Adrafinil stacked with MAOI herbs

[Delboss731]

I am a college student who struggles with focusing and being motivated to do school work and study. I also have anxiety that I treat with natural herbs like Ashwaganda, Rhoidiola, Kava Kava, Magnolia bark, ect.. I have tried adrafinil in the past by itself and loved the effects. I would like to try it again but would it be safe to take alongside natural herbs that have MAOI properties such as Curcumin, black pepper extract, Rhoidiola, Kava Kava, ect... Thank you.

 

[Delboss731]

I would also add that I do enjoy eating cheese quite frequently. I suppose what I'm worried about is all of these combinations of supplements and food causing a risk of serotonin syndrome. Perhaps my anxiety is what makes me worried about things too much.

 

[KvanH]

I would also add that I do enjoy eating cheese quite frequently. I suppose what I'm worried about is all of these combinations of supplements and food causing a risk of serotonin syndrome. Perhaps my anxiety is what makes me worried about things too much.

Well anything you mentioned here shouldn't interact with serotonin I think. With dopamine possibly and with noradrenaline yes. But generally most herbs that have mao inhibiting properties are very weak at that. And the ones you mention would be very weak based on my understanding. It's the pharma maoi's that you have to be careful with.

 

[Delboss731]

Well anything you mentioned here shouldn't interact with serotonin I think. With dopamine possibly and with noradrenaline yes. But generally most herbs that have mao inhibiting properties are very weak at that. And the ones you mention would be very weak based on my understanding. It's the pharma maoi's that you have to be careful with.

So you're saying I should be fine if I add adrafinil to my stack? I love natural nootropics. They work so well. Just not to the same magnitude as adrafinil.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

Switching A Patient To Or From A Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor (MAOI) Intended To Treat Psychiatric Disorders
At least 14 days should elapse between discontinuation of an MAOI intended to treat psychiatric disorders and initiation of therapy with Anafranil. Conversely, at least 14 days should be allowed after stopping Anafranil before starting an MAOI intended to treat psychiatric disorders (see Invalid Link Removed).
Use Of Anafranil With Other MAOIs, Such As Linezolid Or Methylene Blue
Do not start Anafranil in a patient who is being treated with linezolid or intravenous methylene blue because there is increased risk of serotonin syndrome. In a patient who requires more urgent treatment of a psychiatric condition, other interventions, including hospitalization, should be considered (see Invalid Link Removed).

In some cases, a patient already receiving Anafranil therapy may require urgent treatment with linezolid or intravenous methylene blue. If acceptable alternatives to linezolid or intravenous methylene blue treatment are not available and the potential benefits of linezolid or intravenous methylene blue treatment are judged to outweigh the risks of serotonin syndrome in a particular patient, Anafranil should be stopped promptly, and linezolid or intravenous methylene blue can be administered. The patient should be monitored for symptoms of serotonin syndrome for two weeks or until 24 hours after the last dose of linezolid or intravenous methylene blue, whichever comes first. Therapy with Anafranil may be resumed 24 hours after the last dose of linezolid or intravenous methylene blue (Invalid Link Removed).
The risk of administering methylene blue by non-intravenous routes (such as oral tablets or by local injection) or in intravenous doses much lower than 1 mg/kg with Anafranil is unclear. The clinician should, nevertheless, be aware of the possibility of emergent symptoms of serotonin syndrome with such use (see Invalid Link Removed).


From Invalid Link Removed

 

[KvanH]

Switching A Patient To Or From A Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor (MAOI) Intended To Treat Psychiatric Disorders
At least 14 days should elapse between discontinuation of an MAOI intended to treat psychiatric disorders and initiation of therapy with Anafranil. Conversely, at least 14 days should be allowed after stopping Anafranil before starting an MAOI intended to treat psychiatric disorders (see Invalid Link Removed).
Use Of Anafranil With Other MAOIs, Such As Linezolid Or Methylene Blue
Do not start Anafranil in a patient who is being treated with linezolid or intravenous methylene blue because there is increased risk of serotonin syndrome. In a patient who requires more urgent treatment of a psychiatric condition, other interventions, including hospitalization, should be considered (see Invalid Link Removed).

In some cases, a patient already receiving Anafranil therapy may require urgent treatment with linezolid or intravenous methylene blue. If acceptable alternatives to linezolid or intravenous methylene blue treatment are not available and the potential benefits of linezolid or intravenous methylene blue treatment are judged to outweigh the risks of serotonin syndrome in a particular patient, Anafranil should be stopped promptly, and linezolid or intravenous methylene blue can be administered. The patient should be monitored for symptoms of serotonin syndrome for two weeks or until 24 hours after the last dose of linezolid or intravenous methylene blue, whichever comes first. Therapy with Anafranil may be resumed 24 hours after the last dose of linezolid or intravenous methylene blue (Invalid Link Removed).
The risk of administering methylene blue by non-intravenous routes (such as oral tablets or by local injection) or in intravenous doses much lower than 1 mg/kg with Anafranil is unclear. The clinician should, nevertheless, be aware of the possibility of emergent symptoms of serotonin syndrome with such use (see Invalid Link Removed).


From Invalid Link Removed

What does this have to do with OP's question?

 

[sns8778]

I am a college student who struggles with focusing and being motivated to do school work and study. I also have anxiety that I treat with natural herbs like Ashwaganda, Rhoidiola, Kava Kava, Magnolia bark, ect.. I have tried adrafinil in the past by itself and loved the effects. I would like to try it again but would it be safe to take alongside natural herbs that have MAOI properties such as Curcumin, black pepper extract, Rhoidiola, Kava Kava, ect... Thank you.

It isn't really known how Adrafinil will interact with a lot of things because it hasn't been well researched alongside other things, so all that anyone can offer would be a guess - and my guess is that you should be fine. If it were me, I would only use it on the days I felt like I really needed to.

