anavar at a low dose worth it?

[FitModel]

Let's say hypothetically, 10 week cycle test e, also have dbol and anavar on hand, probably don't wanna use the dbol because of hair loss issues/fear. If it was used it would be first 4 weeks at 30mgs ed.

However the most optimal choice might be anavar, what would be the IDEAL dose to maximize gains and minimize sides. I was thinking 6 weeks at 50mgs ED (might still be to low of a dose, again though best bang with least amount of sides is the goal!)

Thanks for any input.

 

[Sweekaters]

I think anavar is a very valuable drug because it counteracts the drop in collagen synthesis that testosterone causes, and it greatly reduces the flow of amino acids out of muscle tissue, something no other steroid really does. You can reap those benefits even if you're only taking 10-20mg a day. Take your dose with a casein shake right before bed.

 

[Yaz]

IMHO doesn't worth it. It's an expensive drug and it's sides are way freater than it's gains.
When you use a UGL Anavar 70mg ED is the lowest dose, in comparison to a pharma grade which will be very effective at 40-50mg ED and ridiculously expensive.
Considering this and the low potency of this drug, you shouldn't use it liek you propose.

If i were you i would use Epistane instead which at 40-50mg ED has very very similar effects to UGL Anavar doses at 70mg ++ ED(many users i beliece can confirm this statement), plus it is way milder on the lipid profile and as mild as anavar when it comes to liver toxicity. On top of that it will give you some interesting very lean gains plus a considerate amount of strenth and it is way cheaper.

IMHO --> Epistane >>> Anavar

 

[DetroitHammer]

I have Anavar, IM, and find it almost worthless. For what you want, I would suggest Mast at 400mgs per week. Besides acting as an AI, it will help your cholesterol and give you lean gains.

 

[monsterbox]

IMHO doesn't worth it. It's an expensive drug and it's sides are way freater than it's gains.
When you use a UGL Anavar 70mg ED is the lowest dose, in comparison to a pharma grade which will be very effective at 40-50mg ED and ridiculously expensive.
Considering this and the low potency of this drug, you shouldn't use it liek you propose.

If i were you i would use Epistane instead which at 40-50mg ED has very very similar effects to UGL Anavar doses at 70mg ++ ED(many users i beliece can confirm this statement), plus it is way milder on the lipid profile and as mild as anavar when it comes to liver toxicity. On top of that it will give you some interesting very lean gains plus a considerate amount of strenth and it is way cheaper.

IMHO --> Epistane >>> Anavar

I have always found epi to be jaw-droppingly effective for me...its way stronger mg/mg than anavar, and you are right, is exhibits similar effects. In fact I think epi may bind stronger to the AR. I find 50-60mg epi puts my blood pressure on the brink of disaster, but the pumps/strength are always insane.

The only issues i'm finding at the high doses are an insensitivity during sex....I think epi exhibits a prolactin response much like 19nors somehow.....


And, Im not inclined to believe that its safer on the liver and cholestrol...where did you get this info?



I just finished up 80mg var on top of 700mg/test and 500mg/masteron....I notice the var but not as much as I would have figured at 80mg. Var is also in the 17b position and metabolised primarily in the kidneys....epi is a 17aa....so I dont see why it would theoretically be as mild on the liver?

Var has its place because if dosed high enough it can compete with other 'roids, but have a very safe profile. Epi doesn't have any clinical research and I think its mainly claims that the liver enzymes are low etc...lack of clinical trials scare me and Im not comfortable running 8 weeks of epi like I did with var. However, I can tell you, 8 weeks of epi at 60mg/day and I would be twice the size of 8 weeks with var.

 

[monsterbox]

I have Anavar, IM, and find it almost worthless. For what you want, I would suggest Mast at 400mgs per week. Besides acting as an AI, it will help your cholesterol and give you lean gains.

I will definitely agree with the masteron, its magic I have a nutso idea brewing in my head, i'm thinking about running 1000mg/wk of masteron just to see what happens.

 

[Yaz]

I have always found epi to be jaw-droppingly effective for me...its way stronger mg/mg than anavar, and you are right, is exhibits similar effects. In fact I think epi may bind stronger to the AR. I find 50-60mg epi puts my blood pressure on the brink of disaster, but the pumps/strength are always insane.

The only issues i'm finding at the high doses are an insensitivity during sex....I think epi exhibits a prolactin response much like 19nors somehow.....


And, Im not inclined to believe that its safer on the liver and cholestrol...where did you get this info?



I just finished up 80mg var on top of 700mg/test and 500mg/masteron....I notice the var but not as much as I would have figured at 80mg. Var is also in the 17b position and metabolised primarily in the kidneys....epi is a 17aa....so I dont see why it would theoretically be as mild on the liver?

Var has its place because if dosed high enough it can compete with other 'roids, but have a very safe profile. Epi doesn't have any clinical research and I think its mainly claims that the liver enzymes are low etc...lack of clinical trials scare me and Im not comfortable running 8 weeks of epi like I did with var. However, I can tell you, 8 weeks of epi at 60mg/day and I would be twice the size of 8 weeks with var.

- I've never heard about any progestational activity from Epistane use plus i checked some bibliography and still did not find anything.
- Most of the info is experience based not particularly mine per se.
- I've seen Bloodwork from people running Epistane for 6-8 weeks and it was a little bit above the normal liver values but nothing scary even for a 17aa steroid, the same with Anavar. But i have seen bloodwork from Anavar that even with low doses it destroys the lipid profile way greater than Epi.
- I believe on some forums should be some bloodwork posted by members about this subject.

Again i don't have any studies on this just some feedback from experience.

 

[FitModel]

Thanks for the info. I will never use epi again (havok) is what I used, due to the insane hairloss I suffered. Only thing I've used that made my hair fall out like that!

 

[jaydollars]

- I've never heard about any progestational activity from Epistane use plus i checked some bibliography and still did not find anything.
- Most of the info is experience based not particularly mine per se.
- I've seen Bloodwork from people running Epistane for 6-8 weeks and it was a little bit above the normal liver values but nothing scary even for a 17aa steroid, the same with Anavar. But i have seen bloodwork from Anavar that even with low doses it destroys the lipid profile way greater than Epi.
- I believe on some forums should be some bloodwork posted by members about this subject.

Again i don't have any studies on this just some feedback from experience.

Same here, seen epi blood work and not bad, but actually I have never seen anavar cycle with blood work that did not destroy lipids

 

[monsterbox]

you guys need to consider that epi is usually run only 4-5 weeks, where as var is generally taken much longer.

