AI or DHT

B5150

B5150

Legend
I want to throw this one out there for some discussion.

In the case of this discussion the estrogen sensitivity being discussed is estrogen bloat not gyno. The sensitivity is not really moon pie bloat but rather an increased propensity to acrue fat around the midsection when eating in surplus, even slightly.

We know that estrogen and adipose tissue/cells have a symbiotic relationship. We know that increased or elevated estrogen contributes to increased adipose tissue.

We know that there is a some who believe that reducing estrogen created by exogenous testosterone hinders gains. I have heard it said that by doing this a bulker would become a lean mass gaining cycle (which btw is not a bad thing for someone who gets over fat too easily)

We know that the use of an AI (arimidex) can aggresively reduce estrogen and compromise cholesterol. Used sparingly it can be very effective at managing estrogenic bloat.

So we know that reducing (too low) estrogen can hinder gains. But what we also know and sometimes forget is that DHT is an alternate method to control estrogen. Here is a quote by someone credible just to support my theory:
Designer Supps said:
You could go with 3 alpha powder in a trans solution and rub it right on where you want. M5aa would also help to lower overall E.

Actually DHT will be even better for the sex drive, you want to control E not totaly destroy it. The real reason it can hurt gains is GH needs it to be present in the liver for a better igf1 conversion. if e is to low now igf1.

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Suppose you used M-DHT, M5AA or 3-Alpha as an alternative to an AI to control the excess estrogen. You would still be able to yield its anabolic properties and reap the androgenic properties (for those who enjoy them) of a true DHT or its derivative.

I know that in my research I uncovered many of my fellow members as well as some veterans who have dabbled in some discussion or variation of this topic.

Please discuss...:)
 
Ill be the first to post.

proviron is M-DHT correct? Hence its estrogen controlling properties. I think most buy the adex or AI's because they are following the norm and it is more widely and cheaply available. I have no experience with using DHT derivatives in place of an AI but it sounds like a great idea to me and im going to try both an AI beggining of cycle and Proviron ending half of cycle to see how it goes.

Id like to see someone argue or discuss the reason using an AI on cycle is superior to DHT besides the known sides of using androgenic compounds.
 
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Pharmaceutical Name: Mesterolone
Chemical structure: 1 alpha-methyl-17 beta-hydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-3-one
Molecular weight of base: 304.4716

Effective dose: 25-100 mg / day orally

Characteristics:

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.

Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe, its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.

Stacking and Use:

Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.

The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.

It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.

Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.
 
Well, my thoughts are...let me get some experienced users thoughts. ;)

Proviron has been used forever for this reason. I have seen anecdotal reports of M-DHT, M5AA and 3-Alpha providing similar benefits.
 
5150, have you ever used proviron? I was reading something last night saying that you could use it post cycle therapy or as a bridge. Your literature says it is also pretty supressive.
Maybe it was primobolan i was reading about.

to come to think of it my first cycle 1 test, 4 ad 10 weeks. I used M5AA for a decent portion of it i had decent bloating, but i was also on m14ad(i think thats what it was) and bulking hard core, but no gyno symptoms at all. I don't remeber how long i ran it, but i know i started with it. So im thinking at least 4-6 weeks.

My next cycle was enthane 1-14, and 1 test 1-12, I used MDHT the first 8 weeks. I was also using sdrol the first 4 weeks. I was ridiculously dry ripped to the bone (probably a LIGIT 6%) no gyno symptoms at all.

Both of these cycles i started with a DHT component and had ZERO occurances of gyno symtoms.

My third cycle was Enthane1-12, 1 test 1-10, and tren (5-11?) was introduced later. I started with m1t and max LMG and discountinued them right away. On this cycle i felt gyno symtoms (aching) by the second day and it nagged me for the rest of the cycle and i'm still having flare ups and various problems (lactation, puffyness, increased size). I was also using NOLVA for the first 10 weeks of this cycle. the gyno went away completly around week 12 (atd 3 caps) and returned about 4 weeks into post cycle therapy.

My 4th cycle
Prop 1-6 100eod
Masterone 1-6 100 eod.
I had gyno symptoms that nagged me about the whole time. I was also using letro and cab throughout.

I know your looking for bloating issues more so, but thats my expeirence with gyno, maybe there are some links.

