Anxiety on anavar
- Thread starter Punkrocker
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KvanH
Well-known member
Every serm (selective estrogen receptor modulator) binds to estrogen receptors and thus preventing estrogen from binding to these receptors. The selectivity comes from the selective properties they have regarding which receptor sites in the body they have higher binding affinity. Like you said Nolva binds to ER on the hypotalamus/pituitary, but Clomid has even higher binding affinity there. And Nolva has higher binding affinity to the breast tissue. Raloxifene having the highest bindin affinity to the breast tissue thus making it best for gyno protection, but it's not as good for hpta restart. The serms sure won't occupy all the E receptors in the body and cause' you have the E in your body, it does have some of it's 'normal' effects.
And the zuclomifene in clomid acts much like E and can also add to the high E like symptoms (mood swings and such).
I feel like I might of heard before about some serm having a positive effect on lipids, mut definitely not all of them and I also might be mixing it up with some other positive character, just since you mentioned it. I want to say it would be Toremifene if any.
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Njs0416
New member
Yeah that part I should have worded more carefully only a handful of them have been shown to do that, and unfortunately most studies on serms are done on women with breast cancer, not in the male body. I thought low E2 was problematic in terms of mental health as opposed to high E2. More so for depression but in those prone to anxiety it can trigger it further.
KvanH
Well-known member
Based on anecdotal evidence I've read, low E and high E have very similar negative effects (like people mentioned in this thread also). The bloating for one being only a high E side effect. Many of the sides in low or high E are most likely a bit person dependant like is the amount of E we each feel good on and don't have said sides.
Njs0416
New member
Well thanks for that input, I didn’t know that either or could have the same effect. Really appreciate it.
To anyone else on this thread, I’d prefer to be corrected and have actual input than being told I’m giving bad advice. Comments like that are useless and we can all learn something new from each other here which is the point of these threads and why I decided to sing myself up. I have absolutely no problem being told I’m wrong if it’s followed up with valuable input that can educate me further.
Zvch
Member
You’re correct - Nolvadex and Clomid prevent estrogen from binding to receptors. Blocking receptors and lowering estrogen are two different things though. When a SERM is bound to those receptors, estrogen just has nowhere to bind to but that doesn’t mean that estrogen isn’t still circulating in the body and increasing at the same time. This is one of the reasons people get estrogen rebound after their PCT. To be 100% safe, ideally one would run a low dose of an AI the last week or so of their PCT and taper the dosage down until a week or two after their PCT.
I believe Nolvadex can lower estrogen levels but I’m not sure to what degree so I wouldn’t put all my faith in it to do that job. Clomid doesn’t lower estrogen levels.
ZOO
Well-known member
Hopefully man haha
Njs0416
New member
Yeah honestly after the way I’ve felt on tamoxifen, safe to say clomid is going to be my go to from now on. Thanks for clearing that up though man.
KvanH
Well-known member
Have you tried Clomid? It's more known to give sides to people. I personally feel super sh1tty on Tamox, but it's from UGL so there's that and I've never tried Clomid.
Njs0416
New member
I haven’t either. I’ve just heard guys that didn’t have luck with tamoxifen felt better on clomid and vice versa. Its very potent for sure. They have a ton of serm options. I know I’ve read a lot of guys get super depressed on clomid. Maybe I’ll give it a go and see if I tolerate it better.
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KvanH
Well-known member
Yeah, definitely give it a go, if Tamox is making you feel sh1tty. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I just grabbed on it, since it's too early and odd for you to say "safe to say clomid is going to be my go to". When you haven't even tried it yet = )
Btw, you should maybe edit that source away from your post. Sourcing is not allowed here. Board sponsors and legal stuff sources are okay to mention (like sarms, Andros). Serms might be ok or grey area I'm not sure, but no AAS sourcing and should stick to board sponsors with the Rx stuff also, I think..
Btw, you should maybe edit that source away from your post. Sourcing is not allowed here. Board sponsors and legal stuff sources are okay to mention (like sarms, Andros). Serms might be ok or grey area I'm not sure, but no AAS sourcing and should stick to board sponsors with the Rx stuff also, I think..
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Njs0416
New member
Just edited it! Thanks for that haha. I should have stuck with UGL hahaha I don’t even think its a bran that you can get out of my state I think it’s local. Either way appreciate that I prefer to be a rule follower haha.
