tang rappers, so it's probably a fairly common handle.

 

[BBiceps]

Sorry, a question on this: I was under the impression that deca (and anavar, for that matter) does not aromatize and is more of a prolactin concern than an estrogen concern. Is this incorrect?

Yes, very incorrect. Anavar is DHT and Deca is 19-Nor, they are not in the same steroid family and have different side effects. Anavar can not aromatize (no prolactin issues either for that matter) but Deca can both raise prolactin and estrogen.

 

[Smont]

Haha, I used to peruse that forum quite a bit, but not under that name. Bobby Digital is the "alter ego" of one of the Wu-Tang rappers, so it's probably a fairly common handle.

Bobby Bobby Bobby, Digi Digi Digi, stuck to ya ass like a Victoria secret wedgie.

 

[Smont]

Sorry, a question on this: I was under the impression that deca (and anavar, for that matter) does not aromatize and is more of a prolactin concern than an estrogen concern. Is this incorrect?

Deca seems to make your testosterone aromatize more. So while deca alone won't have much estrogen conversion, if you add deca to testosterone it seems to increase the overall amount of aromatization

 

[Smont]

So let's take a step back, tell me if I'm wrong.

Cycle is over, we're back to cruise. During the cycle you were not taking 37.5mg of exemestane but you were taking a total of 37.5 or 12.5mg 3 times a week.

And you dropped the dose of exemestane down after you went to cruise.

Now estrogen is elevated still and you had some itchy nips but that sensitivity is fading.



Sooooooo ........


My thoughts are that it was still elevated but has since started coming down. It eventually should come down back to baseline on its own.

If it was me and I still had symptoms I'd go back to 12.5mg 3 times a week or every other day till symptoms stopped.

If symptoms are already gone I'd just leave it alone

 

[BobDigital]

So let's take a step back, tell me if I'm wrong.

Cycle is over, we're back to cruise. During the cycle you were not taking 37.5mg of exemestane but you were taking a total of 37.5 or 12.5mg 3 times a week.

And you dropped the dose of exemestane down after you went to cruise.

Now estrogen is elevated still and you had some itchy nips but that sensitivity is fading.



Sooooooo ........


My thoughts are that it was still elevated but has since started coming down. It eventually should come down back to baseline on its own.

If it was me and I still had symptoms I'd go back to 12.5mg 3 times a week or every other day till symptoms stopped.

If symptoms are already gone I'd just leave it alone

Yes, that is a correct summary and I had the same thought with respect to restoring the higher AI dose until symptoms have fully subsided. My follow-on concern, which I'm guessing isn't possible to answer, is whether I did any gyno-type damage by unknowingly letting my estrogen stay elevated for several weeks.

 

[BobDigital]

Yes, very incorrect. Anavar is DHT and Deca is 19-Nor, they are not in the same steroid family and have different side effects. Anavar can not aromatize (no prolactin issues either for that matter) but Deca can both raise prolactin and estrogen.

Ah sorry, I didn't mean to imply similarity... just that neither could aromatize. It seems like that's true for anavar and, while deca won't aromatize like testosterone, there is some level of conversion. Correct?

 

[BBiceps]

Ah sorry, I didn't mean to imply similarity... just that neither could aromatize. It seems like that's true for anavar and, while deca won't aromatize like testosterone, there is some level of conversion. Correct?

Yes. Test + Deca will aromatize more than Test alone.

 

[Smont]

Yes, that is a correct summary and I had the same thought with respect to restoring the higher AI dose until symptoms have fully subsided. My follow-on concern, which I'm guessing isn't possible to answer, is whether I did any gyno-type damage by unknowingly letting my estrogen stay elevated for several weeks.

Gyno is obvious. If you have gyno forming there is a constant itch or burning or sensitive sensation the entire time it's growing and you would eventually feel a lump behind or around the nipples. It could be as small as a pea or as big as a frickin hotdog lol.

I have some minor gyno and any time it gets aggravated it's very obvious

 

[BobDigital]

Gyno is obvious. If you have gyno forming there is a constant itch or burning or sensitive sensation the entire time it's growing and you would eventually feel a lump behind or around the nipples. It could be as small as a pea or as big as a frickin hotdog lol.

I have some minor gyno and any time it gets aggravated it's very obvious

Ok, I think I'm good then because it was never something persistent or even definite. I'd described it as increased nipple awareness, haha.

Thanks for setting my mind at ease.

 

[celc5]

Gyno is obvious. If you have gyno forming there is a constant itch or burning or sensitive sensation the entire time it's growing and you would eventually feel a lump behind or around the nipples. It could be as small as a pea or as big as a frickin hotdog lol.