As far as bloating though, i found m5aa and MDHT far superior to tren and masterone in terms of dryness.
I actually wish i could get my hands on them for future use.
They are 2 of my favorite compounds i have ever used. The preworkout jump is great as well.

I was thinking about experimenting with proviron, but its damn expensive. Maybe its worth it.
 
I know some people that bridge between cycles with proviron, those types are the same ones that use HCG post cycle. They are both suppressive if only a little but give signs to make you think that you arent being suppressed.
 
proviron is commonly used as an anti-e during cycles. it has great benefits, and isnt 17aa. i think anyone without MPB should give it a shot. MDHT has too many sides, IMO. the aggression and oiliness alone made me stop. strength was impressive though, and dryness also.

AIs are good because that's ALL they do. DHT (and its close cousins masteron, proviron, winny, MDHT) is an entirely separate hormone that will cause additional shutdown during cycles, despite (or perhaps due to) the SHBG binding, and has sides all its own (BPH, MPB, acne, etc) that some people arent comfortable with.

i cant imagine aromasin or dex not covering you on estrogen.
 
:goodpost: I see where you are coming from and those are all good reasons to choose AI over DHT. Additional shutdown and sides with DHT derivatives. I for one have MPB but Im going to give proviron a shot just to see how i react. What is BPH btw?
 
OK...let me clear up a few points. This individual is not too concerned with shut down, as he is on TRT and his endogenous test production is already inhibited.

AI's would easily cover any estrogen issues. But in light of the negatives of lowered estrogen (lipid and libido) we are discussing an alternative to controling estrogen. DHT is speculated to do this while providing increased free test and androgenic properties.

The issue of bloat is not so much a visual bloating or gyno but rather excessive estrogen that potentiates fat acrual when in surplus calories. Eliminating the estrogen can help this but at the possible cost of gains. DHT is speculated to control estrogen with potential to solidify gains.

The option to reduce calories is counterproductive to gaining LBM. The elimination of estrogen by AI is potentially quite bad to lipids. Seems like a DHT may be a mix of the best of both world.

My research thusfar has found enecdotal reports that suggest that DHT (proviron) provides no anti-e characteristics, while others report it does. I know of several veteran members here who both support and discount the use. It is my hope that they will add their contributions as well.
 
B5150 said:
The elimination of estrogen by AI is potentially quite bad to lipids. Seems like a DHT may be a mix of the best of both world.
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the reason why despite my MPB i still am attracted to Proviron, seems to do more to help. Besides andro sides which arent that bad if you have means to control them.
 
My upcomming cutter i'll be using Proviron at around 75mg to lower estrogen and SHBG, i think it's awesome stuff. Also i wouldn't use Femara or Arimidex, Aromasin is that i'd stick with, boosts igf-1 levels, no estrogenic rebound and doesn't trash your lipids, what more could you ask for? But you have to take cost into consideration Proviron and Aromasin especially aren't cheap.
 
Proviron, in this case is not an option, but only used as an example of a reputable and common DHT used in this application. Items of consideration are MDHT, M5AA and 3-Alpha.
 
I dont know about those. Someone once told me when i first started researching the roid game that proviron was MDHT but i notice it is slightly different now. I have no clue on thos substances but have read a review that m5aa was awesome at preworkout strenght and intensity...
 
B5150 said:
My research thusfar has found enecdotal reports that suggest that DHT (proviron) provides no anti-e characteristics, while others report it does. I know of several veteran members here who both support and discount the use. It is my hope that they will add their contributions as well.
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Probably just for the hell of it...I created a transdermal DHT that I used during the back half of my last 16 week cycle.

I found that I did not need an anti-e while using the DHT transdermal but it did not shrink my nipples (which didn't need shrinking) the way adex or Nolva does. I often applied a little directly to the nipple and it worked fine. One big benefit was the huge libido boost the DHT gave me.

On the downside it did probably did make my post cycle therapy harder to recover from.

One freaky use is application of DHT transdermal to a clamped penis (see PE exercises). The thought is to get more of a local effect. DHT receptors are suppose to be turned off after puberty...but some say they are still active for repair. A few claim girth gains and increased vascularity. LOL
 
meowmeow said:
Probably just for the hell of it...I created a transdermal DHT that I used during the back half of my last 16 week cycle.

