An Odd Question

Beau

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It has been said (and attributed to, among others, Albert Einstein) that men marry women hoping that they will never change (presumably sexually, since early relationship sex is alleged to be the best it will ever be - in terms of her effort), while women marry men hoping/intending to change them into the man they want them to be.

Now, look, I am not arguing one way or the other and I am not advocating one way or the other - and I am not not interested in any suggestions that I think this is valid or not valid - or any other crap that someone wants to tag onto this (a meaningless internet question), but since this has been a long standing allegation (together with the "bait and switch" allegation), and I am just curious what others may think.

I am sure that I will be amused, either way.
 
Smont

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This perfectly describes my feelings about my girl. For 21 years i wish she was more like when i met her and for 21 years shes constantly trying to change me.

Only any time ive ever made a change for her there was zero benifit because she moves on to something else she wants me to change.

So 5 years ago i made my own list of things to change about myself.

I eliminated the things i felt were needed. And now i pretty much just tell her, im done changing. If its not good enough for you then you know where the door is.

She never leaves tho , just complains a lot. If you gave her a bag with unlimited money and a list that tells exactly how to fix all her "problems" , in 2 weeks she would be miserable again.
 
Smont

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My 5 things were 5 life changing things.

I 100% eliminated booze
I quit smoking
I made the moves to make a extra 10k per year (of course il always try to improve on this)
I eliminated the ppl who were going nowhere
And theres amother thing im not willing to spend the necessary ampunt of time explaiming for ppl to even have a clue.

But, shes still made zero efforts to improve her life. Shes done nothing pirticularly benificial for herself our our relationship in that time.

Her mother and 3 sisters are all exactly the same as well so i understand where it all comes from.
 
PhantomReaper

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Often the Daughter becomes her Mother..
Smont, that's Strong challenges..
I agree, Women want to fix or polish up they're Man..Yes,sometimes it's not meant to be mean or disrespectful, to just improve a little..!!
It's just that Women and Men are so different..

And if that's not complicated Enough..!!
Today Age..
Men cutting off their ****s..!!
Who Knows what's going on..!!
Can you even begin to imagine the Hormones, back and forth..
Let's just say..Volatile..!!
Z...
 
PolishHamm3r77

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Often the Daughter becomes her Mother..
Smont, that's Strong challenges..
I agree, Women want to fix or polish up they're Man..Yes,sometimes it's not meant to be mean or disrespectful, to just improve a little..!!
It's just that Women and Men are so different..

And if that's not complicated Enough..!!
Today Age..
Men cutting off their ****s..!!
Who Knows what's going on..!!
Can you even begin to imagine the Hormones, back and forth..
Let's just say..Volatile..!!
Z...
Unclear messages for $1000 is the category

My favorite is after all the changes, hearing “you are not the guy I met and fell in love with”.
 
Beau

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A friend just reminded me of a quote from the movie Jerry Maguire, in which the "Dorothy" (the character played by Rene Zellweger) says the following about Jerry Maguire (the character played by Tom Cruise):

Dorothy: "I love him! I love him for the man he wants to be. And I love him for the man he almost is."

Funny. I didn't remember that.
 
PhantomReaper

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I have a lovely woman waiting for Me..
That may never happen..
That's a keeper..she texts me 2 or 3 Times a day..ever since I left NC..
I told her I had to get better and extend my life, before Marring Her..
I saw what my crap did to my last girl..
So..as much as I want and desperately need her help to Beat C...
I won't include her in this F-ing Hell, I'm in Now..!!
It's something I not only want but just Need..a good woman.!!
Z...
 
subweevil

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It has been said (and attributed to, among others, Albert Einstein) that men marry women hoping that they will never change (presumably sexually, since early relationship sex is alleged to be the best it will ever be - in terms of her effort), while women marry men hoping/intending to change them into the man they want them to be.

Now, look, I am not arguing one way or the other and I am not advocating one way or the other - and I am not not interested in any suggestions that I think this is valid or not valid - or any other crap that someone wants to tag onto this (a meaningless internet question), but since this has been a long standing allegation (together with the "bait and switch" allegation), and I am just curious what others may think.

I am sure that I will be amused, either way.
2 Quotes I've heard over time come to mind:

Be the person you hope to attract.
Men marry the most beautiful woman they can afford, women marry the richest man they can attract.