I have some minor gyno and any time it gets aggravated it's very obvious

When you bump gyno with DBs before a set of presses, it hurts. I wouldn't use an ai for puffiness, gotta feel that pea size lump as Smont described. When u have it or are prone, there's zero question. Lots of gyno reports on forums are imagination

 

[BobDigital]

When you bump gyno with DBs before a set of presses, it hurts. I wouldn't use an ai for puffiness, gotta feel that pea size lump as Smont described. When u have it or are prone, there's zero question. Lots of gyno reports on forums are imagination

Noted. As for not using an AI for puffiness but waiting to feel the lump... isn't it too late at that point?

 

[Smont]

You don't want to wait till there's a lump.

Puffy nips does not necessarily mean gyno, but if there's a itching or burning sensation then I would use a ai because you want to stop it. If your nips are itchy or burning then something's wrong.

Typically I want to lower my testosterone dose to a level where a ai is not needed, but that dose is different for everyone. And if I'm gonna run test higher and need a ai I go with exemestane or I try to balance **** out with masteron.

I'd rather do any of those things over waiting till there's already a lump.

 

[Smont]

Quick little recap for anyone getting high estrogen sides.

More frequent injection schedule
Lower your testosterone dose
Use masteron or primo along side (not on cruise)
Lower your body fat
Use a ai like exemestane

If the only side is itchy nips then a low dose nolvadex @10mg or raloxefine @25-30mg may also be a solution but just like I don't like ppl using a ai all the time, I don't like The idea of running a serm all the time either.

Cruising in 240 is a bit much for most guys too, I cruise on 150most the time and I know some pretty big dudes that don't go over 200 on cruise. 120-150 is plenty for most guys if your cruise is fairly short. 8-10 weeks.

Also another thing. If say your on 500 test, and you end the cycle and start pinning 200, your not actually on 200 or cruising, your still going to be on a cycle for another 6 weeks or so because that's how long it's going to take for your testosterone levels to get back down into the normal range.

If your on trt and you run cycles, end your cycle, then pin nothing for 3-4 weeks. At this point test will drop back into range and then pin your trt. This will also help estrogen come down faster.

There's lots of variables To why these things happen and there's lots of possible solutions

 

[Mikereyn513]

Damn I was going to cruise from Christmas till March 1st that's not long enough oh well I guess I'm going yo justify it by telling myself I have some catching up to do

 

[BobDigital]

At the risk of derailing my own thread...
I've got some questions about your comments.

Cruising in 240 is a bit much for most guys too, I cruise on 150most the time and I know some pretty big dudes that don't go over 200 on cruise. 120-150 is plenty for most guys if your cruise is fairly short. 8-10 weeks.

My cruise dose is something I arrived at after a few years. 220 was kind of the sweet spot for me feeling good and having blood work that was all in range. I then added low dose (120mg) deca to help with both recovery from a major injury (tendon tear suffered playing sports) via enhanced collagen synthesis and also to generally lubricate joints and alleviate some elbow tendinitis. To avoid the infamous "deca dick", I kicked up the cruise dose to 240. For the record, I am a lean (single digit body fat) 220 lbs at 6'3". I know that's not big in powerlifting circles, but wanted to give context.

I've always struggled a bit with the question of what a maximum cruise dose should be. I've heard a lot of people say, "No more than 200," without any scientific reasoning. I think the concerns would mainly be hematocrit levels and blood pressure, right? Are there other metrics I should be concerned about when assessing the health of a cruise dose?

Also another thing. If say your on 500 test, and you end the cycle and start pinning 200, your not actually on 200 or cruising, your still going to be on a cycle for another 6 weeks or so because that's how long it's going to take for your testosterone levels to get back down into the normal range.

One more point of context... I've only done one cycle. It was 400 test / 125 deca / 50 anavar. I'd like to do more (at higher test and deca dosages), but 2-3 per year maximum was my plan... so I wouldn't expect myself to be on-cycle any more frequently than that. I've got more questions about future cycles, but perhaps that calls for a new thread.

 

[Renew1]

Quick little recap for anyone getting high estrogen sides.

More frequent injection schedule
Lower your testosterone dose
Use masteron or primo along side (not on cruise)
Lower your body fat
Use a ai like exemestane

If the only side is itchy nips then a low dose nolvadex @10mg or raloxefine @25-30mg may also be a solution but just like I don't like ppl using a ai all the time, I don't like The idea of running a serm all the time either.

Cruising in 240 is a bit much for most guys too, I cruise on 150most the time and I know some pretty big dudes that don't go over 200 on cruise. 120-150 is plenty for most guys if your cruise is fairly short. 8-10 weeks.

Also another thing. If say your on 500 test, and you end the cycle and start pinning 200, your not actually on 200 or cruising, your still going to be on a cycle for another 6 weeks or so because that's how long it's going to take for your testosterone levels to get back down into the normal range.

If your on trt and you run cycles, end your cycle, then pin nothing for 3-4 weeks. At this point test will drop back into range and then pin your trt. This will also help estrogen come down faster.

