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Anyone here have optimal (>5-700 ng/dl) test levels after multiple steroid cycles?

See steriod even testosterone effects other systems, such as adrenals thyriod etc and when pct we only look at fixing testosterone. Yet we all now how these other systems effect testosterone too (ie hypothyroid is way more likely to have low testosterone). I think we should try to optimize all these systems during cycle and pct. Try to take the load of the hypothalamus and pituitary. Also as I mentioned before I feel prolactin is also forgot during these times. Elevated prolactin(not even out of range necessarily) can significantly reduced testosterone.

I also think that anything that damages lyding cells(ie hcg) should be avoided. I not convinced these cells recover easily if at all.
 
I see you said your taking Brazil nuts I would stop those they have lots of toxins in them and may be some of the issue. Also we are looking at this from on testicular point of view. Think we all should be looking at optimising everything that hypothalamus has a role in(that we can). Use adrenal supports supps and thyriod, etc. Aiding it is overall work it has to do. I'll post more when I'm out of class

Thank you, yeah I was wondering if I wasn't getting too much selenium or what not from it also. I will stop, I was taking 2-3/day prior to the most recent labs. Interesting suggestion on adrenal support supps, I'm looking forward to hearing more. I currently take supplemental iodine because I mostly eat non-iodized salt but that's all as far as thyroid support. (Other than a multi)
 
See steriod even testosterone effects other systems, such as adrenals thyriod etc and when pct we only look at fixing testosterone. Yet we all now how these other systems effect testosterone too (ie hypothyroid is way more likely to have low testosterone). I think we should try to optimize all these systems during cycle and pct. Try to take the load of the hypothalamus and pituitary. Also as I mentioned before I feel prolactin is also forgot during these times. Elevated prolactin(not even out of range necessarily) can significantly reduced testosterone.

I also think that anything that damages lyding cells(ie hcg) should be avoided. I not convinced these cells recover easily if at all.

I'll mention my TSH was normal: 1.774 uIU/mL on labs 2 weeks ago. I requested T3 and Free T4 but she just did TSH this time.
 
Thank you, yeah I was wondering if I wasn't getting too much selenium or what not from it also. I will stop, I was taking 2-3/day prior to the most recent labs. Interesting suggestion on adrenal support supps, I'm looking forward to hearing more. I currently take supplemental iodine because I mostly eat non-iodized salt but that's all as far as thyroid support. (Other than a multi)


Invalid Link Removed
 
Thank you, yeah I was wondering if I wasn't getting too much selenium or what not from it also. I will stop, I was taking 2-3/day prior to the most recent labs. Interesting suggestion on adrenal support supps, I'm looking forward to hearing more. I currently take supplemental iodine because I mostly eat non-iodized salt but that's all as far as thyroid support. (Other than a multi)
I would look into topical iodine (non potassium iodine if you can find it) but it on places like stomach won't be seen as it will stain skin even after shower. Reason why topical is that body tends to only absorb what it needs.

As for adrenal supps the best was adrenosurge but that's gone for now(should be coming back but we don't knowo when) so try to find something that close to it's ingredients or make a yourself by buying individuals

Also pregnenolone is great I recommend that most people should take it
 
I see you said your taking Brazil nuts I would stop those they have lots of toxins in them and may be some of the issue. Also we are looking at this from on testicular point of view. Think we all should be looking at optimising everything that hypothalamus has a role in(that we can). Use adrenal supports supps and thyriod, etc. Aiding it is overall work it has to do. I'll post more when I'm out of class

Have you come across anything in any database that would point to evidence (information wise) of where the sheer environment from which we derive our existence (air) plays a large role in HPTA health?
 
See steriod even testosterone effects other systems, such as adrenals thyriod etc and when pct we only look at fixing testosterone. Yet we all now how these other systems effect testosterone too (ie hypothyroid is way more likely to have low testosterone). I think we should try to optimize all these systems during cycle and pct. Try to take the load of the hypothalamus and pituitary. Also as I mentioned before I feel prolactin is also forgot during these times. Elevated prolactin(not even out of range necessarily) can significantly reduced testosterone.

I also think that anything that damages lyding cells(ie hcg) should be avoided. I not convinced these cells recover easily if at all.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't OL KB and KG an attempt at doing this?
 
