PC1 said:
Thank you for this. I appreciate your honesty here.
This marks some real progress in this discussion.
However I disagree with the idea that Saddam would ever have given up control of Iraq voluntarily. Remember that he already was isolated as a result of the embargo. And despite his unpopularity among most Iraqis, and his distrust among most arab countries, he maintained his grip on power and control of the country's resources. If covert actions were unsuccessful, and the embargo was only hurting Iraqi citizens while Saddam didn't seem to give a damn, and that Saddam was in at least some ways subverting the embargo with France and Russia, I don't know what else anyone could do to bring more pressure against him? What else could have been done?
Insofar as failures of intelligence go and the premise(s) by which the US invaded Iraq, I think the one thing anyone has to admire is the freedom of the press here in the US (and in England). Look at the level of public scrutiny the two governments are now receiving as a result of the invasion. Even if in the end you feel the war was unjustified or not worth the cost in lives and dollars, we would be hard pressed to justify an invasion of Iran or North Korea right now, just as examples, without being in possession of air-tight iron-clad intelligence that they posed a credible threat.
Hiphop, I agree with PC1 we have a breakthrough :thumbsup: :drunk:. Thank you for your frank answer to the question.
To bad that you still contracdict yourself
WMD have gone that he never had
We know he had WMD because he used them on the Kurds and Iranians.
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The ISG’s search for significant stockpiles of WMD has so far come up empty. It may be that there are no large stockpiles, as Dr. Kay has stated. But from my perspective in the MOST, this lack of a positive finding may also be the result of unfocused and uncoordinated ISG search operations. It is entirely possible that the much sought-after WMD stockpiles may be literally right under the feet of coalition forces, and until a properly coordinated search effort is completed, no firm conclusions about their presence or absence can be reached. The case remains open.
In his recent testimony, Dr. Kay pronounced that there are no large stockpiles of WMD. This is a pretty bold assertion considering that actual surveys of sites we were familiar with were haphazard and uncoordinated. Also, according to his own interim report published in October of 2003, the ISG had not even searched 120 of the 130 known ammo storage points, much less any underground sites. In addition to these known sites, “neighborhood� arms caches are discovered all the time in Iraq. It is entirely possible that WMD stockpiles were moved out of Iraq, or that they were dispersed in Baghdad neighborhoods and throughout Iraq. All of this may even have been accomplished while the unfocused search operations were ongoing.
How fast can you find something the size of a refrigerator in an area about the same size as texas? Even somehting a fraction of that size could bring unthinkable destruction and death to a large sized city. You also have to look at what you are defining as an immenent threat. Are we talking total descruction of the US, vis a vis full scale nuclear assault by the ussr? Hell no, never happen. Are we talking about some idoit releasing Sarin gas in a subway killing thousands and crippling the world economy. You bet.
hiphop said:
1.what right do the US have to be going around and imposing there values on other countries ?
2.who is to blame for this disterous performance about WMD and immenent threat
3.what kind of safe guards have been put in place to prevent this dangerous situation happening again.
1. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is a common argument, and I say you ARE 100% COMPLETELY RIGHT. I want the US our of the UN and NATO, I don't want millitary bases in Europe where my tax money bolsters the failing economy of an ungrateful population. I don't care that Sub-saharan africans are starving to death because local governments and warlords don't care about THEIR own people. I don't care that ME countries have some of the worst standards of living on the planet even though they sit on the richest natural resource supply around. I don't care that the chechens want to be a free islamic state not under russian control. I don't give a **** what happens in the balkins. You are right, the world as a whole needs to take responsibility for thier own actions and thier own problems.
But when friends and family are killed under the auspices of fanatical islam, then it becomes our problem. Would we have gone into iraq if there had been no 911, probably not. Do I think Iraq should have been next on the list if there were no WMD, I am not a military planner and am not privelege to all of the classified information to make that decision. IMO, there are other countries (Iran, North Korea) that are a far bigger mess and threat as far as wmd capablities are concerned.
The best we can hope for ( and there is tons of hope if you read some of the new iraqi blogs
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2. Saddam bears full responsiblity for not complying with resolution 1441.
3. When this is the language, posturing, and media coming out of a religeon. I don't see why America has to appoliogize for any action or bear sole responsibility for the problems in the region. Clean up your own backyard.