There's lots of variables To why these things happen and there's lots of possible solutions

Good post. ^^^

 

[Smont]

At the risk of derailing my own thread...
I've got some questions about your comments.



My cruise dose is something I arrived at after a few years. 220 was kind of the sweet spot for me feeling good and having blood work that was all in range. I then added low dose (120mg) deca to help with both recovery from a major injury (tendon tear suffered playing sports) via enhanced collagen synthesis and also to generally lubricate joints and alleviate some elbow tendinitis. To avoid the infamous "deca dick", I kicked up the cruise dose to 240. For the record, I am a lean (single digit body fat) 220 lbs at 6'3". I know that's not big in powerlifting circles, but wanted to give context.

I've always struggled a bit with the question of what a maximum cruise dose should be. I've heard a lot of people say, "No more than 200," without any scientific reasoning. I think the concerns would mainly be hematocrit levels and blood pressure, right? Are there other metrics I should be concerned about when assessing the health of a cruise dose?



One more point of context... I've only done one cycle. It was 400 test / 125 deca / 50 anavar. I'd like to do more (at higher test and deca dosages), but 2-3 per year maximum was my plan... so I wouldn't expect myself to be on-cycle any more frequently than that. I've got more questions about future cycles, but perhaps that calls for a new thread.

"Most guys" was the key, I didn't say 240 was too much for you. I was making a general post about estrogen control. If 240 has you in range then it has you in range. Your testosterone level is more important than your testosterone dosage so 150 puts me in the 900s, 240 might put you in the 900s or similar, the test dose doesn't matter nearly as much as the testosterone number matters.

Cruising and trt are not the same thing (unless you cruise on your trt). I said big guys cruising on 200 to make a point that 200 was enough for some big guys to hold muscle mass. That comment has nothing to do with trt.

How big you are or how much muscle you have has nothing to do with how much testosterone keeps you in range, if I'm 150 lb right now and 150 mg keeps me in range and then I add 100 lb of muscle, 150 mg will still keep me in range. But 150 mg will probably not help me hold that extra muscle.

Also, body fat does normally play a role in estrogen conversion. But I wasn't saying it's the cause of your high estrogen, again, I was making a general post about estrogen and the possible causes and possible ways to correct it

None of that post you quoted was directed at you specifically, if it was I would have said it was.

Hope that clears everything up. I was just providing general information

 

[BobDigital]

"Most guys" was the key, I didn't say 240 was too much for you. I was making a general post about estrogen control. If 240 has you in range then it has you in range. Your testosterone level is more important than your testosterone dosage so 150 puts me in the 900s, 240 might put you in the 900s or similar, the test dose doesn't matter nearly as much as the testosterone number matters.

Cruising and trt are not the same thing (unless you cruise on your trt). I said big guys cruising on 200 to make a point that 200 was enough for some big guys to hold muscle mass. That comment has nothing to do with trt.

How big you are or how much muscle you have has nothing to do with how much testosterone keeps you in range, if I'm 150 lb right now and 150 mg keeps me in range and then I add 100 lb of muscle, 150 mg will still keep me in range. But 150 mg will probably not help me hold that extra muscle.

Also, body fat does normally play a role in estrogen conversion. But I wasn't saying it's the cause of your high estrogen, again, I was making a general post about estrogen and the possible causes and possible ways to correct it

None of that post you quoted was directed at you specifically, if it was I would have said it was.

Hope that clears everything up. I was just providing general information

Yes, I cruise on my TRT. And to be clear, I didn't take exception to any of your comments - I'm always just trying to learn and understand more. It is unfortunate that anabolics are so stigmatized because it makes it difficult to get good information except for places like this.

Thanks for all of your contributions so far.

 

[Smont]

Yes, I cruise on my TRT. And to be clear, I didn't take exception to any of your comments - I'm always just trying to learn and understand more. It is unfortunate that anabolics are so stigmatized because it makes it difficult to get good information except for places like this.

Thanks for all of your contributions so far.

My view on anabolics is there like anything else, you can use them responsibly or you can abuse them, using them responsibly doesn't necessarily make them safe but it makes them much less risky. And if you ask 10 different people you get 10 different answers that goes for how to use them how safer they and every other question you can imagine.

The only way to know how safely you are usage is is by getting blood work done and keeping track of how everything goes.

Some guys smoke a pack of cigarettes a day their whole life and live to be 95 and other guys never smoke at all and get lung cancer. Some guys have a drink every Friday night and end up with liver problems and other guys drink like a fish 7 days a week and nothing ever happens to them.

Steroids are the same, you might be able to use them safely your entire life or something may go wrong along the way it's impossible to know.

But one thing I can say for certain in my opinion, is that many of the things that we can do legally in this world are far more dangerous than using a little bit of testosterone