I would look into topical iodine (non potassium iodine if you can find it) but it on places like stomach won't be seen as it will stain skin even after shower. Reason why topical is that body tends to only absorb what it needs.

As for adrenal supps the best was adrenosurge but that's gone for now(should be coming back but we don't knowo when) so try to find something that close to it's ingredients or make a yourself by buying individuals

Also pregnenolone is great I recommend that most people should take it

Thanks I will look into pregnenolone.
 
Yeah I'm considering changing my upcoming cycle plans to 8wks of test and var with torem on cycle

Actually, that's what I'm gonna do, provided I can cycle after I get bloods done this week

I honestly think this is the very best cycle. And I keep my dose of Var at 20 mg -- first thing in the morning. Real, quality oxandrolone, doesn't need to be dosed at 80 mg/day. Throw some Proviron in the mix, at 25-50 mg/day, and that's an awesome cycle that's easy on the body and HPA/HPG-axis. With toremifene in the mix, most cycle side-effects simply don't happen. Lipids stay healthy (even on Var, which is notorious for crushing HDL), adrenal function is maintained and cortisol production stays up, thyroid function stays up, testes stay full, libido is good, and no need for any AI.

This is a cycle for people who aren't afraid of work. Push yourself hard in the gym and keep your nutrition on point, and you'll be astonished at the results.
 
I don't know what I think of torem on cycle. I do believe it can help maintain lh and fsh on cycle. But how much stress is that putting on they hypothalamus???

Um, it's *preventing* the androgen-induced hypothalamic dysfunction that running a cycle (or even TRT) causes. It's allowing the HPA/HPG-axes to function, even on cycle.

Testosterone dose-dependently inhibits cortisol/pregnenolone/DHEA production. This is bad. Cortisol is good. Forget all the BS bro-science you've heard. Cortisol is f'ing awesome. SERMs maintain adrenal hormone synthesis on-cycle because the adrenal glands have LH receptors that secrete cortisol/DHEA in response to stimulation by LH. LH also activates the P450scc enzyme, which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone -- this is *very important*. Shutting down LH production, even for a few weeks, causes devastating (and persistent) endrocrine pathology.There's a reason why, diurnally, cortisol, DHEA, LH, and T all peak at the same time, 8:00 AM.
 
See steriod even testosterone effects other systems, such as adrenals thyriod etc and when pct we only look at fixing testosterone. Yet we all now how these other systems effect testosterone too (ie hypothyroid is way more likely to have low testosterone). I think we should try to optimize all these systems during cycle and pct. Try to take the load of the hypothalamus and pituitary. Also as I mentioned before I feel prolactin is also forgot during these times. Elevated prolactin(not even out of range necessarily) can significantly reduced testosterone.

For the most part, SERMs (specifically toremifene), already do all of this.

Torem is the only SERM that doesn't elevate prolactin.
 
I honestly think this is the very best cycle. And I keep my dose of Var at 20 mg -- first thing in the morning. Real, quality oxandrolone, doesn't need to be dosed at 80 mg/day. Throw some Proviron in the mix, at 25-50 mg/day, and that's an awesome cycle that's easy on the body and HPA/HPG-axis. With toremifene in the mix, most cycle side-effects simply don't happen. Lipids stay healthy (even on Var, which is notorious for crushing HDL), adrenal function is maintained and cortisol production stays up, thyroid function stays up, testes stay full, libido is good, and no need for any AI.

This is a cycle for people who aren't afraid of work. Push yourself hard in the gym and keep your nutrition on point, and you'll be astonished at the results.

How's this look?

1-8 Test E 300mg wk
1-8 Anavar 20mg ed
1-8 Proviron 80mg ed
1-8 T3 50mcg
1-8 Toremifene (?) ed

Exemestane on hand
 
How's this look?

1-8 Test E 300mg wk
1-8 Anavar 20mg ed
1-8 Proviron 80mg ed
1-8 T3 50mcg
1-8 Toremifene (?) ed

Exemestane on hand

Pretty baller, except I think the dose of Proviron is too high... I believe that the sweet spot is the 25-50 mg/day range.