For focus and motivation purposes, have you looked at our Focus XT product? It is pretty much the perfect nootropic base product and is great for what you are explaining. We make a version with caffeine & teacrine and a caffeine free version.
https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/products/focus-xt-series/

Also, for stress & anxiety, we make a product called Stress & Anxiety Support that contains clinically researched Sensoril Ashwagandha, Rhodiola, Bacopa, and Theanine. I use it daily and it helps me a lot. There are a lot of good reviews on this forum about it. We are currently out of it direct but some retailers have it in stock. We should have it back in hopefully in 2 weeks.

To read about it:
https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/stress-anxiety-support/

Here is the link to an excellent log on it:

SNS Stress & Anxiety Support Log - AnabolicMinds.com

Invalid Link Removed I am very appreciative and thankful to be able to log this for SNS! Steve (SNS owner) is a stand-up guy and as transparent as it comes. He sent me a bottle of this new product before it was even released because he knows I battle with anxiety. My hopes for this product is...

anabolicminds.com

We also make a KannaEase product that is a highly concentrated version of Kanna that is great for focus, motivation, stress, and anxiety. Here is a link to read on that:
https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/kannaease-120-veg-caps/

I would also add that I do enjoy eating cheese quite frequently. I suppose what I'm worried about is all of these combinations of supplements and food causing a risk of serotonin syndrome. Perhaps my anxiety is what makes me worried about things too much.

I live off of cheese myself, so I can relate haha.

Anxiety can definitely make you over think and worry. It's always important to be cautious though.

The risk of Serotonin Syndrome is a real thing, but it mostly applies to pharmaceuticals. If you think about it, there are so many people in the world on one or more antidepressants that are also prescribed Adderall for example.

Well anything you mentioned here shouldn't interact with serotonin I think. With dopamine possibly and with noradrenaline yes. But generally most herbs that have mao inhibiting properties are very weak at that. And the ones you mention would be very weak based on my understanding. It's the pharma maoi's that you have to be careful with.

Good post. And I agree.

So you're saying I should be fine if I add adrafinil to my stack? I love natural nootropics. They work so well. Just not to the same magnitude as adrafinil.

The reason that I included Focus XT in my post above is that you said that you love natural nootropics. That's a passion of mine as well.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

What does this have to do with OP's question?

It plainly states MAOIs are contraindicated (not to be taken with Adafranil) and anyone who is on an MAOI should wait 14 days after stopping the MAOI before starting adafranil.

 

[KvanH]

It plainly states MAOIs are contraindicated (not to be taken with Adafranil) and anyone who is on an MAOI should wait 14 days after stopping the MAOI before starting adafranil.

Yes it does. But as OP is talking about Adrafinil (not Adafranil) and herbal supplements that have a mao inhibiting properties and not pharmaceutical maoi's, it really has very little to nothing to do with OP's question.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

Yes it does. But as OP is talking about Adrafinil (not Adafranil) and herbal supplements that have a mao inhibiting properties and not pharmaceutical maoi's, it really has very little to nothing to do with OP's question.

I beg to differ. MAOI containing supplements can absolutely cause what is known as the cheese effect when taken in combination with Adrafinil.

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This typically results with anything containing Tyramine. I don't know whether any of the supps mentioned by OP, so I don't know if they contain Tyramine or not. But this can happen with other supplements. It's also a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, so I would avoid supplements like l-dopa.

Having said all that. Taking Adafinil with supplements that contain very small doses of any kind of MAOI would most likely have NO effect on you what soever. But, it's in the clinical pharmacology of the drug, so just keep it in mind and do some research before you take a supplement along with it. Examine.com is a great place to do that.

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[sns8778]

I've spoke my opinion already on the OP's initial question so I'm not going to comment anymore on that.

But I wanted to comment on examine.com and say that I used to think it was a great place to go for information on certain things. And it still is for some things. But some of the info is now outdated or incomplete on many things. That's no fault of theirs really, they grew so quickly and have so many listings, it would be impossible to keep up with. It's still a good resource but I'd continue to research past that.

For example, for the new products and products coming up, I don't think I've seen it have complete information on hardly any of them except for the very, very commonly used ones.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

I've spoke my opinion already on the OP's initial question so I'm not going to comment anymore on that.

But I wanted to comment on examine.com and say that I used to think it was a great place to go for information on certain things. And it still is for some things. But some of the info is now outdated or incomplete on many things. That's no fault of theirs really, they grew so quickly and have so many listings, it would be impossible to keep up with. It's still a good resource but I'd continue to research past that.

For example, for the new products and products coming up, I don't think I've seen it have complete information on hardly any of them except for the very, very commonly used ones.

Well, it is hard to keep up with every new ingredient that comes out and write a huge article with it with all the studies, graphs, and other information they use.

Is there another site you use for that info?

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

Speaking of MAOIs, @Mike Arnold has a very interesting stimulant product that is an MAOI. It's called Methyl Blue. I'd love to try it, but I'm on SSRIs.

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[KvanH]

We also make a KannaEase product that is a highly concentrated version of Kanna that is great for focus, motivation, stress, and anxiety. Here is a link to read on that:
https://seriousnutritionsolutions.com/product/kannaease-120-veg-caps/

This brings to mind; I saw a Kanna product on a supplement site and it said it to work as an SSRI. What's your take on that?

 

[sns8778]

Well, it is hard to keep up with every new ingredient that comes out and write a huge article with it with all the studies, graphs, and other information they use.

Is there another site you use for that info?

No, that was my point. I don't think there is just one good site. I think its important to do research in more than one place.

I didn't put them down at all. Your post seems defensive of them, but I never put them down. I said in my post they probably do the best hat they can do.

But I wanted to comment on examine.com and say that I used to think it was a great place to go for information on certain things. And it still is for some things. But some of the info is now outdated or incomplete on many things. That's no fault of theirs really, they grew so quickly and have so many listings, it would be impossible to keep up with. It's still a good resource but I'd continue to research past that.

 

[sns8778]

This brings to mind; I saw a Kanna product on a supplement site and it said it to work as an SSRI. What's your take on that?

