Anavar and proviron question?

Mcballz

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29 years old
240lbs
I'm guessing around 14% body fat
Id say I'm about 40 pounds overweight.

I gained 20lbs the first few weeks of starting testosterone. So I'm trying to shake the water weight using "shred H20"

Taking MK-677 ... 25MG each night.

150mg sust x 2 pins weekly

HCG 250iu x2 weekly. However I'm taking a one month break from the HCG.

Proviron 25mg 2x daily.

Adex: .25mg EOD.

Diet: Finally getting over my carb addiction and getting back on track. On work days I simply cannot eat in the morning. In fact I have trouble eating all day.
I pretty much don't eat until late at night.
After starting TRT my appetite really went down. The mk677 kicked it up for the past two weeks but now that seems to be wearing off.
So I basically fast the entire day, then go home and go out for my little run.
I come home and slam out my push ups, then I have a 120G protein shake, then I'll try and eat something. Such as tilapia, mixed veggies and a sweet potato.
Chicken, veggies and rice.
Nothing to specific I just try and avoide processed food, refined carbs, and of course sugar. This is how I dropped 85lbs in 5 months year.
Since then I gained a lot of fat back, my cloths aren't fitting anymore, I'm throughly annoyed and ready to know some weight off.


My knee is finally letting me go out for a 25 minute run 4 to 5x a week. (Just started back up)
Going to the gym isn't much of an option for me so I'm making the best I can out of calisthenics.

First off.... Proviron.
The reason I started taking that was to increase my energy, libido, and maybe help get rid of some water and fat.
As far as libido?..... NOPE.
My libido was great before I started taking it, my GF was happy she's getting more dick,
So I thought maybe kick it up a little more.....
Again NOPE. seems to have reduced my libido.
I did get a little more vascular, and agressive. Had to calm myself a few times, I wanted to go on a roid rampage.

So I'm really annoyed. I swear I'm gonna **** slap the **** out of the next person that goes off about it not replacing an AI.
I've heard 3 people pop off about how it doesn't replace and AI blah blah.
OKAY!?!?! Then what the **** does it do!?!?
They make it sound like it does absalutly nothing for esteogen, right after they just got done saying it has AI properties.

First off. I hear some guys barely even need an AI... Okay so let's say a bro is taking 400mg test a week, and his estrogen is only say.... 10 points above the E2 the sweet spot.
So if proviron can have a LITTLE benefit and lower his E2 right to the sweet spot then IT CAN ****ING REPLACE AN AI!!! . Am I wrong?
Again....... "it doesn't replace an AI" so then you just keep sucking down the same dosage of Aromasin or adex?
How much CAN it help!?!.... if you're taking .5mg EOD, can adding 50mg proviron allow you to reduce your adex dosage down to something like .25mg EOD?
Like come on these guys are idiots.
Mostly referring to this Issarms.com guy on you tube (Dillion Germellie) ?
I appreciate his passion and efforts but he makes some claims with out giving any info to back them up. Like one video he pops off that Aromasin increases IGF1...... ?

Anyways.

So want I am wanting to do is lose a lot of weight this month while I can still get some cardio in before the roads are packed with snow.
I have some var. And was thinking of maybe starting out with 10mg twice a day.
I'm not going to take a lot I may just stick to that. I've seen studies of men losing body fat with just 10mg daily, and the fat stayed off.

Maybe bump to 30 or 40mg at the most.

So im on TRT 150mg weekly so of course I assume I'm not going to need PCT.... But shouldn't I expect some SHBG rebound?

I was wondering if going on proviron after finishing the var then taporing that down would be a good idea.

Or would it be better if I took the proviron WITH the var ? Then continued the proviron after the var is gone for a little longer?

Thanks for reading!!
 
DemntedCowboy

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Good luck brother
 
fueledpassion

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A word of advice. Start getting blood tests. At least the most basic one from privatemdlabs, which is roughly $45 with the discount.

That way, you know what ratio doesn't work and what ratio does work. Write down on the blood work what you were taking and for how long in between each test.

Each person is different. What I mean by that is each person metabolizes drugs drastically different from the next so its really not serving anyone when we assume a certain outcome for everyone in regard to certain drug combinations. I say this because you assumed the Proviron was gonna only add to the sex drive. The only time Proviron will likely do that is if yunhave way too much estrogen and not enugh total and free test levels. A gram of Test per week will probably benefit from Proviron, for instance, b/c you probably will have excessive estrogen conversion.

But each person is different. For myself, the 250-350mg per week range is no go for sex drive and dry gains. It seems to be too much for the body to behave normally but not enough to merit AI's and such. I've noticed higher doses of Test (450-800mg/wk) seem to control estrogen much better than 300mg. In many cases, I don't need an AI at those doses or at least very little. Granted, I'm in the single digits BF these days which plays a key role I'm sure.
 

unorthodoxica

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40bs overweight and 14% bodyfat? Does that really make sense to everyone but me?