I dose torem at 60 mg/day, on cycle. I'm certain that is the maximally-effective dosage.

If you're lifting *hard*, high volume and heavy weights, 4-5 times per week, and your nutrition is on point, you will see some serious #gainz. With T3 in there and with adequate protein intake, you're primed for growth. T3 is very anabolic as long as there is net nitrogen retention.
 
Pretty baller, except I think the dose of Proviron is too high... I believe that the sweet spot is the 25-50 mg/day range.

I dose torem at 60 mg/day, on cycle. I'm certain that is the maximally-effective dosage.

Hell yeah. I misread your dosing suggestion for proviron.. I'll run it at 50 then.

I've got Test e on hand but wonder if Test prop might be more ideal? What do you think?
 
Hell yeah. I misread your dosing suggestion for proviron.. I'll run it at 50 then.

I've got Test e on hand but wonder if Test prop might be more ideal? What do you think?

Test is test. Too much is pondered about steady-state levels... The difference between testosterone levels at T=(1 week) and T=(1 month) is perhaps 300-400 ng/dl.

Also, 100 mg/week test + 20 mg/day Var over 8 weeks is the anabolic equivalent of 600 mg/week of test over 12 weeks. I'll dig up the study if you want to see...
 
Test is test. Too much is pondered about steady-state levels... The difference between testosterone levels at T=(1 week) and T=(1 month) is perhaps 300-400 ng/dl.

Also, 100 mg/week test + 20 mg/day Var over 8 weeks is the anabolic equivalent of 600 mg/week of test over 12 weeks. I'll dig up the study if you want to see...

If there's a study on that I would like to see it if you have it somewhat handy, I know you said you'd have to dig it up.
 
Test is test. Too much is pondered about steady-state levels... The difference between testosterone levels at T=(1 week) and T=(1 month) is perhaps 300-400 ng/dl.

Also, 100 mg/week test + 20 mg/day Var over 8 weeks is the anabolic equivalent of 600 mg/week of test over 12 weeks. I'll dig up the study if you want to see...

No sh1t? That's crazy.

I was just wondering with kick in time and all of that... would I want to start the var and priviron on wk 2 or 3 if using enthanate?
 
If there's a study on that I would like to see it if you have it somewhat handy, I know you said you'd have to dig it up.

JAMA. 1999 Apr 14;281(14):1282-90.

Resistance exercise and supraphysiologic androgen therapy in eugonadal men with HIV-related weight loss: a randomized controlled trial.

Abstract

CONTEXT:

Repletion of lean body mass (LBM) that patients lose in human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection has proved difficult. In healthy, HIV-seronegative men, synergy between progressive resistance exercise (PRE) and very high-dose testosterone therapy has been reported for gains in LBM and muscle strength.


OBJECTIVE:
To determine whether a moderately supraphysiologic androgen regimen, including an anabolic steroid, would improve LBM and strength gains of PRE in HIV-infected men with prior weight loss and whether protease inhibitor antiretroviral therapy prevents lean tissue anabolism.


DESIGN:
Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial; post hoc analysis for effect of HIV-protease inhibitor therapy conducted from January to October 1997.


SETTING:
Referral center in San Francisco, Calif.


PATIENTS:
Volunteer sample of 24 eugonadal men with HIV-associated weight loss (mean, 9% body weight loss), recruited from an AIDS clinic and by referral and by advertisement.


INTERVENTION:
For 8 weeks, all subjects received supervised PRE with physiologic intramuscular testosterone replacement (100 mg/wk) to suppress endogenous testosterone production. Randomization was between an anabolic steroid, oxandrolone, 20 mg/d, and placebo.


MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Lean body mass, nitrogen balance (10-day metabolic ward measurements), body weight, muscle strength, and androgen status.


RESULTS:

Twenty-two subjects completed the study (1 1 per group). Both groups showed significant nitrogen retention and increases in LBM, weight, and strength. The mean (SD) gains were significantly greater in the oxandrolone group than in the placebo group (5.6 [2.1] vs 3.8 [1.8] g of nitrogen per day [P=.05]; 6.9 [1.7] vs 3.8 [2.9] kg of LBM [P=.005]; greater strength gains for various upper and lower body muscle groups by maximum weight lifted [P = .02-.05] and dynamometry [P = .01 -.05]). The mean (SD) high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level declined 0.25 (0.14) mmol/L (9.8 [5.4] mg/dL) significantly in the oxandrolone group (P < .001 compared with placebo). Results were similar whether or not patients were taking protease inhibitors. One subject in the oxandrolone group discontinued the study because of elevated liver function test results.

