Unanswered Anabolics and Cholesterol

[CorpKiller]

Anyone have experience with their anabolics increasing their cholesterol levels?

 

[Old Witch]

Yes. They ruin your lipids. LDL goes way up, HDL crashes.

 

[jim2509]

Is this the reason alot of people chose Sarms now.....to lower the effects on lipids etc...although they are still effected to some extent?

 

[jrock645]

Is this the reason alot of people chose Sarms now.....to lower the effects on lipids etc...although they are still effected to some extent?

That among other things.

But using GW on and post cycle mitigates a lot of the damage to lipids.

 

[jim2509]

That among other things.

But using GW on and post cycle mitigates a lot of the damage to lipids.

Yeah but we all know the concerns around GW and cancer....thats one to avoid in my book buts thats a whole other story. Decent cycle support can help though, good diet etc.

 

[jrock645]

Yeah but we all know the concerns around GW and cancer....thats one to avoid in my book buts thats a whole other story. Decent cycle support can help though, good diet etc.

The GW cancer thing is heavily flawed. Its been discussed around here quite a bit.

 

[jim2509]

The GW cancer thing is heavily flawed. Its been discussed around here quite a bit.

Yeah i know about the dosaging side of things. The fact that they canned it was enough for me to think 'avoid' though.

 

[Smont]

Coming off cycle will make everything go back to normal. No need for anything to speed the process 99% of the time you will be fine.

Gw has studies that show the total opposite of the ones showing it causes cancer and can actually possibly fight cancer.

 

[jim2509]

Coming off cycle will make everything go back to normal. No need for anything to speed the process 99% of the time you will be fine.

Gw has studies that show the total opposite of the ones showing it causes cancer and can actually possibly fight cancer.

I didnt know that about GW...ill look into it cheers.

 

[CorpKiller]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[JoePaul39]

Yeah i know about the dosaging side of things. The fact that they canned it was enough for me to think 'avoid' though.

Just the fact that there is a chance it might cause cancer is enough from me...would rather have lipids tanked and die from heart disease than cancer.

 

[jim2509]

Just the fact that there is a chance it might cause cancer is enough from me...would rather have lipids tanked and die from heart disease than cancer.

Fair point. Plus from what I've read on both Ostarine and LGD 4033 lipids returned to normal post use with no damage and proving longterm arterial damage when lipids return to normal is very challenging and doesnt seem to be the case. Obviously if your smashing it for years permanently on...that might be different.

 

[JoePaul39]

Fair point. Plus from what I've read on both Ostarine and LGD 4033 lipids returned to normal post use with no damage and proving longterm arterial damage when lipids return to normal is very challenging and doesnt seem to be the case. Obviously if your smashing it for years permanently on...that might be different.

The problem is every time you run a cycle and tank your lipids plaque then accumulates on the arteries that does not go away. Over many, many, years this can catch up on someone and lead to a major or cardiatric event/hear disease. This is something I seriously took into account before I “took the dive”. I didn’t start running compounds till 39 so hopeful I can avoid this or at least stay in the game for a long time lol. But ya, I wouldn’t minimize the risk associated with tanking your lipids even temporarily, though you may be right, it may be based more on assumptions than it is actual studies. I always run cycle support to reduce risk, but even with three support supplements for my cycle my HDL plummeted to 18.

 

[jim2509]

The problem is every time you run a cycle and tank your lipids plaque then accumulates on the arteries that does not go away. Over many, many, years this can catch up on someone and lead to a major or cardiatric event/hear disease. This is something I seriously took into account before I “took the dive”. I didn’t start running compounds till 39 so hopeful I can avoid this or at least stay in the game for a long time lol. But ya, I wouldn’t minimize the risk associated with tanking your lipids even temporarily, though you may be right, it may be based more on assumptions than it is actual studies. I always run cycle support to reduce risk, but even with three support supplements for my cycle my HDL plummeted to 18.

Yes its all subjective i guess. What did you run that tanked your lipids to 18...if you dont mind me asking??

 

[JoePaul39]

Yes its all subjective i guess. What did you run that tanked your lipids to 18...if you dont mind me asking??

8 weeks of LGD 30 mg, Rad 140 30 mg, S23 30 mg, 1 Andro 345 mg and after the first two weeks of this threw in 40 mg DMZ for the last 6 weeks so needless to say I wasn’t shocked when the labs came back HDL was tanked.

 

[jim2509]

8 weeks of LGD 30 mg, Rad 140 30 mg, S23 30 mg, 1 Andro 345 mg and after the first two weeks of this threw in 40 mg DMZ for the last 6 weeks so needless to say I wasn’t shocked when the labs came back HDL was tanked.

Bloody hell...lol!! And theres me worrying about a 20mg Ostarine or 75mg Halodrol cycle with MK677.

So you recovered yet??

 

[JoePaul39]

Bloody hell...lol!! And theres me worrying about a 20mg Ostarine or 75mg Halodrol cycle with MK677.

So you recovered yet??

Ya cause I forgot to mention I am also on a cruise dose of 175 mg a week test so never felt lethargic on the cycle or afterwards which is awesome. Went up 22 pounds with not much increase in body fat percentage, although I have been off one week and dropped 3 and a half pounds of it which was probably glycogen. Still lifting the same amount. I am going to try to limit future runs to my trt and 2 or 3 stringer compounds to be honest. I think I would have gained nearly the same amount had I limited it to my trt, the S23, and the DMZ which are the stronger of those compounds I ran.

 

[jim2509]

Ya cause I forgot to mention I am also on a cruise dose of 175 mg a week test so never felt lethargic on the cycle or afterwards which is awesome. Went up 22 pounds with not much increase in body fat percentage, although I have been off one week and dropped 3 and a half pounds of it which was probably glycogen. Still lifting the same amount. I am going to try to limit future runs to my trt and 2 or 3 stringer compounds to be honest. I think I would have gained nearly the same amount had I limited it to my trt, the S23, and the DMZ which are the stronger of those compounds I ran.

Wow thats some gains nice one. I think ill crack on with my planned Ostarine/Mk677 run as want to keep fitness up but get some joint/recovery benefits out of it also. Plus i dont want to mega trash my lipids at 44....lol.

 

[JoePaul39]

Wow thats some gains nice one. I think ill crack on with my planned Ostarine/Mk677 run as want to keep fitness up but get some joint/recovery benefits out of it also. Plus i dont want to mega trash my lipids at 44....lol.

Sounds like a plan! That is the main reason in my future runs I am going to keep it to just a couple compounds. I used Osta in a
cut and liked it.

 

[jim2509]

Sounds like a plan! That is the main reason in my future runs I am going to keep it to just a couple compounds. I used Osta in a
cut and liked it.

Thats reasurring to hear as opinions vary on Osta. If I get 4 or 5lbs gain on it or just recomp nicely ill be happy. Will run it at 20mg for 8 weeks and get bloods done at half way point...just to be on safe side.

 

[Old Witch]

You can mark my words GW has never and will never cause cancer in a human. The science backs it up. The reason rats and mice get cancer from it is because they have types of metabolically dependent cancer that can grow in them which is controlled somewhat by ppard activation. Humans do not carry such cancer genes.

It’s the mechanism of action in rodents which causes cancer. It cannot do so by this same mechanism in a human as humans do not have that kind of cancer gene.

His has all been thoroughly discussed and re discussed.

 

[Old Witch]

Anyway, sarms will **** up your lipids too.

 

[Old Witch]

Anything oral is going to do it twice as fast and twice as badly.

 

[JoePaul39]

Anything oral is going to do it twice as fast and twice as badly.

Agreed, although some Sarms will tank lipids more than others. S23 or even LGD will do a harder jobs on lipids than Ostarine. Lipids are going to be tanked regardless to some degree so my attitude is might as run something strong and stack to get maximum gains out of it.

 

[Mathb33]

I disagree, osta at a decent dose is pretty toxic for a sarm.

 

[JoePaul39]

I disagree, osta at a decent dose is pretty toxic for a sarm.

Osta is harder on the liver than LGD, but not on lipids and testosterone suppression. I have William Lllewellyn’s book titled “Anabolics”. It is the most comprehensive book ever written on steroids and Sarms. He writes under side effects for LGD in a study regarding HDL and LGD “These levels declined by nearly 40 percent with a 1 mg a day dosing over 3 week.” Of test suppression on LGD “At one time point during administration of 1 mg daily, Total testosterone had been reduced by more than 50 percent compared to placebo” Ostarine was not as harsh. Regarding an Ostarine study and HDL he writes, “This was reduced by 27 percent in study participants taking 3 mg”. Of test suppression and Ostarine he writes “Suppressed testosterone was not a
significant issue in clinical trials with embossed”. (He does go on to note in the fitness community there are many reports of suppression at higher bodybuilder doses). For liver, ALT liver levels in roughly 20 percent of patients for Ostarine which was not the case for LGD.

On a side note, if anyone ever has any extra cash an investment in Llewellyn’s book is a good investment. Has drug profiles and safety studies for TONS of steroids, Sarms, peptides, anti-estrogens, and growth homones. Also has dosages and recommend risk reduction methods. It is expensive but worth it. Nearly 700 pages.

 

[PHOTOSnFIBERS]

Sounds like a plan! That is the main reason in my future runs I am going to keep it to just a couple compounds. I used Osta in a
cut and liked it.

Have you guys used MK677? I tried it last year and i was ravenously hungry, lots of bloating too. But OMG i was so hungry it was crazy.

 

[jim2509]

Osta is harder on the liver than LGD, but not on lipids and testosterone suppression. I have William Lllewellyn’s book titled “Anabolics”. It is the most comprehensive book ever written on steroids and Sarms. He writes under side effects for LGD in a study regarding HDL and LGD “These levels declined by nearly 40 percent with a 1 mg a day dosing over 3 week.” Of test suppression on LGD “At one time point during administration of 1 mg daily, Total testosterone had been reduced by more than 50 percent compared to placebo” Ostarine was not as harsh. Regarding an Ostarine study and HDL he writes, “This was reduced by 27 percent in study participants taking 3 mg”. Of test suppression and Ostarine he writes “Suppressed testosterone was not a
significant issue in clinical trials with embossed”. (He does go on to note in the fitness community there are many reports of suppression at higher bodybuilder doses). For liver, ALT liver levels in roughly 20 percent of patients for Ostarine which was not the case for LGD.

On a side note, if anyone ever has any extra cash an investment in Llewellyn’s book is a good investment. Has drug profiles and safety studies for TONS of steroids, Sarms, peptides, anti-estrogens, and growth homones. Also has dosages and recommend risk reduction methods. It is expensive but worth it. Nearly 700 pages.

40% reduction of HDL on just 1mg of Lgd.....thats pretty crazy. Isnt that worse than some PH's like Epi, Hdrol?? Does the reduction continue to decline per MG? If so thats nuts.

 

[Chados]

Just the fact that there is a chance it might cause cancer is enough from me...would rather have lipids tanked and die from heart disease than cancer.

There has never been any sign of gw causing cancer, it arguably enhanced growth of tumours in mice while in vitro it did the opposite.

 

[jim2509]

There has never been any sign of gw causing cancer, it arguably enhanced growth of tumours in mice while in vitro it did the opposite.

Makes you wonder why such a big Pharma Company like Glaxo Smith Kline pulled the plug though??

 

[Chados]

Makes you wonder why such a big Pharma Company like Glaxo Smith Kline pulled the plug though??

Probably due to cost. Instead they work on something else that hopefully won't show any negative signs in either nice or humans.