Not saying I agree whole-heartedly with the second one. On a funny note, been here forever but rarely chime in and of all things, this gets me lol.
 
Dustin07

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that men marry women hoping that they will never change
while women marry men hoping/intending to change them into the man they want them to be.
Both are true, although I think due to (I hate the term) evolutionary traits that serve each other and humanity better in the end.

Real success in marriage comes from a spirit of gratitude. I'm 100% a loner type and don't have any need or desire to talk to another human being during the day, but nothing recharges my batteries and lowers my blood pressure better than falling asleep beside my wife every night.

Men marry the most beautiful woman they can afford, women marry the richest man they can attract.
My wife has more than once said "you knew what you were getting yourself into" when Amazon shows up for the 3rd time that day 😅😅
 
Beau

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Its (sort of) funny - I recently discussed this with a buddy, who just rolled his eyes. He said that his daughter married a really nice guy about 15 years ago. Apparently he was/is not someone highly motivated personally or professionally, but just a really nice "whatever, dude" type of guy. While they were dating, his daughter would go "help" clean up at his apartment, and would comment on things like "the litter box is always full and needs changing". It wasn't that the nice guy couldn't do it (of course), it was that he wasn't motivated to do it. [As a casual observation, some of us do things because they need to get done, while others are pretty much OK couch surfing unless something is on fire. It sounds like this guy falls into the second category.]

So, based on what I heard, it seems as if during the past 15 years the biggest point of contention is that (i) "he just doesn't see that things need to be done around the house and gets irritated when I ask him to do something", and (ii) he is always irritated because she "is always nagging me to do things that I really don't want to do".

I had to laugh. Here is a guy who, as described, has always been a bit of a slob, and his wife is always upset because he continues to be the bit of a slob he has always been (although he truly is a really nice guy/slob). The obvious thing is that she seeks to change something that seems to have been an inherent part of his personality since the origins of their relationship. My buddy said that his daughter has concluded that her husband "doesn't understand", although my buddy said that he has told his daughter that her husband understands perfectly, but he just doesn't want to do more than he wants to do. I've also met my buddy's daughter, she seems like to "talk about" her problems non-stop and seems to be sort of a PITA. Mr. Nice Slob Guy must have a wonderful life ...
 
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Beau

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Real success in marriage comes from a spirit of gratitude.
Agreed, that and neither party keeping a record of wrongs.

As to the comment "you knew what you were getting yourself into", I think that is sort of the point of the allegation that men marry women hoping that they will never change. To the extent (if any) it is true - it also sounds as if in some/many instances, the behavior of the person he married changed after they were married (in ways he wishes she hadn't - which might support "bait and switch" complaints). I suppose that same thing can be alleged against men as well, because there is another common allegation that men stop romancing their wife after they are married.
 
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SweetLou321

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I think a lot of people tend to practice conditional love, which is where they love someone with an expectation of some kind. When what is really needed at the core is unconditional love, the idea of loving and accepting someone as they are now without an expectation of change. To contrast this, I do think relationships (of all kinds) should come with some conditions, and those should be expressed as clearly and openly as possible so everyone is on the same page.

I also think that many people tend to only think of love as feeling, where is it may be good to also think of it as an action. So this means that if you love someone, you will still make efforts for them that reflect this. Examples based on this thread would be a guy still romancing his girl, a girl helping out her man with cleaning, ect. Sure, some periods may be tough to maintain this kind of balance, and this is where communication is key and if spoken about, compromises can be had, these compromises can even come with time limits based on circumstances.

I think wanting your partner to grow to be better is not an inherently bad thing, but this should not overshadow all of the things you love about them as they are now, even more the wanting of them to change should also not be the overwhelming dialogue you give them as well.

I am not an expert, but I have done extensive work with therapists on these topics to help me best understand my partner and to help ensure we can have a successful life together.
 
Beau

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  • To contrast this, I do think relationships (of all kinds) should come with some conditions, and those should be expressed as clearly and openly as possible so everyone is on the same page.
  • I also think that many people tend to only think of love as feeling, where is it may be good to also think of it as an action.
  • I think wanting your partner to grow to be better is not an inherently bad thing, but this should not overshadow all of the things you love about them as they are now, even more the wanting of them to change should also not be the overwhelming dialogue you give them as well.
Thank you - what you've written is very well thought out and I agree with it.