CONCLUSIONS:
A moderately supraphysiologic androgen regimen that included an anabolic steroid, oxandrolone, substantially increased the lean tissue accrual and strength gains from PRE, compared with physiologic testosterone replacement alone, in eugonadal men with HIV-associated weight loss. Protease inhibitors did not prevent lean tissue anabolism.



These subjects, HIV-positive men, gained an average of 7 kg of muscle in 8 weeks, on doses of 100 mg/week test and 20 mg/day Var. Think about that...

I'm having trouble finding the 600 mg/week study.
 
So what is the consensus here about long term effects of AAS on the HPTA and T levels long term? After reading through the thread I'm a bit hesitant to start a cycle of Test and Halo/Msten. Are there any measures one can take while on to minimize the likelihood of permanent damage?
 
So what is the consensus here about long term effects of AAS on the HPTA and T levels long term? After reading through the thread I'm a bit hesitant to start a cycle of Test and Halo/Msten. Are there any measures one can take while on to minimize the likelihood of permanent damage?

Run a SERM on cycle, preferably toremifene. Avoid 19-nors. Avoid aromatizable compounds except Test. Ideally only run reasonable doses of test (300 mg/week). Ideally only run Anavar and Proviron as orals.

I think these all may have been mentioned once or twice...
 
Would nolva or clomid be more effective on cycle for this then? I assume clomid but I could be wrong

Nolva is toxic garbage that lowers IGF-1 levels. If you have to pick from these two, go with Clomid at 12.5-25 mg/day.

Torem is weaker than Clomid or Nolva at stimulating the HPG-axis, but it doesn't lower IGF-1 levels, protects against prostate cancer, isn't liver toxic, has no occular toxicity, isn't a carcinogen, and seems to offer some other benefits directly to the testes. 60 mg/day of torem is what I use on cycle and I maintain LH/FSH levels in the normal range.
 
Run a SERM on cycle, preferably toremifene. Avoid 19-nors. Avoid aromatizable compounds except Test. Ideally only run reasonable doses of test (300 mg/week). Ideally only run Anavar and Proviron as orals.

I think these all may have been mentioned once or twice...
Is 500 mg of test too much?
 
Is 500 mg of test too much?

Here's the deal:

Test is much weaker anabolically than Anavar, and is about 6 times as androgenic. It also aromatizes, where E2 shuts down the HPG-axis much more strongly than androgens. Anavar, at reasonable doses, is barely suppressive. Anavar is the only AAS shown to sharply increase the number of androgen receptors in muscle -- that's why Anavar gains stick even long after cycle. Anavar also stimulates collagen synthesis, which is why they give it to burn victims.

Based on my research, I believe that 300 mg/week is the maximum dose one should run based on risk vs benefit. The primary driver of muscle growth should be Anavar, which is also potently synergistic with testosterone. Anavar, from a risk vs benefit perspective, is the single best AAS.

Now if you want to shortcut things, become a mass monster in 12 weeks, then by all means, juice it up, brah. You're just going to wreck yourself long-term. What I'm offering is a way to cycle, with excellent gains, where side-effects and long-term risks are minimized.

If you want a great cycle, with great gains, then run 300 mg/week test, 20 to NO MORE THAN 80 mg of pharma-grade Anavar per day, 25-50 mg/day Proviron, and 60 mg/day toremifene -- run for 8 weeks only. Don't slack off in the gym, lift heavy and hard for at least 90 minutes 4-5 days per week, keep nutrition on point. You will have a great cycle, with great results, with little to no side-effects, no liver toxicity, no shrunken balls, no need for an AI, PCT will be a breeze (continue running 60 mg/day of torem for 4 weeks) and gains that stick.

Or, juice it up and see where that gets you...
 