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Ben Laden : they held back your fools and interdict on them ..The sheikh puts the final touches before the coming battle
Two speeches to the sheikh Osama that the masses media neglected totally
A single of the nations the Islamic and fighting in Iraq
And this I will not stop at it a lot
Because it is included under the incitement that the sheikh Osama persisted in most his last messages
As for the second message
Then she was a clear political message
The sheikh Osama excuses himself in front of Allah and in front of the world
The sheikh Osama actually has knotted a jihad brigade major general so that it carries out strong battle in the back lines to the enemy
And this word she is nothing but an establishment of the pilgrimage
Until no is to the people a pretext they blame by it the sheikh when the event falls
And from the clear
Located on the point of the execution
And its prevention appears impossible
Or what the sheikh Osama spoke with this severe confidence
And he reminded them of what he said the day of Afghanistan hitting and she is the more famous sentence of it since it said
I swear by the great Allah who raised the sky without mayors, that America will not dream and no who lives in America with the security before we live it located in Palestine land and before it yields all unbelieving armies from Mohammad 's land peace be upon him
Since from the folds of its speaking the severe confidence appears that there is a matter has not being issued
And the secrecy of what may consider the minutes and the seconds Llithkhan is in the enemy
And the good reader to the juveniles
He knows that the Al-Qaeda will give with power in America and with no mercy
Because the Americans have done what raised the anger of the Muslims in the whole world it
And they used the strongest killing weapons in the killing of the free unarmed Muslims
And we do not forget that the eleventh events from September came answering to hitting an Afghanistan in 1998
And about 5 of the militants were killed !!!!
5 of the militants she drove Mohammad Ata 's brigade and Albraa and Al-Qaqaa and the surgeon that he overthrows the age idiots !!!
Then so what do you think of by these thousands that executed dead in Afghanistan and Iraq !!!
The confirmation of the sheikh that they count number of the dead from the Muslims
He confirms by what does not leave a field for the doubt that the coming hitting will be very painful
And the running will drive in it an expensive bill a price for its injustice and its pursuit the corruption in earth
Does she drop the Romans country with this hitting ØŸ
I do not think at all
But I think that the coming Aldria will be effective to the extent of that the Americans incite to the change of their politics totally in the region, and perhaps an open drawing to their forces from Iraq and Afghanistan is !!!
And it not the end is meant to the military America
But it will be the end to America the greatest, and the American century will end, so that powers start like Russia and France and Germany and China and Japan in the emergence on the arena !!
And this strong will represent an eastern leader from China and Russia, and a western leader from Germany and France, and will be the severe fear and the lining runner of the new pole that will appear by a force of the yard, and he is the jihad groups .
I say it confidently : the coming hitting - if the divine decree of it the success - then the militants will turn to a power that gives for it thousand consideration, and for them a Foreign Minister will be ordering then he is obeyed !!
And the sheikh Osama will drive the world all how he wants
And he will suffice the direction of a threat through the message of its sounds so that the enemies bodies tremble and comply with the man demands
Or then the stick is present
And there will be not island
He will mention the sheikh Osama knowledgeable of his stick God willing
The Americans understand that the rule will not miss the chance of the American elections for the pressure on the American people for the compliance with the execution of their demands
And the Al-Qaeda became possessing the initiative !!!! With the recognition of the Americans themselves !!
And he suffices
All today wait for what the Islam lion will do Osama is !!!
The coming days will be very hot
And she will witness the fall of the thrones of the Arab tyrants after the failure of their master in the White House
And if the hitting was delayed for some time
Then I do not think the reason that will be the non readiness
But - and Allah is more knowledgeable -, the Al-Qaeda wants that it exhausts the nerves of their enemy that his stock exchange collapse with the doing of this psychological war !!!
And I believe that the militants today perceive well
How and when they are hit
And from where the shoulder is eaten
And I think - and Allah is more knowledgeable - that the Al-Qaeda studies also the American reaction accurately on its coming hitting
And securing places alternative to the rules that their registration and their giving will take place as a reaction to the American enemy
And I am not excluded
There is a coordination it will be between the militants in Iraq and the fighting in America
Because the coming hitting will weaken from the intention of America men in Iraq
And have Tdfam for throwing the weapon
And the surrender to the resistance a price for the preservation of their life !!!
Oh Allah repay
Oh Allah repay
Oh Allah repay
man that should be a top 40 hit :blink:
