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aid to africa

What you take as being uneducated is just another way of looking at things... I truly have a problem with someone thinking that they have the prefect solution for things... there are no cut and dried areas... as for your books, I will put them on my wish list to read right after I finish my reading for my PhD classes... along with one I have here called "The Last Days of Ancient Sunlight" and One Called the Upcoming Plague
 
UNDERTAKER said:
.....
2. Africa in Chaos----If after reading this book, your not somewhat ashamed of your Western roots, then shame on you.
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Why should I be ashamed of something people of my heritage did LONG before I was even swimming in someones testicles? If that was not an ignorant statement, I don't know WHAT IS.

And, not to mention, I hope you know that not everyone in this thread is of western (caucasian) descent.
Dan---- If you knew about "Survival of the Fittest" and what that phrase meant, you would understand that it deals with evolution of species not ethnic groups or people. The phrase applied to humans was first used by a man named Herbert Spencer over 100 years ago and his idea was called Social Darwinism. The idea is widely rejected amoung scholars.
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I understand the wide-rejection of this theory by scholars; but sometimes things are rejected because "it doesn't feel right to say it." Objectivity is often lost by those of us who are arguably "too" empathetic.
Survival of the fittest has to do with filling a niche in an enviroment not being the "strongest" When you go to college my little friend, take some courses in this kinda stuff and educate yourself. And no I am not black.
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I doubt you educated anyone by giving the obvious definition. And, strongest si most definitely not the only factor in survival of the fittest. Intelligence and adaptation abilities (for starters) play a major role as well. And, this is exactly the same reason humans are the dominant life-form on the planet. We're not the biggest and strongest, but most definitely the most intelligent.

Humans often migrated and explored in order to acquire more resources, learn more, gain more power, and a whole host of other reasons. Those who did so were rewarded in this worlds pecking order. I'm not going to argue right or wrong here, that is irrelevant. That's it, plain and simple.

And, I think you need to understand something here. The atrocities commited centuries->mellenia ago by the caucasians you so despise were NOT racially motivated. It was simply for power. Along the way the sentiment turned movement "the white mans burden" (i'm sure you've heard of this Mr. Educated) had developed, not as a racially based and hate related movement, but as an arrogant and stupid idea. They believed that they had to force their way of life on those from other cultures who were less fortunate/gifted so that they could prosper. Yes, they did think they were better than everyone. But, that's common among all groups. The chinese, for gods sake, until recently believed they were "literally" gods gift to the world.

Similar sentiments among all ethnic groups and cultures exist, so lets grow up and not try to blame the white-folk again, k? It gets very old. Most cultures were attempting to do the same damn thing! They were just less successful, end of story. Know your history.
 
I would never say that I have the answer to Africa's problem. It might be another way of looking at things but can all of you guys honestly say that you have looked at Africa's situation in depth and made a knowledgible opinion on the matter? Many things I know nothing about, this is one thing I do know about. Not helping that continent is wrong, plan and simple. We will never solve all of our problems here and never will, and that doesnt mean we cant help others in need. Have some compassion, many would change their minds if they spent one day in a Zambien hospital, even the biggest meatheads would be in tears.
 
UNDERTAKER said:
I would never say that I have the answer to Africa's problem. It might be another way of looking at things but can all of you guys honestly say that you have looked at Africa's situation in depth and made a knowledgible opinion on the matter? Many things I know nothing about, this is one thing I do know about. Not helping that continent is wrong, plan and simple. We will never solve all of our problems here and never will, and that doesnt mean we cant help others in need. Have some compassion, many would change their minds if they spent one day in a Zambien hospital, even the biggest meatheads would be in tears.
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I have great pitty for the African continent. I feel horrible when I see atrocities commited against them and the UN sits and does nothing.

But, there is very little to absolutely nothing we can do to help them in regards to their economic situation and their disease epidemics.
 
forget this, I am just gonna stick to meathead topics and keep my political opinions to myself or else I am gonna end up being banned.
 
Again you are making assumptions that we don't care about things but from what I have read and seen, it is going to take a massive effort on the part of the world to stop some of the goings on in Africa.. the HIV/AIDS epidemic is way out of hand and unless we find a cure for that one and the change in climate in Northern Africa things are going to be truly screwed for a while..
 
Too many assumptions are being made. Basically no one is going change there opinion on the subject so it is worthless debating about it. Sorry If I insulted anyone, this topic gets me all riled up. I still think though that people should read some of those books.
 
Matthew D said:
Again you are making assumptions that we don't care about things but from what I have read and seen, it is going to take a massive effort on the part of the world to stop some of the goings on in Africa.. the HIV/AIDS epidemic is way out of hand and unless we find a cure for that one and the change in climate in Northern Africa things are going to be truly screwed for a while..
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Exactly.......I get sick watching the poor Africans on the news, and we do care.

But, WHAT can we do? Throwing money away isn't the best option when we ARE in trouble here in the USA.

Personally, I'd remove ALL funding to everyone outside of the US if I had it my way. It is unappreciated and abused anyway.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Exactly.......I get sick watching the poor Africans on the news, and we do care.

But, WHAT can we do? Throwing money away isn't the best option when we ARE in trouble here in the USA.

Personally, I'd remove ALL funding to everyone outside of the US if I had it my way. It is unappreciated and abused anyway.
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that last statement makes me wanna puke
 
Heres a bucket. <-- see, I'm compassionate and sensative :D

I say we're better off not financing our own demise. Most of the country's we fund would rather us be obliterated anyway. Why give them money? I mean, damn...We've been funding North Korea forever! Millions and millions of dollars which never made it to the people we wanted to help. In stead, we're financing the same nukes we're trying to keep at bay.

We dump huge cash into the middle east, look at how much they love us. Mexico...remember the entire soccer stadium chanting Osama Bin laden's name after we beat their team? Pick a country...there are very few who are actually putting our money to good use and even fewer who appreciate the gesture and don't want us all dead.

hell, even indonesia told us to get the hell out and just send them a check after the tsunami.

If a poor man said he hated you, and wanted you dead, would you give him money so he could go purchase a gun? In essence, that's what you do when you fund governments who have nothing but contempt for you.
 
UNDERTAKER said:
Too many assumptions are being made. Basically no one is going change there opinion on the subject so it is worthless debating about it. Sorry If I insulted anyone, this topic gets me all riled up. I still think though that people should read some of those books.
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You of course realizes this statement applies to you too? Perhaps you should read a few more books, perhaps those writen from a nonsocialist economic perspective. My opinion on Africa and foreign aid has changed from what it was when I was younger. Again, you make way too many assumptions. I have no shame for what's happening in Africa because I didn't have anything to do with it, plain and simple. As for racial/cultural shame, there's no race/culture that hasn't been fucked over or done the fucking over of another at some time in history, so it's a burden that's equally distributed and shared and therefore irrelevant. There's literally no one alive who couldn't pull out their calculator and start toting up a bill of what's owed to them because of what happened to their ancestors at one point in history. As for your closeness to the situation, I can empathize but I often find closeness and emotional involvement impairs judgement. Parents of murderers would happily have them set free instead of receiving prison sentences, but that's not the way it should necessarily be, and likewise for the families of the victims who would demand the death penalty. I'd suggest you at least read the report issued by Michael Maren on the situation in Somalia if you haven't already. He details the utter failure of the aid programs, the why and the how.

Whether you realize it or not you're making broad assumptions about people and their opinions here, as if we will read those books you recommended and all of sudden change their minds because we're so uneducated? Did it occur to you that some of us have read a bit more widely and deeply than the average layman on the matter and we have simply come to a different conclusion than you? Do you know how many people from Africa I spent time with when I was in school? People from Kenya, Niger, Somalia, South Africa, etc. It's presumptuous to think that because people have a different opinion than yours that they are less educated. It's also presumptuous to think your emotional involvement with the African situation trumps anyone elses involvement/judgement on the matter.

What's happening in Africa is horrible, but no kind of foreign aid will solve it, and especially not the kind of foreign aid we currently practice.
 
UNDERTAKER said:
instead of ranting and raving about some of the less and I mean LESS educated people that have posted, I will post two suggested readings for all those who actually care to have an educated opinion on this subject instead of some of the responses I have been seeing.....

1. Guns,Germs and Steel ---a book about why some ethnic groups were successful and others were not

2. Africa in Chaos----If after reading this book, your not somewhat ashamed of your Western roots, then shame on you.

Dan---- If you knew about "Survival of the Fittest" and what that phrase meant, you would understand that it deals with evolution of species not ethnic groups or people.

