Al-Qaida Has Nuclear Weapons Inside U.S.

The point is all of the countries that would not support us were all making quit a bit of money from Iraq. Coincidence? No. Open up a paper or watch the news. There have been several stories about ours and England's intelligence being correct that Iraq was trying to obtain nuclear material from Africa this week.
the entire world didnt support you, so that rubbishies your point, and you have provided no proof of your extremely far fetched claims about the african nuclear link which is widely known as false except to you who seems to think it is real.
so that dismisses all of those points as invalid.

So your saying news week was wrong in 1999 and Czech intelligence is wrong too? I don't suppose you could provide any evidence to that case could you?
a waste of space as usual
Invalid Link Removed so that dismisses that point as invalid.

It is my opinion that Iraq supplied the terrorists with anthrax. your opinion is wrong,
It is my opinion that Iraq supplied the terrorists with anthrax. your opinion is wrong
I spent quit a bit of time writing a paper about this. Do you even know anything about it? My guess is no.

where is your proof, you supply no dates thi s could have been in 1991 over a decade ago, Invalid Link Removed so please see this link about iraq not having links with al-queda so that makes that point invalid.

Put on your thinking cap for a minute. Do you think maybe that terrorists would want to use this material to make a weapon? How about this... maybe just maybe Sadam was either planning to give the material to terrorists or make his own bomb? You left this quote out by the way... "could potentially be used in a radiological dispersal device," or dirty bomb"
first you tried to link this waste to WMD and as justification of the entire iraq war, when i told you it wasnt weapons grade you concided to a dirty bomb and when i told you this was hospital waste that is unavoivable in anyway country with a half decent medical system you have concided to this dirty bomb idea. this kind of nuclear material is available everywhere

just maybe Sadam was either planning to give the material to terrorists or make his own bomb?
this goes to show how despereate you are in jusitifcation for your invalid points, just how exactly do you think terrorists are going to handle nuclear materials.

so all in all alot of invalid points i hope you change your views to the right
 
CDB said:
You need to read the post that quote was in response to, it was in line with it's tone. I've kept my argumentative posts in line as well. Getting laid is no problem, you might have a point about the gym though. I've got second degree burns running up and down both legs and can't workout for another week or so. It's infuriating.

Sorry to hear about the burns....... ouch. Maybe some aloe and vitamin E oil may help with healing/prevent scarring.

Best of luck with that!
 
hiphop said:
the entire world didnt support you, so that rubbishies your point, and you have provided no proof of your extremely far fetched claims about the african nuclear link which is widely known as false except to you who seems to think it is real.
so that dismisses all of those points as invalid.

Only yesterday the major US media outlets, who revel in slamming Bush at every turn of the way, were running segments indicating that there was in fact evidence to support W's state of the union address wherein he cited British intelligence as having evidence that Sodomizer Hussein was pursuing yellow cake uranium purchases in Niger. That evidence further went on to say that it was unclear as to whether or not he had been successful. Nonetheless a vindication of sorts for both Blair and Bush.

One can argue this back and forth all day long. But in Saddam's case, he once had WMD, he USED WMD, he bombed Israel with scud missiles when we ousted him from Kuwait, he supported Palestinian suicide bombers by paying their surviving families about $12K after successfully blowing themselves and as many civilian Israelis as they possibly could...........by some estimates he's killed 2 million of his own citizens, men women and children alike. Hans Blix stated Hussein had not accounted for the disposition of all his WMD to his inspectors satisfaction, the UN security council approved the enforcement of resolutions against Iraq BY FORCE, even if some countries didn't have the balls or had competing motivations against following through. Whether or not someone was for or against the war and/or the timing of the war, any reasonably prudent person would conclude that it was only a matter of time as to when he would reconstitute his arsenal of WMD, and there was at least some evidence suggesting that he already had. He clearly wanted the rest of the world to believe that he had. Post 9-11, most people were comparing 9-11 to Pearl Harbor insofar as the severity of the attack on our own soil. Bill Clinton indicated he didn't commit troops against bin Laden because America lacked the pollitical will. 9-11 changed that. Bush knew this was the opportunity to strike and chose to do so, both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Don't overlook the point that the US now has a new strategic position from which to conduct military operations if and when they're deemed necessary (Iraq). At least we won't have to be begging the Saudi's to please, please please let us fly out of Riyadh, and fly over your space, please please please..... oh and btw, the check is in the mail.

The loss of life in the conflict is regrettable for all sides. Someone recently asked me how I would feel sending one of my own kids over to fight in Iraq. I answered him this way: I feel the same as if I was asked to send 1 of my own kids to invade the beaches of Normandy during WWII. Obviously, I wouldn't have wanted them to go, no parent would. Sadly for those who did, it was nonetheless the right thing to do.

Bottom line........the world is a better place without he and his regime. In the long run, this was the right move.
 
Only yesterday the major US media outlets, who revel in slamming Bush at every turn of the way, were running segments indicating that there was in fact evidence to support W's state of the union address wherein he cited British intelligence as having evidence that Sodomizer Hussein was pursuing yellow cake uranium purchases in Niger. That evidence further went on to say that it was unclear as to whether or not he had been successful. Nonetheless a vindication of sorts for both Blair and Bush.
Invalid Link Removed this invalidates that point

One can argue this back and forth all day long. But in Saddam's case, he once had WMD, he USED WMD, he bombed Israel with scud missiles when we ousted him from Kuwait, he supported Palestinian suicide bombers by paying their surviving families about $12K after successfully blowing themselves and as many civilian Israelis as they possibly could...........by some estimates he's killed 2 million of his own citizens, men women and children alike.
this is irrelevent waffle that is a poor attempt to avoid the point that the US was wrong.

Hans Blix stated Hussein had not accounted for the disposition of all his WMD to his inspectors satisfaction, the UN security council approved the enforcement of resolutions against Iraq BY FORCE, even if some countries didn't have the balls or had competing motivations against following through. Whether or not someone was for or against the war and/or the timing of the war, any reasonably prudent person would conclude that it was only a matter of time as to when he would reconstitute his arsenal of WMD, and there was at least some evidence suggesting that he already had. He clearly wanted the rest of the world to believe that he had. Post 9-11, most people were comparing 9-11 to Pearl Harbor insofar as the severity of the attack on our own soil. Bill Clinton indicated he didn't commit troops against bin Laden because America lacked the pollitical will. 9-11 changed that. Bush knew this was the opportunity to strike and chose to do so, both Afghanistan and Iraq.
this rubbishes that point
Invalid Link Removed this is bush's very own appointed inspector

Don't overlook the point that the US now has a new strategic position from which to conduct military operations if and when they're deemed necessary (Iraq). At least we won't have to be begging the Saudi's to please, please please let us fly out of Riyadh, and fly over your space, please please please..... oh and btw, the check is in the mail.
there goes the
immenent threat
there goes he was a bad dude so we had to get him out
there goes any talk of him having WMD
really we just wanted to have one foot up the arabs asses so we can kick there butt whenever we feel like it.

The loss of life in the conflict is regrettable for all sides. Someone recently asked me how I would feel sending one of my own kids over to fight in Iraq. I answered him this way: I feel the same as if I was asked to send 1 of my own kids to invade the beaches of Normandy during WWII. Obviously, I wouldn't have wanted them to go, no parent would. Sadly for those who did, it was nonetheless the right thing to do.
MAAWWAAAHHHAAAA comparing iraq to WW2 hmhmmmm now i know you stupid

so again loads of invalid points i suggest you go to the library instead of the gym in the future.
 