 

[Yaz]

you guys need to consider that epi is usually run only 4-5 weeks, where as var is generally taken much longer.

The fact that with the PHs/DS fashion appeared some toxic drugs like SD, Pheraplex and some more toxic ones like M1T etc the companies suggest being run for 4 weeks without having any health issues (just in case) and that trend stayed for most oral legal drugs no matter the degree of liver toxicity no matter the existence or not of 17aa alkylation. I've seen people running Epistane for 6-8 weeks and liver enzymes were slightly elabated considering it's an 17aa steroid.
So considering this is a guideline, doesn't mean that all 17aa have the same degree of liver/lipid toxicity and should me limited strictly to 4 weeks of use.

And FYI the fact that Anavar is usually used for longer periods of time doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. If you feel you need actual proof about it's lipid toxicity(which is more serious than liver toxicity) i can find some studies about it.

 

[monsterbox]

The fact that with the PHs/DS fashion appeared some toxic drugs like SD, Pheraplex and some more toxic ones like M1T etc the companies suggest being run for 4 weeks without having any health issues (just in case) and that trend stayed for most oral legal drugs no matter the degree of liver toxicity no matter the existence or not of 17aa alkylation. I've seen people running Epistane for 6-8 weeks and liver enzymes were slightly elabated considering it's an 17aa steroid.
So considering this is a guideline, doesn't mean that all 17aa have the same degree of liver/lipid toxicity and should me limited strictly to 4 weeks of use.

And FYI the fact that Anavar is usually used for longer periods of time doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. If you feel you need actual proof about it's lipid toxicity(which is more serious than liver toxicity) i can find some studies about it.

good points here, if havoc truly is safer, it really is a much cheaper and almost as effective alternative. I dont feel its quite as dry or clean...theres more blood pressure with havoc, a tad more bloat, but the muscle mass gained is alot greater. Again, this is all my experiences. I just finished var 8 weeks at 80mg and it felt like 5 weeks at 40mg of havoc.

I guess my next cycle will havoc 40mg havoc/40mg var.

 

[Yaz]

good points here, if havoc truly is safer, it really is a much cheaper and almost as effective alternative. I dont feel its quite as dry or clean...theres more blood pressure with havoc, a tad more bloat, but the muscle mass gained is alot greater. Again, this is all my experiences. I just finished var 8 weeks at 80mg and it felt like 5 weeks at 40mg of havoc.

I guess my next cycle will havoc 40mg havoc/40mg var.

I'm glad we agree.

You were experiencing bloating & higher BP from Epistane use ? Not that i don't believe you but it's usually the opposite thing lean hard gains. I believe your diet maybe contributed to this fact.

Honestly don't see any reason for running Anavar & Epistane together. Run Epistane only(meaning without Anavar) at 40-60mg and you'll be more than pleased in my opinion.

 

[monsterbox]

I'm glad we agree.

You were experiencing bloating & higher BP from Epistane use ? Not that i don't believe you but it's usually the opposite thing lean hard gains. I believe your diet maybe contributed to this fact.

Honestly don't see any reason for running Anavar & Epistane together. Run Epistane only(meaning without Anavar) at 40-60mg and you'll be more than pleased in my opinion.

I run my orals with a testosterone base.

In the past I had no bloat and actually such excessive dryness that my joints fell apart, this was when i ran oral only cycles like an idiot.

With a t base, On havoc, i get so bloated I look like i'm on DBOL and my strength/mass goes through the roof.

This tells me that its NOT anti-estrogenic, its simply non-aromatizing. I think what happens is havoc severely suppresses SHBG causing a huge increase in free-test which may be the bloating. But I still believe over 30mg/day..havoc has some sort of aromatizing property.

You do know that if havoc is heated, it breaks down into phera-plex...Dimethyltestosterone...the epithio collapses because its stablized by sulphur or something like that. I remember reading a thread on patrick arnold's lab test...he heated epi turned into pplex. And as we know, pplex is wet. Apparanetly if it sits long enough, exposed to oxygen, it will start turning into a wet compound....somewhat PPlex/havoc.

I dont know if i believe the above 100% but all I can tell you is havoc is not as dry as people think. I'v ran up to 60mg and its NOT dry up there at all.

Var on the other hand is extremely tight and dry...no blood pressure increases nothing. Same diet. With twice the testosterone base.

 

[Evil]

The anavar is much safer than any prohormone because it has many studies behind her, and also is used by doctors for various conditions that include fatigue, malnutrition, underweight, etc.. In addition to being used a lot to restore the muscles in case of burns. So it's normal that it is considered safer as it has doctors at his back, and thanks to the latter can also be used for a long time. Unfortunately the prohormones were not clinical trials and then for fear that they might be involved in some kind of side effect you try to use it for a few weeks.

 

[Yaz]

I run my orals with a testosterone base.

In the past I had no bloat and actually such excessive dryness that my joints fell apart, this was when i ran oral only cycles like an idiot.

With a t base, On havoc, i get so bloated I look like i'm on DBOL and my strength/mass goes through the roof.

This tells me that its NOT anti-estrogenic, its simply non-aromatizing. I think what happens is havoc severely suppresses SHBG causing a huge increase in free-test which may be the bloating. But I still believe over 30mg/day..havoc has some sort of aromatizing property.

You do know that if havoc is heated, it breaks down into phera-plex...Dimethyltestosterone...the epithio collapses because its stablized by sulphur or something like that. I remember reading a thread on patrick arnold's lab test...he heated epi turned into pplex. And as we know, pplex is wet. Apparanetly if it sits long enough, exposed to oxygen, it will start turning into a wet compound....somewhat PPlex/havoc.

I dont know if i believe the above 100% but all I can tell you is havoc is not as dry as people think. I'v ran up to 60mg and its NOT dry up there at all.

Var on the other hand is extremely tight and dry...no blood pressure increases nothing. Same diet. With twice the testosterone base.

Did you run an AI along with the Test/Epistane cycle ? And was it enough - was your Test dose high ? Excessive carb intake ? There are many variables as you can see ..

- Basically it seems to have some slighy anti-e properties but not AI(which is capable for obvious reason within a cycle to limit the bloating ).

- About the SHGB thing never heard of it, did you have something for me to read on or is this some speculation ? Interesting either way ....

- I know that even it's an active steroids some very small amount of it seems to convert to DMT but not with heat - i don't have any knowledge about this variable. Any link on this fact ?

- If you ever consider running a Test/Epistane cycle(at 40-60mg dose range) i would like to see it in a log.