"strongest" When you go to college my little friend, take some courses in this kinda stuff and educate yourself.
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I absolutely can not stand how you tend to pass your judgement on who is or is not educated. i am very educated and read more books than most people.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST i believe can be applied to different races. i am not white and i whole heartedly believe that not all are made equal, and the world is survival of the fittest whether that seems fair or not.

i am interested in maybe opening my eyes to how maybe the africans or any other culture is worth giving aid to. Maybe i havent "educated myself enough"....lol. so i PROMISE you that i will read that second book and maybe i will turn out like you at the end.

I will update you all when i am done reading the book
 
CDB said:
You of course realizes this statement applies to you too? Perhaps you should read a few more books, perhaps those writen from a nonsocialist economic perspective. My opinion on Africa and foreign aid has changed from what it was when I was younger. Again, you make way too many assumptions. I have no shame for what's happening in Africa because I didn't have anything to do with it, plain and simple. As for racial/cultural shame, there's no race/culture that hasn't been fucked over or done the fucking over of another at some time in history, so it's a burden that's equally distributed and shared and therefore irrelevant. There's literally no one alive who couldn't pull out their calculator and start toting up a bill of what's owed to them because of what happened to their ancestors at one point in history. As for your closeness to the situation, I can empathize but I often find closeness and emotional involvement impairs judgement. Parents of murderers would happily have them set free instead of receiving prison sentences, but that's not the way it should necessarily be, and likewise for the families of the victims who would demand the death penalty. I'd suggest you at least read the report issued by Michael Maren on the situation in Somalia if you haven't already. He details the utter failure of the aid programs, the why and the how.

Whether you realize it or not you're making broad assumptions about people and their opinions here, as if we will read those books you recommended and all of sudden change their minds because we're so uneducated? Did it occur to you that some of us have read a bit more widely and deeply than the average layman on the matter and we have simply come to a different conclusion than you? Do you know how many people from Africa I spent time with when I was in school? People from Kenya, Niger, Somalia, South Africa, etc. It's presumptuous to think that because people have a different opinion than yours that they are less educated. It's also presumptuous to think your emotional involvement with the African situation trumps anyone elses involvement/judgement on the matter.

What's happening in Africa is horrible, but no kind of foreign aid will solve it, and especially not the kind of foreign aid we currently practice.
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:goodpost:
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Beelze...beelze...beelze....I've never met a guy who could communicate so efficiently with so few words.

Thank God for the quote button and good posting emoticon :D
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big words scare me. the smilie speaks my mind. :cheers:
 
CDB--thats was the reason I said it I know it applies to me too, that is what I was getting at. You obviously know your stuff, I wasnt speaking to you directly, you are one of the people posting that obviously knows about the topic. Its fine with me that we disagree cause at least you have read and thought about your opinion, my problem it with people decisions without knowing about the topic.

Surviival of the fittest has been found empirically NOT to be true. Its like a catch phrase, it doesnt apply to humans, scientists now know this. Cultures just dont work like that. Guns Germs and Steel get into this a little and show the real(or at least some of) why some cultures have succeded and other have not. It NOT cuz some are stronger, it has more to do with simple geography then
anything else.

This thread started out good and know its just becoming a bash me fest. Where are all the people that agreed with me in the beginning (minus my asshole way of putting it, which i apoligize for)
 
I don't think that the intent was to become a bash you thread but you have to wonder when you posted some of your posts...
As for your geography playing a major roll in the development/success of cultures.. for the most part you are right about that... but the thing that seems to be missed, not by you alone, is the fact that you can take a very rich area and expolit to the max and deal a death blow to your civilization. IMO that is one area where Africa has done some of this to themselves, they had rich cultures 2,000 years before the US was even founded and now look at them... But do we just write them off because "Hey, it's the nature order for societies to prosper and then fall." That I don't know but the side of me that is "bleeding heart" says no, we have to help but help in a way that they get themselves back on their feet. WE CAN'T GIVE IT TO THEM.. it has to be earned

But the whole idea of survival of the fittest is what you were talking about.. in biology/ecology the organism that has the best set of traits for a particular area thrives but if you move that organism, it might not have a niche that it can survive in, so it either adapts (built in traits) or dies.. societies work in the same way do they not? If a society is not giving the members what they need to survive, then does the society not breakdown and begin to disappear? I am just asking questions more than anything, not trying to presuade you...
 