I'd say lay off the drugs. Stay on trt and maybe run a thermogenic if you feel you can't produce any results without some help. Lose the weight man then turn to drugs for the things you can't do naturally. Steroids don't help you cut fat and your anavar is probably as bunk and as your proviron. 50mg ED is not a negligible dose.
 
Mcballz

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40bs overweight and 14% bodyfat? Does that really make sense to everyone but me?

I'd say lay off the drugs. Stay on trt and maybe run a thermogenic if you feel you can't produce any results without some help. Lose the weight man then turn to drugs for the things you can't do naturally. Steroids don't help you cut fat and your anavar is probably as bunk and as your proviron. 50mg ED is not a negligible dose.
I had mentioned I gained a lot of water weight. So yes you can have a lower BF% while being unusually overweight.

Var is most definetly not bunk
Seems over dosed.
Prov: started out with brand name now using what I got from my source which everything has been 100% legit.

Definetly more vascular on prov.
Probably ran my E2 roo low with 50mg of that daily with .25mg adex eod. Heard so many go off about how is doesn't replace and AI like it should be completely negated.


I'm wondering if I'll get any SHBG rebound and get a drop in free t when I stop. I'm sure I will.


Dude Im trying to lose as much as I can, as fast I can.
Fat cells actually have androgen receptors as well..... So yes it's a fat burner..maybe not a stimulant, clen, ECA type.
But it does attach gk fat cells and cause them to be released for fuel
 
fueledpassion

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I had mentioned I gained a lot of water weight. So yes you can have a lower BF% while being unusually overweight.

Var is most definetly not bunk
Seems over dosed.
Prov: started out with brand name now using what I got from my source which everything has been 100% legit.

Definetly more vascular on prov.
Probably ran my E2 roo low with 50mg of that daily with .25mg adex eod. Heard so many go off about how is doesn't replace and AI like it should be completely negated.


I'm wondering if I'll get any SHBG rebound and get a drop in free t when I stop. I'm sure I will.


Dude Im trying to lose as much as I can, as fast I can.
Fat cells actually have androgen receptors as well..... So yes it's a fat burner..maybe not a stimulant, clen, ECA type.
But it does attach gk fat cells and cause them to be released for fuel
Let me clarify for you: fet cells have beta receptors, which turn on lipolysis (breakdown of fatty acids for energy).

Androgens indirectly increase the number of beta cells on the surface of a fat cell by upregulating adrenoreceptors of the catecholamines (adrenaline family hormones), allowing for more easily stimulated lipolysis as well as a more robust response to fat burners, like Clen, which binds to beta cells. So androgens do help and in measureable ways but your mentioning their interaction with fat cell androreceotors is misplaced because the higher BF someone is, the larger the fat cell and thus, the more androreceptors on the fat cells. Fat cell androreceptors tend to up-regulate aromatase enzyme, which is why fatter people have more problems with conversion to estrogen. Unfortunate, I know, but it appears the body wishes to only reward those who have a lean body with greater Test to estrogen ratios.

The other way androgens contribute to fat burning is by preserving muscle mass, which preserves a healthy metabolism while in a deep caloric deficit.

There are so many other things you can do while cutting to accelerate the process but I can tell you for sure of one way you can't do it for very long - and that is to reduce calories too much, too fast. Anything less than 10% below your maintenance caloric intake will trigger some slowdown of metabolism. Drop the calories to BMR levels and void of carbs w/ 60+ minutes of cardio daily and you have about 4 weeks before your adrenal glands starts to become dysfunctional. Once you're at that point, you have to very gradually increase your calories over about 4-6 weeks and start over.
 

unorthodoxica

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Let me clarify for you: fet cells have beta receptors, which turn on lipolysis (breakdown of fatty acids for energy).

Androgens indirectly increase the number of beta cells on the surface of a fat cell by upregulating adrenoreceptors of the catecholamines (adrenaline family hormones), allowing for more easily stimulated lipolysis as well as a more robust response to fat burners, like Clen, which binds to beta cells. So androgens do help and in measureable ways but your mentioning their interaction with fat cell androreceotors is misplaced because the higher BF someone is, the larger the fat cell and thus, the more androreceptors on the fat cells. Fat cell androreceptors tend to up-regulate aromatase enzyme, which is why fatter people have more problems with conversion to estrogen. Unfortunate, I know, but it appears the body wishes to only reward those who have a lean body with greater Test to estrogen ratios.

The other way androgens contribute to fat burning is by preserving muscle mass, which preserves a healthy metabolism while in a deep caloric deficit.