The anavar is much safer than any prohormone because it has many studies behind her, and also is used by doctors for various conditions that include fatigue, malnutrition, underweight, etc.. In addition to being used a lot to restore the muscles in case of burns. So it's normal that it is considered safer as it has doctors at his back, and thanks to the latter can also be used for a long time. Unfortunately the prohormones were not clinical trials and then for fear that they might be involved in some kind of side effect you try to use it for a few weeks.

Not even close i believe, it's one of the most toxic drugs when it comes to lipids. I could demonstrate this with some studies if you want.

 

[jackedandtan]

Let's say hypothetically, 10 week cycle test e, also have dbol and anavar on hand, probably don't wanna use the dbol because of hair loss issues/fear. If it was used it would be first 4 weeks at 30mgs ed.

However the most optimal choice might be anavar, what would be the IDEAL dose to maximize gains and minimize sides. I was thinking 6 weeks at 50mgs ED (might still be to low of a dose, again though best bang with least amount of sides is the goal!)

Thanks for any input.

hey bro....i just started my 1st run with var...im gonna run it for 8 weeks at 50mg a day my test base is sust @ 750 ew...

ill let u know how it goes....im a blaster and cruiser and just changed compounds to change things up...i was running
test e @ 800mg ew
nnp/mast 100mg each eod
and i always have TNE on hand for pre workout when i feel like adding more test...if after 3-4 weeks i dont notice much ill add in mast p @ 150 eod.

 

[monsterbox]

Did you run an AI along with the Test/Epistane cycle ? And was it enough - was your Test dose high ? Excessive carb intake ? There are many variables as you can see ..

- Basically it seems to have some slighy anti-e properties but not AI(which is capable for obvious reason within a cycle to limit the bloating ).

- About the SHGB thing never heard of it, did you have something for me to read on or is this some speculation ? Interesting either way ....

- I know that even it's an active steroids some very small amount of it seems to convert to DMT but not with heat - i don't have any knowledge about this variable. Any link on this fact ?

- If you ever consider running a Test/Epistane cycle(at 40-60mg dose range) i would like to see it in a log.





Not even close i believe, it's one of the most toxic drugs when it comes to lipids. I could demonstrate this with some studies if you want.

Orals effect SHBG and Cholestrol severely because both are synthesized by the liver and having a steroid pass through the liver multiple times "tricks" the liver into not producing correct lipid profile and SHBG. Almost all non-aromatizing orals, and some injectables (primo/masteron) cause a drop in SHBG...sex hormone binding globulin. A very highly regarded, secondary reason to include var or winstrol in a test cycle because these drugs directly lower SHBG production resulting in much much more free-testosterone.

I used arimidex appropriate to my test dosage on cycle. However, when the havoc is added, I must increase my dosage of arimidex. This did not happen with anavar.

I have run havoc twice with a testosterone base now, and I'v experienced this both times. Like I said, alone, havoc causes dry joints and low estrogen...but this tells me coupled with testosterone is has very strong lowering affect on SHBG. In fact, by blood tests showed an SHBG of 9.

Invalid Link Removed


as far as the pheraplex issue...patrick arnold published it in a magazine...here is a link to a thread discussing the controversy.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/85390-epistane-phera-plex.html


Additionally, alot of people have complained of lactation post epistane usage. So, I personally believe there might be a bit of upregulation occuring to the progesterone receptors, similar to the same way nolvadex/tamoxifene can cause this issue...hence the reason nolvadex is never recommened against nandrolone gyno.

I myself have a slight gyno lump under my right nipple i developed after my FIRST epistane solo run, in which i used nolvadex as my pct. I had severe sex drive loss the entire PCT which I attribute to unexplainable prolactin levels rather than low-t, as my strength was very high during pct, and my breast tissue should have been blocked.


So, in the end, anavar is clearly predictable, has hundreds of studies, and has been PROVEN to increase collegan synthesis which is wonderful benefit. You can lift hard and heavy and burn fat without worrying about tendon issues as much on anavar. Epistane/havoc may have these properties but its just not known/studied. Havoc/epi is a great choice, but I wouldn't necessarily justify it as a superior compound to anavar.

I remember seeing 2 people on this board with high liver enzymes. In fact one guy used havoc for 5 months and had cholestasis, and sued RPN which is why RPN discontinued the product.

Anavar is used year round at <20mg in aid/cancer/burn victims because its safety.


Finally, My reasoning to using BOTH compounds is because apparently, it is suggested that havoc has a very high affinity for the AR, and binds very strongly, almost like trenbolone. Which should result in actual muscle mass gains moreso than anavar which is more of a type II activity drug. Stacked together would yield Type 1 growth and Type 2 support.

 

[Yaz]

Orals effect SHBG and Cholestrol severely because both are synthesized by the liver and having a steroid pass through the liver multiple times "tricks" the liver into not producing correct lipid profile and SHBG. Almost all non-aromatizing orals, and some injectables (primo/masteron) cause a drop in SHBG...sex hormone binding globulin. A very highly regarded, secondary reason to include var or winstrol in a test cycle because these drugs directly lower SHBG production resulting in much much more free-testosterone.

I used arimidex appropriate to my test dosage on cycle. However, when the havoc is added, I must increase my dosage of arimidex. This did not happen with anavar.

I have run havoc twice with a testosterone base now, and I'v experienced this both times. Like I said, alone, havoc causes dry joints and low estrogen...but this tells me coupled with testosterone is has very strong lowering affect on SHBG. In fact, by blood tests showed an SHBG of 9.

Invalid Link Removed


as far as the pheraplex issue...patrick arnold published it in a magazine...here is a link to a thread discussing the controversy.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/85390-epistane-phera-plex.html


Additionally, alot of people have complained of lactation post epistane usage. So, I personally believe there might be a bit of upregulation occuring to the progesterone receptors, similar to the same way nolvadex/tamoxifene can cause this issue...hence the reason nolvadex is never recommened against nandrolone gyno.

I myself have a slight gyno lump under my right nipple i developed after my FIRST epistane solo run, in which i used nolvadex as my pct. I had severe sex drive loss the entire PCT which I attribute to unexplainable prolactin levels rather than low-t, as my strength was very high during pct, and my breast tissue should have been blocked.


So, in the end, anavar is clearly predictable, has hundreds of studies, and has been PROVEN to increase collegan synthesis which is wonderful benefit. You can lift hard and heavy and burn fat without worrying about tendon issues as much on anavar. Epistane/havoc may have these properties but its just not known/studied. Havoc/epi is a great choice, but I wouldn't necessarily justify it as a superior compound to anavar.

I remember seeing 2 people on this board with high liver enzymes. In fact one guy used havoc for 5 months and had cholestasis, and sued RPN which is why RPN discontinued the product.

Anavar is used year round at <20mg in aid/cancer/burn victims because its safety.


Finally, My reasoning to using BOTH compounds is because apparently, it is suggested that havoc has a very high affinity for the AR, and binds very strongly, almost like trenbolone. Which should result in actual muscle mass gains moreso than anavar which is more of a type II activity drug. Stacked together would yield Type 1 growth and Type 2 support.

- I'm sorry i did not clarify something, i know what SHBG is and what are the effects of orals on it - i never heard anything specific with Havoc about increasing SHBG more than other orals. That's what i was refering to.

- Both Winstrol and Anavar are very toxic ... effects:sides ratio is like 3:1 at least, so if you want to use them for the lowering of SHBG simply doesn't worth it - any sane AAS user will confirm this. Instead you can use for the exact same thing Proviron which has no sides at all, it's very cheap in general and dirty cheap in comparison to Anavar.

- Strange thing about the Arimidex increase while on Epi.

- The progesterone thing about Epi, i think i may have read something in some board.

- It's pretty obvious that running any kind of 17aa for 5 months won't do you any good.

- The fact is that most of these issues seem to have occured from time to time but in general - stating this from many many people's experiences - are considered the exceptions of the rule. Most people do not seem to have these any kind of the issues stated. Of course i cannot back this up with some study because there seem to be non existant but i can back up the facts about Anavar's severe lipid toxicity which have been confirmed through most of the blood work results from people who use it.

- Thank for the links by the way, really appreciate this and i will defiantely take a look on them !

 

[monsterbox]

- I'm sorry i did not clarify something, i know what SHBG is and what are the effects of orals on it - i never heard anything specific with Havoc about increasing SHBG more than other orals. That's what i was refering to.

- Both Winstrol and Anavar are very toxic ... effects:sides ratio is like 3:1 at least, so if you want to use them for the lowering of SHBG simply doesn't worth it - any sane AAS user will confirm this. Instead you can use for the exact same thing Proviron which has no sides at all, it's very cheap in general and dirty cheap in comparison to Anavar.

- Strange thing about the Arimidex increase while on Epi.

- The progesterone thing about Epi, i think i may have read something in some board.

- It's pretty obvious that running any kind of 17aa for 5 months won't do you any good.

- The fact is that most of these issues seem to have occured from time to time but in general - stating this from many many people's experiences - are considered the exceptions of the rule. Most people do not seem to have these any kind of the issues stated. Of course i cannot back this up with some study because there seem to be non existant but i can back up the facts about Anavar's severe lipid toxicity which have been confirmed through most of the blood work results from people who use it.

- Thank for the links by the way, really appreciate this and i will defiantely take a look on them !

anavar is not very toxic. Skewed lipid profile is not considered toxicity haha...i dont know what your trying to say?...its not going to cause any harm having a temporarily high LDL and low HDL. This is expected from any oral steroid. Anavar is not extremely bad...the worst is anadrol 50, superdrol etc...

Anavar is actually the safest steroid proven for liver toxicity which is the main issue.

Havoc, even if its not documented, of course is going to cause a major drop in SHBG simply because it is a 17aa and its non aromatizing.

Anavar is very expensive because its very gentle on the body (besides cholestrol of course) which is entirely recoverable.

 

[Yaz]

anavar is not very toxic. Skewed lipid profile is not considered toxicity haha...i dont know what your trying to say?...its not going to cause any harm having a temporarily high LDL and low HDL. This is expected from any oral steroid. Anavar is not extremely bad...the worst is anadrol 50, superdrol etc...

Anavar is actually the safest steroid proven for liver toxicity which is the main issue.

Havoc, even if its not documented, of course is going to cause a major drop in SHBG simply because it is a 17aa and its non aromatizing.

Anavar is very expensive because its very gentle on the body (besides cholestrol of course) which is entirely recoverable.

- SD isn't as toxic when it comes to lipids as Anavar is...
- Anarol is on the same league with Anavar.
- Temporary changes ? It depends on many many factors, but a mess up lipid profile from a drug like Anavar takes some weeks to come up. These "temporary" changes in the long run will proven to be bad.

- Liver toxicity by no means isn't the main issue, i didn't expect to hear this from you cuz you seem more knowledgable than many people on this board.

- Yes i agree about Havoc like most 17aa do the same but we don't know that your speculation that it may lowers SHBG further than other 17aa steroids is true.

- Anavar isn't gentle by no means:

Anavar:

- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed (CHECK paragraph "Safety" on the middle of the page)

 

[Evil]

Certainly anavar side effects, but as you can see is the most studied, the fact is the anabolic steroid oxandrolone has more studios than any other. If you studied so much for a reason? So even nandrolone has many studies behind it. This is because they are the most commonly used by doctors, and according to the scientific and medical communities are those that have fewer side effects than any. I do not say it, the doctors say, even the otherwise prescribe. In fact, there are cases of people taking the oxandrolone for years (low dose) and monitored by their doctors without any side effect. Perhaps the Havoc is also less toxic than anavar, may also be less toxic, but unfortunately there are no scientific studies to prove it, so it's useless to even talk about it. The studies that link you posted is true, and indeed show that the oxandrolone side effects, of course, but whatever is the most widely used by doctors.

 

[DetroitHammer]

Certainly anavar side effects, but as you can see is the most studied, the fact is the anabolic steroid oxandrolone has more studios than any other. If you studied so much for a reason? So even nandrolone has many studies behind it. This is because they are the most commonly used by doctors, and according to the scientific and medical communities are those that have fewer side effects than any. I do not say it, the doctors say, even the otherwise prescribe. In fact, there are cases of people taking the oxandrolone for years (low dose) and monitored by their doctors without any side effect. Perhaps the Havoc is also less toxic than anavar, may also be less toxic, but unfortunately there are no scientific studies to prove it, so it's useless to even talk about it. The studies that link you posted is true, and indeed show that the oxandrolone side effects, of course, but whatever is the most widely used by doctors.

Did you say Deca and Anavar have the least sides? Not sure if I understood you.

 

[Yaz]

Certainly anavar side effects, but as you can see is the most studied, the fact is the anabolic steroid oxandrolone has more studios than any other. If you studied so much for a reason? So even nandrolone has many studies behind it. This is because they are the most commonly used by doctors, and according to the scientific and medical communities are those that have fewer side effects than any. I do not say it, the doctors say, even the otherwise prescribe. In fact, there are cases of people taking the oxandrolone for years (low dose) and monitored by their doctors without any side effect. Perhaps the Havoc is also less toxic than anavar, may also be less toxic, but unfortunately there are no scientific studies to prove it, so it's useless to even talk about it. The studies that link you posted is true, and indeed show that the oxandrolone side effects, of course, but whatever is the most widely used by doctors.

You are cancelling your own arguements.

What does it have to do that Anavar is more studied than Epistane with the fact that Anavar is more toxic in the lipid profile than Epistane ?

Another fact is you don't necessary need a study to draw this type of conclusions about a drug's effects and side effects. Epistane has no studies behind to confirm any of this but we can tell about it's toxicity from real word experiences - blood work results - both from members from various boards and everyday people from the gym.

Your "arguement" is invalid in many ways, i would suggest you to study more these drugs from different angles so you can form a more accurate opinion.

 

[Evil]

I base myself on the medical and various books on medicine and endocrinology, after all I was treated with oxandrolone for a long time, because of my weight because I was underweight, and my doctor told me many things. I'm not saying that the havoc being toxic, absolutely, I never said, I'm just saying that to confirm this we need scientific studies that show. Remember you can not only reports of the various blood tests of some people to say that this is not toxic, because every body is different and each is acting in a totally different substance. You can not do all the same brush. And I repeat, I'm not saying I, the doctors say. So do not be angry with me, but but if you want your argument to be confirmed, ask some medical researcher.

 

[Evil]

However, we are just discussing, there is no need to blame the various users. We discuss normally, after I graduated to express my real opinion, I know how all the chemicals act on the body because I have studied and have given several tests, but unfortunately they are not graduated. So guys normally discuss without getting angry. We are all friends because we all have in common the passion for bodybuilding. Anyway sorry for the way a little bit incorrect as I write, I'm Italian and English do not know him so well.

 

[Yaz]

- Yes everybody's different, the same goes with studies(don't get me wrong i'm a studies-fan by far) even the may have some variables in common for msot chosen participants that doesn't mean there aren't a whole lot different variables to consider.

- I'm sorry but your way of thinking is incorrect, i don't have to "ask" or read something/someone in the medical field to confirm things that can be confirmed via blood -work results. Having an X amount of people with the same/ most common variables in place you can still draw great conclusions. And let me remind you another usual side of the coin(medical field info) that you should already know that theory doesn't/usually doesn't agree with real world experience.

- I'm not blamming anyone for anything, check up my post again - you seem to have some technical difficulties for understanding english language, am i correct ? At least to some extent that's what i'm getting by your grammar - by no means i'm bashing you.

- By no means i'm angry/nor can i be angry.


Edit: Just saw you mentioned that english isn't your first language.

 

[Evil]

Yes, I do not speak English, are Italian. I'm studying English but I still have some difficulties in writing and speaking, it helped me with a translator. Yes indeed you are right, there are many studies showing that the oxandrolone has many side effects, I'm not denying this. But it's used for years and years to many people, if it were so dangerous I do not think the doctors will prescribe to many people. I had been prescribed because of my thinness, I was underweight, and I used it for many months without interrupting it (logically to a low dose). I was always monitored by my doctor, and I have not had any kind of side effect, the values ​​of my cholesterol levels were normal, and even those of the liver (at the end were a little out of range, but nothing special).

 

[JBowling]

- SD isn't as toxic when it comes to lipids as Anavar is...
- Anarol is on the same league with Anavar.
- Temporary changes ? It depends on many many factors, but a mess up lipid profile from a drug like Anavar takes some weeks to come up. These "temporary" changes in the long run will proven to be bad.

- Liver toxicity by no means isn't the main issue, i didn't expect to hear this from you cuz you seem more knowledgable than many people on this board.

- Yes i agree about Havoc like most 17aa do the same but we don't know that your speculation that it may lowers SHBG further than other 17aa steroids is true.

- Anavar isn't gentle by no means:

Anavar:

- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed (CHECK paragraph "Safety" on the middle of the page)

Have just been reading your posts here and some things have puzzled me. Im not sure if your definition of "toxic" is different than mine, but to say that anavar is toxic to your lipids in my opinion is a "bad" statement. It is true that it will lower your HDL levels over time and raise your LDL levels. This is corrected quite quickly with proper vitamin intake along with proper PCT. The point that i believe monsterbox is trying to make is liver toxicity is the least desirable side of anabolic use and the idea is to try and minimize this. It is no secret that anavar is one of the least toxic suppz to the liver that we know of, especially considering the results you get with it.

 

[monsterbox]

You are cancelling your own arguements.

What does it have to do that Anavar is more studied than Epistane with the fact that Anavar is more toxic in the lipid profile than Epistane ?

Another fact is you don't necessary need a study to draw this type of conclusions about a drug's effects and side effects. Epistane has no studies behind to confirm any of this but we can tell about it's toxicity from real word experiences - blood work results - both from members from various boards and everyday people from the gym.

Your "arguement" is invalid in many ways, i would suggest you to study more these drugs from different angles so you can form a more accurate opinion.

hmmm....

Im going to have to disagree with this post.

In reality, Epistane may or may not be more toxic, lesss harsh on lipids etc...but you don't have factual evidence. All you have is a few blood tests from members on various messege boards...I bet you can't even find over 25 conclusive blood tests with the same condition/diets/age/routine/usage relating to epistane/havoc. ALL OTC Prohormones/steroids and their effects are reported on user reports/anecdotal evidence. Therefore, I dont care what I, you, or 100 people say about how "safe" havoc/epi is, its NOT proven fact.

There are so many factors to consider that you are missing entirely.

1. OTC products are NOT backed by 10+ years of FDA research.
2. OTC hormones are not under strict quality control (ex. CEL labs had overdoes PPlex, and IBE had fake epistane in a first batch)
3. you don't have any proof that what the compound reads on the back was achieved through proper reactions/formulations. (its been rumored that M-drol is formulated with a cheap shortcut using anadrol50 instead of the orinignal process with AX Superdrol, which may be the recent gyno issues)

4. MOST blood tests are reported AFTER pct. This gives over 4 weeks for levels to restablize in the body. You cannot compare these against "on-cycle" reports.


Conclusively,

Havoc/Epi is a great compound for me, and for you, and for quite as few others, but there have been some major issues. RPN is out of business BECAUSE SOMEONE HAD LIVER FAILURE from a 5 month use. You may find comparable destructive issues with anavar, dbol, any of the real drugs but the evidence is there, and its predictable.

PH users must beware, and are always taking a risk by popping some unregulated pills. This is why I am willing to justify 300 bucks extra to run an equivalent cycle of anavar for 8-10 weeks, because I know what to expect at all times.