I mean steroids are damaging but they are prescribed and we know for a fact they are damaging. Sometimes the good outweighs the bad such as the benefit of steroids for muscle wasting during hiv. What they do is to create sarms as an healthier option to steroids for the exact same reason. Gw didn't show enough positives vs negatives for them to spend more money on research. There's tons of benefits with cardarine but if there's a chance it can increase tumour growth it might be worth creating a new compound rather than to find out if some studies are true

 

[jim2509]

Probably due to cost. Instead they work on something else that hopefully won't show any negative signs in either nice or humans.

I mean steroids are damaging but they are prescribed and we know for a fact they are damaging. Sometimes the good outweighs the bad such as the benefit of steroids for muscle wasting during hiv. What they do is to create sarms as an healthier option to steroids for the exact same reason. Gw didn't show enough positives vs negatives for them to spend more money on research. There's tons of benefits with cardarine but if there's a chance it can increase tumour growth it might be worth creating a new compound rather than to find out if some studies are true

Hmmm.....problem is nobody else is going to carry out the necessary extensive research anymore on Cardarine.....pretty much using yourself as an experiment on something that may or may not cause serious health implications.
I could be totally wrong of course and it may turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Mathb33]

Hmmm.....problem is nobody else is going to carry out the necessary extensive research anymore on Cardarine.....pretty much using yourself as an experiment on something that may or may not cause serious health implications.
I could be totally wrong of course and it may turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread.

There’s tons of things you’re probably consuming on a daily basis that are more dangerous for you than cardarine

 

[Anabaholic]

You can mark my words GW has never and will never cause cancer in a human. The science backs it up. The reason rats and mice get cancer from it is because they have types of metabolically dependent cancer that can grow in them which is controlled somewhat by ppard activation. Humans do not carry such cancer genes.

It’s the mechanism of action in rodents which causes cancer. It cannot do so by this same mechanism in a human as humans do not have that kind of cancer gene.

His has all been thoroughly discussed and re discussed.

Plus I'm always sceptical of studies that show cancer in rats because, and I know this is extremely unscientific, as anyone who had a pet rat as a kid can tell you, rats pretty much always get cancer anyway.

Does anyone actually notice endurance benefits? Is cardarine worth taking solo for athletic performance or is it just a good cholesterol support on cycle?

 

[Chados]

Hmmm.....problem is nobody else is going to carry out the necessary extensive research anymore on Cardarine.....pretty much using yourself as an experiment on something that may or may not cause serious health implications.
I could be totally wrong of course and it may turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread.

If it ever makes you doubt don't do it that's my thought. If you're scared of taking something you could end up being sick just because you except yourself to be sick.

 

[Old Witch]

Plus I'm always sceptical of studies that show cancer in rats because, and I know this is extremely unscientific, as anyone who had a pet rat as a kid can tell you, rats pretty much always get cancer anyway.

Does anyone actually notice endurance benefits? Is cardarine worth taking solo for athletic performance or is it just a good cholesterol support on cycle?

It’s fantastic for endurance on its own. Very very underrated compound.

I hate cardio, but I also hate quitting out on sets because I’m out of breath and heart is pounding too hard. Cardarine fixes all that very quickly.

 

[Hyde]

Everyone has already stated the fundamentals: all AAS/SARMs will negatively impact lipid profile to varying degrees, anything oral being worse, taking time off helps reverse this.

Mike Arnold is very outspoken against over-using orals. He feels this is one of the biggest promoters of atherosclerosis. People taking anavar year round because the organs can get away with it - but not the arteries, longterm. This is why using oils becomes a near necessity for continued growth if longterm health is a consideration.

From a supplement standpoint, Dante Trudel & Alex Kikkel both have recommended daily, year-round:

1-2g Citrus Bergamot
2-3g high quality Krill Oil or 4-6g Fish Oil
2-6g Ground Flaxseed
Minimum 2 servings each veggies & fruit

Cardarine at 10mg daily for 8-10 weeks at a time is something Kikkel advocates for his clients, as well.