One of the issues with Kanna that I address is the KannaEase write up is that there are a lot of different constituents and that's why the dosage for Kanna supplements is all over the place. Some of them you literally have to take grams per day. Whereas with KannaEase, you only take 50 mg. because its highly concentrated.

So do I think that Kanna may have some SSRI effects, some of the constituents may at high doses.

Do I think KannaEase does? I can't say for sure yes or no as to it having any at all; but I don't feel like it has enough to be any type of risk if it does. But of course we do the standard warning on every supplement that if you're taking any prescription medication to check with your doctor before use, etc.

 

[KvanH]

One of the issues with Kanna that I address is the KannaEase write up is that there are a lot of different constituents and that's why the dosage for Kanna supplements is all over the place. Some of them you literally have to take grams per day. Whereas with KannaEase, you only take 50 mg. because its highly concentrated.

So do I think that Kanna may have some SSRI effects, some of the constituents may at high doses.

Do I think KannaEase does? I can't say for sure yes or no as to it having any at all; but I don't feel like it has enough to be any type of risk if it does. But of course we do the standard warning on every supplement that if you're taking any prescription medication to check with your doctor before use, etc.

Thanks. That's pretty much what I thought, just wanted to hear your take on it. I think the whole "SSRI" is a problematic term. Inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin is just a quality/mechanism of action, but the term has become synonymous or has a strong relation in peoples minds with the pharmaceutical depression medicines, that utilize the inhibitation of serotonin reuptake. A substance can have so low ssri property, that on a practical level it's completely meaningless. Or have a slight inhibiting effect, that increases the effects of serotonin a little, but is in no situation dangerous. Or could be so strong at it that it becomes deadly.

 

[sns8778]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I thought, just wanted to hear your take on it. I think the whole "SSRI" is a problematic term. Inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin is just a quality/mechanism of action, but the term has began synonymous or has a strong relation in peoples minds with the pharmaceutical depression medicines, that utilize the inhibitation of serotonin reuptake. A substance can have so low ssri property, that on a practical level it's completely meaningless. Or have a slight inhibiting effect, that increases the effects of serotonin a little, but is in no situation dangerous. Or could be so strong at it that it becomes deadly.

I agree and think that you have a very good understanding of it.

I always find it crazy to see posts where people are so worried about SSRI effects but then in other threads the same poster may be talking about using basically illegal stimulants and SARM's or research chemicals. I'd be 1000% more worried about sides from those stims or cross contamination or the SARM's/research chemicals not being what they're supposed to be than possible SSRI issues.

If you think about it, there are so many people on more than one prescription antidepressant that can affect and and then sometimes on Adderall on top of that.

 

[sns8778]

Purely anecdotal, but I’ve used Rx modafinil and armodafinil & otc adrafinil with a plethora of supplements that could affect metabolism of drugs. I’ve never had a negative interaction with finils and other otc or Rx substances, only things that are synergistic with the wakefulness effect (what you may suspect - caffeine and other stims). Finils and a cup of coffee is a fine combo IMO for plowing through menial work. I never noticed enhanced or negative effects from absorption enhancing add-ons. If serotonin syndrome was a possibility here I guess I would have been hospitalized a decade+ ago with interactions. Just my experience.

I think that's the thing about the possibility of serotonin syndrome. Possibility doesn't mean probability. It is something that some people are likely more prone to than others but it most commonly happens when people are abusing things, not using things.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

No, that was my point. I don't think there is just one good site. I think its important to do research in more than one place.

I didn't put them down at all. Your post seems defensive of them, but I never put them down. I said in my post they probably do the best hat they can do.

Maybe I am a little defensive of them, because I think they are a good source for information and one of the best to go to online for pretty much up to date supplement information.

But I wanted to comment on examine.com and say that I used to think it was a great place to go for information on certain things. And it still is for some things. But some of the info is now outdated or incomplete on many things. That's no fault of theirs really, they grew so quickly and have so many listings, it would be impossible to keep up with. It's still a good resource but I'd continue to research past that.

Fair enough.

One of the issues with Kanna that I address is the KannaEase write up is that there are a lot of different constituents and that's why the dosage for Kanna supplements is all over the place. Some of them you literally have to take grams per day. Whereas with KannaEase, you only take 50 mg. because its highly concentrated.

So do I think that Kanna may have some SSRI effects, some of the constituents may at high doses.

Do I think KannaEase does? I can't say for sure yes or no as to it having any at all; but I don't feel like it has enough to be any type of risk if it does. But of course we do the standard warning on every supplement that if you're taking any prescription medication to check with your doctor before use, etc.

I think that's the thing about the possibility of serotonin syndrome. Possibility doesn't mean probability. It is something that some people are likely more prone to than others but it most commonly happens when people are abusing things, not using things.

Having had serotonin syndrome myself from accidentally taking a supplement with 5HTP in it I can tell you it is absolutely horrible. If there's even the possibility that that could happen, I would put a warning about it on the label.

I will tell you what happens during serotonin syndrome. Your muscles completely stop working. You can't move, you can't get up, you can't roll over in bed, and it's unbelievably painful in the muscle. I went to the ER for it the first time I had it, and they didn't know what it was. But I think they were dealing with lots of COVID patients at the time and didn't have time to perform a full Sherlock Holmes investigation on me. So they gave me a hydrocodone and an rx for an NSAID and sent me home. It was only after I got it again and it was much more incredibly worse, so bad I don't think I could even get up and get in a car to get to the ER, that I put two and two together and realized that it was probably my SSRI and Remeron, a sleeping that's a tricyclic antidepressant.

Now, would this happen to everyone? No, but if you have a highly concentrated form of Kanna, and someone on medication takes it, I would say there is the potential there for that to happen. But, I know I'm not going to be the one to sign up to test it.

It's not until you get negative user reports, complaints from the FDA, or something else, that you'll know whether Kanna can cause serotonin syndrome.

 

[KvanH]

Maybe I am a little defensive of them, because I think they are a good source for information and one of the best to go to online for pretty much up to date supplement information.



Fair enough.




