Aging dog with muscle wasting and prohormones

ericos_bob

Active member
I realize this is uncharted territory as I haven't been able to find any studies involving PH's administered to dogs with the exception of Testosterone and DHEA. I have a 13 year old Great Dane with arthritis who's becoming very frail. He's suffering sarcopenia at an accelerated pace and it's now to a point where I don't think he has much time until he loses the strength to walk. His health markers are otherwise excellent (as per bloodwork) speaking of which my vet just gives me a blank stare when I ask about TRT to boost his muscle mass (he's a neutered male)
In Australia as it turns out, TRT for dogs is not yet a thing. I know in the states it's a bit more progressive as you actually have clinics who specialize in this.

What I do have is a bunch of unopened bottles of halodrol which I bought about 10 years ago before the PH ban. Any chance this would be effective on a dog at low (TRT) doses (let's say 5mg ED) I realize it's a dry compound but considering he's neutered he's already lived a life with minimal estrogen.

I wanted to ask on a dog forum but I figured nah.
 
No disrespect, but I think a 13 year old dog of that size and breed is well past its expected lifespan. I totally understand trying to extend it but a giant breed living that long is a blessing
 
That is an EXCEPTIONAL lifespan for a giant breed. Enjoy what time you have left. And for reference, I am a lifelong companion to animals. I know how you feel.
 
none taken and it is a blessing having him around that long. TBH I'm leaning towards bad idea just for the fact I have no idea of an effective dose, the side effects etc. Just thought I'd throw it out and see what others have to say.
 
ericos_bob said:
none taken and it is a blessing having him around that long. TBH I'm leaning towards bad idea just for the fact I have no idea of an effective dose, the side effects etc. Just thought I'd throw it out and see what others have to say.
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yeah seeing as how that dog has almost doubled a common life span, kudos to you and him both for maintaining health this long, a 13 year old GD is a phenomenal accomplishment! That can only happen in a combination of good genes in him, and fantastic pet ownership/care (you).

If I were you, I would not hesitate to call a dozen different vets for their opinions and ideas, personally. My wife's cousin is a vet and even though I don't agree with all of her ideas, she often has some really interesting ones that I think come from her being a bit on the younger side and not necessarily stuck in an older indoctrinated era's mindset.
 
I empathize with you, regarding your dog, who is like a friend. I have a fondness for animals, myself.

Think about it this way.... If it were your elderly grandfather, I doubt you'd be considering it.

They're strong drugs (steroids) .... And some of the side effects can be Extremely hard on healthy young human males.

:)
 
I had a dog pass way too young and it's rough. I did all the research to try and help and understand. Unfortunately it's life. I'd worry that if you gave that to him and he took a turn for the worse you would blame yourself forever because of the unknown. You can look into other things for health, energy, and joints more on the natural side. (Four Leaf Rover mushroom supplements, turmeric, etc.)
 
Halfnattyman44 said:
I had a dog pass way too young and it's rough. I did all the research to try and help and understand. Unfortunately it's life. I'd worry that if you gave that to him and he took a turn for the worse you would blame yourself forever because of the unknown. You can look into other things for health, energy, and joints more on the natural side. (Four Leaf Rover mushroom supplements, turmeric, etc.)
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Me too, I've never put one down. I've had 3 die in my arms in the last 20 years. My dalmatian was 9, and born with a heart defect so I consider that a win. the GSD was 10, we amputed a toe around age 7 because it was 'cancerous' and he died at full bodyweight, but 2-3 years past expectancy so I consider that a win. My Roxy... a cattle dog, was poisoned by a neighbor last spring. that was the hardest for me maybe.


but thinking about all this and the OP's post. I'd ask what are you feeding the dog now? Since I have had to deal with both sick, and elderly dogs a few times, I can say my wife and I have experiemented a lot with their food to help them put on size and energy when they struggle. we have done things like olive oil on their kibble, raw meat diets like ground beef, when my dalmatian was sick I think I had her on a BRAT style diet for a while.

My wife often will put vitamin E in our GSD's food as well. I can't say whats best but we have had positive results with all of these things, sorta treating them like humans in terms of nutrition/health.
 
Is there a chance he is losing muscle due to lack of activity caused by inflammation in joints?

---Edit Derrr I should have read it 2x LOL. Now I see he has arthritis, so this may certainly apply---

My larger dog was not getting around well at all, and was getting pretty frail. The vet gave him carpofen, an anti-inflammatory, and he is like he regressed in age like 5 years. Actually runs with the younger dogs some. The vet said long term it is not great for his liver, but it is really about quality of life at this point. He is 13yo as well
 
I'm just amazed that you gave a great Dane that old. I had a 21 year old cat pass this February. I'm a big baby for animals so I feel your pain.