Mathb33
Well-known member
Yeah it’s not hard to believe. What’s impossible though is for you to convince any knowledgeable guy that on the lapse of 2 weeks more than 1-2 lbs of lean tissue were created.
Njs0416
New member
I weight myself 3 times a week completely naked before breakfast after using the bathroom. I’m still 10 pounds heavier today than I was a month ago when I started all of this. It’s blatantly obvious the water and glycogen is back to normal, so I’m not sure where else that 10 pounds could be coming from other than lean tissue. My body fat percentage did not go up. I’ve never heard anyone claim you can’t gain more than a couple pounds of tissue a week using steroids depending on the compound especially if it’s the first time taking something, within the first few weeks of course. Also, im a lot stronger since I ended my cycle. The weights didn’t get heavier they got lighter, which I’m sure you’ll also say is impossible. Impossible is a iffy word to use my friend. Especially when genetic play a huge factor in individual responses...
Mathb33
Well-known member
I never said people said you couldn’t gain more than a couple lbs of tissue in a cycle I said you can’t gain more than a certain amount per certain time lapse. Even if you’re on test,tren,deca,superdrol and what not you’re not adding more than 1ish lbs of tissue a week. Anybody that’s been in this game for long and goes thru dexascan and everything know even if you’re on blast year round... gaining 10-15 lbs of tissue a year is amazing. The pros don’t gain more than that but you’ll gain 10 lbs in two weeks? I don’t care what you got to tell sadly, a human body is not capable of adding 8-10 lean tissue In 14 days, it is absolutely impossible. It would litterally put people at risk health wise if that much tissue could be added so quickly. You’re chatting a lot of none sense since your arrival here. If you want your claims to be taken seriously, take a dexa scan prior your 2 weeks of orals and take a dexa scan as soon as you’re done. Listen this isn’t up to debate, absolutely nobody in the bodybuilding world that’s knowledgeable, nobody, name them all... will tell you that you can gain 10 lbs of lean tissue in 2 weeks. This is a laughable debate. The only way this is possible is somebody that lost a considerable amount of muscle and goes back on cycle and gains back quickly his muscle due to muscle memory. New tissue don’t add that fast.
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Njs0416
New member
I never said you said that, once. Also, its kind of odd that in that response you keep saying it’s impossible just to end the post with “the only way it’s possible.” Highly contradicting...
not only that, I quite literally fit that scenario you just laid out for when it could be possible.... I injured myself a few years ago and lost a ton of lean mass and I’ve always been a pretty lean guy. Down 30 lbs in 3 years. The reason I jumped right into using this getting back into it was because the injury never fully healed and it made a huge difference. I can move normally again and my sciatic pain is gone. It’s probably better to ask more questions and get a better understanding of my circumstances instead of being condescending.
Njs0416
New member
Also if someone starts running gear for their first time and they only add 10-15 pounds of lean tissue in a year, they should reconsider their training and diet approach. The drugs aren’t everything. I know
And I do apologize as I should have mentioned all of that in regards to my history. Regardless of the circumstances I was still just shocked at my weight gain on such a low dose. That’s all man. Nothing laughable about it.
Whisky
Well-known member
ah yeah, you said it right at the end
the only way I’ve ever seen that makes this semi possible is muscle regain. I think I recall someone like tim ferriss proving some crazy gains through dexa but when looked into it, it became it was just regaining muscle recently lost. Even that I would question at the rate of 10lbs in 2 weeks though.
the body simply can not build 10lbs of lean contractile tissue in 2 weeks. Sadly, as we’d all be hench (er) mother fuckers if it could
Punkrocker
Well-known member
If you live in Massachusetts I suggest you go to Ken Dividio. He has a practice in north Andover. He know literally everything about anabolics. He's my doctor.
Njs0416
New member
Thanks a ton. It’s hard to find a doctor that doesn’t discriminate these days. My doctor doesn’t know jack ****. I’ve been meaning to find a new one. Great guy but it’s hard to have a conversation with him about this stuff without being told I’m an idiot, which is getting pretty old at this point. I still have a lot to learn. Grateful for your input!
Jinsun
Well-known member
Afaik, androgens have a substantial effect on SERT, dopamine, ... this is why they increase anxiety. They downregulate this system's. The other reason they increase anxiety is the upregulation of the adregenergic system.
estrogen ... that can play a role if it's to low but the above factors play a the major role.