Having had serotonin syndrome myself from accidentally taking a supplement with 5HTP in it I can tell you it is absolutely horrible. If there's even the possibility that that could happen, I would put a warning about it on the label.

I will tell you what happens during serotonin syndrome. Your muscles completely stop working. You can't move, you can't get up, you can't roll over in bed, and it's unbelievably painful in the muscle. I went to the ER for it the first time I had it, and they didn't know what it was. But I think they were dealing with lots of COVID patients at the time and didn't have time to perform a full Sherlock Holmes investigation on me. So they gave me a hydrocodone and an rx for an NSAID and sent me home. It was only after I got it again and it was much more incredibly worse, so bad I don't think I could even get up and get in a car to get to the ER, that I put two and two together and realized that it was probably my SSRI and Remeron, a sleeping that's a tricyclic antidepressant.

Now, would this happen to everyone? No, but if you have a highly concentrated form of Kanna, and someone on medication takes it, I would say there is the potential there for that to happen. But, I know I'm not going to be the one to sign up to test it.

It's not until you get negative user reports, complaints from the FDA, or something else, that you'll know whether Kanna can cause serotonin syndrome.

Dang, that's rough. I've heard serotonin syndrom can lead to death. Have you thought about stopping the ssri's? How long have you used them?

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

Dang, that's rough. I've heard serotonin syndrom can lead to death. Have you thought about stopping the ssri's? How long have you used them?

No, I need the SSRIs unfortunately. I have sever comorbid depression with sever anxiety. I'm on a ton of different meds including Trintellix 10mg (SSRI), Buspar 15mg (serotonin 5-HT1A receptor agonist used to treat anxiety), Rexulti (anti-psychotic) 1mg, which has the benefits without the antipsychotic effects, Lyrica (gabapentanoid) for anxiety, Valium 10mg a day for anxiety and Remeron 30mg before bed for sleep, along with 10mg of lithium orotate.

 

[KvanH]

No, I need the SSRIs unfortunately. I have sever comorbid depression with sever anxiety. I'm on a ton of different meds including Trintellix 10mg (SSRI), Buspar 15mg (serotonin 5-HT1A receptor agonist used to treat anxiety), Rexulti (anti-psychotic) 1mg, which has the benefits without the antipsychotic effects, Lyrica (gabapentanoid) for anxiety, Valium 10mg a day for anxiety and Remeron 30mg before bed for sleep, along with 10mg of lithium orotate.

Dude.. If you really need those then I guess.. I would try my hardest to work my way out of using most of those meds. But since you've been prescribed those I guess you've had/are having some really rough time. To me the coctail is just.. Wow

 

[sns8778]

Having had serotonin syndrome myself from accidentally taking a supplement with 5HTP in it I can tell you it is absolutely horrible. If there's even the possibility that that could happen, I would put a warning about it on the label.

I will tell you what happens during serotonin syndrome. Your muscles completely stop working. You can't move, you can't get up, you can't roll over in bed, and it's unbelievably painful in the muscle. I went to the ER for it the first time I had it, and they didn't know what it was. But I think they were dealing with lots of COVID patients at the time and didn't have time to perform a full Sherlock Holmes investigation on me. So they gave me a hydrocodone and an rx for an NSAID and sent me home. It was only after I got it again and it was much more incredibly worse, so bad I don't think I could even get up and get in a car to get to the ER, that I put two and two together and realized that it was probably my SSRI and Remeron, a sleeping that's a tricyclic antidepressant.

Now, would this happen to everyone? No, but if you have a highly concentrated form of Kanna, and someone on medication takes it, I would say there is the potential there for that to happen. But, I know I'm not going to be the one to sign up to test it.

It's not until you get negative user reports, complaints from the FDA, or something else, that you'll know whether Kanna can cause serotonin syndrome.

Sometimes I feel like you disagree with me or other people without really reading our posts.

You disagree with me here and then go on to say that you were already taking an SSRI and Remeron. If you go back and read my posts, I have said multiple times in this thread to look at how many people are taking more than one prescription medication that affects serotonin and that its normally medications that cause serotonin syndrome.

You then post like you are disagreeing with me and then share your own experience of having it because you accidentally took a supplement containing 5-HTP while you were taking an SSRI and Remeron. But that was my entire point - you are already taking prescription medications that affect it.

You didn't get serotonin syndrome from being a person taking natural nootropics and adrafinil like the OP is asking about. You said got it from accidentally taking something with 5-HTP on top of medications that already affect it.

I know a lot of people take your posts the wrong way, and I always try to be cordial and give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't need to be told by you how to label products.

Which again, it seems like you didn't really read my post that specifically says - our warnings state that anyone taking any prescription medication should ask their doctor before using it.

If you really think you know more about Kanna than me, I'll let you think what you want.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

Sometimes I feel like you disagree with me or other people without really reading our posts.

You disagree with me here and then go on to say that you were already taking an SSRI and Remeron. If you go back and read my posts, I have said multiple times in this thread to look at how many people are taking more than one prescription medication that affects serotonin and that its normally medications that cause serotonin syndrome.

It's not my intention to disagree with you just out of spite or anything. All I'm saying is having serotonin syndrome is terrible and it's not something to be taken lightly. True, I was taking multiple anti-depressants with serotonin effects, but when you introduce a supplement to the market that has that potential, what's the harm of adding a small warning label on it for people taking prescription medication?

You then post like you are disagreeing with me and then share your own experience of having it because you accidentally took a supplement containing 5-HTP while you were taking an SSRI and Remeron. But that was my entire point - you are already taking prescription medications that affect it.

I don't understand the point you're making here. Yes, it was my fault for taking a supplement with 5HTP, but in my defense, it was labeled as nomenclature as oxitriptan.

I mean, I can't emphasize enough the pain and misery of serotonin syndrome. All supplement bottles say "Check with your doctor yada yada" on them and everyone ignores that. My simple suggestion would be to simply add text that reads "Don't take this supplement with any anti-depressants, including SSRIs and MAOIs".