matt your right, socities do work that way, I am not saying that the evolution of living organisms and the evolution of culture share the same characteristics. People just missuse that phrase to explain why some cultures are most successful than other. African socities worked pretty well for the most part until almost every western country and some middle eastern ones came in and, for lack of better words, **** it up for them. Contrary to popular belief most African tribe were peaceful, you just never hear about them. Everyone hears about the voilent ones like the Zulu's
 
That is the case with all the world.. how many Native America tribes do you know? Bet that least half of your list would be the ones that went to "war" with earlier settlers.. Same goes for Indonesia and Borneo... we only here about the "bad" natives..
You are also right that biological terms do get used in the wrong meaning.. that comes from a bad personal construct on the part of the user (ie you missunderstood something) I have a good book you might like UT, it is called Educating for Eco-Justice and Community by C.A. Bowers
 
yea dude that is all I am saying, things get miscontruded and everyone starts believing it. I am not trying to be a no it all. Book sounds good, I just might look into it.
 
UNDERTAKER said:
instead of ranting and raving about some of the less and I mean LESS educated people that have posted, I will post two suggested readings for all those who actually care to have an educated opinion on this subject instead of some of the responses I have been seeing.....


Dan---- If you knew about "Survival of the Fittest" and what that phrase meant, you would understand that it deals with evolution of species not ethnic groups or people. The phrase applied to humans was first used by a man named Herbert Spencer over 100 years ago and his idea was called Social Darwinism. The idea is widely rejected amoung scholars. Survival of the fittest has to do with filling a niche in an enviroment not being the "strongest" When you go to college my little friend, take some courses in this kinda stuff and educate yourself. And no I am not black.
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I know the way I used it wasn't its real meaning. But, it follows the same concept. Keep up with the changing world or you wont make it. We have discovered new technologies like refrigeration that helps us excell as a people that they simply dont have. This would be the same as a jaguar one day not being able to catch a gazelle because the gazelle gets too fast. If the jaguar cant keep up, it is doomed.
 
its not the same dude, thurst me, things just arent that simple. Some societies CANT excell. And some of the reasons they cant and havent has to do with Western interference in there way of life. I am telling you dude, just read Guns Germs and Steel and you will understand what I mean. There are other books too, but that one is the best and the most comprehensive. Take an african history course in college, I used to think like you when I was 17 and now I am older and I still feel I have alot to learn. Dont be so eager to turn your back on these people, we can help and we have. We live so well in this country, other deserve to too.

Not to change the subject, but did you guys know 2/3 of the worlds cocoa used for chocolate etc... is harvested from child slave labor in Africa? I dont mean like swear shops, I mean bought and owned slaves and there kids. Its mostly middle eastern slave traders. One way we could help is to stop buying cocoa from these people. Hersheys has vowed not to buy cocoa from these people and I think Mars did too.
 
Too many assumptions are being made. Basically no one is going change there opinion on the subject so it is worthless debating about it. Sorry If I insulted anyone, this topic gets me all riled up. I still think though that people should read some of those books.
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Undertaker I don't mean this to offend you at all but your not articulating you points very well at all. From what you said on this page you feel that we should feel ashamed at the way our culture treated Africa based on some books you read. By that it's easy take that as you believe that we should give Africa money. Then you say you don't think throwing money at them is the solution to the problem. Then KW said that he would remove all funding from Africa among other countries. You responded that makes you want to puke which goes against you previous statement that you don't think throwing money at them will solve the problem. So lets try this again...................... Africa is a mess and we should be ashamed and you would do what exactly?
 
funding comes in many forms, you dont have to just throw the money at them, we know that doesnt work, but giving money to American, European and African based organizations and charites does help and have an impact. Though I dont agree with missonary work, they help as well. Give money to groups that know how to use the money, or volunteer for one of the groups themselves. Hire educators, workers like in peace corps. All that takes money. The money must be used efficently and wisely. I agree with some of what your guys are saying just not assinine statements like "I think we shouldnt give any money in foreign aid" I cant believe people are getting all over my case and not over k for making this one.
 
funding comes in many forms, you dont have to just throw the money at them, we know that doesnt work, but giving money to American, European and African based organizations and charites does help and have an impact. Though I dont agree with missonary work, they help as well. Give money to groups that know how to use the money, or volunteer for one of the groups themselves. Hire educators, workers like in peace corps. All that takes money. The money must be used efficently and wisely. I agree with some of what your guys are saying just not assinine statements like "I think we shouldnt give any money in foreign aid" I cant believe people are getting all over my case and not over k for making this one.
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So you are in favor of more of a private charities and private organizations then would go in and help?
 
depending on the private organization and thier motives, but yes. However, I am talking more about NGO's like UNICEF. We need more goverment organizations to arise as well so we get use the money wisely.
 