I found that I did not need an anti-e while using the DHT transdermal but it did not shrink my nipples (which didn't need shrinking) the way adex or Nolva does.
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I have seen similar when using 3-Alpha in a TD.
One freaky use is application of DHT transdermal to a clamped penis (see PE exercises). The thought is to get more of a local effect. DHT receptors are suppose to be turned off after puberty...but some say they are still active for repair. A few claim girth gains and increased vascularity. LOL
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Now that's just TMI!!!
 
meowmeow said:
Yep I agree...but some guys are using it for that. Probably will end up enlarging their prostate though.
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I really don't like the idea of rubbing DHT near my prostate! I'd sit funny for weeks!
 
I have muy own theories and am smart enough to draw my own conclusions and know how to validate them on my own. I just enjoy intelligent conversation from time to time. Thanks for the contributions thusfar.

Here is something that someone else that I know shared elsewhere:
pogue said:
I posted this on BB in the supps forum and I thought I'd post this here also for some discussion

Some of you may already know this, but for some of you this is new information.

I noticed a lot of people on a PH cycle want to use anti-estrogens to prevent some of the unwanted effects of estrogen such as gyno and water retention. However, people need to keep in mind that estrogen plays a major role in gains.

Estrogen causes glucose increase to the muscles, increased IGF and GH output and androgen receptor upregulation as well as possibly inreasing the number of androgen receptors in satellite cells.

So, you're probably saying, what does that have to do with DHT? Well, in the body DHT acts as an estrogen regulator. It decreases estrogen output and can also act as aromatize inhibitor. I also believe that some forms of DHT can bind to the estrogen receptor, blocking it, similar to the actions of tamoxifen, but I could be mistaken in that regards.

So, my suggestion is instead of using an anti-estrogen throughout the cycle, is to use an oral DHT precursor such as 3 alpha or 5 alpha dione or diol, or even 3 beta. This would allow you to increase the amount of DHT in your circulation, thereby not only inhibiting increased estrogen but also get the other effects of increased amounts of DHT such as lowered SHBG and increased stregth. This would be similar to using Proviron on a steroid cycle.

Obviously this recommendation will not work for everyone, like those who experience some of the unwanted androgenic side effects of increased DHT such as those concerned with hair loss or prostate problems, but for most this should work well.

According to Bill L, the conversion rate for 3 alpha is 43%, for 3 beta and 5 alpha it is around 9%. So in order to get a dosage similar to Proviron of 50mg a day, you would need about 150mg of 3 alpha per day to get to that. For 5 alpha you would need about 300mg or so.

Too bad Molecular doesn't make Viratese anymore. I don't know anyone that carries 5 alpha dione.

You would want to use this either throughout the whole cycle if you are very prone to estrogenic effects or just as estrogenic effects occured to increase the benefits of estrogen through your cycle.

Remember, this is all pretty much theory (DHT does block estrogen, I am just not positive of the dosages) so it is always a good idea to keep an anti-estrogen such as Nolvadex or Arimidex on hand during a cycle.

Thanks to raybravo for the references

Estrogen Effects:

Fryburg DA., Weltman A., Jahn LA., et al: Short-term modulation of the androgen milieu alters pulsatile, but not exercise- or growth hormone releasing hormone-stimulated GH secretion in healthy men: Impact of gonadal steroid and GH secretory changes on metabolic outcomes.

J Clin Endocrinol. Metab. 82(11):3710-37-19, 1997

Metabolism 1997 Feb;46(2):179-85

Evidence for sex steroid inhibition of lipoprotein lipase in men: comparison of abdominal and femoral adipose tissue.

Ramirez ME, McMurry MP, Wiebke GA, Felten KJ, Ren K, Meikle AW, Iverius PH

Metabolism 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50

The effect of testosterone aromatization on high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level and post heparin lipolytic activity.

Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD.

Department of Medicine, Miriam Hospital, Providence, RI.

Androgen hormone binding to adipose tissue in rats.

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1995 May 11;1244(1):117-20.

DHT as an anti-estrogen:

J Clin Invest 1984 Dec;74(6):2272-8

Antiestrogenic action of dihydrotestosterone in mouse breast. Competition with estradiol for binding to the estrogen receptor.