CroLifter
Well-known member
From my experience estrogen is anti anxiety.
Try crashing your e2 with plenty of dht in your system. Fun times.
Brb getting up and getting off of public transportation for no reason. Just because you feel like you are about to die. Cant sit still.
celc5
Well-known member
Op this sounds like something else to me. At this point in the thread, I feel like this has happened to u with too many different compounds for this to be estrogen. Just my opinion.
Zvck suggested something about oral toxicity. This point resonated with me the most.
What if u took ur TRT and added a little test prop here and there? I wonder if anxiety would go up?
Zvck suggested something about oral toxicity. This point resonated with me the most.
What if u took ur TRT and added a little test prop here and there? I wonder if anxiety would go up?
Punkrocker
Well-known member
Actually my trt is 250mg test 200cyp 50prop
Jinsun
Well-known member
Androgens have a substantial effect on brain chemistry. This is often owerlooked. DHT's are generally the most anxiogenic. They are like a high THC weed strain that has almost zero CBD.
OP: it's not about orals, it's about chemistry. Try taking something else then a DHT. NPP for instance, dbol, tbol or just up the test. You wont respond to every class of androgens the same. And if you're messing with your hormones all the time, your brain chemistry is going to be totally unbalanced.
250mg's of test is a lot and has an impact on your head in all by it self. I don't know what your free androgen index is, but at 250 I presume it's way above natural.
You would think that androgens upregulate serotonin and dopamine, but alas they dont. And it's precisely this mechanism that leads to elevated aggression, assertiveness, lack of compassion, etc. Have you ever seen anybody being aggressive while on an MDMA roll? That's serotonin, that's pure love. What you get with dht's is an upregulation of noradrenaline and the cns. This is all so blatantly crude and oversimplified, but do your research and you'll see. I'm not an expert on the matter, so without going over studies again, I can't give you anything more specific.
Just trying to say that estrogen and liver toxicity is not the main culprit for emotional turmoil when on exogenous androgens.
Also, a lack of progesterone, dhea and other neurosteroids can lead to feeling anxious and having a low libido. You need hcg for that.
I know the broscience is all about estrogen and what not. But this is a rather complicated matter and androgens impact your whole bodies homeostasis.
So again, my advice; get hcg, remove dht's for progesterons or test derivates. Also, something that downregulates the noradrenergic system might help: trazadone, beta blockers, etc.
OP: it's not about orals, it's about chemistry. Try taking something else then a DHT. NPP for instance, dbol, tbol or just up the test. You wont respond to every class of androgens the same. And if you're messing with your hormones all the time, your brain chemistry is going to be totally unbalanced.
250mg's of test is a lot and has an impact on your head in all by it self. I don't know what your free androgen index is, but at 250 I presume it's way above natural.
You would think that androgens upregulate serotonin and dopamine, but alas they dont. And it's precisely this mechanism that leads to elevated aggression, assertiveness, lack of compassion, etc. Have you ever seen anybody being aggressive while on an MDMA roll? That's serotonin, that's pure love. What you get with dht's is an upregulation of noradrenaline and the cns. This is all so blatantly crude and oversimplified, but do your research and you'll see. I'm not an expert on the matter, so without going over studies again, I can't give you anything more specific.
Just trying to say that estrogen and liver toxicity is not the main culprit for emotional turmoil when on exogenous androgens.
Also, a lack of progesterone, dhea and other neurosteroids can lead to feeling anxious and having a low libido. You need hcg for that.
I know the broscience is all about estrogen and what not. But this is a rather complicated matter and androgens impact your whole bodies homeostasis.
So again, my advice; get hcg, remove dht's for progesterons or test derivates. Also, something that downregulates the noradrenergic system might help: trazadone, beta blockers, etc.
Uncle_E
Member
Very interesting info here, I’m seeing this first hand right now.
I dropped HCG 6 weeks ago to remind myself what it’s like not on it, and I think it will work and feel better after a little break.
I’m also 2 weeks into a lean bulking cycle - doubled my TRT dose to 400mg/week and running var at 50mg/day. I’m still new to anabolics so I’m taking a low and slow approach.
My libido is still there, but not raging uncontrollably like it usually is. On just TRT and HCG I’d need to get off twice a day at least. Throw in anything like dermacrine or epiandro and it would be three times a day everyday easily. Right now, I’m good with once a day. I’m a little surprised but reading this thread it’s making more sense.