Personally I would say keep the government out of it because they have their own motives also.. and they are not usually complete pure...
 
UNDERTAKER said:
its not the same dude, thurst me, things just arent that simple. Some societies CANT excell. And some of the reasons they cant and havent has to do with Western interference in there way of life.
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"The dominant view is that anatomically modern humans emerged in Africa around 130,000 years ago and then, some 60,000 years later, rather suddenly spread across the world in an explosive process known as the "human revolution". It was during the earliest stages of this revolutionary process that symbolic art, ritual and language emerged." Invalid Link Removed

130,000 years ago, the playing field was equal and modern human started in the same damn place. That means that all of humanity had the same opportunities. Only in the last 5000 years or so did certain cultures arise as "dominant". That gives 125,000 years where everyone had the opportunity to explore, discover, and prosper.

No culture is RESPONSIBLE for another cultures current situation. That doesn't mean that some haven't taken advantage of others who are less evolved, weaker, etc, just simply that opportunity was the same for everyone.

Darwins theories apply to humans as well.
 
Matthew D said:
Personally I would say keep the government out of it because they have their own motives also.. and they are not usually complete pure...
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100% agreed.

"Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton

(One of my favorite quotes :))
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
"The dominant view is that anatomically modern humans emerged in Africa around 130,000 years ago and then, some 60,000 years later, rather suddenly spread across the world in an explosive process known as the "human revolution". It was during the earliest stages of this revolutionary process that symbolic art, ritual and language emerged." Invalid Link Removed

130,000 years ago, the playing field was equal and modern human started in the same damn place. That means that all of humanity had the same opportunities. Only in the last 5000 years or so did certain cultures arise as "dominant". That gives 125,000 years where everyone had the opportunity to explore, discover, and prosper.

No culture is RESPONSIBLE for another cultures current situation. That doesn't mean that some haven't taken advantage of others who are less evolved, weaker, etc, just simply that opportunity was the same for everyone.

Darwins theories Invalid Link Removed to humans as well.
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Totally agree. :cheers:
 
davisville64 said:
Totally agree. :cheers:
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;)

Oh, and to add to that, I don't need to hear anything about "natural resources" either because some sought natural resources out. Japan has the shitties natty resource supply ever and Mexico is just overflowing.
 
Actually the "out of africa" theory is being challeged using mitrochodrial DNA but the results are not as conclusive as everyone would like
 
Matthew D said:
Actually the "out of africa" theory is being challeged using mitrochodrial DNA but the results are not as conclusive as everyone would like
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I've heard that, but regardless the point is still the same. :)
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
"The dominant view is that anatomically modern humans emerged in Africa around 130,000 years ago and then, some 60,000 years later, rather suddenly spread across the world in an explosive process known as the "human revolution". It was during the earliest stages of this revolutionary process that symbolic art, ritual and language emerged." Invalid Link Removed

130,000 years ago, the playing field was equal and modern human started in the same damn place. That means that all of humanity had the same opportunities. Only in the last 5000 years or so did certain cultures arise as "dominant". That gives 125,000 years where everyone had the opportunity to explore, discover, and prosper.

No culture is RESPONSIBLE for another cultures current situation. That doesn't mean that some haven't taken advantage of others who are less evolved, weaker, etc, just simply that opportunity was the same for everyone.

Darwins theories apply to humans as well.
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I totally disagree with that last paragraph and will never agree with it. Based on all the stuff I have read, that is just straight wrong. If you need examples I would be happy to give some. Lets just agree to disagree.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
"The dominant view is that anatomically modern humans emerged in Africa around 130,000 years ago and then, some 60,000 years later, rather suddenly spread across the world in an explosive process known as the "human revolution". It was during the earliest stages of this revolutionary process that symbolic art, ritual and language emerged." Invalid Link Removed

130,000 years ago, the playing field was equal and modern human started in the same damn place. That means that all of humanity had the same opportunities. Only in the last 5000 years or so did certain cultures arise as "dominant". That gives 125,000 years where everyone had the opportunity to explore, discover, and prosper.

No culture is RESPONSIBLE for another cultures current situation. That doesn't mean that some haven't taken advantage of others who are less evolved, weaker, etc, just simply that opportunity was the same for everyone.

Darwins theories apply to humans as well.
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I see where you are coming from and agree somewhat. I think the basis of this idea to help Africa doesn't start with money. It starts with investing money into programs that are designed specifically in increasing ones knowledge of a given subject. My thought process is more of an open religious perspective. When you mention the playing field was equal 130,000 years ago and everyone had the same opportunities is kind of narrow minded imo. For example, say 100 people were dropped off in the jungle somewhere. Some would wonder off to find rescue, while others would set up camp, and possibly others would branch off and start their own little camp. This is over a large time frame. Everybody has their own perspective of life and success. Not everyone will do and react in the same way. Some cultures want to live peacefully, some want to prosper economically, some want military power, and some want to destroy all those who've succeeded in these areas (terrorists). Survival of the fittest is used soley to describe those who cannot adapt to a change in their environmental surroundings. It has no place in who has the biggest guns. I could cross the street and beat the **** out of my neigbor and while he bleeds to death exclaim, "survival of the fittest bitch!" lol.
I totally disagree with the idea that no culture is responsible for another cultures given situation. Humans have to take responsibility for digging their own hole, or somebody digging it for them. Look at the native americans, is the european culture, at that given era, not responsible for the native indians' current situation? Was the nazi ideology not responsible for the massive loss of the jewish culture? the list could go on and on and i'm sure the phrase "survival of the fittest" will be thrown out for the basis of these events. Surviving for the pleasure of living differs with survival from mutiny.
 
UNDERTAKER said:
I totally disagree with that last paragraph and will never agree with it. Based on all the stuff I have read, that is just straight wrong. If you need examples I would be happy to give some. Lets just agree to disagree.
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I agree to disagree, but would appreciate examples.

I know my history fairly well, and I can say that my "western ancestors" did absolutley nothing other than what would have been done to them by others. In fact, most of the worlds cultures at one point attempted world dominance or some form of expansion. The muslims were controlling large parts of Africa before we even knew the Indian Ocean existed. Some just didn't get very far in their attempts.

And, those who didn't make any major attempts at warfare, had plenty of small localized tribal wars....constantly. The only reason they never went larger scale was simply because they were unable to develope systems of government and there was no cultural unity. In short, there were always small groups of dozens of people trying to kick each others ass over who gets to hunt on this portion of land, etc instead of creating a powerful state and expanding their power (which isn't necessarily a good thing, morally.)

I just see the past as the past, I understand that people aren't equal but brilliant mind are everywhere, and I refuse to give aid to those who don't use it properly, don't appreciate it, and/or basically wish harm on me (All of which are characteristics of the majority of countries and organizations we give aid to. Even the UN :sad:).
 