PC1 said:
Bottom line........the world is a better place without he and his regime. In the long run, this was the right move.
Bottom line... they said this after every US intervention in the Middle East, from Egypt to Syria to Lebanon to Iraq. I fail to see how things have gotten better overall in the region. That's why in one of my previous posts (not in reply to you I don't think) I asked for an example of long term stability, say at least more than fifteen or twenty years, in the region that was the arguably result of US intervention.
 
hiphop said:
Invalid Link Removed this invalidates that point

The bbc is full of ****, Joe Wilson has been totally discredited and was the one who lied. British intelligence has not backed away from their claim that he sought yellow cake in Africa, they have shipment of scap metal with yellow cake from Iraq showing up in Belgium. Hmmmmm seems like actual FACTS don't mean anything to a LLL.

hiphop said:
precisely CBD the whole reason why the area is so fcuked up is cos of america

STFU, the reason that area is so fucked up is because of their 'dark-age' religion.
 
the entire world didnt support you, so that rubbishies your point, and you have provided no proof of your extremely far fetched claims about the african nuclear link which is widely known as false except to you who seems to think it is real.
so that dismisses all of those points as invalid.
No it doesn't and you keep referring back to your if the world shoots it's self in the head so should the united states defense. Just because everybody's doing something doesn't make them right. Along time ago everyone thought the world was flat. By your rationale that automatically makes them correct. I will say again pick up a news paper there are more and more stories about England and our intelligence being correct about Iraq attempting to get nuclear material in Africa.
a waste of space as usual
Invalid Link Removed so that dismisses that point as invalid.
If you read the story it basically says the commission says that it found no evidence of an Iraq Al Qaeda link but the Bush administration disagrees with this. Czech intelligence has stood by it's finding of the meetings. Then there is the Newsweek story. So I guess if you can dismiss a story in Newsweek, then I can dismiss a story in the Washington post.
where is your proof, you supply no dates thi s could have been in 1991 over a decade ago, Invalid Link Removed so please see this link about iraq not having links with al-queda so that makes that point invalid.
The post has nothing to do with anthrax. I could post my paper but I am not going to waste my time and you wouldn't read it any way. My question to you is where is your proof for anything you said? That article proves nothing other than the Bush administration disagrees with the commission.
first you tried to link this waste to WMD and as justification of the entire iraq war, when i told you it wasnt weapons grade you concided to a dirty bomb and when i told you this was hospital waste that is unavoivable in anyway country with a half decent medical system you have concided to this dirty bomb idea. this kind of nuclear material is available everywhere
Find me where I said that the nuclear waste justifies whole Iraq war? If you look at how the post went. I posted the articles and you flat out dismissed it saying it was simply waste leavening out the fact that the articles said that a dirty bomb could be made from the material. Now you back tracking saying I "concede" that it was a dirty bomb. That's pretty much what the article was about. Lets put our thinking cap on again hiphop. Do you think it is more likely that Al Queada would launch a nuclear weapon from another country or use a suite case "dirt bomb" nuke?
this goes to show how despereate you are in jusitifcation for your invalid points, just how exactly do you think terrorists are going to handle nuclear materials.

so all in all alot of invalid points i hope you change your views to the right
Nice try. So far we know that you think the UN should rule the world, you think that they care about American security and would quickly move if there was a threat. Seeing that you didn't answer the question about anthrax it's safe to say you don't know anything about that. The Newsweek article which you didn't read is inaccurate but the Washington post isn't. You thought that the informant who was being paid off was now the head of Iraq. Instead of answering any of my questions you post a link about the Bush administration disagreeing with the commissions findings. You never answer any questions or back up anything you say yet you ask everyone else to do that. The person who is desperate is you and you don't exactly have a good trac record of making valid points or knowing what your talking about.
 
i think this quote says it all goodbye
That' not every thing he said. He also said, "Joe Wilson has been totally discredited and was the one who lied. British intelligence has not backed away from their claim that he sought yellow cake in Africa, they have shipment of scap metal with yellow cake from Iraq showing up in Belgium. Hmmmmm seems like actual FACTS don't mean anything to a LLL."
I don't suppose you would like to address any of that would you? It's funny how all you do is post a link to an article post can't seemed to write a paragraph presenting evidence to back up your points. It's also funny that any article someone else posts it "rubbish" but yours aren't.
 
hiphop said:
precisely CBD the whole reason why the area is so fcuked up is cos of america
No, they're fucked up because they're fucked up. Try getting out of the dark ages. To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke they should stop treating their women like dogs and their dogs like lunch. However our interventions do make it worse overall and, more importantly, make the US enemies that we don't need.
 
hiphop said:
i think this quote says it all goodbye

Who are you, the host of the weakest link? What experiences do you have with news organizations and how they work? Let me guess, none. I, on the other hand, have about a decade of experieance at CNN and KNOW how the news business works and how they spin stories and suppress data for their own agenda.

Like I said, facts don't mean **** to liberals.


cdb said:
However our interventions do make it worse overall and, more importantly, make the US enemies that we don't need.
I agree with you in the short term that are interventions do not, in the short term, make the world a safer place. WWII did not make europe a safer place, in fact, it just made different enemies for the cold war. But something has to be done about it, the region seems to be incapable of taking care of their own problems and now they are exporting them. These ME countries were our enemies before the iraqi war and they will be our enemies after it's all over. They view any secular western society as an enemy, it doesn't matter one bit what we do, as long as we are not subject to sharia law we are their enemy and it is their duty to wage jihad against us.
 
where is your proof, you supply no dates thi s could have been in 1991 over a decade ago, Invalid Link Removed so please see this link about iraq not having links with al-queda so that makes that point invalid.

One more thing the 9-11 has some credibility problems. One of the members has a conflict of interest because they were the ones responsible for creating the wall between the FBI and CIA. Also, They have a tape of Bill Clinton admitting that Bin Laden was offered to us but declined to take him but for some reason that was left out of the report.
I'll post your rebuttal for you ...wrong, invalid point , rubbish
 
Jeff said:
I agree with you in the short term that are interventions do not, in the short term, make the world a safer place. WWII did not make europe a safer place, in fact, it just made different enemies for the cold war. But something has to be done about it, the region seems to be incapable of taking care of their own problems and now they are exporting them. These ME countries were our enemies before the iraqi war and they will be our enemies after it's all over. They view any secular western society as an enemy, it doesn't matter one bit what we do, as long as we are not subject to sharia law we are their enemy and it is their duty to wage jihad against us.
Problem is I've met plenty of Middle Easterners who don't think as you suppose they do. They are religious, but like devoted Christians with common sense in the US they want to live their lives according to their rules and are otherwise moderate, socially, politically, etc. Several of them know Middle Easterns of the type you mention, and that person's attitude, when I asked, was almost always the result of some personal loss, like a family member being incinerated by a US bomb or a bomb from a US backed country.

Every country/region has its ignorants and extremists. We are alienating moderates and turning them into extremists, which leaves nothing to build on as there was post WWII Europe. I think our best bet, if we must be involved, is culture war. Western culture will win. All we have to do is airdrop tons upon tons of pornography and bacon on the area. Conflicts would end with a decade.
 
hiphop said:
Invalid Link Removed this invalidates that point

An article written in September 2002 invalidates news segments in July 2004? You believe that? IF so, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you bro :D

hiphop said:
this is irrelevent waffle that is a poor attempt to avoid the point that the US was wrong.

Yup, the UN security resolutions, his financial support of al-Aqsa martyr's brigade/hezbollah suicide bombers, the 2 million dead Iraqi's killed, some with his own WMD's.............