I guess it’s ok not feeling like a sex addict for a few weeks. I am prone to anxiety too, but not having any issues with that at all right now.
I have a weekend away with the wife next weekend so I’m going to start running something else to kick the libido back into overdrive. I’ve never run Proviron before but have some on hand. I was thinking of trying that right now while I’m not on HCG to gauge the effects. Should I try the Proviron of just go with the HCG?
Jinsun
Well-known member
Yes, progesterone is a major factor in libido. Also dopamine. But if you'r progesterone is low, due to your gonadas being offline, your libido will go down. People also use progesterone cream or tablets for libido. It's quite common on trt.
Punkrocker
Well-known member
Taking notes!
Punkrocker
Well-known member
If I take some progesterone, what would be a safe dose??
CroLifter
Well-known member
Hcg would provide you with all that but since you said it doesnt do anything i dont think it would do much.
Also its pregnenolone as far as i am aware you would be takng. Some pregeennolone and dhea as a supplement to trt. But i think hcg is more bang for your buck. Dont need much. Low dose to keep boys active.
Punkrocker
Well-known member
Well I've used HCG plenty of times. Doesn't do anything for me except raise my hematocrit too high
Jinsun
Well-known member
No. It's progesterone. People take straight progesterone, for good libido amd general wellbeing. Preiod.
Pregnenolone is also used, but it's not what I was talking about.
CroLifter
Well-known member
Maybe its lack of progesterone that causes absent libido for aome of us on trt/cycle?
Or it coukd be the lh itself...dont know, but i get a sense of well-being from hcg.
Also @Punkrocker it depends on the hcg. I am 100% positive that the one we get from black market sucks, period. Its either stored improperly so it loses potency or who knows what.
I used the one from the pharmacy back in the day when i could get it, night and day difference, night and day...
Punkrocker
Well-known member
I get my HCG from a clinic bro
Jinsun
Well-known member
God damnt it Cro : D It's progesterone!!! Progesterone and dopamine are The hormones that UP regulate libido in the brain. Take some caber or LDOPA and combine it with progesterone and you'll be having a threesome with Amber and Candy as fast as you can spell "How much?".
That is, offcourse, if your other biomarkers are where they need to be (DHT, E2, ...). But if you look at me, I had high shbg (just measured it at my endo and it came at 72, which is 20 above range) and my libido was very high. E2 at 36, free T at 215 (which is very low and indicates low DHT). But my progesterone was 2x above range.
Jinsun
Well-known member
You need to include some other, khm, ... keywords to call that Dune worm to the surface : D
Whisky
Well-known member
I was thinking this earlier, no matter how hard I try I seem to always take threads off on random (normally sex based) tangents
Punkrocker
Well-known member
All my numbers are where they need to be bro. I've never tried progesterone. How much should I take damnit!! I'll go buy it today if you would just tell me what dose I need lol
CroLifter
Well-known member
Lol @Jinsun we need your help. My sex life is falling apart in my 20s and OP will have serious issies with the future wife unless we figure this out.
In my case its not psychogenic at all as i have 0 morning wood and no sensitivity. Dont know about OP.
I know, i know... "stop messing with your hormonnes" you say.
In my case its not psychogenic at all as i have 0 morning wood and no sensitivity. Dont know about OP.
I know, i know... "stop messing with your hormonnes" you say.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Can't give you any specific numbers, and I've yet to test it on my self + I'm not on trt. Just google trt + progesterone. Do some research. It might help and it might not help. Your messing with your hormones all the time, don't expect to be in good shape.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Lol @Jinsun we need your help. My sex life is falling apart in my 20s and OP will have serious issies with the future wife unless we figure this out.
In my case its not psychogenic at all as i have 0 morning wood and no sensitivity. Dont know about OP.
I know, i know... "stop messing with your hormonnes" you say.
Just get off of everything bro. EVERYTHING. Forget about it all and focus on your self.
Renew1
Legend
That's some pretty solid advice, IMO.
Punkrocker
Well-known member
I'm actually pretty fuckin horny right now but I know it's only the anavar and actually besides being horny I'm also anxious lol. I've got inhibit p which contains L-dopa so I'm thinking once I finish the anavar and my levels get back to baseline, I'll throw in the inhibit p and see how I feel for a week and if I feel nothing I'll throw in the progesterone or maybe both at once