Casey RW, Wilson JD.
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CHAPS said:
My upcomming cutter i'll be using Proviron at around 75mg to lower estrogen and SHBG, i think it's awesome stuff. Also i wouldn't use Femara or Arimidex, Aromasin is that i'd stick with, boosts igf-1 levels, no estrogenic rebound and doesn't trash your lipids, what more could you ask for? But you have to take cost into consideration Proviron and Aromasin especially aren't cheap.
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aromasin or formestane, which actually has anabolic properties IME...although aromasin is the most lipid-friendly, and can actually improve them.

BPH = benign prostate hyperplasia (enlarged prostate)

i believe DHT has anti-e properties, not AI properties. i was under the impression that was medical fact, but i'd have to recheck my sources...

B5150 - give that 3-alpha a try and let us know how it is!

anybody think proviron's 1-methyl bond changes how it is metabolized and gives it anything that DHT doesnt have? masteron has effects different from DHT (less libido, more hardness - i suspect it has some anabolic activity in skeletal muscle), so why wouldnt proviron? primo has a 1-methyl that obviously changes its effects from the remainder of the chemical (1-Test)
 
same_old said:
B5150 - give that 3-alpha a try and let us know how it is!
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Have (am) used(ing) 3-alpha at ~250mg/d TD for about a week. Based on a ~25-30% absorption and 43% conversion that would equate to ~30mg/d active DHT. Stomach bloat is dimished. Slight drying and hardening. Wife made a comment that my stomach looked flatter.

Lets note that pogue's statement say conversion. It does not say anything about oral availablity. I will look into it.
 
I've used Formestane in a transdermal in the past and love the stuff, i wanna see if CNW will offer it in bulk, best case scenerio is if i can get my hands on some injectable Formestane apparently the results are similar to primo when using 500mg/week or so. I noticed my strength was shooting up and my nuts were hangin heavy, also made my chest tighten up alot.
 
CHAPS said:
I've used Formestane in a transdermal in the past and love the stuff, i wanna see if CNW will offer it in bulk, best case scenerio is if i can get my hands on some injectable Formestane apparently the results are similar to primo when using 500mg/week or so. I noticed my strength was shooting up and my nuts were hangin heavy, also made my chest tighten up alot.
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yeah, it surprised me too. you know BN has it in bulk right?

did the injectable have an ester on it?
 
During my research on various topics I came across this: Invalid Link Removed

Some familiar characters and some enlightenment along the way.
 
The difference between Proviron and unmethylated DHT

From BD's writeup:

Mesterolone is a methylated oral form of dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT does not convert to estrogen. However, in this methylated form, it will bind to the aromatase enzyme and prevent the formation of estrogen from testosterone. Reduced estrogen implies reduced estrogen side effects such as water retention and fat deposition. Mesterolone also has a high ability to bind with sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) in preference over testosterone. The result is that when mesterolone is combined with testosterone, more free testosterone is available for anabolic activity. Mesterolone has been noted to be useful in maintaining libido in the presence of certain other steriods which negatively affect that. Mesterolone should not be used by females as it will have virlizing effects due to its androgenic property.
 
I've been doing this since I began running cycles--I very much prefer a DHT-derivative and its effects vs. an AI. Very, very much prefer.

M5AA is awesome...probably my favorite.
MDHT was kind of weak, IMO
4OHT is Awesome, have it in every trans cycle I run
3AA...hmm...I still have 15g, but haven't used it yet...heard it rules
 
Siznoyton said:
M5AA is awesome...probably my favorite.
MDHT was kind of weak, IMO
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What doses? I believe many underdose them and miss out on the benefits.
3AA...hmm...I still have 15g, but haven't used it yet...heard it rules
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I would concur with this statement.
 
M5AA-->try 100mg. (or more) per day for 30 days :) I remember Big Pete did this at one point, and had very favorabel results.

MDHT-->I only got up to 75mg. per day, and it made me feel grouchy, lethargic, and "off," for lack of a better word. OTOH, 75mg. of M5 and I was ready to rip some serious weight.

Slightly Off Topic...but I believe M-TST is actually a DHT...possibly also mixed with low-dose viagra or similar.
 
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