You didn't get serotonin syndrome from being a person taking natural nootropics and adrafinil like the OP is asking about. You said got it from accidentally taking something with 5-HTP on top of medications that already affect it.

Well, as I mentioned above, OP would not get serotonin syndrome from taking a supplement with an MAOI, he would get the cheese effect caused by Tyramine, which is found in some weight loss supplements on their own, and is found in a variety of natural foods and other ingredients.

I know a lot of people take your posts the wrong way, and I always try to be cordial and give you the benefit of the doubt, but I don't need to be told by you how to label products.

I appreciate your civility, but I think you should take a step back from "I know everything about this supplement, so I can just ignore what this guy is saying" and maybe consider that maybe you don't know everything. There's always room to learn and everyone can benefit from knowledge gained by YEARS of usage of this compound by rec drug users. Because Kanna is not new to the market. I bought it years ago from a company as a sample, but never really got around to testing it. Not to mention it is technically illegal in Louisiana.

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Caution Notice
May interfere with neurally active pharmaceuticals due to having a similar mechanism

Simple notice, right?

It is thought that this is relevant to supplementation of Kanna as serotonin reuptake inhibits are used in the treatment of anxietyInvalid Link Removed and oral ingestion of 25mg of a 2:1 concentrated extract has been noted to affect the amygdala of humans reducing state anxiety.Invalid Link Removed

Some alkaloids in Kanna have affinity towards the serotonin transporter, particularly mesembrine, which is thought to occur after administration of Kanna due to the low concentration required

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Serotonin Reuptake Inhibition
Invalid Link Removed is a neurotransmitter with a wide array of important functions in your brain and in the rest of your body. It regulates mood,Invalid Link Removed, food intake, and a variety of behaviors.

Low serotonin levels or activity in certain parts of the brain can worsen mood and may lead to depression. On the other hand, activating specific serotonin receptors can trigger a psychedelic state with powerful feelings of mysticism and importance [Invalid Link Removed,Invalid Link Removed,Invalid Link Removed].

Mesembrine from kanna is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor: it prevents serotonin from being absorbed and hidden away in the neurons. This could potentially allow serotonin to stay active for longer and have a stronger effect on the brain. This may also explain the mind-expanding effects of kanna some users report, although these have not been scientifically confirmed [Invalid Link Removed].

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Although I can't paste text from this study, it's one of the main one used to support kanna benefits and barely touches the surface of kanna being a 5HT agonist

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Which again, it seems like you didn't really read my post that specifically says - our warnings state that anyone taking any prescription medication should ask their doctor before using it.

I mean, that's just for legal reasons and everyone knows it. No one reads those warnings, it's like, do you sit down and read the terms of service when you install new software? Of course not. Just like the warning that "These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA..." no one reads that.

If you really think you know more about Kanna than me, I'll let you think what you want.

Well, then tell me. I'm all ears if you know whether or not kanna can cause serotonin syndrome. I don't believe it can cause it on it's own, unless it's abused with super high doses (which some people do).

But just take some consideration for the mentally disabled, like myself, who could potentially buy this supplement because it says it has anti-anxiety and mood boosting properties and then discover it contraindicates their medication.

 

[sns8778]

It's not my intention to disagree with you just out of spite or anything. All I'm saying is having serotonin syndrome is terrible and it's not something to be taken lightly. True, I was taking multiple anti-depressants with serotonin effects, but when you introduce a supplement to the market that has that potential, what's the harm of adding a small warning label on it for people taking prescription medication?

I don't understand the point you're making here. Yes, it was my fault for taking a supplement with 5HTP, but in my defense, it was labeled as nomenclature as oxitriptan.

I mean, I can't emphasize enough the pain and misery of serotonin syndrome. All supplement bottles say "Check with your doctor yada yada" on them and everyone ignores that. My simple suggestion would be to simply add text that reads "Don't take this supplement with any anti-depressants, including SSRIs and MAOIs".

Well, as I mentioned above, OP would not get serotonin syndrome from taking a supplement with an MAOI, he would get the cheese effect caused by Tyramine, which is found in some weight loss supplements on their own, and is found in a variety of natural foods and other ingredients.

I appreciate your civility, but I think you should take a step back from "I know everything about this supplement, so I can just ignore what this guy is saying" and maybe consider that maybe you don't know everything. There's always room to learn and everyone can benefit from knowledge gained by YEARS of usage of this compound by rec drug users. Because Kanna is not new to the market. I bought it years ago from a company as a sample, but never really got around to testing it. Not to mention it is technically illegal in Louisiana.

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Simple notice, right?



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Although I can't paste text from this study, it's one of the main one used to support kanna benefits and barely touches the surface of kanna being a 5HT agonist

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I mean, that's just for legal reasons and everyone knows it. No one reads those warnings, it's like, do you sit down and read the terms of service when you install new software? Of course not. Just like the warning that "These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA..." no one reads that.



Well, then tell me. I'm all ears if you know whether or not kanna can cause serotonin syndrome. I don't believe it can cause it on it's own, unless it's abused with super high doses (which some people do).

But just take some consideration for the mentally disabled, like myself, who could potentially buy this supplement because it says it has anti-anxiety and mood boosting properties and then discover it contraindicates their medication.

Remember what I said about you seeming to disagree without really reading posts?
2 times I've said in this very thread that we have a warning that states to ask your physician before taking products if you are taking ANY medication.

^^^^ I'm sorry if you feel that people ignore a warning that says that they should ask their doctor before using supplements if they are taking any medication. The word ANY is much more inclusive than singling out specific things.

If you don't believe that, think about it like this - in your very last paragraph, you said to take some consideration that a mentally disabled person could potentially - that's what you don't seem to understand. Some people, especially people with mental disabilities may not understand or know what SSRI's, etc. are - hence, the word ANY. By saying ANY, you are telling them if they are taking ANY prescription medication to check with their physician. That way you aren't making an assumption that they understand terminology that they may not.

