Advice on cutting weight (fat) with the use of supplements.

[TrainOfSpeed]

Hey everyone,

Not sure where this should go, but this forum seems like the closest match.

Quick backstory, I'm 25, I've been lifting for about 5 - 6 or so years now, for the most part, no complaints when it comes to building muscle, I am pretty happy with the rate that has been going. However, no matter what I do I seem to not be able to cut fat beyond a certain point. I am not a pro or anything (not even close) but it sucks that I'm stuck with this fat I can't seem to get rid of. Now, I am sure I could do it if I tried a larger caloric deficit, maybe add substantial cardio and etc, and I've tried that and I know that a) I can't keep it up for that long (my mind is always focused on food in those cases) and b) I seem to actually lose more muscle because the 2 times I've tried this I can see my performance drop drastically and weights that used to be normal become an immense challenge (basically undoable) and then I have to build that back up. Maybe I'm doing something wrong (probably), but honestly, at this point, I'm really really frustrated with this and just want to cut that fat off (it's been like 2 years of me trying).

I've never taken any supplements (unless you count protein powder) but recently heard of Clenbuterol, Albuterol, and Ephedrine (in the context of an EC(A) stack). I have no experience with any of those and only know what I've read. Seems like clen is the big daddy of the three, but comes at a potentially hefty price. Some forums suggest that Albuterol is the "good" alternative that still gives you the results but isn't as taxing on your body. Then there's the EC stack which I've seen praised because apparently you can just go and get the medication from a pharmacy like CVS or something.

The tradeoff I have found so far is that clen seems to be reasonable to get, ephedrine - sort of although the substance Bronkaid that was recommended I actually can't find, and albuterol I can't find in pill form at all (or I've found some but not sure how trustworthy the source is). Here's my question, from your guys' experience which one of the three would you recommend to someone who isn't looking to get particularly big, but wants to cut a significant amount of fat (and ideally keep it that way, but I guess that's a whole nother challenge). Just want to look better, and having less weight would be helpful for my other hobbies like team sports and so on.

From what I've read albuterol seems like the "better" choice, but given that it's hard to find I've been somewhat dissuaded from it. Though if people here say that it's the gentler of the three, I might just have to put in some more effort into finding it.

 

[CasperKValentine]

I can relate to your frustration. I've struggled with losing fat without losing significant muscle. There's been a few times where I end up looking about the same only smaller in general. When you've tried a cut what is your normal calorie deficit? How long do you cut for? I went down the ECA and thermo products route several times without much success. I lost weight quicker but still lost equal fat/muscle. Over the years I found the only thing that works for me is a very slow gradual cut. No more than a 500 calorie deficit and a 1lb of weight loss per week. Also I have to make sure to keep ingesting plenty of protein. Just something to think about. Good luck.

 

[thebigt]

you need to try running...at age 25 and having been lifting for 5-6 years you should find a place that has a measured distance like a track or even use the odometer on your your vehicle and measure out 3 miles. go at a slow enough pace so you can finish the 3 miles even if it means walking until you catch breath then running again...do the 3 miles for a week then start slowly adding distance much the same as a noobie would add on weight in resistance training.

after a month i guarantee you will have lost fat/weight.

 

[TrainOfSpeed]

I can relate to your frustration. I've struggled with losing fat without losing significant muscle. There's been a few times where I end up looking about the same only smaller in general. When you've tried a cut what is your normal calorie deficit? How long do you cut for? I went down the ECA and thermo products route several times without much success. I lost weight quicker but still lost equal fat/muscle. Over the years I found the only thing that works for me is a very slow gradual cut. No more than a 500 calorie deficit and a 1lb of weight loss per week. Also I have to make sure to keep ingesting plenty of protein. Just something to think about. Good luck.

I've tried deficits of around 200 -> 1000 calories and I've observed that if I go above 500 it becomes a huge mental struggle to keep it up for longer than 2 weeks and inevitably I crack and end up on a food binge. As far as how long, a deficit of 200 - 300 I can keep, I would say, for almost indefinitely (or at least I've never done it long enough to crack), but I usually keep going until I've reached the set goal. That deficit is somewhat easy for me to keep (for most days. It's harder on days where there's extra stress at work or something else going on) and I've learned how to shift my macro intake to make sure that I have enough energy to get a proper workout on strength training days. My experience with doing something in the middle (i.e. ~500) is that I can keep it up for maybe a month or so (that also varies with what's going on at work and etc), and gradually food starts to cloud my thinking and what can happen is that a bad day can really throw me off.