On the flipside, if epithio's were prescription drugs and had comparable controlled studies that we could put side-by-side against var, then this arugment could proceed. But theres no arguing with factual evidence...so its just SUGGESTION that epistane is safer than anavar.

 

[Yaz]

Have just been reading your posts here and some things have puzzled me. Im not sure if your definition of "toxic" is different than mine, but to say that anavar is toxic to your lipids in my opinion is a "bad" statement. It is true that it will lower your HDL levels over time and raise your LDL levels. This is corrected quite quickly with proper vitamin intake along with proper PCT. The point that i believe monsterbox is trying to make is liver toxicity is the least desirable side of anabolic use and the idea is to try and minimize this. It is no secret that anavar is one of the least toxic suppz to the liver that we know of, especially considering the results you get with it.

- The same thing i'm saying as you, that Anavar is toxic on the lipids and that's a bad thing obviously.

- Vitamin intake will restore lipid profile ? What does PCT have to do with lipid profile recovery ?

- FYI liver toxicity isn't as serious as lipid toxicity - i'm not say thing to you but in general - this statement most people that do it are usually uneducated on the subject.
The longer your lipid profile is mess up, the higher the chances for your body to build up plaque on the arteries. Generally messed up lipid profile goes with high risks of Atherosclerosis which has other possible risks for cardiovascular diseases.

- Liver itself is built to be very resiliant, actually it's the most resiliant organ of the human body because it simply filters everything that goes into the bloodstream.
It's the only organ of the body that it can take excessive damage and it can repaired itself completely.

- I don't really know how you are the only one that confused by my points, but i believe that i never mentioned anything concering about Anavar's toxicity on liver - i have already stated how mild it is for a 17aa steroid.

hmmm....

Im going to have to disagree with this post.

In reality, Epistane may or may not be more toxic, lesss harsh on lipids etc...but you don't have factual evidence. All you have is a few blood tests from members on various messege boards...I bet you can't even find over 25 conclusive blood tests with the same condition/diets/age/routine/usage relating to epistane/havoc. ALL OTC Prohormones/steroids and their effects are reported on user reports/anecdotal evidence. Therefore, I dont care what I, you, or 100 people say about how "safe" havoc/epi is, its NOT proven fact.

There are so many factors to consider that you are missing entirely.

1. OTC products are NOT backed by 10+ years of FDA research.
2. OTC hormones are not under strict quality control (ex. CEL labs had overdoes PPlex, and IBE had fake epistane in a first batch)
3. you don't have any proof that what the compound reads on the back was achieved through proper reactions/formulations. (its been rumored that M-drol is formulated with a cheap shortcut using anadrol50 instead of the orinignal process with AX Superdrol, which may be the recent gyno issues)

4. MOST blood tests are reported AFTER pct. This gives over 4 weeks for levels to restablize in the body. You cannot compare these against "on-cycle" reports.


Conclusively,

Havoc/Epi is a great compound for me, and for you, and for quite as few others, but there have been some major issues. RPN is out of business BECAUSE SOMEONE HAD LIVER FAILURE from a 5 month use. You may find comparable destructive issues with anavar, dbol, any of the real drugs but the evidence is there, and its predictable.

PH users must beware, and are always taking a risk by popping some unregulated pills. This is why I am willing to justify 300 bucks extra to run an equivalent cycle of anavar for 8-10 weeks, because I know what to expect at all times.

On the flipside, if epithio's were prescription drugs and had comparable controlled studies that we could put side-by-side against var, then this arugment could proceed. But theres no arguing with factual evidence...so its just SUGGESTION that epistane is safer than anavar.

1) The fact that Anavar has studies that show what the sides are, doesn't mean that the same variables were used to the subjects in comparison to real-world people for Bodybuilding puproses.

2) If you feel that in boards all there is, is anecdotal evidence what's the point of you (and every "you" ) to be on one ?

3) From the very beginning myself stated that Epi has no studies at all, but when you have a large amount of people that have the same experiences with a drug( even some with the same variables or very similar) you draw many conclusions even if it's considered anecdotal evidence.

4) I agree with the fact many companies that produce PHs/DS the last couple of years, seem to have experiences some failure batches but let's be clear don't think that this cannot happen with pharma grade products or UGL lab products ? The fact is the only reason we know about these issues is because of the level of knowledge availability and popularity.

PS When i mention real -world experience doesn't necessary mean experience only from boards, by no means.

Anyway i feel we covered this subject by most possible angles :439:

 

[JBowling]

- The same thing i'm saying as you, that Anavar is toxic on the lipids and that's a bad thing obviously.

- Vitamin intake will restore lipid profile ? What does PCT have to do with lipid profile recovery ?

- FYI liver toxicity isn't as serious as lipid toxicity - i'm not say thing to you but in general - this statement most people that do it are usually uneducated on the subject.
The longer your lipid profile is mess up, the higher the chances for your body to build up plaque on the arteries. Generally messed up lipid profile goes with high risks of Atherosclerosis which has other possible risks for cardiovascular diseases.

- Liver itself is built to be very resiliant, actually it's the most resiliant organ of the human body because it simply filters everything that goes into the bloodstream.
It's the only organ of the body that it can take excessive damage and it can repaired itself completely.

- I don't really know how you are the only one that confused by my points, but i believe that i never mentioned anything concering about Anavar's toxicity on liver - i have already stated how mild it is for a 17aa steroid.


Again I will re-state what do you mean by lipid toxicity? Raising or lowering your cholesterol levels? This hardly means that it is toxic. And again this is something that can be quickly corrected after a cycle and some of which can be done during your cycle. The term PCT, means Post Cycle Therapy, this means restoring your body back to normal. Both hormonally and your other profiles that may have been altered during your cycle, so YES this does mean your cholesterol level. And YES certain vitamins and flaxseed are all things that will help restore this balance. I also think that you are confusing cycles with long term use. Yes high levels of cholesterol over long periods of time can cause atherosclerosis, but were talking several years (most of the time, unless you already have build up) in young adults, not 5 months. But YES you can permanently damage your liver in a much shorter time. Yes the liver is resilient, it is one of the filtering agents of the body, but it has limits like anything else. And guess what once its pushed too far, you dont get it back. Plaque build up will resolve itself in young people (if it even truly develops at a measurable level at all). Would argue with you that the liver is not the most resilient organ, but I will save that for another time. I think you know some about these products but lack some general education about the body and its processes.
Edit: I did see where you corrected yourself saying that Var was less toxic than most 17aa.

 

[JBowling]

- The same thing i'm saying as you, that Anavar is toxic on the lipids and that's a bad thing obviously.