There are so many other things you can do while cutting to accelerate the process but I can tell you for sure of one way you can't do it for very long - and that is to reduce calories too much, too fast. Anything less than 10% below your maintenance caloric intake will trigger some slowdown of metabolism. Drop the calories to BMR levels and void of carbs w/ 60+ minutes of cardio daily and you have about 4 weeks before your adrenal glands starts to become dysfunctional. Once you're at that point, you have to very gradually increase your calories over about 4-6 weeks and start over.
Do you have any sources to prove this? I don't mean to offend you in my questioning but I hear this as an excuse from many fat people and these type of statements really get under my skin. I'm just not one to question an obese person in a social gathering.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth here but this sounds similar to the whole starvation mode thinking which to me defies logic. Most nutritionist will recommend the same generic meal plans of a decrease of 500 calories than their BMR. With the average person ranging in the 2-3k's than this 500cal decrease is 15-25% of their BMR.

Why would we see people in shows like the biggest loser continually lose dramatic amounts of weights week after week. I don't think the fact that they gain it all back is relevant to this topic.

I've also read the only factors that contribute to BMR have to do with inherited genetic, body fat and muscle composition. Have you read that calorie restriction severely influences BMR?

Don't mean to come at you man this is just a topic I can never find enough info on so would like to learn.
 
Mcballz

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What's going to cause my adrenal glands to quit? Stimulants? Or the actual Var?

Thanks for such a detailed explanation. It's nice to see something other than bro science. I'm gonna have to re-read what you wrote and fact check the best I can.
Lol! But that all sounded pretty logical.
I did see a study once though, I'll have to find it, but a bunch of male test subjects lost body fat and kept it off on jusr 10mg var a day for like 8 weeks or something.
Maybe it was a bull**** study.
But i am kinda fat. I have heard a lot it's not worth it unless you're low.body fat already.

Not looking to get shredded with what little var I have (85 10mg) so that gives me 21 days at 40mg a day. Throwing in a 25mg proviron.
Would it be more effective to loser the dose and take it for a longer duration?

So it will still help me cut fat right?
Just want to fit back in some old cloths

I guess what people mean is it being worth it pre contest and all.

And yea there is a lot of back and forth about VAR. Epically the var only cycles.
Some say it's fine, some say it completely stupid not to run test as a base.
I say it depends on YOUR test levels.
Of course the science says more free test results in less serum test......
But what good is serum test anyways if it's all bound the **** up?
I've even heard experienced users claim their T came back even higher after PCT...
....
I'll definetly share my results... 21 days may not be enough but will give me a taste of what it can do.
 
Mcballz

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Do you have any sources to prove this? I don't mean to offend you in my questioning but I hear this as an excuse from many fat people and these type of statements really get under my skin. I'm just not one to question an obese person in a social gathering.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth here but this sounds similar to the whole starvation mode thinking which to me defies logic. Most nutritionist will recommend the same generic meal plans of a decrease of 500 calories than their BMR. With the average person ranging in the 2-3k's than this 500cal decrease is 15-25% of their BMR.

Why would we see people in shows like the biggest loser continually lose dramatic amounts of weights week after week. I don't think the fact that they gain it all back is relevant to this topic.

I've also read the only factors that contribute to BMR have to do with inherited genetic, body fat and muscle composition. Have you read that calorie restriction severely influences BMR?

Don't mean to come at you man this is just a topic I can never find enough info on so would like to learn.
I can say for sure going into fat loss mode drastically lowered my testosterone.

Id have a so so sex drive and less than g
Decent errection quality. Before I started TRT anyways.
Two days on a small calories deficit, NO sex drive what do ever.
I don't think a drop on metabolism is avoidable. Nor do I believe it matters how fast you lose it. I actually feel it's better to drop it quickly and see quick results which makes people more excited to keep it off.

Unless you're some competitive body builder and it's a a simple matter of just cutting up because you have conditioned that mind set. It's incredibly hard your first time. I've lost 80 to 100lbs twice in my life. And no slow process would have been succeeded.
Its very easy for me to build muscle,.but losing fat..



God help me
 
fueledpassion

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Do you have any sources to prove this? I don't mean to offend you in my questioning but I hear this as an excuse from many fat people and these type of statements really get under my skin. I'm just not one to question an obese person in a social gathering.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth here but this sounds similar to the whole starvation mode thinking which to me defies logic. Most nutritionist will recommend the same generic meal plans of a decrease of 500 calories than their BMR. With the average person ranging in the 2-3k's than this 500cal decrease is 15-25% of their BMR.

Why would we see people in shows like the biggest loser continually lose dramatic amounts of weights week after week. I don't think the fact that they gain it all back is relevant to this topic.