Here's the deal:

Test is much weaker anabolically than Anavar, and is about 6 times as androgenic. It also aromatizes, where E2 shuts down the HPG-axis much more strongly than androgens. Anavar, at reasonable doses, is barely suppressive. Anavar is the only AAS shown to sharply increase the number of androgen receptors in muscle -- that's why Anavar gains stick even long after cycle. Anavar also stimulates collagen synthesis, which is why they give it to burn victims.

Based on my research, I believe that 300 mg/week is the maximum dose one should run based on risk vs benefit. The primary driver of muscle growth should be Anavar, which is also potently synergistic with testosterone. Anavar, from a risk vs benefit perspective, is the single best AAS.

Now if you want to shortcut things, become a mass monster in 12 weeks, then by all means, juice it up, brah. You're just going to wreck yourself long-term. What I'm offering is a way to cycle, with excellent gains, where side-effects and long-term risks are minimized.

If you want a great cycle, with great gains, then run 300 mg/week test, 20 to NO MORE THAN 80 mg of pharma-grade Anavar per day, 25-50 mg/day Proviron, and 60 mg/day toremifene -- run for 8 weeks only. Don't slack off in the gym, lift heavy and hard for at least 90 minutes 4-5 days per week, keep nutrition on point. You will have a great cycle, with great results, with little to no side-effects, no liver toxicity, no shrunken balls, no need for an AI, PCT will be a breeze (continue running 60 mg/day of torem for 4 weeks) and gains that stick.

Or, juice it up and see where that gets you...

Do you have any references to where it shows that torem on cycle helps greatly mitigate HPTA disruption? I only ask because some several years back Llewellyn and Arnold discussed this at length and found no definite answer to support a positive outlook.
EDIT: I should add to this that even several years ago, many did post blood-work showing Torem did HELP to mitigate certain issues during cycle. It was just to what level was the discussion.

Also, any references to anavar or proviron in regards to bloodwork immediately post cycle?
 
This isn't a study with references to AAS users however, I figured it does shed a little light on the OTHER benefits of Torem besides regulating HPTA post-cycle.

It does show how it helps with sperm motility as well as concentration. I once had the complete study that showed the actual numbers but have no idea where it is on what usb drive to date.



Fertil Steril. 2007 Oct;88(4):847-53. Epub 2007 Apr 6.

The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.

Farmakiotis D, Farmakis C, Rousso D, Kourtis A, Katsikis I, Panidis D.
SourceDivision of Endocrinology and Human Reproduction, Second Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki, Greece.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate whether toremifene, a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), has a beneficiary effect on all three main sperm parameters.

DESIGN: Prospective interventional clinical study.

SETTING: University hospital.

PATIENT(S): One-hundred subfertile men with idiopathic oligozospermia.

INTERVENTION(S): Toremifene (60 mg daily) was administered to all men for 3 months. At baseline and at the end of each month, serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, inhibin B, and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were measured. At baseline and at the end, semen analysis was performed and sperm concentration, spermatozoal motility and normal sperm forms were determined.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Gonadotropin, testosterone, inhibin-B levels, total sperm count, sperm morphology and motility.

RESULT(S): Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy.

CONCLUSION(S): Toremifene administration for a period of 3 months in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia is associated with significant improvements of sperm count, motility, and morphology, mediated by increased gonadotropin secretion and possibly a direct beneficial effect of toremifene on the testes. The above findings are also indicative of a better testicular exocrine (improved sperm parameters) response to treatment in men whose partners achieved pregnancy compared with those who did not. Further randomized, placebo-controlled trials should be conducted to determine whether this particular selective estrogen receptor modulator can be useful as an initial approach in men with oligozoospermia.
 
So what is the consensus here about long term effects of AAS on the HPTA and T levels long term? After reading through the thread I'm a bit hesitant to start a cycle of Test and Halo/Msten. Are there any measures one can take while on to minimize the likelihood of permanent damage?

I think the consensus from this thread is that multiple studies (as well as personal anecdotes, such as mine) indicate that there is a significant chance of having long term (and quite likely permanent - I mean for me it's been 12 years and I've run multiple cycles of clomid, along with LJ100, nettle, etc.,) HTPA suppression from moderate AAS use with standard PCT (clomid etc.).