Would you recommend going for a larger deficit (i.e. 500) but just a shorter period of time? Also, what do you do after the cut, do you revert to the same pre-cut calorie intake, or do you go up, but to a lower level than when you started?

Now that you've asked me this, I am starting to think I may have had a poor approach and maybe I need to rework what I've been doing.

 

[CasperKValentine]

I've tried deficits of around 200 -> 1000 calories and I've observed that if I go above 500 it becomes a huge mental struggle to keep it up for longer than 2 weeks and inevitably I crack and end up on a food binge. As far as how long, a deficit of 200 - 300 I can keep, I would say, for almost indefinitely (or at least I've never done it long enough to crack), but I usually keep going until I've reached the set goal. That deficit is somewhat easy for me to keep (for most days. It's harder on days where there's extra stress at work or something else going on) and I've learned how to shift my macro intake to make sure that I have enough energy to get a proper workout on strength training days. My experience with doing something in the middle (i.e. ~500) is that I can keep it up for maybe a month or so (that also varies with what's going on at work and etc), and gradually food starts to cloud my thinking and what can happen is that a bad day can really throw me off.

Would you recommend going for a larger deficit (i.e. 500) but just a shorter period of time? Also, what do you do after the cut, do you revert to the same pre-cut calorie intake, or do you go up, but to a lower level than when you started?

Now that you've asked me this, I am starting to think I may have had a poor approach and maybe I need to rework what I've been doing.

Well, you are certainly thinking in the right direction here by trying to get diet dialed in now before adding in anabolics and fat loss aids. There are of course general guidelines and recommendations but what makes things a challenge is that everyone is different and will respond better to different things. I'm 44 so I have had time for plenty of trial and error. Here's my 2 cents. You shouldn't crack at 500 calories below maintenance so that may indicate an underlying issue. First, perhaps you are underestimating your maintenance calories. That can be calculated but again a little trial and error can be needed to be sure. Second, it could be the foods you are eating. Sticking to clean whole foods you should be able to eat enough to keep from getting overly hungry. Find things you can eat on to keep from getting too hungry, that's when cravings start, and it gets easy to go off track. You should be able to find little things to help cut calories. For example, if I'm in a caloric surplus I drink 2% milk and use it in oatmeal and protein shakes. If I'm cutting I substitute the 2% for almond milk. Heck without much of a noticeable change that alone is a couple of hundred calories a day.

After a cut, it's always good to eat a while at the maintenance level, so again it's very important to know your exact maintenance calories. I'd also recommend taking waste measurements or actual body fat % and try not to get too hung up on scale weight. Get things moving in the right direction first then you can add in the weight loss aids later. Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I'm by no means a master, just sharing some of what has worked for me over the years. Hope it helps!

 

[TrainOfSpeed]

you need to try running...at age 25 and having been lifting for 5-6 years you should find a place that has a measured distance like a track or even use the odometer on your your vehicle and measure out 3 miles. go at a slow enough pace so you can finish the 3 miles even if it means walking until you catch breath then running again...do the 3 miles for a week then start slowly adding distance much the same as a noobie would add on weight in resistance training.

after a month i guarantee you will have lost fat/weight.

I do some cardio and play soccer about once a week for 1 - 2 hours. To be honest, I don't have a problem with running (other than it's unfortunately very mundane). When I do run, I do about 6 - 8 miles (at least an hour and 15 minutes) at a medium-intensity pulse rate. I used to do substantially more, but my issue has always been managing strength training, cardio, and food. In other words, I know I can lose weight by significantly increasing how much cardio I do, and having a caloric deficit but anytime I do it even as my weight goes down, the body fat % seems to stay the same (granted I'm doing measurements at home which is very prone to inconsistencies and inaccuracies).

