Are bro splits really that bad
- Thread starter Jsmith219
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runtyemonster
New member
Right? A bro spilt is a muscle group hit once a week. If your hitting muscle groups more than that, it's not really a bro split. And you can build muscle hitting each group once a week, especially if your a novice or geared lifter(massive volume though), but for your average trained individual, higher frequency is more optimal.
APC80
Active member
There's been studies carried out showing no difference between training a muscl once twice or three times a week. Do what you prefer, the more you put into your workouts is the difference in what results you get. I train every muscle group once a week, tried ppl splits 2x week several times thinking it would be better and got sub optimal results simply because I didn't enjoy it. Personally I like hitting a muscle group when I'm fresh.
bell1986
Well-known member
Bro split ie chest Tri.. Back Bi. Shoulders. Legs. Abs then 2 days rest? Like that every week? Ive personally tried that and like any training have gained but i now do.. Push Pull Legs abs Push Pull Legs rest and so on... Works so much better for me and ive put the most mass on with this. I need to increase my calories for this split as i take longer in each training sesh
APC80
Active member
It's funny how many people repeat this idea of more frequency being better for natural lifters despite there being no evidence for it. If anything more frequency should be better on gear as you can recover faster. Do what you prefer mate doesn't hurt switching it up I just switched to training 4 days a week using bookend workouts and loving it.
Smont
Legend
More frequent for a new lifter teaches them how to do the lifts properly faster then perform that lift only 1x per week, just like anything in life the more you practice something the better you get at it. That's pretty much a fact with anything in life. So let's think about this, who's going to make gains faster, a guy lifting weights correct or a guy who still doesn't know what he is doing. Now that being said if you already know what your doing it comes back down to what works for you. There is no best routine and never will be cus nothing works for everyone. And I kinda forgot where I was going with this so Ill stop talking now
APC80
Active member
Then there's the other side of the coin, doing the same lifts more frequently with bad form isn't good either. I don't think more training sessions will make anyone better unless they're under professional supervision. The only way to learn correct form for most lifters is to read books, watch YouTube videos and get advice from others in the gym. It takes time not more training sessions.
runtyemonster
New member
Think about it man, does it take a full week for your chest to recover? How about your quads? Don't you agree that if it only takes about 3 days for a muscle group to recover that it would be better to train said muscle group more frequently? How is going 7 days between training sessions of a particular muscle group optimal? Watch the Mike Isratel video on the myth of bro splits on YouTube. I believe he references some study's about how waiting to long will actually slow muscle growth as the muscles have recovered and are returning to baseline, or just above. It's a good video to watch regardless.
APC80
Active member
Invalid Link Removed
I prefer real science over some guys opinion on YouTube. I actually believe it comes down to the individual.
Research actually shows it can take 5-7 days for larger muscles to recover after a heavy session.
runtyemonster
New member
My sentiments exactly
THOR 70
Well-known member
I feel this will all boil down to individual need. Factors such as diet, environment, stressors, CNS recovery ability, hormone profile, muscle type, mental motivation etc. too many variables for one size fits all.
I like to switch it up from powerlifting to supersets. Sometimes 1x per week sometimes 2x. I like simple/intense workouts.
Currently doing:
Upper
ush/pull high reps (5x15)
Lower: push/pull high reps (5x15)
Rest
Upper: push/pull low reps (5x5)
Lower: push/pull (5x5)
Of course cardio mixed in there but I feel this gives me the ability to have 3 rest days and hit both muscle types and train for both Strength/hypertrophy. I focus on tempo as well. It's fun and keeps it interesting.
I like to switch it up from powerlifting to supersets. Sometimes 1x per week sometimes 2x. I like simple/intense workouts.
Currently doing:
Upper
ush/pull high reps (5x15)Lower: push/pull high reps (5x15)
Rest
Upper: push/pull low reps (5x5)
Lower: push/pull (5x5)
Of course cardio mixed in there but I feel this gives me the ability to have 3 rest days and hit both muscle types and train for both Strength/hypertrophy. I focus on tempo as well. It's fun and keeps it interesting.
APC80
Active member
I find I'm not recovered for the next workout when I train each muscle group more than once, even if it's only 2 exercises. Maybe I was going too hard in my workouts I dunno but it just doesn't agree with me. I like quick 40-50 minute sessions where I leave it all in the gym and get out, it just suits me personally. Plus I don't know how people do legs2x a week as well as cardio my knees couldn't take it.
Thing is one guy could be doing a terrible routine but loves it and another doing one he sees as a chore and can't get into but it's a great program. Imo the guy doing the ****ty one is gonna make better gains than the fella that isn't into what he's doing.