depending on the private organization and thier motives, but yes. However, I am talking more about NGO's like UNICEF. We need more goverment organizations to arise as well so we get use the money wisely.
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Again you seen to be contradicting you. First you say that throwing money at Africa won't solve the problem. Then you say, "We need more government organizations to arise as well so we get use the money wisely". I'm sorry but bureaucratic governments and government organization don't work. They waste a large percentage of resources and time on creating bureaucracy. I have no problem with NGO going in and helping out with their selective fields or private charities. People can give to them if they want or not give to them. I do not think NGO's should get grants or be subsidized in any way from the government. I have a problem with our government forcing tax payers to pay for charities then basically giving Africa a blank check to do with what they want. Doing that will cause more problems. Charities and charity work are best left to private organizations. They want to spend billions of dollars treating AIDS. I have a problem with that because they are not treating the cause of the problem only the symptoms. Not to gross anyone out but anal sex is rampant in Africa. We know that that's a easy way to get AIDS. They have been saying for years that AIDS is going to hit straight populations like it did the homosexual populations but it has never happened. Why? It's because the type of sex homosexuals have and the average number of partners many homosexuals have which is much more than an average straight person has. That subject is never discussed because isn't politically correct. In you can't have a honest discussion about the root cause of the problem you are not going to solve the problems. Again, I can't justify giving billion of tax payers money when we have many problems here. The governments money comes from the people.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
Again you seen to be contradicting you. First you say that throwing money at Africa won't solve the problem. Then you say, "We need more government organizations to arise as well so we get use the money wisely". I'm sorry but bureaucratic governments and government organization don't work. They waste a large percentage of resources and time on creating bureaucracy. I have no problem with NGO going in and helping out with their selective fields or private charities. People can give to them if they want or not give to them. I do not think NGO's should get grants or be subsidized in any way from the government. I have a problem with our government forcing tax payers to pay for charities then basically giving Africa a blank check to do with what they want. Doing that will cause more problems. Charities and charity work are best left to private organizations. They want to spend billions of dollars treating AIDS. I have a problem with that because they are not treating the cause of the problem only the symptoms. Not to gross anyone out but anal sex is rampant in Africa. We know that that's a easy way to get AIDS. They have been saying for years that AIDS is going to hit straight populations like it did the homosexual populations but it has never happened. Why? It's because the type of sex homosexuals have and the average number of partners many homosexuals have which is much more than an average straight person has. That subject is never discussed because isn't politically correct. In you can't have a honest discussion about the root cause of the problem you are not going to solve the problems. Again, I can't justify giving billion of tax payers money when we have many problems here. The governments money comes from the people.
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:goodpost: (But, I still like anal sex....:twisted: )
 
I am a Gnostic Christian and have compassion for these

people. But like the Bible says, charity starts at home.
Take care of our neighbors first, there are plenty here suffering that should be helped.
 
But since the bible doesnt mean anything to me or to many other americans, your statment is void in my eyes. To me the bible is just a story. I just wrote a book call the Undertaker's Bible and it states "African is fucked up, and were partially to blame, therefore its our responsibility to help" No offense to your religon, I do believe in many of the morals it contains, just for different reasons.
 
Partially to blame I can "almost" agree with. I would say that over the past few hundred years we've taken advantage of them during the imperial era, yes.

But, honestly, where would they be had we not colonized much of Africa for a few hundred years?
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Partially to blame I can "almost" agree with. I would say that over the past few hundred years we've taken advantage of them during the imperial era, yes.

But, honestly, where would they be had we not colonized much of Africa for a few hundred years?
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I dont have the answer to that, but be it as its pretty fucking fucked up over there it couldnt be much worse. Case in point is that we were there and we did alot of damage.
 
Now your just being nasty Undertaker. Thats not called for.
If you dont believe in God fine, you can turn away from him but he will never turn away from you.
If people want to help Africa fine, others dont. It isnt our responsibility right now, until we take care of people here. Charity starts at home.
 
I dont mean to be nasty, sorry. I dont want to bring religion into this coversation, keep it pragmatic, no more bible quotes please. I dont believe in it so its wothless to debate with me on a religious train of thought.
 
UNDERTAKER said:
I dont have the answer to that, but be it as its pretty fucking fucked up over there it couldnt be much worse. Case in point is that we were there and we did alot of damage.
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It has been pretty fucked up over there for a while. It got "nastier" because we started giving medication to these people so now they're living longer and spreading their diseases to their 6-8 children and they have become overpopulated as a result of the age increase.

Exponentially increasing population without an established economy is a very bad thing (bad even with many times). We cannot put together a government for them, and we can't make the people do their part.

Did anybody help out the westerners? Did anybody make the japanese so prosperous? No and no.
 
UNDERTAKER said:
I dont mean to be nasty, sorry. I dont want to bring religion into this coversation, keep it pragmatic, no more bible quotes please. I dont believe in it so its wothless to debate with me on a religious train of thought.
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Just as you have the right to not believe in God, so do people have the right not to support their tax dollars going to Africa. I have no problem helping those in need, but i think there are people here that are in desperate need of help.
Just my 2 cents.

Everyone has free will and everyone must take responsibility for themselves, including the Africans
 
again the religon, I am not really a big fan of free will. I would read more into the thread we have already discuss the thing you are saying. You making a blanket statement "the Africans?" Its a whole continent. Do you know anything about Africa?
 
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