I'd definitely like to avoid anything that can (even potentially) cause damage to my heart (or any other part of the body) but after like years of losing and gaining weight and never being able to go past a certain range, it's so frustrating to spend a month working out like crazy only to realize your weight barely moved and that fat around your waist seems to not have changed at all. Worst of all, is that it seems that a handful of bad days completely undo all that work and it's just completely disheartening.

However, what you said makes me think that maybe I should experiment more with different amounts of cardio and maybe different workout protocols, so thank you for the suggestion.

 

[TrainOfSpeed]

Well, you are certainly thinking in the right direction here by trying to get diet dialed in now before adding in anabolics and fat loss aids. There are of course general guidelines and recommendations but what makes things a challenge is that everyone is different and will respond better to different things. I'm 44 so I have had time for plenty of trial and error. Here's my 2 cents. You shouldn't crack at 500 calories below maintenance so that may indicate an underlying issue. First, perhaps you are underestimating your maintenance calories. That can be calculated but again a little trial and error can be needed to be sure. Second, it could be the foods you are eating. Sticking to clean whole foods you should be able to eat enough to keep from getting overly hungry. Find things you can eat on to keep from getting too hungry, that's when cravings start, and it gets easy to go off track. You should be able to find little things to help cut calories. For example, if I'm in a caloric surplus I drink 2% milk and use it in oatmeal and protein shakes. If I'm cutting I substitute the 2% for almond milk. Heck without much of a noticeable change that alone is a couple of hundred calories a day.

After a cut, it's always good to eat a while at the maintenance level, so again it's very important to know your exact maintenance calories. I'd also recommend taking waste measurements or actual body fat % and try not to get too hung up on scale weight. Get things moving in the right direction first then you can add in the weight loss aids later. Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I'm by no means a master, just sharing some of what has worked for me over the years. Hope it helps!

Thank you for your advice! I think at the very least this has convinced me to keep trying without any aids. As the other person who replied to me said, I feel like I should be able to do this without having to resort to anything extreme. It's just been such a frustrating journey and it seems like I am just stuck. The worst part is having one or two bad days after which I need a couple of days to get rid of those extra pounds.

What do you use to calculate the maintenance calories? Because I've gotten results that don't seem to hold from my observations of myself. I am about 198lbs at 6'2 and some calculators tell me I should be eating like 2400 calories a day to lose about half a pound a week and 2100 to lose about a pound a week. That is if I chose the "Light exercise" option (to be honest I am not 100% where I need to be, so stuck with the more conservative option). I know for sure (after much trial and error) that ever since I started counting calories (maybe 3 years ago) if I eat 2400 I will gain weight, at 2100 I will lose weight very very slowly. I've always wondered why that is, maybe there's something weird about my metabolism or something? Maybe I'm not exercising hard enough, but that feels unlikely since I have a pulsometer and I make sure to hit at least 45 minutes (better an hour) of an elevated heart rate. (I make sure to configure the pulsometer every month or so to re-set the pulse ranges based on the built-in test feature).

 

[mase1]

I would look into your cardio as 6-8 miles in 75 minutes is a walking pace basically 10-13 minutes each mile. Try sprints instead.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

Get on Ursamajor. its all natural and it works like an uncoupling agent. its made from apple peels and helps you hold your mass while dieting down. there are several happy endings on logs kept here on AM.. including a current one now in the supplement log section. it may not help your appetite but well really help you lean out when you stick to it. I have had good success using the intermittent fasting protocol. seems to be the best way around a bad hunger problem. BTW Ursamajor is on sale buy one get one.. this weekend ~ Ursa Major | Ursolic Acid Transdermal – Apex Alchemy (apex-alchemy.com)

 

[BBiceps]

I do some cardio and play soccer about once a week for 1 - 2 hours. To be honest, I don't have a problem with running (other than it's unfortunately very mundane). When I do run, I do about 6 - 8 miles (at least an hour and 15 minutes) at a medium-intensity pulse rate. I used to do substantially more, but my issue has always been managing strength training, cardio, and food. In other words, I know I can lose weight by significantly increasing how much cardio I do, and having a caloric deficit but anytime I do it even as my weight goes down, the body fat % seems to stay the same (granted I'm doing measurements at home which is very prone to inconsistencies and inaccuracies).