What I see each of your comments having in common is this: Marital relationships are most successful when based on commitment. That commitment manifests itself many ways, among them coloring within the lines (living up to and not violating the agreed upon boundaries and conditions), taking actions and making decisions that support those boundaries and conditions, and working closely together to make sure that as you grow – that growth intentionally occurs in ways that are supportive of the commitment that you've agreed to and willingly made. Although there are many facets to this, effective communication is essential.

As to your comment that people tend to think of love as a feeling - I agree - and when they do, they are setting themselves up for certain failure. Feelings may vary based on mood, temperament, amount of sleep - all sorts of things that fluctuate. Also, because someone "feels something" should not be taken as whatever they feel being true. At the end of the day, relationships need to be built on a solid foundation, not fleeting infatuation or early relationship lust. After that wains (and they will), the foundation (things like trust, holding the person in regard, respect, caring, integrity, etc.) must be there and be relied upon.

Another comment - people will most certainly change (that isn’t the type of change that the thread intended to discuss). But the concept of people in a relationship "growing apart" really means they (or at least one of them) failed to see to it that they continued to grow together. In short, most of the time these are the result of selfishness and or stubbornness.

Now, I think that the thought that men marry women hoping that they will never change, while women marry men hoping/intending to change them into the man they want them to be differs a bit. Unless I am mistaken, the underlying message appears to be:

  • Men chose a partner based on who they are/were at the time of marriage and do not want that to change (including sexual enticements), and
  • Women chose a partner who they believe has/had positive attributes, but the list of attributes needs to be modified (even though at that time the man did not understand that he was a "project").
 
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Dustin07

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I suppose that same thing can be alleged against men as well, because there is another common allegation that men stop romancing their wife after they are married.
absolutely. sometimes when I'm pissed off and in full blown misogyny mode, I think it's the woman's fault but plenty PLENTY of men blow my mind by how incredibly selfish they are in their relationships.

I also think that many people tend to only think of love as feeling, where is it may be good to also think of it as an action. So this means that if you love someone, you will still make efforts for them that reflect this. Examples based on this thread would be a guy still romancing his girl, a girl helping out her man with cleaning, ect.
for me.. to me... this comes back to the spirit of gratitude comment I made. It's great to have a beautiful selfless spouse who only exists to answer to your ever desire, and these things are great to enjoy, but even more valuable is having that person there to wipe your ass when you break both arms, take you to drs appts when you're in crisis mode, climb under the house and turn off the plumbing while you check the leak, baton down the windows in a storm, make the dinner while you chop wood and tend to the dogs/animals etc.

My wife is as beautiful and sexy to me as ever (even if she feels like she is at her worst) and I think the core reasoning to why I see her that way is because I'm so incredibly grateful to have her at all. That's why I'll eat mass shitpie around in-laws, and do a million things I don't want to do. I'm so grateful for her, that I'll sacrifice much of my own wants to achieve hers.

we do that, hoping our spouse will do the same, but we can't keep tabs if they don't. like you said either we love them unconditionally (verb) or we love them conditionally and that's on our own character, not theirs. But in my experience you can lead by example and make the union a much more meaningful place to be. it doesn't happen overnight.

but back to the gratitude.
she will occasionally pick me up a bottle of bourbon when grocery shopping and it feels like an incredible gift because she thought of me while she was out, and I'm not a gift guy (love languages) at all!

this week she grabbed me a bag of chips cause she knew I was making salsa, huge gesture for me! I mean she does things I won't post here, but the more I age and develop that spirit of gratitude the more meaningful the little things are and the less meaningful the negatives are.
 
Dustin07

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What I see each of your comments as having in common is this: Marital relationships are most successful when based on commitment. That commitment manifests itself many ways
that second part I think is key. I've seen 40 year marriages that look like **** but stay together till death because they're committed to not getting divorced. as you said, how does the commitment manifest itself? It should be a commitment to selfless love to our spouse.

Ephesians 5:25, you are to love your wife “as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” In other words, you lovingly lead by laying down your life.

Genesis 2:24 American Standard Version (ASV)Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
 
Beau

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that second part I think is key. I've seen 40 year marriages that look like **** but stay together till death because they're committed to not getting divorced. as you said, how does the commitment manifest itself? It should be a commitment to selfless love to our spouse.