You're right, that hardly justifies it bro.


hiphop said:
this rubbishes that point
Invalid Link Removed this is bush's very own appointed inspector

Right again, David Kay's opinion trumps the 2 million dead Iraqis.

hiphop said:
there goes the
immenent threat

Not that it matters to you but Bush didn't say Soddomizer was an imminent threat. He characterized him as a "growing and gathering threat" See the difference? No, I bet you don't.

hiphop said:
MAAWWAAAHHHAAAA comparing iraq to WW2 hmhmmmm now i know you stupid

You seem to have trouble with English comprehension. I didn’t compare WW2 and Iraq.


Actually, hiphop sound stupid when he say i know you stupid.



I personally have very mixed feelings about this war. There are good reasons for and against it. Some people here have presented a good argument against it, unfortunately you are not one of them.
You avoid any evidence that works against your argument that “The US was wrong�. You childishly insinuate that links you post “rubbish� someone else’s view on the subject, yet any close read of what you post is either outdated or doesn’t address the substance of what is being discussed in multiple cases. This is childish of you.


hiphop said:
ok starting point for american foreign policy credibility revivial "to be honest and fair"
Originally Posted by hiphop

ok starting point for american foreign policy credibility revivial "to be honest and fair"

Since you don't live up to your own standard of discussion, you're a waste of time.
 
No it doesn't and you keep referring back to your if the world shoots it's self in the head so should the united states defense. Just because everybody's doing something doesn't make them right. Along time ago everyone thought the world was flat. By your rationale that automatically makes them correct. I will say again pick up a news paper there are more and more stories about England and our intelligence being correct about Iraq attempting to get nuclear material in Africa.
this is a moronic comparison and only goes to show the intellegence level im dealing with
1.america ignored top security eperts from around the world
2.america ignored the opinion of the international community
3.america ignored the weapons inspectors when they said iraq had no WMD
anyway here are some quesatiosn to whic h i would like you to privde proof to vanilla
1.iraq's links to al-queda
2.iraq's WMD

I agree with you in the short term that are interventions do not, in the short term, make the world a safer place. WWII did not make europe a safer place, in fact, it just made different enemies for the cold war. But something has to be done about it, the region seems to be incapable of taking care of their own problems and now they are exporting them. These ME countries were our enemies before the iraqi war and they will be our enemies after it's all over. They view any secular western society as an enemy, it doesn't matter one bit what we do, as long as we are not subject to sharia law we are their enemy and it is their duty to wage jihad against us.
what do you expect when you have israel dragging america thru the mud and extracting billions of dollars of foreign aid and then using it to steal land from its neighbours.

PC1
An article written in September 2002 invalidates news segments in July 2004? You believe that? IF so, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you bro
thats because that myth was discredited several years ago, if you want to prove me wrong either post a credible link or accept defeat and move on.

Yup, the UN security resolutions, his financial support of al-Aqsa martyr's brigade/hezbollah suicide bombers, the 2 million dead Iraqi's killed, some with his own WMD's.............

You're right, that hardly justifies it bro.
iraq had no ties with terror groups if your going to post ridiculous myths about them then post a link to proove it.

Right again, David Kay's opinion trumps the 2 million dead Iraqis.
see this is what i have to deakl with people just avoiding the fact because they know they are wrong.

the US went to war because iraq was an immenet threat and had WMD, we now know this is wrong.

Not that it matters to you but Bush didn't say Soddomizer was an imminent threat. He characterized him as a "growing and gathering threat" See the difference? No, I bet you don't.
the bush administration were pushing this message from day dot Invalid Link Removed The Bush Administration is now saying it never told the public that Iraq was an "imminent" threat, and therefore it should be absolved for overstating the case for war and misleading the American people about Iraq's WMD.
 
i must say these are great arguments :D i like the way you guys write too sounds so damn edjucated... heres a link that will solve all your anabolic problems :D ... Invalid Link Removed
 
hiphop said:
................
PC1 thats because that myth was discredited several years ago, if you want to prove me wrong either post a credible link or accept defeat and move on.

Not that you'll listen anyway but here are 2:


Invalid Link Removed

The British inquiry said it was generally accepted that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999, and there was intelligence from several sources that the visit was to acquire uranium. "Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible," the report said.

The Senate committee also described various reports about Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from French, British and unidentified foreign governments.



Invalid Link Removed

WASHINGTON — An upcoming report will contain "a good deal of new information" backing up the Bush administration's contention that Saddam Hussein (search) pursued weapons of mass destruction, Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner (search), R-Va., said Tuesday....................Warner said the new information covers "some weapons that predate the first Gulf War that are still around and were used at the time Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Iranians" as well as "remnants of what he was doing himself here in the last several years." He would not elaborate, saying he didn't want to pre-empt the report.
 
hiphop said:
what do you expect when you have israel dragging america thru the mud and extracting billions of dollars of foreign aid and then using it to steal land from its neighbours.

Given the fact the both Egypt and Isreal get practically the same level of foreign aide, what does that have to do with them hating us? Please clarify what you mean when you say "stealing land from its neighbours".

For a true history of the AREA called Palestine go here
Invalid Link Removed
n pre-Biblical times, the area was known as the Land of Canaan and had been a collection of city-states, tributary to the Egyptian Pharoah, as attested to in the Tel-El Amarna tablets. The breakup of the Egyptian empire beginning about 1500 BC made possible the invasion of the Israelites. According to Jewish tradition, twelve tribes entered Canaan from Egypt and conquered it, led by Moses approximately 1240-1200 BC. Historical evidence from the Amarna tablets suggests that there were already 'apiru' (Hebrews) among the Canaanites in the time of Egyptian rule.

During the final years of the Late Bronze Age, the Philistines also invaded Canaan (1500 - 1200 BC). Other evidence suggests that around 1200 BC, semi-nomads from the desert fringes to the east, joined by elements from Anatolia, the Aegean, and the south, possibly including Egypt, began to settle in the hill country of Canaan. A large proportion - probably a majority of this population - were refugees from the Canaanite city states, destroyed by the Egyptians in one of their periodic invasions.

The Biblical account continues with the rise of an Israelite kingdom, first under Saul and then under David at about 1000 BC, the date of David's conquest of Jerusalem.

also

Arabs began a series of conquests in the 7th century AD under the leadership of the Prophet Muhammad during the rise of Islam. Muhammad was born in Makkah (Mecca) in the western part of the Arabian Peninsula, a city on the trade routes connecting Yemen to the south, the Mediterranean to the north, the Persian Gulf to the east, and Africa through the Red Sea port of Jeddah to the west. Muhammad delivered a spiritual and social message based on the unity and oneness of God, derived from Jewish and Christian concepts already well established in Arabia. In 622, Muhammad founded the first Muslim community in Medina. His immensely popular message confronted the weakness of the Byzantine and Sasanian empires and led to the success of a series of dramatic conquests. Within 20 years of Muhammad’s death in 632, Muslim Arabs ruled a territory extending from Egypt deep into Iran.

Palestine was invaded by Muslim Arab armies during this period, capped by the capture of Jerusalem in 638 AD. The invasion was bloody for the long-established Christian and Jewish inhabitants and the countryside was devastated. This was the start of 1300 years of Muslim presence in what the Arabs called Filastin, an Arabic rendition of the name Palaestina assigned by the Romans. Mohammed originally designated that his followers must face Jerusalem when praying, a gesture designed to win support from Arabian Jews. Later, Muslims switched to praying toward Mecca, and the Koran does not mention Jerusalem. In 715 AD, the site from which the prophet was believed to have ascended to Heaven on a night journey was arbitrarily associated with Jerusalem where the Dome of the Rock had been built in 687 AD by Caliph Abd al-Malik. Based on this association, the Al-Aqsa Mosque was built at the same site and the city became, after Makkah and Medina, the third holiest city of Islam. See the topic on Jerusalem for more information.