I didn't say you getting Serotonin Syndrome was necessarily your fault. I said that the situation you are speaking on is not applicable to the question that the OP asked; and that you're coming off like you're trying to scare people away from natural nootropics because of a personal experience that you had that is not applicable to that situation bc you are on prescriptions that make it much more likely to occur.

I never said I knew everything about Kanna. I explained myself very clearly in this thread as to why a specifically concentrated extract would likely not be an issue for anyone that isn't taking a medication that makes it more likely.

I love to learn about ingredients and I spent a very long time researching different variations of Kanna and speaking with multiple branded ingredient companies, and also the growers and harvesters about the different active constituents and how/why it varies so wildly, which leads to such a dramatic difference from one brand and supplier to the other. Let me add on - we are not selling KannaEase for recreational drug users so their experiences with different types and strains doesn't really interest me. What does is the specific constituents in Kanna that can be effective for people suffering from stress and anxiety.

You went thru all of that and then said - I don't believe it can cause it on it's own, unless it's abused with super high doses (which some people do).
^^^^ That was literally my entire damn point and why I feel like you didn't read my posts and just want to argue - That I do not feel like it would on its own, unless people were taking it with SSRI's and it may not even then. (No company can control what anyone chooses to abuse).


I'm done with this. It takes a lot to actually piss me off and make me not want to post here. This is like going in circles.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

Remember what I said about you seeming to disagree without really reading posts?
2 times I've said in this very thread that we have a warning that states to ask your physician before taking products if you are taking ANY medication.

^^^^ I'm sorry if you feel that people ignore a warning that says that they should ask their doctor before using supplements if they are taking any medication. The word ANY is much more inclusive than singling out specific things.

I absolutely contend people ignore those warnings. If you want to see for yourself, download the last CSV file from the FDA at the link below and you can import it into Excel or LibreOffice Calc and see the list of THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of adverse effect reports of supplements and food products.

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I don't know how to say this without being insulting, but putting that "check with a doctor warning" is just a legal cop out for if a person has an adverse effect, they can't sue because they didn't follow the directions on the label.

If you don't believe that, think about it like this - in your very last paragraph, you said to take some consideration that a mentally disabled person could potentially - that's what you don't seem to understand. Some people, especially people with mental disabilities may not understand or know what SSRI's, etc. are - hence, the word ANY. By saying ANY, you are telling them if they are taking ANY prescription medication to check with their physician. That way you aren't making an assumption that they understand terminology that they may not.

I think you're underestimating the average consumer. If SSRI is too broad a term, just say antidepressant and that will cover everything.

I didn't say you getting Serotonin Syndrome was necessarily your fault. I said that the situation you are speaking on is not applicable to the question that the OP asked; and that you're coming off like you're trying to scare people away from natural nootropics because of a personal experience that you had that is not applicable to that situation bc you are on prescriptions that make it much more likely to occur.

That's not at all my intention. I think Kanna has potential for real benefits. I would love to take Kanna. There's plenty of other stuff I'd love to take, like microdosing psychedelics, but I can't because they attach to the serotonin receptor.

My only intention is to let people know, in the OP's case, what the literature says. It specifically says in the literature not to take an MAOI with adafanil. So, the OP can take that information as he will and do what he wants.

Adrafinil stacked with MAOI herbs - AnabolicMinds.com

I am a college student who struggles with focusing and being motivated to do school work and study. I also have anxiety that I treat with natural herbs like Ashwaganda, Rhoidiola, Kava Kava, Magnolia bark, ect.. I have tried adrafinil in the past by itself and loved the effects. I would like to...

anabolicminds.com

I love to learn about ingredients and I spent a very long time researching different variations of Kanna and speaking with multiple branded ingredient companies, and also the growers and harvesters about the different active constituents and how/why it varies so wildly, which leads to such a dramatic difference from one brand and supplier to the other. Let me add on - we are not selling KannaEase for recreational drug users so their experiences with different types and strains doesn't really interest me. What does is the specific constituents in Kanna that can be effective for people suffering from stress and anxiety.

I think that's great. I think Kanna really can help with stress and anxiety. I've never said Kanna is a bad compound, or it shouldn't be taken or used.

You went thru all of that and then said - I don't believe it can cause it on it's own, unless it's abused with super high doses (which some people do).
^^^^ That was literally my entire damn point and why I feel like you didn't read my posts and just want to argue - That I do not feel like it would on its own, unless people were taking it with SSRI's and it may not even then. (No company can control what anyone chooses to abuse).

I'm getting tired of arguing about this over and over. You made your point, and I made mine. You believe that the label saying "check with a doctor" is sufficient, I disagree and would like to see one more line added to the warning label on the bottles. That's it.

 

[sns8778]

I absolutely contend people ignore those warnings. If you want to see for yourself, download the last CSV file from the FDA at the link below and you can import it into Excel or LibreOffice Calc and see the list of THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of adverse effect reports of supplements and food products.

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I don't know how to say this without being insulting, but putting that "check with a doctor warning" is just a legal cop out for if a person has an adverse effect, they can't sue because they didn't follow the directions on the label.

I think you're underestimating the average consumer. If SSRI is too broad a term, just say antidepressant and that will cover everything.

That's not at all my intention. I think Kanna has potential for real benefits. I would love to take Kanna. There's plenty of other stuff I'd love to take, like microdosing psychedelics, but I can't because they attach to the serotonin receptor.

My only intention is to let people know, in the OP's case, what the literature says. It specifically says in the literature not to take an MAOI with adafanil. So, the OP can take that information as he will and do what he wants.

Adrafinil stacked with MAOI herbs - AnabolicMinds.com

I am a college student who struggles with focusing and being motivated to do school work and study. I also have anxiety that I treat with natural herbs like Ashwaganda, Rhoidiola, Kava Kava, Magnolia bark, ect.. I have tried adrafinil in the past by itself and loved the effects. I would like to...

anabolicminds.com

I think that's great. I think Kanna really can help with stress and anxiety. I've never said Kanna is a bad compound, or it shouldn't be taken or used.

I'm getting tired of arguing about this over and over. You made your point, and I made mine. You believe that the label saying "check with a doctor" is sufficient, I disagree and would like to see one more line added to the warning label on the bottles. That's it.