Thing is one guy could be doing a terrible routine but loves it and another doing one he sees as a chore and can't get into but it's a great program. Imo the guy doing the ****ty one is gonna make better gains than the fella that isn't into what he's doing.
runtyemonster
New member
I get you bro. And I agree, to an extent. It's like a diet. You could have the best meal plan in the world, but if you can't stick to it, it won't work. It also depends on your goals. Are you training for powerlifting? are you a bodybuilder? Strongman? For that, I would look to the athletes and what works, generally speaking. If your just working out to stay fit, do whatever you enjoy.
mrhankey87
Member
I'm actually going back to a bro split after doing PPL all last year. For me personally, training 5 days/week and hitting muscles twice a week was very VERY stressful and I was always in zombie mode outside of the gym.
I'm now doing 4 days/week:
Chest/Shoulders/Abs
Back/Biceps/Triceps/Rear Delts
Legs/Calves
Biceps/Triceps/Abs
I'm still hitting arms twice a week cause they're a bit behind the rest, but it's mainly a bro split. I recover better, I feel better in the gym, and gains are happening nonetheless. Just my 2c
I'm now doing 4 days/week:
Chest/Shoulders/Abs
Back/Biceps/Triceps/Rear Delts
Legs/Calves
Biceps/Triceps/Abs
I'm still hitting arms twice a week cause they're a bit behind the rest, but it's mainly a bro split. I recover better, I feel better in the gym, and gains are happening nonetheless. Just my 2c
runtyemonster
New member
Whatever works for you bud. I personally train 5 a week, 2 upper, 2 lower, 1 dead. I've always had decent recovery though.
APC80
Active member
Same here mate, I tried p/p/l/p/p/l/rest 6 days a week and i never felt 100% in or out of the gym. Didn't enjoy the repetitiveness of it either. You're a bit more limited on exercise selection with a ppl split compared to a bro split too.
EMPIREMIND
Well-known member
There is no way possible that training a muscle once or multiple times a week makes no difference. Anecdotally there have been too many examples of people increasing training frequency and experiencing new growth.
APC80
Active member
Show me proof. People aren't reliable when it comes to self reporting, plus most I speak to in the gym can't seem to tell the difference between muscle gain and fat gain. There's scientific evidence that a larger muscle can take 5-7 days to fully recover after a hard workout. Why I'm your mind would you think higher frequency is better? More training doesn't always equal more growth.
EMPIREMIND
Well-known member
Well quite simply some of the most reknown bodybuilding programs are low volume and high frequency. DC training, which hits every muscle group three times in a 12 day period. Or more recently fortitude Training which hits each muscle group 3-4 times a week. I'm not sure what kind of gym you work out in, but the guys I see that train effectively do not gain fat and mistake it for muscle. Now you didn't mention volume, because that is most definitely a determining factor in how often you can train again.
APC80
Active member
That's the thing if you train with more volume you're gonna take longer to recover. Atm I'm doing four days a week Monday chest/biceps/abs, Tuesday legs, thurs shoulders/traps/abs and fri back/triceps. I'm doing bookends where you go back to hit the heavy the compound movements with the same weight after your accessory exercises followed by 2 sets of 12-15 and trust me ya don't wanna be doing that **** twice a week. Strength gains so far have been great so far.
THOR 70
Well-known member
This whole statement depends on intensity. What if your training at a higher volume but lower weight/intensity? This would allow you to train multiple times a week.
APC80
Active member
I didn't say you couldn't train multiple times a week, of course ya can. I'm saying it's not the only way to train. I'm sure some get great results from high frequency I'm not arguing that.
Juicedeez utz
Well-known member
I do a bro split, 4 days a week. If I'm on cycle and really trying to hit it I'll do 2 a days. Currently I do quad/ham, chest/tri, rest, back/bi, shoulders/calfs, rest, rest. Muscle keeps coming, just gotta keep the intensity right.
THOR 70
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing. This made me realize my volume is way too high and doesn't allow for frequency. Gonna give this a shot!
APC80
Active member
Usual bioscience from Christian Thibaudeau. Funny thing is he always talks about natty lifters vs enhanced as if he's natural himself lol
scherbs
Member
Thib's use or non use of PED's doesn't affect whether or not his program is effective.
By your logic, we should all be shopping for sick, out of shape doctors to help us get healthy.
"What does a healthy doc know about being sick". . .
APC80
Active member
None of the stuff he ever says has any scientific merit, he's a first class bro scientist.
AntM1564
Legend
I have been following a PPL routine for a few years now. Prior to that, I always used a bro split with a ton of volume. It is still difficult to tell myself I do not need to do 20+ sets for legs in a single day when I have two leg days.
APC80
Active member
lol that's what got me when I changed to p/p/l then when I went back to once a week training I wasn't hitting the it hard enough in the gym. I find I pretty much have to stay away from training to complete failure on PPL 6 days a week whereas on a bro split the last set is always a ball buster, sometimes even the last 2 sets.