The Muslim Arabs ruled Palestine under the system of dhimmitude, the rules that apply to non-Muslim populations conquered by jihad. There is a myth that the time of Islamic rule was a "golden age" for Jews and that they were better treated by the Muslims than by the Christians. This myth has been shattered by scholarship that shows continuous persecution of Jews and Christians under Islamic rule.

Hmmm Jews in Palestine in 1200BC, Islam in 600AD. You were saying something about stealing land?
 

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hiphop said:
what do you expect when you have israel dragging america thru the mud and extracting billions of dollars of foreign aid and then using it to steal land from its neighbours.
That is quite possibly the most ignoramous comment I have ever read. Anyone that knows anything about the history of that region knows that Israel has always fought all of its wars in defense. If it truly wanted to "steal land from its neighbors", it would already own the entire region. And Jeff is right, the amount of foreign aid received by Israel is on par with other nations its size.

Of what ethnicity are you, hiphop?
 
this is a moronic comparison and only goes to show the intellegence level im dealing with
1.america ignored top security eperts from around the world
The only security experts that should be making decisions about American security is American experts.
2.america ignored the opinion of the international community
If America feels that there is a threat to us we have a right to act on it. I would rather attack someone and be wrong than not attack and be right just because a bunch of bureaucratic socials say so.
3.america ignored the weapons inspectors when they said iraq had no WMD
anyway here are some quesatiosn to whic h i would like you to privde proof to vanilla
1.iraq's links to al-queda
2.iraq's WMD
I have already posted the answers to your first question many times and me and many others have posted the answers to your second question. Seeing that you don't answer anyone's questions, you a hardly in a position to ask or demand any one to answer yours. If you would like to start why don't you comment on what Jeff had to say which you ignored. Here it is....
"Joe Wilson has been totally discredited and was the one who lied. British intelligence has not backed away from their claim that he sought yellow cake in Africa, they have shipment of scap metal with yellow cake from Iraq showing up in Belgium. Hmmmmm seems like actual FACTS don't mean anything to a LLL."
You can also start answering a few of mine that you ignored.
Another point which you keep ignoring is this one. Iraq was in violation of UN's own resolutions for years, yet they did NOTHING ABOUT IT. Sadam continually played games with the inspectors and finally kicked them out of the country. They still did nothing about it. The UN along with Russia , France, and Germany was getting paid off by Sadam which explains why they did nothing about him. There would be no war in Iraq today if the UN did it's job. So your beloved UN has some major corruption and credibility problems. There are several books about the subject to come out in the last year. All of this and you think the UN would quickly act if there was a major threat to America? Who is the one making moronic statements?
The real question is does America have the right to protect it's self without asking permission? The answer is yes.
 
hiphop wrote
what do you expect when you have israel dragging america thru the mud and extracting billions of dollars of foreign aid and then using it to steal land from its neighbours.

the usual wrote
That is quite possibly the most ignoramous comment I have ever read. Anyone that knows anything about the history of that region knows that Israel has always fought all of its wars in defense. If it truly wanted to "steal land from its neighbors", it would already own the entire region. And Jeff is right, the amount of foreign aid received by Israel is on par with other nations its size.

Of what ethnicity are you, hiphop?

1. what does the amount of foreign aid have to do with anything ?
2.israel is the most destablising situation bar iraq in the world
3.israel and american foreign policy are the reasons why the world is in danger from terrorists
4.you didnt respond to my point about america being dragged thru the mud, the latest UN ruling proves this.

the UN ruled 150 - 6 that the wall must be teared down at once, with 10 abstainees and

vanilla wrote
The only security experts that should be making decisions about American security is American experts.
1.like richard clarke 30 years as a top security terrorist expert totally ignored and sidelined,
2.the worlds leading security experts and counter terrorism units ignored
3.the entire worlds opinions ignored
and yet the white house listens to one security guy and base the entire ideology on him.
that kinda of logic is flawed and wrong and no other country in the world even stoops that low.

I have already posted the answers to your first question many times and me and many others have posted the answers to your second question. Seeing that you don't answer anyone's questions, you a hardly in a position to ask or demand any one to answer yours. If you would like to start why don't you comment on what Jeff had to say which you ignored. Here it is....
i asked you to provide proof of your claims about iraq links with al-queda and iraq posessing WMD you have done neither. instead try to subvert the question with miniscule stories about small amounts of radioactive material found here and there.


The real question is does America have the right to protect it's self without asking permission? The answer is yes
this applies both ways

1.dont palestinians living under american and israeli repression have a right to defend themselves
2.dont iraqi's that are being illegally invaded have a right to defend themselves and prevent the illegal invaders from stealing there oil.
3.dont

You can also start answering a few of mine that you ignored.
Another point which you keep ignoring is this one. Iraq was in violation of UN's own resolutions for years, yet they did NOTHING ABOUT IT. Sadam continually played games with the inspectors and finally kicked them out of the country. They still did nothing about it. The UN along with Russia , France, and Germany was getting paid off by Sadam which explains why they did nothing about him. There would be no war in Iraq today if the UN did it's job. So your beloved UN has some major corruption and credibility problems. There are several books about the subject to come out in the last year. All of this and you think the UN would quickly act if there was a major threat to America? Who is the one making moronic statements?
Here is a list of UN resolutions violted by israel

Invalid Link Removed make sure you read this bit too
"There is another major area, largely ignored, that at some point must be faced. It involves the serious distortion of the official Security Council record by the profligate use by the United States of its veto power. In 29 separate cases between 1972 and 1991, the United States has vetoed resolutions critical of Israel. Except for the U.S. veto, these resolutions would have passed and the total number of resolutions against Israel would now equal 95 instead of 66. " so who is fcuking with the UN now.

anyway this is going nowhere i have used facts and evidence to back up my points and you lot have prooved nothing.

if you want me to awnser a question just place it simply like this
1.where are the WMD
2.we know there are no WMD and iraq wasnt an immenent threat
3.there are no links with terrorist organisations
4.what justification does america have for war now ??
 
hiphop said:
1. what does the amount of foreign aid have to do with anything ?
2.israel is the most destablising situation bar iraq in the world
3.israel and american foreign policy are the reasons why the world is in danger from terrorists
4.you didnt respond to my point about america being dragged thru the mud, the latest UN ruling proves this.

the UN ruled 150 - 6 that the wall must be teared down at once, with 10 abstainees and

1. Your were the one who brough up foreign aid to isreal being a problem not me.
2 and 3. No the world is in danger from terrorism because a religeon is being hijacked by a bunch of fucked up fanatics.
4. How does the UN resolution prove that 'America' is being dragged through the mud? Isreal has a right to protect their citizens, maybe if the pali's didn't blow people up on buses ,pizza parlors, shopping malls, and shoot unarmed pregnant women and children in cold blood there would be no wall. How dare they put up a wall :think:

Oh yeah, you might not want to use richard clark in your arguments for WMD in iraq because if you read his report, he states that Saddam had them shipped to Syria right before the US moved in, oh right you haven't read the whole report just what the bbc tells you ;)

Oh yeah, almost forgot. I like how you didn't adrress my stealing land comment. :run:
 
Here is a list of UN resolutions violted by israel
Invalid Link Removed make sure you read this bit too
"There is another major area, largely ignored, that at some point must be faced. It involves the serious distortion of the official Security Council record by the profligate use by the United States of its veto power. In 29 separate cases between 1972 and 1991, the United States has vetoed resolutions critical of Israel. Except for the U.S. veto, these resolutions would have passed and the total number of resolutions against Israel would now equal 95 instead of 66. " so who is fcuking with the UN now.

anyway this is going nowhere i have used facts and evidence to back up my points and you lot have prooved nothing.
What does this have to do with the UN not efforcing it's own violations in Iraq? Nice Dodge by the way
 
this applies both ways
1.dont palestinians living under american and israeli repression have a right to defend themselves
2.dont iraqi's that are being illegally invaded have a right to defend themselves and prevent the illegal invaders from stealing there oil.
3.dont
Once again you show how that you don't know what your talking about. How much oil have we taken from Iraq?
 