It doesn't appear to happen to everyone, but from the studies, it happens to a very high proportion (example, 15/15 ex-AAS users with test levels in the lower 20% of normal or lower in the one study I posted).

Personally as mentioned, I would only use anavar and light test if I could do it again. Aggressive pre and post monitoring of blood levels after my first test/anavar cycle to see how my HPTA responds, avoid deca (or other 19-nor) period - there's no advantage to them given how suppressive they are, do proper PCT, and accept that you're making a choice that could (but aren't guaranteed) have significant long term consequences for you with respect to living with lower testosterone levels than you naturally should have.
 
Also, just to note, anavar was my favorite AAS along with test back in the day. IIRC anavar is synergistic with creatine as well, and it is great for strength gains.
 
Subbed for the awesome info on this particular page. Thank you. I always wondered if there was a better way to do the stereotypical bro cycles and shyt out there.
 
Wish I could add something besides negative news for ex-AAS users, but another study on this topic was posted last week on Ergo-log:

"Average steroids users will have messed up their hormone balance beyond recovery after a few years, endocrinologists at Copenhagen University Hospital discovered. The study raises questions about whether post cycling therapy [PCT] after a course of steroids has any point."

"The present study showed that a high proportion of former anabolic steroids abusers exhibited biochemical and functional anabolic androgenic steroid-induced hypogonadism several years after anabolic steroids cessation", the Danes summarised. "Current anabolic steroids abusers exhibited biochemical abnormalities suggestive of impaired spermatogenesis, which were associated with increasing accumulated duration of anabolic steroids abuse."

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Do you have any references to where it shows that torem on cycle helps greatly mitigate HPTA disruption? I only ask because some several years back Llewellyn and Arnold discussed this at length and found no definite answer to support a positive outlook.

EDIT: I should add to this that even several years ago, many did post blood-work showing Torem did HELP to mitigate certain issues during cycle. It was just to what level was the discussion.

What's the harm in giving it a try? Bodybuilders will eat all sorts of drugs that have never been tested in humans, but you tell them to try something that is basically harmless, but that happens to go against conventional "bro science" even though the pharmacologic basis is solid, and they completely flip out and tell you that you're totally wrong.

I know that Torem (and Nolva, and Clomid) works on cycle to maintain HPG-axis functionality and any or all of you are welcome to find out the way I did -- through experimentation. I'm done playing "dad"

Also, any references to anavar or proviron in regards to bloodwork immediately post cycle?

Nope, but everything that a study demonstrated as true, was already true before the study existed. Studies are nice, but in the absence, sometimes you just have to look at the underlying physiology and pharmacology and do your own N=1 study.
 
Now we need some studies on TRT... risks and health implications, etc.

Do we? Can we not just declare that Deca is pointless and be done?

Anavar does everything Deca does, better, safer, and without wrecking libido. Deca (and Winstrol) may also cause testicular cancer (J Cell Physiol. 2012 May;227(5):2079-88. doi: 10.1002/jcp.22936).

I'm going to just say it: Anyone who uses Deca now, knowing what we know about this toxic, garbage drug, is a moron.
 
Real Anavar is not often so easy to find. If you can get pharma grade stuff, then great. But "Anavar" from a UGL is often something else entirely (e.g. Dianabol). Something to keep in mind.
 
Real Anavar is not often so easy to find. If you can get pharma grade stuff, then great. But "Anavar" from a UGL is often something else entirely (e.g. Dianabol). Something to keep in mind.

There are a number of "UGLs" producing pharmaceutical-grade oxandrolone tablets. Anyone who spends a little bit of time researching this will determine which ones are legit. I know of at least three...
 
There are a number of "UGLs" producing pharmaceutical-grade oxandrolone tablets. Anyone who spends a little bit of time researching this will determine which ones are legit. I know of at least three...

I don't buy controlled substances from websites or people I don't know. If that's where this "research" would lead me, then I'm good, thanks.
 
I don't buy controlled substances from websites or people I don't know. If that's where this "research" would lead me, then I'm good, thanks.

Then don't say that real Anavar is hard to find. It's not, you just don't like your options.
 
I have not tried using a serm on cycle or seen anyone who has but if you do I recommend NOT running the same serm in PCT
 
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