As crazy as it sounds to most ppl, myself included. Trt for dogs "Dogotestosterone" is a thing in some places.

But if you believe the animal/human equivalents for dogs and cats ect, A 13 years old great Dane is like a person being 90. If a 90 year old man was going to be put on TRT there would be a lot more considerations then his 50 year old counterpart.

At 13 you gotta think quality vs longevity.
 
Smont said:
As crazy as it sounds to most ppl, myself included. Trt for dogs "Dogotestosterone" is a thing in some places.

But if you believe the animal/human equivalents for dogs and cats ect, A 13 years old great Dane is like a person being 90. If a 90 year old man was going to be put on TRT there would be a lot more considerations then his 50 year old counterpart.
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thats wild, I had to look that up. tons of stuff online about it apparently

Dogosterone ® Testosterone Therapy for Dogs | Animal Care Center of Castle Pines

www.animalcarectr.com www.animalcarectr.com

But what would be a negative to giving a frail man in his 90s TRT?

Smont said:
At 13 you gotta think quality vs longevity.
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When my dalmatian was going, we had to drain her lungs monthly, then twice a month, then weekly in the end. the vet even said "you know, often times you'd think it was time to put her down, but she's really not that uncomfortable, she's happy, wagging her tail, she clearly is smiling at you, so the treatment still seems to be worth it". it was congestive heart failure causing fluid build up that went from June until she died in my arms around Jan 1st 2009. I wish everyone's situation was that easy where they truly want to push it till the end then die naturally. I know unfortunately a lot of people have to make the decision for them.
 
Not a vet, but I would say if you were even considering hormone replacement for him, you should only be considering the compounds people actually use in dogs - testosterone and/or DHEA.

The same way we wouldn’t even consider Halodrol for an old man, it poses a lot more risk/health stress than a small true testosterone dose. I understand you probably don’t have access to that, but Halodrol is not a suitable replacement because it cannot be used safely for any extended period in someone with already-compromised wellness.

As others mentioned, looking at anti-inflammatory for the arthritis would probably be a very possible action item to improve his remaining time.
 
Thanks for the responses.

For arthritis he's been receiving monthly cartophen injections. He's been getting the shots for 4 years now. Initially it was effective quarterly but we're down to the maximum monthly frequency as his condition gradually worsens.

Supplements include rosehip, glucosamine, chondroitin, tumeric.

For extra pain relief paracetamol 500mg before walking him. He can't have NSAIDS as he was diagnosed with stage 2 kidney disease (probably caused by past NSAID's (metacam) prescribed by the vet)

We recently trialed him on Gabapentin but it didn't seem to have any positive effect (beyond initial drowsiness)

The arthritis impedes his ability to move with any pace, so we take our time on shorter more frequent walks. I have bought him some shoes which helped him stop scraping his paws.

In a perfect world it'd be great if we could address both the pain caused by the arthritis and muscle loss. I've actually read a few.

Here's a couple articles I found regarding DHEA supplementation in dogs.

DHEA 2019 – Dr Erik Johnson – Veterinarian

drjohnson.com drjohnson.com
www.linkedin.com

A Cause and Cure for Canine Lupus

[I’ll probably refine and shorten this article as I discuss it with others. For this article pet and dog is synonymous.
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com

The only other option I have available in terms of hormones is 4-DHEA. I bought it as a test base for the halo cycle I never ran. How does it differentiate from DHEA? I could dose it as per recommendation of Dr Johnson.
 
I had to look this one up. Interesting stuff. I also believe there are some drugs set to come to market soon that extend dogs' life by a year or so on average.

1. Hormone-related therapies​


  • Testosterone replacement (TRT):
    In some progressive U.S. veterinary endocrinology practices, there are experimental TRT protocols for neutered male dogs, but these are still very limited and almost always tied to research settings. Australia is even further behind, as you mentioned. Safety and dosing haven’t been standardized.
  • Nandrolone (Deca-Durabolin):
    This anabolic steroid has actually been studied in veterinary contexts (cats with anemia, dogs with certain wasting conditions). It is sometimes used off-label in geriatric or cachectic dogs, but always under strict veterinary supervision because of liver, endocrine, and cardiovascular risks.
  • DHEA: Some studies have explored it in dogs, but again, not common clinical use.
 
Unfortunately you likely wont find a vet that would help with anything like that even if it could help. They aren’t educated in it so they’ll avoid it. My dog had a super rare cancer where the cancer cells would destroy her red blood cells. It took forever to diagnose because it looked like just low RBC which pointed toward an immune condition. Our various Drs including Michigan State (famous vet school) couldn’t help us with anything natural. I ended up giving her turmeric, quercetin, a mushroom blend, CoQ10, chlorophyll, and probably other things I’m forgetting. All without their guidance. I had to be comfortable with it myself. I thought of other things that I didn’t use because of fear it could make things worse. You will just need to either decide to do it or make peace with the fact that there’s nothing more you can do. I know your dog is your best friend and it’s one of the hardest 6 months of my life, but unfortunately they just aren’t here with us long enough.
 