Another history lesson.

As a result of the Six Day War, Israel gained all of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Sinai, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank (historically known as Judea and Samaria). Palestinian Arabs often insist on using the term "occupied territories" to describe these areas, usually connected to the assertion that they fall under the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention. Yet, Palestinian spokesmen also speak about Israeli military action in Area A as an invasion, an infringement on Palestinian sovereignty. The use of both forms of terminology is a contradiction. If Israel "invaded Palestinian territories" in the present, then they cannot be regarded as "occupied"; however, if the territories are defined as "occupied," Israel cannot be "invading" them.

Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention:

* ... is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign.

In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states.

International jurists generally draw a distinction between situations of "aggressive conquest" and territorial disputes that arise after a war of self-defense. Former US State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel's case:

* Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.

Israel only entered the West Bank in 1967 after repeated Jordanian artillery fire and ground movements across the previous armistice lines; additionally, Iraqi forces crossed Jordanian territory and were poised to enter the West Bank. Under such circumstances, even the United Nations rejected Soviet efforts to have Israel branded as the aggressor in the Six-Day War.

Regardless of how many times the Palestinian Arabs claim otherwise, Israel cannot be characterized as a "foreign occupier" with respect to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Fundamental sources of international legality decide the question in Israel's favor. The last international legal allocation of territory that includes what is today the West Bank and Gaza Strip occurred with the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine which recognized Jewish national rights in the whole of the Mandated territory, including the sector east of the Jordan River, almost 80% of the original Mandated territory, that was given to Palestinian Arabs and Emir Abdullah to create the country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). Moreover, the rights under the Mandate were preserved under the United Nations as well, according to Article 80 of the UN Charter, after the termination of the League of Nations in 1946.

It is important to observe that, from the time these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel in 1967, the territories were not refered to as "occupied" by the international community. Furthermore, the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called "Palestinians" as they are today; they were called Jordanians and Egyptians. (In fact, before Israel was founded Jews and Arabs alike who lived in the region were called Palestinians. The newspaper was the "Palestine Bulletin" and later the "Palestine Post" before becoming today's "Jerusalem Post", the Jewish-founded electric company was "Palestine Electric" and so on.) There was no call for "liberation" or "national rights" for the Arabs living there and no Palestinian nation was discussed.

No UN resolution requires Israel to withdraw unilaterally from the territories, nor do they forbid Israelis from going there to live. In particular, the often-misquoted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (and related Resolution 338) make no such demand or requirement. The demand that Israel stop creating "illegal settlements" is similarly baseless.

Under the Oslo Accords, the "peace process" started in 1991 at the Madrid Conference, Israel agreed to withdraw from the disputed territories and Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) was given control over land chosen so that more than ninety-nine percent of the Palestinian population lived under the jurisdiction of the PA. But the committment to Israel's security that was the backbone of the Oslo agreements was never honored by the PA
and Israel was forced to periodically re-enter the ceded territory to quell terrorism. In 2000, Yasser Arafat rejected sweeping concessions by Israel at Camp David -- promoted by US Pres. Clinton in an attempt to reach a final peace agreement -- and the Palestinian Arabs turned again to violence with the Al Aqsa Intifada. That is, after the PA was governing nearly all Palestinian Arabs and a generous peace offer with international backing was on the table, the only response Israel got was increased violence. This is the sole reason Isreal continues to have a military presence in the disputed territories.

Hmmmmmm, the only problem the 'palesinians' have is their own leadership
 
hiphop said:
................4.what justification does america have for war now ??

Since you ignore everyone's posts when they produce evidence that goes against your argument, I'll answer you in the simplest terms that you seem to understand............

Answer: The US wanted to.

:D
 
PC1 said:
Since you ignore everyone's posts when they produce evidence that goes against your argument, I'll answer you in the simplest terms that you seem to understand............

Answer: The US wanted to.

:D

:rofl:
 
1.like richard clarke 30 years as a top security terrorist expert totally ignored and sidelined,
Clark was a Clinton hold over and the Clinton administration stated several times it thought Iraq had WMDs.He and his book a some what contriversial. Also he admitted at the hearings that even if his recomendations were implemented that it wouldn't have prevented the 9-11 attacks.
2.the worlds leading security experts and counter terrorism units ignored
3.the entire worlds opinions ignored
and yet the white house listens to one security guy and base the entire ideology on him.
that kinda of logic is flawed and wrong and no other country in the world even stoops that low.
When all else fails revert to the everybody is doing it defense hiphop? The decision to go into Iraq was not based on "one security guy ". It was based on several advisors and the CIA. Thank you for showing once again you don't know anything. Once again it boils down to if the UN should bend over and grab it's ankles for a totally corrupt organization that can't enforce it's own resolutions. The answer is.........no!!!!!
 
Jeff said:
1. Your were the one who brough up foreign aid to isreal being a problem not me.
2 and 3. No the world is in danger from terrorism because a religeon is being hijacked by a bunch of fucked up fanatics.
so need to come up with a batter awnser than that bro come on everyones knows that american and israeli policy towards arabs is the main cause of terrorism in the world.

4. How does the UN resolution prove that 'America' is being dragged through the mud? Isreal has a right to protect their citizens, maybe if the pali's didn't blow people up on buses ,pizza parlors, shopping malls, and shoot unarmed pregnant women and children in cold blood there would be no wall. How dare they put up a wall :think:
1.who is going to have to pay for the dismantling of the wall to the 1967 borders america.
2.why didnt israel build the wall a few meters back and in turn show
a.its taking pro-active steps towards peace,
b.help to speed up the peace process and
c.avoid worldwide condemnation for inciting the palestinians and causing them uneseceasry hard ship.

Oh yeah, you might not want to use richard clark in your arguments for WMD in iraq because if you read his report, he states that Saddam had them shipped to Syria right before the US moved in, oh right you haven't read the whole report just what the bbc tells you ;)

Hmmm Jews in Palestine in 1200BC, Islam in 600AD. You were saying something about stealing land?
Oh yeah, almost forgot. I like how you didn't adrress my stealing land comment. :run:[/QUOTE]your not being realistic in the past 1000 years it has been occupied by arabs, do the red indians have a claim on america ?? onbivously not so neither does israel.

so if you could awnser the questions for me please
1.is the wall causing uncessary hardhsip and delaying the peace process
2.who is going to have to pay for the dismantling of the wall america true or flase
3.does iraq have WMD
 
i asked you to provide proof of your claims about iraq links with al-queda and iraq posessing WMD you have done neither. instead try to subvert the question with miniscule stories about small amounts of radioactive material found here and there."
Go back and read the story it wasn't a small amount. Let me ask you again what you chose not to answer before. Try to think for a minute I know it's hard for you. Would a terrorist hit America with a dirty bomb or launch a missile from another country?