You post a link to adverse reports - No one ever said that people don't have adverse effects from dietary supplements. You're acting like anyone actually said that somewhere in this thread and they didn't. You reply that to the part like you're saying its companies faults if people ignore a warning on a bottle. The fact that people do have adverse reports to some things makes the stance of checking with their doctor before using ANY dietary supplements more valid.

If someone chooses to ignore a warning, that's not the companies fault. That's personal choice. Not sure how hard that is to understand. You say you think its a legal copout for companies to put on labels that people should check with their physician before using any supplements - no, that's them being thorough bc there's absolutely no way that every company can cover every possible reaction with a particular medicine. Therefore, many choose to tell their customers to check with their physician before using any dietary supplement. A company should never assume that all customers understand all terminology. And guess what? The broad warnings actually cost some companies money and business bc they lose some customers that are on medications. But its the responsible thing to do.

And again, the OP asked a question about natural nootropics and you keep comparing your situation being on multiple SSRI's and antidepressants to someone asking a question about mixing natural things with Adrafinil.

I'm at the point that I regret defending you in the other threads where people have said that you were argumentative and insulting. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'll honestly tell you that you've ruined my entire day and I don't need this crap. It's honestly stuff like this that's made me take a break from posting in the past and very well may again after this. This is ridiculous.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

I don't want to argue about this anymore. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[KvanH]

@sns8778 you echoed so many of my thoughts here from the last few days.. I sincerely hope you don't reduce your posting here due to this kind of stuff. Many of us here really like having you around.

Regards,
A friend

 

[tenorguy33]

@sns8778 you echoed so many of my thoughts here from the las few days.. I sincerely hope you don't reduce your posting here due to this kind of stuff. Many of us here really like having you around.

Regards,
A friend

Well said, and agreed,

 

[tenorguy33]

@sns8778 you echoed so many of my thoughts here from the las few days.. I sincerely hope you don't reduce your posting here due to this kind of stuff. Many of us here really like having you around.

Regards,
A friend

Well said, and agreed,

 

[sns8778]

@sns8778 you echoed so many of my thoughts here from the last few days.. I sincerely hope you don't reduce your posting here due to this kind of stuff. Many of us here really like having you around.

Regards,
A friend

Well said, and agreed,

3rd agreeance that sns’s postings are appreciated!

After not acknowledging that his posting support (post 5) and possibly some subsequent statements were about an entirely different drug than this thread was about (Post 5 is clearly stated to be drug literature for ANAFRANIL / clomipramine) and then all the rest, I have a feeling I’m going to enjoy enabling the ignore feature for the first time.

I really appreciate it. I really enjoy helping people. I try my best for us to offer everyone the types of products that they want and I try to help people in threads, whether it pertains to our products or not (like in this case, we've never made an Adrafinil product, I was just trying to help the original poster).

We have so much going on that I've literally worked 70+ hours a week since December and still try to post here and help everyone that I can. But I want that time to go towards helping people, not towards bickering and arguing.

I try to always be respectful to everyone - I never put other companies down or point out things or take shots at things that some of them do that to me are very obvious that aren't legit. I know a lot about a lot of ingredients but never want to come off as the person trying to talk over peoples heads - I always try to explain things in a way that everyone can understand.

Something I don't talk about hardly at all, if ever, is that I also consult for other brands and help them with formulas, manufacturing, adhering to labeling laws, etc. Point being that I damn sure don't need to be argued with and told how to do a product label &/or to have my days ruined and what little free time I do have messed up due to arguing with someone on the forum, especially when it has zero to do with the person I was trying to help to begin with.

I really do appreciate everyone's kind words. It means a lot.

 

[Delboss731]

Thank you all for everything. I never wanted anyone to argue here. It's all love here. A community of people sharing information and knowledge. Bless you all and thanks for the replys. I'll probably just skip adrafinil and stick with the natural nootropics.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

@sns8778 you echoed so many of my thoughts here from the last few days.. I sincerely hope you don't reduce your posting here due to this kind of stuff. Many of us here really like having you around.

Regards,
A friend

I consider @sns8778 to be a friend, and extremely well versed with the ins and outs of supplements, supplement manufacturing, distribution and everything related. We just got a little bit heated in this thread over a disagreement and I hope we can put it behind us. We just had a different opinion on something and were very passionate in our arguments for and against the subject.

I just got to a point where I said I'm done with this, this is taking too much out of me, is too stressful, and I don't want to insult or belittle @sns8778 in any way, so I just called it.

 

[N2ofusion]

Why not ask the doctor who’s prescribing you all this if it’s safe to add Kanna? I don’t get why you come to a supplement thread to complain about supplements. They pretty much all have the same warnings. If that’s your concern discuss with your doctor and leave it there.

 

[sns8778]

Thank you all for everything. I never wanted anyone to argue here. It's all love here. A community of people sharing information and knowledge. Bless you all and thanks for the replys. I'll probably just skip adrafinil and stick with the natural nootropics.

It's not your fault at all. It's never my intention to argue with anyone. I try my best to help everyone on AM the best that I can. And I happen to love nootropics as well; so that was me trying to help you and getting to discuss an area that I really enjoy.

As for Adrafinil, I think if you want to use it occasionally, you wouldn't have any issues with it. I personally have only ever used it a few times but that's because I crash very badly from it and it gives me headaches after I use it.

My personal daily nootropic stack is:
- Focus XT - which I feel is the perfect base nootropic product.
- Stress & Anxiety Support (Sensoril Ashwagandha, Rhodiola, Bacopa, & Theanine) - 1 cap twice daily with additional capsules as needed on particularly stressful days
- KannaEase - 1 cap per day; which I started off as taking as needed but I really like its ability to help me focus and think thru times of stress and help me stay calm bc I get easily overwhelmed; so I take it almost every day now.

I want to also add that we're open to offering any new nootropics that people would like to see from us as long as they are compliant/legal. So if anyone has suggestions, please let us know.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

@sns8778 I noticed you didn't reply to my post above. I hope we're still cool. I meant no offense by anything I said.