I've had success giving senior dogs cissus and eggshell membrane for joint support. 2-4 caps of cissus daily, 1 cap of eggshell membrane. Took an Eng Bulldog from living on a sofa to walking 5-6 days a week. He was rescued from a friend unable to further care for it. After months with those supps he was acting and getting around like a much much younger dog.

If serious about trt I'd do some research into proper dosage. I've heard Andrew Barry talk about it before on BSG. The amount they need is very very small. You don't want to make a mistake and give them too much.

Big NO on that halodrol idea. I get your thinking tho, no judgment.

Congrats on having a such a great dog/breed at that age.
 
There is some emerging data on HMB in dogs showing it can improve muscle function, recovery, and general activity levels:

Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) improves daily activity and whole-body protein metabolism in Duchenne muscular dystrophy dogs: a pilot study - PMC

Duchenne muscular dystrophy (DMD) is a severe neuromuscular disease due to loss of dystrophin, leading to progressive muscle wasting and physical inactivity. In this pilot study, we studied the effect of daily supplementation of the anabolic ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


It is commonly used in performance dogs/animals atm.
 
I didn't give him anything in the end except lots of love. I took him to the vet for bloodwork to see if we could work out why he'd slowed down so much in the past month as the Gabapentin trial hadn't helped with his arthritis. Bloodwork only returned mild anemia, and his vitals were all perfect, yet I wasn't satisfied so I asked if they could do a scan and they suggested ultrasound. The vets were shocked when they noticed many suspicious growths in his abdomen. I took him to a specialist for a CT scan which revealed he had late-stage cancer. They believe it started in his spline and had metastasized to many organs and throughout his lymphatic system. There were no treatment options, and I opted to have him euthanized.
 
ericos_bob said:
I didn't give him anything in the end except lots of love. I took him to the vet for bloodwork to see if we could work out why he'd slowed down so much in the past month as the Gabapentin trial hadn't helped with his arthritis. Bloodwork only returned mild anemia, and his vitals were all perfect, yet I wasn't satisfied so I asked if they could do a scan and they suggested ultrasound. The vets were shocked when they noticed many suspicious growths in his abdomen. I took him to a specialist for a CT scan which revealed he had late-stage cancer. They believe it started in his spline and had metastasized to many organs and throughout his lymphatic system. There were no treatment options, and I opted to have him euthanized.
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Man, I am so sorry to read this.
 
ericos_bob said:
I didn't give him anything in the end except lots of love. I took him to the vet for bloodwork to see if we could work out why he'd slowed down so much in the past month as the Gabapentin trial hadn't helped with his arthritis. Bloodwork only returned mild anemia, and his vitals were all perfect, yet I wasn't satisfied so I asked if they could do a scan and they suggested ultrasound. The vets were shocked when they noticed many suspicious growths in his abdomen. I took him to a specialist for a CT scan which revealed he had late-stage cancer. They believe it started in his spline and had metastasized to many organs and throughout his lymphatic system. There were no treatment options, and I opted to have him euthanized.
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Man, sorry for your loss…we lost our male Akita to a Copperhead Snake bite last year. Our female is strong and healthy at 8 years old, but anytime we’ve lost one of our dogs it’s like losing a family member. You did the right thing, so he didn’t have to suffer, but I know that doesn’t make it easier. Great job in taking care of him and giving him a long quality life.👍
 
barryrod said:
Is there a chance he is losing muscle due to lack of activity caused by inflammation in joints?

---Edit Derrr I should have read it 2x LOL. Now I see he has arthritis, so this may certainly apply---

My larger dog was not getting around well at all, and was getting pretty frail. The vet gave him carpofen, an anti-inflammatory, and he is like he regressed in age like 5 years. Actually runs with the younger dogs some. The vet said long term it is not great for his liver, but it is really about quality of life at this point. He is 13yo as well
Click to expand...
We said goodbye to our boy, 15 year old pitty adopted at age 4 two weeks ago this Saturday. He was on carprofen for over 4.5 years. We performed labs twice a year. In our boy it changed nothing on labs. Zero effect on kidneys or liver. He had a heart murmur since we got him, and this did not change.

OP sorry for your loss. I'm typing the below for all future folks potential use/needs.

As far as HRT for male neutered dogs my hypothetical case is a n=1. 10mg/wk of test cyp caused almost instant prostate and urination issues. It was a small accident on the carpet every hour or so. Stopped immediately. Tested nandrolone decanoate, used a dose that was less than half the doses used in studies on dogs and nandrolone. 20-40mg/wk was the sweet spot. Zero side effects noted anecdotally and once again our regular lab work showed zero issues.