if you want me to awnser a question just place it simply like this
1.where are the WMD
Here are two that PC1 posted that you ignored.
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

Here is another one but hasn't been verified yet. Well prob. know how accurate it is in a few hours

Invalid Link Removed

You also still haven't commented on Jeff's point that you have been asked to comment on at least three times. Here they are again "Joe Wilson has been totally discredited and was the one who lied. British intelligence has not backed away from their claim that he sought yellow cake in Africa, they have shipment of scap metal with yellow cake from Iraq showing up in Belgium."
2.we know there are no WMD and iraq wasnt an immenent threat
The two stories posted invalidates your points.lol
3.there are no links with terrorist organisations
I have asked you to provide evidence that the Newsweek article and the Czechs are wrong which you have not done. Go to your library and read the Newsweek article. Until you read it don't bring it up again. I guess you must be in some sort of military intelligence field because you know more than Czech government who to this day stand by their findings.
4.what justification does america have for war now ??
Well if we pull out the whole place will fall apart. Seeing how you are so concerned about the people of Iraq I am sure you wouldn't want that.
 
so if you could awnser the questions for me please
1.is the wall causing uncessary hardhsip and delaying the peace process
2.who is going to have to pay for the dismantling of the wall america true or flase
3.does iraq have WMD
Why don't you start answering questions?
 
hiphop said:
so need to come up with a batter awnser than that bro come on everyones knows that american and israeli policy towards arabs is the main cause of terrorism in the world.

Yeah because the people who commit the violence say so :think:. You want documented proof for every statement in this thread and then you thow out a nonchalant statement like 'everyone knows....'

hiphop said:
1.who is going to have to pay for the dismantling of the wall to the 1967 borders america.
2.why didnt israel build the wall a few meters back and in turn show
a.its taking pro-active steps towards peace,
b.help to speed up the peace process and
c.avoid worldwide condemnation for inciting the palestinians and causing them uneseceasry hard ship.

Oh yeah, you might not want to use richard clark in your arguments for WMD in iraq because if you read his report, he states that Saddam had them shipped to Syria right before the US moved in, oh right you haven't read the whole report just what the bbc tells you ;)

Hmmm Jews in Palestine in 1200BC, Islam in 600AD. You were saying something about stealing land?
Oh yeah, almost forgot. I like how you didn't adrress my stealing land comment. :run:
your not being realistic in the past 1000 years it has been occupied by arabs, do the red indians have a claim on america ?? onbivously not so neither does israel.

so if you could awnser the questions for me please
1.is the wall causing uncessary hardhsip and delaying the peace process
2.who is going to have to pay for the dismantling of the wall america true or flase
3.does iraq have WMD


1. No the wall does not cause unecessary hardship for the palestinieans, the only thing delaying the peace process is Arafat and a currupt PA. re-read the post
In 2000, Yasser Arafat rejected sweeping concessions by Israel at Camp David -- promoted by US Pres. Clinton in an attempt to reach a final peace agreement -- and the Palestinian Arabs turned again to violence with the Al Aqsa Intifada. That is, after the PA was governing nearly all Palestinian Arabs and a generous peace offer with international backing was on the table, the only response Israel got was increased violence. This is the sole reason Isreal continues to have a military presence in the disputed territories.

2. Who says that once the wall goes up, that it has to come down? Lets get this straight, europeans concur land and you say that 'red indians' have no right of return. Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq start a war in 1967, lose, and Isreal has to give them back the territory they stole from the origional British Madate? I don't follow your logic.

3. Lets see, we have found missles with both sarin and mustard gas, you tell me.

Oh yeah, they're not 'red indians' they're native americans. :)
 
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do the red indians have a claim on america ?? onbivously not so neither does israel.
They do and the American government has given them land/ casinos for the way they were treated in the early history of the country. There is another strike against you.
 
so if you could awnser the questions for me please
1.iraq had no WMD
2.iraq wasnt an imment threat
3.iraq had no links with terrorist organisations

what is your justifcation for war ?
 
hiphop said:
so if you could awnser the questions for me please
1.iraq had no WMD
2.iraq wasnt an imment threat
3.iraq had no links with terrorist organisations

what is your justifcation for war ?

What do you need to re read the entire thread? Now your just trolling, I was really hoping you would reply to my statements without your standard 3 questions that have already been answered.

The only justification for war was that saddam did not abide by resolution 1441, period! No further justification needed!

USAToday article says it better than I can
First, Saddam had used WMD — against Iran in the mid-1980s, and he later used them against his own people, killing more than 5,000 civilians in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja in March 1988.

Second, Saddam had possessed WMD, as he acknowledged to the United Nations after his ouster from Kuwait in February 1991. Moreover, until at least the early 1990s, U.S., British, French, German and Israeli intelligence agencies had underestimated his biological and nuclear programs. And all of them — along with the Clinton administration, the U.N. and both supporters and opponents of last year's war — assumed Saddam still had substantial quantities of WMD.

Third, Saddam had maintained the capability to produce WMD. In 1991, the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM) discovered that Iraq possessed a workable design for an implosion-type nuclear weapon though not yet the necessary fissile material. If the material could be obtained elsewhere — from Russia, Pakistan or North Korea — Iraq was believed able to produce a bomb within a year. Iraq retained facilities as well as teams of scientists and engineers. And during the past year, the Iraq Survey Group, the U.S. inspection team, discovered a program to develop long-range missiles. The overall evidence led the team's head, David Kay, to say "Iraq was in clear violation" of a U.N. resolution demanding full accounting of WMD.

Fourth, Saddam had the intent. After the withdrawal of U.N. inspectors in 1998 and the erosion of international support for sanctions, Saddam counted on being free sooner or later to fully resume oil sales and rebuild his weapons. He continued to menace his neighbors, brutalize his people and cooperate with terrorist groups. He told Arab journalists in late 2002 that he was playing for time in the face of renewed American and coalition pressure

and again
The other pronouncement is contained in a Justice Department indictment on Nov. 4, 1998, charging bin Laden with murder in the bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa.
The indictment disclosed a close relationship between al Qaeda and Saddam's regime, which included specialists on chemical weapons and all types of bombs, including truck bombs, a favorite weapon of terrorists.
The 1998 indictment said: "Al Qaeda also forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezbollah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States. In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq."
Shortly after the embassy bombings, Mr. Clinton ordered air strikes on al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and on the Shifa pharmaceutical factory in Sudan.
To justify the Sudanese plant as a target, Clinton aides said it was involved in the production of deadly VX nerve gas. Officials further determined that bin Laden owned a stake in the operation and that its manager had traveled to Baghdad to learn bomb-making techniques from Saddam's weapons scientists.
Mr. Cohen elaborated in March in testimony before the September 11 commission.
He testified that "bin Laden had been living [at the plant], that he had, in fact, money that he had put into this military industrial corporation, that the owner of the plant had traveled to Baghdad to meet with the father of the VX program."

how about another one
Invalid Link Removed
The book quotes a "well-placed" intelligence source saying: "Bin Laden was receiving training on bomb making from the IIS's [Iraqi Intelligence Service's] principal technical expert on making sophisticated explosives, Brigadier Salim al Ahmed. Brigadier Salim was observed at bin Laden's farm in Khartoum in Sep-Oct 1995 and again in July 1996, in the company of the director of Iraqi Intelligence Mani-abd-al-Rashid-al-Tikriti [to discuss] bin Laden's request for IIS technical assistance" in making bombs.