Ephesians 5:25, you are to love your wife “as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” In other words, you lovingly lead by laying down your life.

Genesis 2:24 American Standard Version (ASV)Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Bravo.

To this I would add Philippians 2:3-5: “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
 
Dustin07

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But the concept of people in a relationship "growing apart" really means they (or at least one of them) failed to see to it that they continued to grow together. In short, most of the time these are the result of selfishness and or stubbornness.
even more valuable is having that person there to wipe your ass when you break both arms, take you to drs appts when you're in crisis mode, climb under the house and turn off the plumbing while you check the leak, baton down the windows in a storm, make the dinner while you chop wood and tend to the dogs/animals etc.
Crisis is great for a marriage. I often think one reason my first marriage didn't work was because we truly never had hard times. we got married right out of high school, I got my degree a few years later, the business was always lights on and we did fine I expected more of her than I did myself. My wife and I both recognize our failures in our previous marriages and have had more hard times to deal with being a blended family with kids from age 14-25 and I feel we are doing a better job of building a solid foundation.
 
Dustin07

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Philippians 2:3-5: “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
An eye opener for me was mid COVID. step daughters were losing their **** with lockdowns, and a loss of the senior year of high school (which I couldn't relate to cause I hated High School and went to college my sr year instead) but I recall Trump on TV one night talking about how divorces were suddenly skyrocketing ( as was drug abuse, suicides, etc) and " the cure can't be worse than the disease". It made me really put everything in life into perspective, take a step back, and focus on what is most important (marriage) in my life.
 
Beau

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Thankfully, she understands my needs and breaks out the oral when needed!
I laughed a little when I read that - but only because something a good friend of mine claims he said to his wife. As the story was told, he was initiating sex and was told "we can't, I have a gynecologist appointment". My buddy claims that he said "well, you aren't going to the dentist or proctologist, are you?" I have no idea if that conversation actually happened, but I laugh whenever I think about it.
 
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sammpedd88

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My 5 things were 5 life changing things.

I 100% eliminated booze
I quit smoking
I made the moves to make a extra 10k per year (of course il always try to improve on this)
I eliminated the ppl who were going nowhere
And theres amother thing im not willing to spend the necessary ampunt of time explaiming for ppl to even have a clue.

But, shes still made zero efforts to improve her life. Shes done nothing pirticularly benificial for herself our our relationship in that time.

Her mother and 3 sisters are all exactly the same as well so i understand where it all comes from.
Regardless of what she may think, the changes you made were what you wanted to change and those are huge changes that in the long run probably saved your life. You deserve a huge pat on the back for that bro.
 
Smont

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Regardless of what she may think, the changes you made were what you wanted to change and those are huge changes that in the long run probably saved your life. You deserve a huge pat on the back for that bro.
Ya i had to do it or things were gonna get really bad. I won't say that I hit rock bottom, because i was still getting enough done and my bills paid most of the time, but I was pretty damn close. It was only a matter of time before it became a real danger to me and everyone around me
 
Beau

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Ya i had to do it or things were gonna get really bad. I won't say that I hit rock bottom, because i was still getting enough done and my bills paid most of the time, but I was pretty damn close. It was only a matter of time before it became a real danger to me and everyone around me
Congrats on making the decision(s) to change and then putting in the hard work to cause them to happen.
 
Dustin07

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I got things pretty under control, I dialed my weekend drinking way back, and cleaned up my diet.. Smokes are gonna be my downfall. It's just too easy to smoke. I roll my own for about $1.20/pack and can do whatever I want at work. It's a work in progress.
Cutting back on the drinks and smokes of course bodes well for why we are on this forum in the first place too lol.

My wife and I love going on dry kicks together and and first thing we both always notice is how much better mornings feel when we reel it in. She's more of a wine drinker so she feels less puffy.