- Vitamin intake will restore lipid profile ? What does PCT have to do with lipid profile recovery ?

- FYI liver toxicity isn't as serious as lipid toxicity - i'm not say thing to you but in general - this statement most people that do it are usually uneducated on the subject.
The longer your lipid profile is mess up, the higher the chances for your body to build up plaque on the arteries. Generally messed up lipid profile goes with high risks of Atherosclerosis which has other possible risks for cardiovascular diseases.

- Liver itself is built to be very resiliant, actually it's the most resiliant organ of the human body because it simply filters everything that goes into the bloodstream.
It's the only organ of the body that it can take excessive damage and it can repaired itself completely.

- I don't really know how you are the only one that confused by my points, but i believe that i never mentioned anything concering about Anavar's toxicity on liver - i have already stated how mild it is for a 17aa steroid.




1) The fact that Anavar has studies that show what the sides are, doesn't mean that the same variables were used to the subjects in comparison to real-world people for Bodybuilding puproses.

2) If you feel that in boards all there is, is anecdotal evidence what's the point of you (and every "you" ) to be on one ?

3) From the very beginning myself stated that Epi has no studies at all, but when you have a large amount of people that have the same experiences with a drug( even some with the same variables or very similar) you draw many conclusions even if it's considered anecdotal evidence.

4) I agree with the fact many companies that produce PHs/DS the last couple of years, seem to have experiences some failure batches but let's be clear don't think that this cannot happen with pharma grade products or UGL lab products ? The fact is the only reason we know about these issues is because of the level of knowledge availability and popularity.

PS When i mention real -world experience doesn't necessary mean experience only from boards, by no means.

Anyway i feel we covered this subject by most possible angles :439:

I recount my last edit, because you did say that Anavar is the same as Anadrol in terms of the "same" league. I think you are going to search long and hard to find anyone on hear that knows anything about gear that would agree with you on this statement.

 

[Yaz]

I'm sorry but you really making this hard - i can't be repeating myself and i can't start teaching anyone anything.

- Lipid toxicity - means low HDL/high VLDL/high LDL/high triglecyrides

- PCT - is a process refering to HPTA recovery, has nothing to do lipid /liver profile/ that's the meaning of it.

- 'Vitamin" intake has nothing to do with flaxseed supplementation - flaxseed is a very potent natural source of fibre and Omega 3s(yes this helps with lipids but it has nothing to do with vitamins etc) What are those vitamins that your are referring to specifically ?

- Permanent damage of liver ? Highly unlikely ... If by "push too far" you mean pissing blood it's possible, but if you mean jaundice not quite. Please by all means google liver or search on Wikipedia, i'm not bashing but it will be very helpful.

- Plague will resolve itself in young people ? Magically ?

- Never corrected myself about Anavar's toxicity, i already stated this in this thread and many other threads also - learn to read properly.

- The fact that many people in this board will not agree with me in the statement you refer to doesn't mean they are necessarily right and i'm wrong. Let me say an example that half the people on this board don't know the meaning of PCT process(what class of drugs should be used and why), why HCG shouldn't be used in PCT and Anavar & Winstrol are some of the most toxic orals(I have studies already posted).

You are very offensive in many many ways. Who is uneducated let the "people" of the board you're refering to choose by themselves.
Good day.

 

[JBowling]

I'm sorry but you really making this hard - i can't be repeating myself and i can't start teaching anyone anything.

- Lipid toxicity - means low HDL/high VLDL/high LDL/high triglecyrides

- PCT - is a process refering to HPTA recovery, has nothing to do lipid /liver profile/ that's the meaning of it.

- 'Vitamin" intake has nothing to do with flaxseed supplementation - flaxseed is a very potent natural source of fibre and Omega 3s(yes this helps with lipids but it has nothing to do with vitamins etc) What are those vitamins that your are referring to specifically ?

- Permanent damage of liver ? Highly unlikely ... If by "push too far" you mean pissing blood it's possible, but if you mean jaundice not quite. Please by all means google liver or search on Wikipedia, i'm not bashing but it will be very helpful.

- Plague will resolve itself in young people ? Magically ?

- Never corrected myself about Anavar's toxicity, i already stated this in this thread and many other threads also - learn to read properly.

- The fact that many people in this board will not agree with me in the statement you refer to doesn't mean they are necessarily right and i'm wrong. Let me say an example that half the people on this board don't know the meaning of PCT process(what class of drugs should be used and why), why HCG shouldn't be used in PCT and Anavar & Winstrol are some of the most toxic orals(I have studies already posted).

You are very offensive in many many ways. Who is uneducated let the "people" of the board you're refering to choose by themselves.
Good day.

Well there is just so much here that I dont even know where to start. Im not sure if you have actually done your own research or you just regurgitate things that you have read or heard. Again I am sorry you are offended but every time you go on about something you prove more of what you do not know about the human body. I have been trying to water things down for you to understand but feel like I am talking to a brick.
-If you think that PCT only refers to HPTA recovery then you are sorely mistaken. This is the period of time where you try and restore natural homestasis in the body, not just your test levels or sex drive. This is common knowledge (or at least should be).
-Again you may want to do research on the subject before you ask questions. There are countless vitamins and supplements (i.e flaxseed) that aids in balancing your cholesterol levels. This info is in all of my medical school textbooks and all over the internet, should not be hard to find if you look.
-And yes you did clarify yourself, saying that Var is very mild on the liver compared to other 17aa steroids. But several posts before you said that Var is in the same league as anadrol. WHAT? This is a ridiculous statement. Anadrol is one of if not the most toxic on the liver of any steroid that is used out there. Again this should be common knowledge.
-You are also the only person I have ever heard make the claim that Var is one of the most toxic steroids in existence. Either everyone else in the bodybuilding/athletic world is confused or you just have some inside information that the rest of the world has not been made privy to yet.

- I see you think im offensive, but that was never my intent. But you have gone after several people in this thread, and you have made some very poor and inaccurate statements. I hope that you go back and research more on these things (use medical books, not just the net) and see what I am saying. I havent been spending 10k's of $ for a medical degree for nothing.