Hayes quotes another "regular and reliable" intelligence source who said that bin Laden's top deputy Ayman al Zawahiri "visited Baghdad and met with the Iraqi vice-president on 3 February 1998. The goal of the visit was to arrange for co-ordination between Iraq and bin Laden and establish camps in al-Falluja, an-Nasiriya and Iraqi Kurdistan under the leadership of Abdul Aziz." Hayes says that visit coincided with a $300,000 payment from Iraqi intelligence to Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic jihad, which merged with al-Qa'eda.

Recently, yet more evidence has emerged. The Wall Street Journal reported that captured documents listed one Ahmed Hikmat Shakir as a senior officer in the elite paramilitary Saddam Fedayeen. By an amazing coincidence, an Ahmed Hikmat Shakir was present at the January 2000 al-Qa'eda "summit" in Kuala Lumpur at which the September 11 attacks were planned.

In case you missed it

The only justification for war was that saddam did not abide by resolution 1441, period! No further justification needed!
 
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It is becoming clear that hiphop will ignore any points made against him. Personally if I were you guys I would just stop posting, it is clear you won the argument hands down (I am/was somewhat anti-war against Iraq and I am a democrat so I think it is safe for me to say that).
 
so if you could awnser the questions for me please
1.iraq had no WMD
2.iraq wasnt an imment threat
3.iraq had no links with terrorist organisations

what is your justifcation for war ?
Are you insane? Seriously I am not kidding. I just answered all of those in my last post and you totally ignored it and failed to answer any questions I asked you to answer.
Quote:
i asked you to provide proof of your claims about iraq links with al-queda and iraq posessing WMD you have done neither. instead try to subvert the question with miniscule stories about small amounts of radioactive material found here and there."

Go back and read the story it wasn't a small amount. Let me ask you again what you chose not to answer before. Try to think for a minute I know it's hard for you. Would a terrorist hit America with a dirty bomb or launch a missile from another country?

Quote:
if you want me to awnser a question just place it simply like this
1.where are the WMD

Here are two that PC1 posted that you ignored.
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

Here is another one but hasn't been verified yet. Well prob. know how accurate it is in a few hours

Invalid Link Removed

You also still haven't commented on Jeff's point that you have been asked to comment on at least three times. Here they are again "Joe Wilson has been totally discredited and was the one who lied. British intelligence has not backed away from their claim that he sought yellow cake in Africa, they have shipment of scap metal with yellow cake from Iraq showing up in Belgium."
Quote:
2.we know there are no WMD and iraq wasnt an immenent threat

The two stories posted invalidates your points.lol
Quote:
3.there are no links with terrorist organisations

I have asked you to provide evidence that the Newsweek article and the Czechs are wrong which you have not done. Go to your library and read the Newsweek article. Until you read it don't bring it up again. I guess you must be in some sort of military intelligence field because you know more than Czech government who to this day stand by their findings.
Quote:
4.what justification does america have for war now ??

Well if we pull out the whole place will fall apart. Seeing how you are so concerned about the people of Iraq I am sure you wouldn't want that.
 
4.what justification does america have for war now ??
Well if we pull out the whole place will fall apart. Seeing how you are so concerned about the people of Iraq I am sure you wouldn't want that.

this isnt an awnser to the above question vanilla

4.what justification does america have for war now ??
 
hiphop said:
Well if we pull out the whole place will fall apart. Seeing how you are so concerned about the people of Iraq I am sure you wouldn't want that.

this isnt an awnser to the above question vanilla

4.what justification does america have for war now ??
This has already been addressed numerous times in the posts above. Try actually reading what the others are saying instead of dogmatically sticking to "your" beliefs (I say that with hesitation because it seems you are simply repeating propaganda you have heard or read). Here is one of the many responses:

Jeff said:
The only justification for war was that saddam did not abide by resolution 1441, period! No further justification needed!
 
Originally Posted by hiphop
so if you could awnser the questions for me please
1.iraq had no WMD
2.iraq wasnt an imment threat
3.iraq had no links with terrorist organisations

what is your justifcation for war ?

The only justification for war was that saddam did not abide by resolution 1441, period! No further justification needed!

so could you awnser this for me please
1.why did it take 10 odd years for you to attack to him
2.why was the lie about WMD used
3.why is his human rights record being used as a reason for attacking him ?
 
hiphop said:
[/i]

so could you awnser this for me please
1.why did it take 10 odd years for you to attack to him
2.why was the lie about WMD used
3.why is his human rights record being used as a reason for attacking him ?
1. I personally think this actually supports America's stance. They waited... and waited.... and waited... and still Saddam stonewalled and played games with the UN. So America tried all the channels possible, many times, but they failed and thus FINALLY did we attack. It's funny because looking back on it I remember how much flak Bush caught for being so slow to move.

2. I don't believe anyone has proved it was a "lie". Even if no WMD are ever found in Iraq, that is not to say there wasn't suspicion of at least development. Remember how limited our intelligence was due to their lack of cooperation with inspectors? So perhaps they made decisions based on faulty intelligence... this is FAR different then "using lies". And given the high stakes, do you really blame them for not giving Saddam the benfit of the doubt? Hindsight is 20/20.

3. It was never used officially as a reason. Period. It WAS a reason for many sanctions and embargoes, just as we did the same for China, North Korea, etc. when they violated human rights, but it was never a prime reason for the war. The war was over Iraq's growing threat to American security.
 
this isnt an awnser to the above question vanilla
Can you point out the last question that you answered please?

4.what justification does america have for war now ??
Lets see here is one
Iraq was in violation of UN's own resolutions for years, yet they did NOTHING ABOUT IT. Sadam continually played games with the inspectors and finally kicked them out of the country. They still did nothing about it. The UN along with Russia , France, and Germany was getting paid off by Sadam which explains why they did nothing about him. There would be no war in Iraq today if the UN did it's job. So your beloved UN has some major corruption and credibility problems. There are several books about the subject to come out in the last year. All of this and you think the UN would quickly act if there was a major threat to America? Who is the one making moronic statements?
 
Is there any point of trying to debate with Hiphop any more? He doesn't answer any questions, doesn't read what anyone else writes, and just keeps asking the same 4 questions over and over again and ignores the answers.
 
1. I personally think this actually supports America's stance. They waited... and waited.... and waited... and still Saddam stonewalled and played games with the UN. So America tried all the channels possible, many times, but they failed and thus FINALLY did we attack. It's funny because looking back on it I remember how much flak Bush caught for being so slow to move.
if they used a un resolution as the excuse to attack then why didnt they get another resolution based on the previous one ? they had waited 10 years since the last resolution passed on him to bring the next resolution up again so i think that your idea of they used every means possible doesnt quite hold up.

2. I don't believe anyone has proved it was a "lie". Even if no WMD are ever found in Iraq, that is not to say there wasn't suspicion of at least development. Remember how limited our intelligence was due to their lack of cooperation with inspectors? So perhaps they made decisions based on faulty intelligence... this is FAR different then "using lies". And given the high stakes, do you really blame them for not giving Saddam the benfit of the doubt? Hindsight is 20/20.
i think when the bush+blair administration starts admiting they got it wrong on iraq's WMD thats when you know its safe to say he doesnt have any. the coalition was syaing he is an immenent threat due to his WMD and he could launch them in 45 mins etc.and that was the reason why they had to go to war now.

but it still doesnt make it clear
1.saddam was a imment threat which is why we have to take him out now because he can launch his WMD in 45 mins etc. despite claims from bush admin in 2001 that the sanctions had crippled iraq.
2.it turned out saddam had no WMD
3.so who is to blame for this disaster ??

ok heres the bottom line
1.the bush+blair adminsitration misled the world
2.intellegence failiures beyond comprehension
3.thousands of innocent people lost there lives because of this
and no one is to blame ??