I'd definitely like to avoid anything that can (even potentially) cause damage to my heart (or any other part of the body) but after like years of losing and gaining weight and never being able to go past a certain range, it's so frustrating to spend a month working out like crazy only to realize your weight barely moved and that fat around your waist seems to not have changed at all. Worst of all, is that it seems that a handful of bad days completely undo all that work and it's just completely disheartening.

However, what you said makes me think that maybe I should experiment more with different amounts of cardio and maybe different workout protocols, so thank you for the suggestion.

It sounds like you have to do some lifestyle changes with your diet, also I noticed everyone’s “maintenance” cals is not the same, so you might think you eat at your maintenance but if you still stay carry fat you eat a maintenance for that bf %.

 

[BBiceps]

Thank you for your advice! I think at the very least this has convinced me to keep trying without any aids. As the other person who replied to me said, I feel like I should be able to do this without having to resort to anything extreme. It's just been such a frustrating journey and it seems like I am just stuck. The worst part is having one or two bad days after which I need a couple of days to get rid of those extra pounds.

What do you use to calculate the maintenance calories? Because I've gotten results that don't seem to hold from my observations of myself. I am about 198lbs at 6'2 and some calculators tell me I should be eating like 2400 calories a day to lose about half a pound a week and 2100 to lose about a pound a week. That is if I chose the "Light exercise" option (to be honest I am not 100% where I need to be, so stuck with the more conservative option). I know for sure (after much trial and error) that ever since I started counting calories (maybe 3 years ago) if I eat 2400 I will gain weight, at 2100 I will lose weight very very slowly. I've always wondered why that is, maybe there's something weird about my metabolism or something? Maybe I'm not exercising hard enough, but that feels unlikely since I have a pulsometer and I make sure to hit at least 45 minutes (better an hour) of an elevated heart rate. (I make sure to configure the pulsometer every month or so to re-set the pulse ranges based on the built-in test feature).

how much carbs, fat and protein do you eat in those cals?

 

[BigKeysMan]

I answered this with Melatonin on a different thread. I think there are a number of issues about how the metabolism handles fat and I think one of the reasons older people (I am over 60) have more of a problem is that they generate less melatonin. When I started losing weight I was worried about losing some of my upper body strength. I am reasonably strong for my age and although I don't use weights much I do carry around heavy kit when I am performing as a musician. Although I have lost 1/3 of my body mass I don't think I have lost that much muscle in comparison.

I have a weighing machine that tries to work out muscle mass and it says I have lost about 10kg of muscle, but 33kg of fat. How accurate it is I don't know. However, I have tested out putting the PA speakers on their stands (which is difficult because they are heavy and you have to manipulate them quite precisely) and I don't find that any harder than I did (it may even be easier).

Other thread

Which supplement would be the most reasonable to use for getting leaner? - AnabolicMinds.com

EDIT. Didn't read the pinned message and seems like this may not be the right place for my question, since I'm asking about clenbuterol, albuterol and the likes.

anabolicminds.com

 

[Whisky]

Tough one this, depending on how lean you are trying to get there may need to be a reality check.

for many guys they are going single figure body fat without losing significant muscle mass. There’s a reason that every top bodybuilder cuts using anabolics.

I did what you did for years bro, would get a bit stronger but was fatter, would get lean but weaker. Depending on your genetic potential you may need to accept where you are at (just being real with you). Personally I went the anabolic route but I don’t reccomend that.

you sound like you have a good handle on things are the guys above have some great areas look at at so you can probably improve the results ‘a little’ but it’s not going to be night and day difference here. Even with clen (which is somewhat anti catabolic) you’ll lose some muscle/strength on a cut.

personally I would try the ECA stack, it’s pretty effective but relatively safe and side free. That’ll give you an idea of what some assistance can do.

but I’m just trying to manage your expectations here, nothing outside anabolics will maintain your muscle and strength on a cut.

 

[whoareyou]

Try swimming, wrestling, bjj, kickboxing. Something where you aren't focused solely on doing cardio, and there will be a lot of other people trying to lose weight with you. Anything with frequent intervals of explosive movement will melt a lot of fat.