I've also read the only factors that contribute to BMR have to do with inherited genetic, body fat and muscle composition. Have you read that calorie restriction severely influences BMR?

Don't mean to come at you man this is just a topic I can never find enough info on so would like to learn.
It's anecdotal on my part, but I believe John Parillo does have the studies to back it up. He has been at this for a few decades now.

Two other things: 1) I said some slowdown, not a shutdown. There is a difference.

Slowdown of metabolism means 1 of 2 things - a reduction in muscle mass or a reduction in thyroid. Sure, dropping 500kcals per day will cause a solid loss in weight to a point but eventually you'll have to keep reducing calories or increase expenditures or try to boost your metabolism for a period of time. And whatever weight you lost won't be purely fat in this case. Besides, the proper way to lose weight is a combination of calorie reduction AND increased activity, erring on the side of increasing activity where possible.

I prefer 10-20% decrease in calories with a refeed for 2 straight days on the weekends. It prevents metabolic slowdown this way.

***2) who gives a crap what morbidly obese people want to make as excuses. If it isn't this, it'll be something else. You can go a long ways by just getting up and walking for an hour a day!***

I want to edit this post with an asterisk: it sounds insensitive but I mean well by the comment. Inthe day and age where the body positive movement is taking over our society and a subtle sort of condemnation towards those who do not currently struggle with physique issues, I sometimes deliver a raw message in the belief that the complete avoidance of being raw and honest is what got us here. All that said, I have empathy in a very different way towards obese people and the only thing I can say is that your condition is fixable. Will it be easy? Not at all. But can it be overcome? Yes. Try and grab hold of that hopeful fact.
 
fueledpassion

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Let me also clarify that my perspective is in the realm of contest prepping. I should have realized and noted that.

Dropping from 20% to 10% BF is different from 10% to 5%. Again, I should have noted this. Getting into deep single digits takes a more complicated and drawn out approach. Nonetheless, how many times have you seen people lose tons of weight & while they are definitely healthier on the inside, they don't look any harder or more muscular? This is especially true with women, who have very little anabolic hormones to help stave off metabolic slowdown and muscle wasting.

Of course, we can lose weight, and even BF with just calorie reduction and even with extreme calorie reductions. That said, if I had a client that was only willing to do one or the other between cutting calories or doing more work, I'd make them do more work. But I've learned the hard way that doing more work is the less practical of the two. You end up needing to do 1+ hr of cardio daily and resistance training several times per week.

I still stand by my notion that if you cut calories and carbs out - you will see adrenal fatigue and a reduction of TSH.
 
fueledpassion

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3014770/

https://academic.oup.com/fampra/article/16/2/196/480196

This one is interesting ^^^. It implies all sorts of things such as: diet and cardio only is more effective at weight loss than diet + cardio + resistance training. Or another case where metabolism is slowed down significantly with a severe calorie restriction of 600-800kcals less than the RMR (BMR) but in otherwise sedentary people. Then another case where a moderate to severe caloric restriction with cardio did not have a significant impact on the metabolism. That said, each of these followed different diet protocols. The one with no slowdown had 70% of their calories in carbs and mostly in high fiber, complex form. It's worth noting, because I am of the belief that low carbohydrate diets lead to less T3 and more rT3 in the system since the body needs insulin to convert T4 to T3. Just something to consider.

http://sciencedrivennutrition.com/dieting-and-metabolism/

Quoting a paragraph from the above link (which is a really easy-to-read comprehensive link for various studies):

"What can we conclude from these studies? Well it looks like your “metabolism” does indeed slow down quite substantially during periods of caloric restriction/starvation and that much of that adaptation is due to changes in lean mass and possible some minor changes in hormones. This indicates that lean mass is really the primary dictator in changes in energy expenditure during periods of starvation and refeeding. Pragmatically, this means lean mass should be prioritized in a substantial amount of people"

I (this is fueledpassion again) believe that this statement above becomes even more true when we're talking about higher performance bodies that are fighting to scrap the last 3-5lbs of fat off. The body simply shuts down and things become horrible at that point when you approach dangerously low BF. For me, I start noticing extreme metabolic slowdown when I get to that 6% range, or close to it.

For what it is worth, this is how I know what I said isn't hogwash - I started my diet in the 2900-3400kcals/day range at 12% BF @ 171lbs. I ended it 6 months later at 6.5% BF @ 159-164lbs, eating only about 1400kcals per day. Glycogen load and depletion was 5lbs or so daily. Now, I am 175lbs @ 9-10% BF (ish) and to gain weight, I have to eat 3000kcals per day.

3000kcals @ 175lbs
1400kcals @ 160lbs

Of course my metabolism slowed down. If it weren't for the gear, instead of seeing a lower heart rate and less active tissue, I would have seen a LOT less mass on my body as a response to the starving conditions.
 

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