3. It was never used officially as a reason. Period. It WAS a reason for many sanctions and embargoes, just as we did the same for China, North Korea, etc. when they violated human rights, but it was never a prime reason for the war. The war was over Iraq's growing threat to American security.
well this is an itneresting point and i think we could go on for days about this but im going to stick to the things we do know for the time about his lack of WMD resolution 1441 etc. but yes my above questions are the latest ones thank you.
 
Hiphop,

Let's assume for a moment that what the Bush administration SAYS is the plan actually happens:

1. During the next 6-12 months, coalition forces working with the Iraqi security forces are able to clean up the remaining pockets of resistance and foreign terrorists now fighting in Iraq;

2. Democratic elections are held sometime during 2005 and the Iraqis are able to choose their own leaders going forward;

3. Within a period of, I don't know, say 3-5 years lets say, overall stability and prosperity are achieved, Iraqis are enjoying freedom and a better standard of living, and most/all of the coalition forces have left the country.

Whether or not you think right now that is going to happen, put any doubts aside for just 1 minute, ok?

If this turns out as planned, will you still be carrying on about how wrong the US was, and how the war wasn't justified because intelligence overestimated Saddam's progress in redeveloping WMD's?
 
if they used a un resolution as the excuse to attack then why didnt they get another resolution based on the previous one ? they had waited 10 years since the last resolution passed on him to bring the next resolution up again so i think that your idea of they used every means possible doesnt quite hold up.
After he ignored that resolution why don't we get another one on that one too? The plain and simple fact is the UNITED NATIONS DID NOTHING TO BACK UP IT'S OWN RESOLUTIONS THAT SADAM WAS IN VIOLATION OF FOR YEARS. Then after we believed Iraq was a threat to us, they decide to start the inspections again? Sorry too late. WE WOULD NOT BE IN IRAQ IF THE UN DID IT'S JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE.
but it still doesnt make it clear
1.saddam was a imment threat which is why we have to take him out now because he can launch his WMD in 45 mins etc. despite claims from bush admin in 2001 that the sanctions had crippled iraq.
The Clinton administration said several times that it believed Iraq had WMDs. An Iraqi general that defected in the mid 90's told us that Sadam had WMD's. You obviously don't know what a WMD is by your statement. A WMD could be a suitecase nuke, anthrax, or someone injected with the Ebola virus. It doesn't have to be something that's launched.
ok heres the bottom line
1.the bush+blair adminsitration misled the world
2.intellegence failiures beyond comprehension
3.thousands of innocent people lost there lives because of this
and no one is to blame ??
Here is the bottom line you don't read anything or answer questions. All you do is repeat the same four things over and over again. All you points have been refuted in one way or another but you just ignore any point anyone makes and go back to asking your same 4 questions. Go drink the kool aid.
2.it turned out saddam had no WMD
No it didn't. We don't know. Can you prove that he didn't have WMDs? You cited Richard Clark but he said that they were moved to Syria. You also ignored and continue to ignore the two stories PC1 posted and you refused to address the point Jeff made.
3.so who is to blame for this disaster ??
The UN is to blame because they refused to enforce their own resolutions wile getting paid off by Sadam.
 
If this turns out as planned, will you still be carrying on about how wrong the US was, and how the war wasn't justified because intelligence overestimated Saddam's progress in redeveloping WMD's?
yes i personally was for getting rid of saddam just not for the reasons that the US were, if the US had the best interests of the world at heart rather than its own. it could have gathered so much pressure on iraq that saddam probably would have left the country.
1.what right do the US have to be going around and imposing there values on other countries ?
2.who is to blame for this disterous performance about WMD and immenent threat
3.what kind of safe guards have been put in place to prevent this dangerous situation happening again.

or someone injected with the Ebola virus
yeah saddam had someone iinject them selves with ebola thats the immenet threat the US were facing and thats why they went to war you are only foolin yourself vanilla and makin yourself look stupid when you make statements like this

WE WOULD NOT BE IN IRAQ IF THE UN DID IT'S JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE.
they also wouldnt be in iraq of america was nt so egocentric

Here is the bottom line you don't read anything or answer questions. All you do is repeat the same four things over and over again. All you points have been refuted in one way or another but you just ignore any point anyone makes and go back to asking your same 4 questions. Go drink the kool aid
i repeat them because no one awners them.

No it didn't. We don't know. Can you prove that he didn't have WMDs? You cited Richard Clark but he said that they were moved to Syria. You also ignored and continue to ignore the two stories PC1 posted and you refused to address the point Jeff made.
richard clarek is a counter terrorism expert not a WMD expert, im not getting involved in stupid arguments about where saddams WMD have gone that he never had. the bottom line is these invisible WMD are going to have gone to whichever country is next on the US hitlist.
 
hiphop said:
yes i personally was for getting rid of saddam just not for the reasons that the US were, if the US had the best interests of the world at heart rather than its own. it could have gathered so much pressure on iraq that saddam probably would have left the country.


Thank you for this. I appreciate your honesty here.

This marks some real progress in this discussion.

:)

However I disagree with the idea that Saddam would ever have given up control of Iraq voluntarily. Remember that he already was isolated as a result of the embargo. And despite his unpopularity among most Iraqis, and his distrust among most arab countries, he maintained his grip on power and control of the country's resources. If covert actions were unsuccessful, and the embargo was only hurting Iraqi citizens while Saddam didn't seem to give a damn, and that Saddam was in at least some ways subverting the embargo with France and Russia, I don't know what else anyone could do to bring more pressure against him? What else could have been done?

Insofar as failures of intelligence go and the premise(s) by which the US invaded Iraq, I think the one thing anyone has to admire is the freedom of the press here in the US (and in England). Look at the level of public scrutiny the two governments are now receiving as a result of the invasion. Even if in the end you feel the war was unjustified or not worth the cost in lives and dollars, we would be hard pressed to justify an invasion of Iran or North Korea right now, just as examples, without being in possession of air-tight iron-clad intelligence that they posed a credible threat.
 
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i think the entire world wanted to get rid of saddam for his human rights record, but they wanted to do it the proper way.

Insofar as failures of intelligence go and the premise(s) by which the US invaded Iraq, I think the one thing anyone has to admire is the freedom of the press here in the US (and in England). Look at the level of public scrutiny the two governments are now receiving as a result of the invasion. Even if in the end you feel the war was unjustified or not worth the cost in lives and dollars, we would be hard pressed to justify an invasion of Iran or North Korea right now, just as examples, without being in possession of air-tight iron-clad intelligence that they posed a credible threat.
that still doesnt address the main problem, theroteically america could take over the world on pre-emption. we have laws and organisations for dealing with problems to prevent war and to prevent chaos and countries taking over other countries under false pretenses. What happens if n.korea decide to attack s.korea because they pose a immenet threat we have a war there it doesnt work like that the claim of we have freedom of speech for a 1st world country is a poor excuse for the horrendous intellegence failiures. yes they have been scrutanized on the edge but not where they should be, they have scrutanized

eg if the US received information britain was going to aim nuclear weapons at the US, i guarantee that information would be triple if not quadruply checked adn verified.

1.Yet we didnt see this kind of questioning of the iraq intellegence why ??
2.we saw dodgy claims and spin to the verge of a lie which is usually avoided by politians.
3.i have seen people loose their job for far less than this, so who is to blame for these failiures and why are they still being employed after such a horrendous mistake?
4.what kind of safe guards have been put in place to prevent these kind of disasterous intellgence failiures from happening again ??
 
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