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[Darksalchemist]

So you're saying I should be fine if I add adrafinil to my stack? I love natural nootropics. They work so well. Just not to the same magnitude as adrafinil.

I would not take adrafinil every day, nor would I take Kava Kava everyday since they both can be hard on your liver from my understanding.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

I would not take adrafinil every day, nor would I take Kava Kava everyday since they both can be hard on your liver from my understanding.

Well, adrafinil is a prodrug for modafinil, so I assume it probably makes that conversion in the liver. Kava can be hard on your liver, but it appears to be in individuals that already have liver problems. There used to be this concern that it could cause liver/kidney problems because some manufacturers were using the root of the kava instead of the plant itself, which is why there's that big long warning on kava bottles. It also seems to be down to poor manufacturing practices by some kava vendors.

Many reported adverse events, but a few of them do appear to be related to either Kava itself (and some unforeseen prior condition to the person's liver) or the combination of Kava with something else; causation has not been placed, but it would be prudent to assume a link for now

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But, if you trust your mfg, that shouldn't be an issue and AFAIK, nobody uses the root anymore, that was just some rogue vendor who didn't know what they were doing.

I always order my kava from kalmwithkava.com. I order the micronized loa woka and I mix it up in a teacup with about one spoonful of kava and one spoonful of sunflower lecithin, which binds to the kavalactones to make it more potent and drink it down.

But, taking kava and adrafinil on the same day would pretty much be counterintuitive. You don't want to take a sedative and a stimulant at the same time, obviously.

I couldn't find any references to kava being an MAOI on examine.com or wikipedia, so I don't think that would be problematic.

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Like I mentioned, you want to avoid stuff with tyramine, which is going to be what is going to be your main concern when taking an MAOI.

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So, check your supplements against examine.com, wikipedia, and other sources to see if there's any mention of tyramine or maoi and if there's nothing there you should be golden.

 

[sns8778]

Kava can be hard on your liver, but it appears to be in individuals that already have liver problems. There used to be this concern that it could cause liver/kidney problems because some manufacturers were using the root of the kava instead of the plant itself, which is why there's that big long warning on kava bottles. It also seems to be down to poor manufacturing practices by some kava vendors.

Please stop spreading false information about supplements. I've tried my best to be nice about this, but you posting misinformation is not fair to people that may read it and take it as the truth or towards companies it may cost sales to.

To you, it may not be a big deal or even matter if you post the wrong information about a product or ingredient, but to people that read and believe your posts like this, it can lead them in a completely wrong direction. And to the companies that offer products that you post misinformation about, its their livelihood.

I really would like to believe that you mean well, but if you do, I want to encourage you to fact check yourself before you post.

We don't even make a Kava product so I have no vested interest in this issue; but part of what you just posted is false.

Kava & The Liver:
Kava can be hard on your liver but most of these cases have been linked mostly to people who either had preexisting conditions or were taking other substances &/or medications that could be hard on your liver. If I recall correctly, there were around 5 cases in which they thought may be attributed to Kava itself. (I'm not saying you were wrong on that part; I'm just expanding on what you said with more detail).

Absolutely False That You Posted:
- The issue with Kava DOES NOT relate to it being because some manufacturers are using the Root like you said. That is NOT true. The root is the part of the Kava plant that has been shown to be most effective for stress, anxiety, etc.

You stating that the issue with Kava was because some manufacturers were using the root is very misleading to anyone reading and very unfair to companies that offer Kava root capsules. You're insinuating that some the largest, most trusted, multi-million dollar herb companies on the market aren't smart enough to know what they're doing. Companies like NOW Foods, Gaia Herbs, etc.

Why do companies use the root extract?
The active ingredient in Kava that is thought to be responsible for the effects that most people use it for (stress, anxiety, relaxation, etc.) are called Kavalactones.

What part of the plant has the highest Kavalactone content? The root.

 

[RIPDanDuchaine]

Absolutely False That You Posted:
- The issue with Kava DOES NOT relate to it being because some manufacturers are using the Root like you said. That is NOT true. The root is the part of the Kava plant that has been shown to be most effective for stress, anxiety, etc.

You stating that the issue with Kava was because some manufacturers were using the root is very misleading to anyone reading and very unfair to companies that offer Kava root capsules. You're insinuating that some the largest, most trusted, multi-million dollar herb companies on the market aren't smart enough to know what they're doing. Companies like NOW Foods, Gaia Herbs, etc.

Why do companies use the root extract?
The active ingredient in Kava that is thought to be responsible for the effects that most people use it for (stress, anxiety, relaxation, etc.) are called Kavalactones.

What part of the plant has the highest Kavalactone content? The root.

You're completely right, I was wrong on the root being the issue with kava. What I was thinking of was the FDA issuing an advisory against Kava with what I remember being some sort of manufacturing process problem that caused liver failure in a bunch of people.

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Or perhaps it had to do with a bunch of people abusing kava.

Use of kava at frequent high doses causes kava dermopathy (3,52,53). Mathews et al. (54) conducted a pilot health survey of kava users in Australian aboriginals. The survey involved 39 kava users, including 20 very heavy users (mean consumption 440 g/week), 15 heavy users (310 g/week), and 4 occasional users (100 g/week), as well as 34 non-users. The heavy use of kava appeared to be related to malnutrition and weight loss, liver damage (causing elevated serum γ-glutamyl transferase and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels), renal dysfunction, rashes, pulmonary hypertension, macrocytosis of red cells, lymphocytopenia, and decreasing platelet volumes. Acute kava usage caused reversible anesthesia of the mouth and skin, euphoria, sedation, muscle weakness, ataxia and, eventually, intoxication. Schelosky et al. (55) reported that four patients took kava and confronted with central dopaminergic antagonism. Kava is a spinal depressant, causing transient ataxia or uncoordinated walk (53). Pfeiffer (56) found that intake of crude root had effective antiepileptic properties.

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