Plus, the cost of booze honestly has skyrocketed like all things. With inflation the way it is, I can't buy the nice bourbons too often any more so sometimes it just easier to not drink anything at all
 
PolishHamm3r77

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I got things pretty under control, I dialed my weekend drinking way back, and cleaned up my diet.. Smokes are gonna be my downfall. It's just too easy to smoke. I roll my own for about $1.20/pack and can do whatever I want at work. It's a work in progress.
I promoted to a diff department at work back in spring of 19. I could rip butts here and there in my past role at work. I switched to an office/work area that was double the commute. 1 butt ride turned into a 3 butt commute, if I got stuck in traffic or inclement weather that number went up. And to boot, I work in the field 100%, zero office time. Went from 1/2 a pack a day to 1 1/2 to 2 packs a day real fast. So then I started doing dip on my commute to lessen the smoking and that pissed my gums off.
I have been nicotine free since September 1st 2022. Cold turkey.
GIVE THAT **** UP MAN!!! It will be one of the best decisions you ever made. Time it around a bulk too. Lmao
 
akboom87

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I promoted to a diff department at work back in spring of 19. I could rip butts here and there in my past role at work. I switched to an office/work area that was double the commute. 1 butt ride turned into a 3 butt commute, if I got stuck in traffic or inclement weather that number went up. And to boot, I work in the field 100%, zero office time. Went from 1/2 a pack a day to 1 1/2 to 2 packs a day real fast. So then I started doing dip on my commute to lessen the smoking and that pissed my gums off.
I have been nicotine free since September 1st 2022. Cold turkey.
GIVE THAT **** UP MAN!!! It will be one of the best decisions you ever made. Time it around a bulk too. Lmao
That’s awesome to hear that you kicked it. Same boat I smoked back in the day camel wide lights. Worked one project and it was no smoking so started dipping, been on it ever since.
 

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Discussion about who changes whom, quite interesting, but ultimately men would be the lead over women,
Women at the end have to do what her men want her to do. I know a lot of people won't agree with this statement, but for me it’s kind of a universal truth.
 
Wobmarvel

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Discussion about who changes whom, quite interesting, but ultimately men would be the lead over women,
Women at the end have to do what her men want her to do. I know a lot of people won't agree with this statement, but for me it’s kind of a universal truth.
Good luck with that. If any woman has stayed with you knowing you have those "values" it's because you are rich.
 
Dustin07

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Discussion about who changes whom, quite interesting, but ultimately men would be the lead over women,
Women at the end have to do what her men want her to do. I know a lot of people won't agree with this statement, but for me it’s kind of a universal truth.
Good luck with that. If any woman has stayed with you knowing you have those "values" it's because you are rich.
He may have phrased it in a way that isn't politically correct but generally speaking I have had the same experience. My experience has been lead by example to get the best results (not boss people around)

but my wife and I tend to be very traditional. she does do 90% of the work inside the house including cooking and cleaning. and I do 90% of the work outside the house, including repairs, working in the rain, snow, cold, hauling and chopping wood, etc. She doesn't want to be told what to do, but she does prefer her husband to take a leadership role in quite a few ways.
 
Beau

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He may have phrased it in a way that isn't politically correct but generally speaking I have had the same experience. My experience has been lead by example to get the best results (not boss people around)

but my wife and I tend to be very traditional. she does do 90% of the work inside the house including cooking and cleaning. and I do 90% of the work outside the house, including repairs, working in the rain, snow, cold, hauling and chopping wood, etc. She doesn't want to be told what to do, but she does prefer her husband to take a leadership role in quite a few ways.
When mutually agreed upon, part of communication, establishing agreed upon "swim lanes" is effective and (in my mind) very positive.
 
Dustin07

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she does do 90% of the work inside the house including cooking and cleaning
When mutually agreed upon, part of communication, establishing agreed upon "swim lanes" is effective and (in my mind) very positive.
I want to reiterate something here, I could never cook nor clean as well as my wife. it sounds silly to say I can't clean as well as my wife but I simply can't. I'm not even sometimes aware that certain things she does need to be done lol. We sorta laugh about this because she's far messier than me. On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being spit shined, I keep myself and my "areas" of the house at like a 7-8 all the time. I'm OCD and habitual. She takes hers down to like a 1 (haha) but then she does these regular deep cleanings and it's suddenly an 11 like show room quality 😅😅
 
Beau

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A friend just reminded me of the following quote from the movie "As Good As It Gets", made by the character Melvin Udall (an author, played by Jack Nicholson) in response to a question on how he was able to write (in his novels) about women so well: "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability."
 
Dustin07

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Can’t Understand Normal Thinking
normal thinking is thinking everyone else is normal and without fault while feeling bad about your own shortcomings without realizing that every household in the world is dealing with the same daily grind and challenges
 

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