APC80
Active member
I actually think it really comes down to your personality, if you're a balls-to-the-wall leave everything in the gym sorta guy a bro split probably suits you better but if you're more laid back and don't push yourself as hard 2x or 3x a week would be better. Personally I struggle to recover with 2x week body part training.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
This is really it. Some people like going all out, others would rather do more work. Most people, regardless, do more work than they should - like Ant1564 said, it's hard mentally to back off from the volume. It's worse because everyone thinks volume is a measure of effort. It's the exact opposite. If you are training hard, you will be EXHAUSTED after 1-3 sets. I mean, I've had really focused times where intensity was all out and you can wipe yourself out in 10 minutes. Most people don't know what it's like to train that hard. If you are training that hard, anything you lift after 10 minutes is going to be more of a waste of energy than any kind of stimulus. At that point, you're just wasting effort and torturing yourself for no return.
The fact of the matter is, there are three factors - intensity, volume and frequency. If you are at 100% intensity then your volume and frequency have to be kept low. If you do a little more volume, you need to drop the intensity a little. It CAN be good to experiment with these levels - sometimes lower intensity with fairly low volume and relatively high frequency can be very good.
The process though is "Stimulate, Recover, Adapt". Since the goal is to improve/progress with every workout, you need to allow for recovery AND adaptation to occur before you hit it again. People underestimate recovery time to begin with - it can take a LONG time to recover, much longer than you realize. You could not feel pain and still take 3-4 days more to recover. And if you hit the gym at that point, you'll just repeat the workout you did before because you haven't allowed for time to adapt and build new muscle yet...so you just start all over.
Juicedeez utz
Well-known member
Let's put it like this, Dorian Yates did 4 days a week and 1 working set to failure for exercise, 3-4 exercise a body part and was out in 40-60 mins. He had arguably the best physique ever. I agree with HIT, intensity and concentrating on muscle/mind and contraction, keep the movements slow and controlled while going to absolute failure (can't even do eccentric movements) you won't want to train that muscle again for a week haha high volume is good for deloadif from this type of training to reduce the risk of injury every 6 weeks or so. It's TUT and load that induces hypertrophy not how many reps and sets you can bust
APC80
Active member
If heavy compound movements are the foundation of your training you only really need to hit a body part once a week, if you're ****in about with 3 sets of 12 and loads of curls, extensions etc you definitely need more frequency. I wanna be in and out of the gym in 45-60 minutes 3-4 exercises for a body part and I'm done.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
You hit a lot of "minor" points in your list that actually make a HUGE difference. As someone who read and liked Mentzer's work a lot - it took me years to realize that I was missing some of the point because I thought it was a minor part of the training. One is, absolute failure isn't JUST going until you can't lift it. There are three phases of a movement - lifting, static, lowering. Lowering is the strongest phase and when you hit failure on this phase (which requires a spotter for most exercises) - that is absolute failure. Try doing 5 sets like that and then tell me you need 20 sets to hit a bodypart effectively.
Second - slow and controlled. Mentzer had a cadence of 4/2/4 or something like that - and I always missed that. I probably saw it but ignored it because it seemed harder and I knew I would lift as much weight - but I also thought it was minor. Lifting in that fashion though, greatly reduces injuries, etc. and improves results.
I will say though - high intensity workouts are not the ONLY tool in the toolbox. You may not NEED to go to absolute failure to stimulate a response. Volume and frequency are also tools that can be used, and keeping the same principles in mind and modulating intensity can have some merits too.
HST, 5X5, 5/3/1 - these programs all modulate intensity, volume and frequency. 5X5, for instance, prescribes a volume and frequency - but the intensity will vary and is usually designed to be lower. You start off with a weight that 5X5 is easy, and then consistently add until suddenly you are doing 4X5 and then 1X3 on your last set. That is really the first time you are at failure - on that 1X3 set. Then you stick to it until 5X5 is achieved and slowly add again. You will only be hitting failure 1X per workout most times (or less), and it will only be positive failure, no negatives.
Or, I've been doing a routine I came up with that I can run 4-6 times a week, and I train the entire body every 2 workouts....
Workout A:
Squats
Bench Presses
Dumbbell Curls
Lying French Presses
Workout B
Deadlifts
Pull Ups
Bent-Over Rows
Military Presses
Each exercise is done for 2 sets. First set is with a weight that allows me to get 15 reps, second set I add weight and do 5 reps. When I can do 15/5 I increase weight. If 15 or 5 reps with a weight is easy, I stop anyway at the rep range. If I get 12 reps on the 15 rep set, that is it, I go to positive failure and that's it.
It's not the most intense thing I've ever done, but with relatively little volume and moderate intensity - I can hit a bodypart in 2-3 days and still see improvements.