 

[Yaz]

Well there is just so much here that I dont even know where to start. Im not sure if you have actually done your own research or you just regurgitate things that you have read or heard. Again I am sorry you are offended but every time you go on about something you prove more of what you do not know about the human body. I have been trying to water things down for you to understand but feel like I am talking to a brick.
-If you think that PCT only refers to HPTA recovery then you are sorely mistaken. This is the period of time where you try and restore natural homestasis in the body, not just your test levels or sex drive. This is common knowledge (or at least should be).
-Again you may want to do research on the subject before you ask questions. There are countless vitamins and supplements (i.e flaxseed) that aids in balancing your cholesterol levels. This info is in all of my medical school textbooks and all over the internet, should not be hard to find if you look.
-And yes you did clarify yourself, saying that Var is very mild on the liver compared to other 17aa steroids. But several posts before you said that Var is in the same league as anadrol. WHAT? This is a ridiculous statement. Anadrol is one of if not the most toxic on the liver of any steroid that is used out there. Again this should be common knowledge.
-You are also the only person I have ever heard make the claim that Var is one of the most toxic steroids in existence. Either everyone else in the bodybuilding/athletic world is confused or you just have some inside information that the rest of the world has not been made privy to yet.

- I see you think im offensive, but that was never my intent. But you have gone after several people in this thread, and you have made some very poor and inaccurate statements. I hope that you go back and research more on these things (use medical books, not just the net) and see what I am saying. I havent been spending 10k's of $ for a medical degree for nothing.

- PCT --> no matter how much you google it, it will only refer to HPTA recovery, the fact that you include lipid/liver recovery is another story - please stop making your own clams to be true, please ask all the people in this board what they mean when the use the term PCT

- I already mentioned what is flaxseed oil ( and i assumed that by mentioning fibre and Omega 3s you would get that i know it is for cholesterol support - obviously you don't) - YOU NEVER mention the term support supplement or anything similar, i asked you to mention specifically(!) what vitamins( Invalid Link Removed just to be clear) are the ones that you're reffering too, that lower cholesterol - NEVER asked/said anything about any kind of support supplements other than vitamins

- Learn to read properly, yes i said that Anavar's liver toxicity is low even for a 17aa steroid and it is in the same league with Anadrol regarding lipids(!) - learn to read properly and stop trying to get on top with "smart" moves.

PLEASE by all means read these links and stop making these claims about Anavar:

- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed (CHECK paragraph "Safety" on the middle of the page)

- If you still feel than Anavar isn't that toxic please feel free to use it year around.

--> You are offensive to this thread and to me:
- by making me repeating myself without reading properly the whole conversation
- the only points some of the members disagreed with me was the medical research that Anavar has been put into in comparison to Epistane
- trying to "play" with the words and trying to change the meaning of my claims and yours when you need something to hang to

Just so we can end this, with all the people posted on this thread and all the others that viewed it you are the only one who has problems, the only who keeps on stating things and change them, the only one who's trying to give more meaning to some terms than they already have.
Further more, everybody seem to have accepted(= meaning understand my posts) my arguements, both from practical and theoritical approach, a great deal of them (i believe) see to agree (except with the part that effects/sides of Anavar are proven fact in comparison to Epistane which aren't and i personally i agree because it's true but for me it isn't the only thing that matters, even though i'm studies fan ).
From the very beginning everything i'm stating is plain and simple to understand by reading properly and noone seem to has any problems.

So from my perspective this conversation has nothing to offer me - not trying to be a smart guy, don't care, don't like this style - so i'll leave it the way it is. If you feel to still post in the same way you do by changing/playing with words it's your choice, even more if you like to make comments that you outclassed me etc and so i left - please feel free to do so - doesn't really matter.
The forum members seem to understand the points i'm trying to make and to most i clearly shown my point of view and that's all that matters.


Please stop posting and trying to outclass someone by this "sneaky" way of writing

 

[JBowling]

- PCT --> no matter how much you google it, it will only refer to HPTA recovery, the fact that you include lipid/liver recovery is another story - please stop making your own clams to be true, please ask all the people in this board what they mean when the use the term PCT

- I already mentioned what is flaxseed oil ( and i assumed that by mentioning fibre and Omega 3s you would get that i know it is for cholesterol support - obviously you don't) - YOU NEVER mention the term support supplement or anything similar, i asked you to mention specifically(!) what vitamins( Invalid Link Removed just to be clear) are the ones that you're reffering too, that lower cholesterol - NEVER asked/said anything about any kind of support supplements other than vitamins

- Learn to read properly, yes i said that Anavar's liver toxicity is low even for a 17aa steroid and it is in the same league with Anadrol regarding lipids(!) - learn to read properly and stop trying to get on top with "smart" moves.

PLEASE by all means read these links and stop making these claims about Anavar:

- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed
- Invalid Link Removed (CHECK paragraph "Safety" on the middle of the page)

- If you still feel than Anavar isn't that toxic please feel free to use it year around.

--> You are offensive to this thread and to me:
- by making me repeating myself without reading properly the whole conversation
- the only points some of the members disagreed with me was the medical research that Anavar has been put into in comparison to Epistane
- trying to "play" with the words and trying to change the meaning of my claims and yours when you need something to hang to

Just so we can end this, with all the people posted on this thread and all the others that viewed it you are the only one who has problems, the only who keeps on stating things and change them, the only one who's trying to give more meaning to some terms than they already have.
Further more, everybody seem to have accepted(= meaning understand my posts) my arguements, both from practical and theoritical approach, a great deal of them (i believe) see to agree (except with the part that effects/sides of Anavar are proven fact in comparison to Epistane which aren't and i personally i agree because it's true but for me it isn't the only thing that matters, even though i'm studies fan ).
From the very beginning everything i'm stating is plain and simple to understand by reading properly and noone seem to has any problems.

So from my perspective this conversation has nothing to offer me - not trying to be a smart guy, don't care, don't like this style - so i'll leave it the way it is. If you feel to still post in the same way you do by changing/playing with words it's your choice, even more if you like to make comments that you outclassed me etc and so i left - please feel free to do so - doesn't really matter.
The forum members seem to understand the points i'm trying to make and to most i clearly shown my point of view and that's all that matters.


Please stop posting and trying to outclass someone by this "sneaky" way of writing

Agree with you that we will obviously not see eye to eye on these topics. However, I never misquoted or maneuvered your wording in anyway except the way that you said it. I used direct quotes from your own posting. Furthermore, I am not on here to argue, just to argue. But I think when you get on here and act like an expert, but you mislead people even in the general physiology of the body that someone needs to set the record straight. That was all. Not to mention it did not seem as though Monster was agreeing with you at all as well as several others, but maybe I'm wrong. But quotes like "i dont agree with this at all" stated by Monster in this thread would lead me to believe that they do not agree. Again I encourage you to expand your horizons when doing your research. FYI here are vitamins that lower your cholesterol:
Niacin, Garlic, Fiber, D-limonene, green tea extract, lecithin, oryzanol, pumpkin oil, Vitamin E all of these and more. All of these can be found in pill form as a vitamin. Good Luck