The combined carprofen, ND, was combined with homemade food since age 5 and weekly hydrotherapy. He had a FCE, think spinal stroke, end of 2023. He made a 90% recovery. Then severely sprained his wrist beginning of this year, we saved him and he fully recovered. He suffered another FCE about 2.5 months ago, the only time the University Vet Medical School had ever seen it happen twice. I spent the last two months expressing his bladder 4-5 times a day manually while he layed on his side, hand feeding meals, and performing daily physical therapy and hydrotherapy. There was glimmers of hope here and there but eventually the hind leg paralysis ascended. He ate full meals till the last day but at 15, roughly 90 human years, it was just too much.

TLDR: Carprofen, works well get lab tests to monitor organ health.
Nandrolone demonstrated significantly lower side effects and is likely preferable for a joint comfort standpoint and less androgenic effects.
Hydrotherapy was life saving and bought us almost 2 more years.
 
BCseacow83 said:
We said goodbye to our boy, 15 year old pitty adopted at age 4 two weeks ago this Saturday. He was on carprofen for over 4.5 years. We performed labs twice a year. In our boy it changed nothing on labs. Zero effect on kidneys or liver. He had a heart murmur since we got him, and this did not change.

OP sorry for your loss. I'm typing the below for all future folks potential use/needs.

As far as HRT for male neutered dogs my hypothetical case is a n=1. 10mg/wk of test cyp caused almost instant prostate and urination issues. It was a small accident on the carpet every hour or so. Stopped immediately. Tested nandrolone decanoate, used a dose that was less than half the doses used in studies on dogs and nandrolone. 20-40mg/wk was the sweet spot. Zero side effects noted anecdotally and once again our regular lab work showed zero issues.

The combined carprofen, ND, was combined with homemade food since age 5 and weekly hydrotherapy. He had a FCE, think spinal stroke, end of 2023. He made a 90% recovery. Then severely sprained his wrist beginning of this year, we saved him and he fully recovered. He suffered another FCE about 2.5 months ago, the only time the University Vet Medical School had ever seen it happen twice. I spent the last two months expressing his bladder 4-5 times a day manually while he layed on his side, hand feeding meals, and performing daily physical therapy and hydrotherapy. There was glimmers of hope here and there but eventually the hind leg paralysis ascended. He ate full meals till the last day but at 15, roughly 90 human years, it was just too much.

TLDR: Carprofen, works well get lab tests to monitor organ health.
Nandrolone demonstrated significantly lower side effects and is likely preferable for a joint comfort standpoint and less androgenic effects.
Hydrotherapy was life saving and bought us almost 2 more years.
Click to expand...
Sorry for your loss, but thanks for posting such good information. Sometimes it’s hard to find a protocol for our pet family members.👍
 
BCseacow83 said:
We said goodbye to our boy, 15 year old pitty adopted at age 4 two weeks ago this Saturday. He was on carprofen for over 4.5 years. We performed labs twice a year. In our boy it changed nothing on labs. Zero effect on kidneys or liver. He had a heart murmur since we got him, and this did not change.

OP sorry for your loss. I'm typing the below for all future folks potential use/needs.

As far as HRT for male neutered dogs my hypothetical case is a n=1. 10mg/wk of test cyp caused almost instant prostate and urination issues. It was a small accident on the carpet every hour or so. Stopped immediately. Tested nandrolone decanoate, used a dose that was less than half the doses used in studies on dogs and nandrolone. 20-40mg/wk was the sweet spot. Zero side effects noted anecdotally and once again our regular lab work showed zero issues.

The combined carprofen, ND, was combined with homemade food since age 5 and weekly hydrotherapy. He had a FCE, think spinal stroke, end of 2023. He made a 90% recovery. Then severely sprained his wrist beginning of this year, we saved him and he fully recovered. He suffered another FCE about 2.5 months ago, the only time the University Vet Medical School had ever seen it happen twice. I spent the last two months expressing his bladder 4-5 times a day manually while he layed on his side, hand feeding meals, and performing daily physical therapy and hydrotherapy. There was glimmers of hope here and there but eventually the hind leg paralysis ascended. He ate full meals till the last day but at 15, roughly 90 human years, it was just too much.

TLDR: Carprofen, works well get lab tests to monitor organ health.
Nandrolone demonstrated significantly lower side effects and is likely preferable for a joint comfort standpoint and less androgenic effects.
Hydrotherapy was life saving and bought us almost 2 more years.
Click to expand...
I am sorry you lost such a loved family member, but thank you so much for sharing your experience for everyone else’s potential benefit. You will never know it of course, but this anecdote may really help others at some point. If even one dog lives better, you will have made a big difference in their family.
 
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