Adding Test to Existing Protocol on a Cut

[AfroPope]

So here's the basics.

I am 32, been training for 11-ish years. Due to an injury when I was younger, my HTPA is already basically shut down and I have been running HCG monotherapy with anastrozole under a doctor's supervision for about six years. As of my last exam a month ago my test had been holding in the 600-700 range with E2 in the mid- to low twenties for that same six year time frame (I get blood work every six months) and I am still fertile.

Given that I was already shut down, I figured there was no harm in running gear. I've run most orals I can think of. After enjoying that, I ran my first "real" cycle about seven years ago and it was nuts - if memory serves I was running 1g of tren and 500mg of test C a week on a twelve week cycle. I gained an enormous amount of muscle and strength with almost zero side effects, getting up to almost 220 at around 20% body fat, and then promptly got injured in a car crash right before starting PCT and lost all my gains. However, as noted by the above blood work, there was no lasting damage from the cycle. I mention this to say that I am not a newbie, I've just forgotten a lot.

I am currently 5'9", 198, cutting down from a starting weight 210 around 30% body fat. After major back surgery at the very end of 2019 (not related to the car crash, I just seem to get grievously injured once every 3 - 5 years) I decided I just wanted to get as strong as possible and under the guidance of a coach and eating as much as I could, I went from bed-ridden, not able to walk, to 1RM maxes of 335, 245, 455 S/B/D in just over a year, but of course I gained a good amount of fat in the process. So it goes.

Currently I am cutting on 2200 cal per day and working with a nutritionist, so that's in check - I am losing about a pound a week and am maintaining, and on some lifts gaining, strength.

So this is all great!

My question is... what if it could be even better?

What if I am recently single after six years and want to look my absolute best this summer? What if I want to have visible abs for the first time in my life? What if I wanted to throw some test into the mix, and lose that fat and gain that strength a little faster? Would this be inadvisable? How would you approach this? Would you run something else? Trying to keep it mild as things are pretty dialed in for now, but I am just thinking out loud about "what could I be doing even better."

Just thinking out loud for now. Thoughts from more experienced guys appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[Smont]

I thought I was gonna have a answer but after reading about the extensive HCG use I can't answer, I don't know a single person who's Dr. Put them on a long term HCG protocol like that without the use of testosterone.

I will say this, testosterone isn't going to give you abs, it will make gaining weight easier tho, especially if your putting yourself above the natural range.

If you want abs you gotta eat your way there. Abs are made in the kitchen.

I also don't know how adding test will screw with your HCG protocol and I hate the idea of hcg as a primary treatment for low t. Soooooo, ya that's all I got, sorry

 

[AfroPope]

No worries, I appreciate the input. He's a good doctor here at a local research university, I used to work with the doctor who discovered you could use Clomid for PCT until he retired (in his eighties, the absolute madman) and I now see his protege - so I don't have any doubts of his credentials and I can't argue with the results. He thinks that since my body produces test with the help of the HCG, adding test long-term is more trouble than it's worth, which I tend to agree with.

I also know abs being built in the kitchen, etc - I am seeing great results on my current diet/exercise protocol and am completely fine to continue it as I've got everything pretty dialed in.

But there's a nagging little part of me that's like "okay... but what if we could make this work even better." Thus the thread.

 

[AfroPope]

Also I assume a lot of folks are not going to be familiar with long term HCG so I'll just go into a little about that in case anyone reading is curious. I will start with the caveat that this is based on conversations I had with my doctor like six years ago, so a couple details here or there might be fuzzy and this is all very simplified.

Basically there's two kinds of low t - primary and secondary. Primary means you have low t but high to normal LH/FSH, secondary means you have low t and low LH/FSH - LH/FSH, for all intents and purposes, being the hormones that signal to your body that it needs to produce more testosterone. If you are primary, basically, you are getting enough LH/FSH but your body can't or won't make enough testosterone, so the problem lies in the testes and you go on T. If you are secondary, the first line of treatment (after ruling out pituitary tumors) is to try to get the body to produce more LH/FSH. Previously this was done with Clomid or Nolva, which is why they are part of PCT - however, one big problem with Clomid, which I ran into, is that testosterone produced by administration of clomid does not aromatize - your body makes more testosterone AND estrogen, instead of just making more testosterone and having some of it aromatize into estrogen. This isn't a big deal in PCT as it's only for a couple of weeks, but it means that with long term clomid administration, your E2 can absolutely skyrocket and you will feel even worse, which is what happened to me - my testosterone was in the 600s but my E2 was something insane like 70-80pg/mL. Conversely, HCG is very similar to LH, and the testosterone produced by administration of HCG does aromatize, which means you can manage it with an AI like anastrozole. So that's what I've been doing and it's been working pretty well according to my bloodwork. I am under the impression that this is starting to become the standard treatment for secondary low t (as opposed to clomid, which was the standard 10-ish years ago).

Anyway, not super relevant to the question at hand, just wanted to explain why we are doing what we are doing in case anyone was curious!

 

[Smont]

No worries, I appreciate the input. He's a good doctor here at a local research university, I used to work with the doctor who discovered you could use Clomid for PCT until he retired (in his eighties, the absolute madman) and I now see his protege - so I don't have any doubts of his credentials and I can't argue with the results. He thinks that since my body produces test with the help of the HCG, adding test long-term is more trouble than it's worth, which I tend to agree with.

I also know abs being built in the kitchen, etc - I am seeing great results on my current diet/exercise protocol and am completely fine to continue it as I've got everything pretty dialed in.

But there's a nagging little part of me that's like "okay... but what if we could make this work even better." Thus the thread.

I'm not a Dr. But the HCG is sending a artificial signal to produce testosterone, if you were to stop hcg it would only be a matter of time before you had zero testosterone, but, here's my problem with your Dr.

If your testicles still had the ability 7 years ago to produce testosterone with the help of hcg, it's very likely that your low testosterone problem was fixable. But instead of fixing it he used the HCG as a Band-Aid. Now after 7 years on hcg it's definitely not fixable. So who cares if your using HCG to produce testosterone or just straight taking testosterone, I'd much rather just take testosterone and call it a wrap. That's just me personally. I guess my opinion is biased because I enjoy testosterone, I will be on it the rest of my life whether I need it or not lol

 

[AfroPope]

Well, without getting too off-topic, it was a very carefully considered decision we made after a lot of tests and trial and error, and it is one I am still happy with. No disrespect to you of course as you obviously know your stuff! But I am going to defer to my doctor on that side of things.

That being the case, it sounds like the answer to the question I asked in the OP is “might help, might not, you’re kind of in uncharted territory with your treatment protocol anyway,” which is sort of what I was thinking might be the case when I made the thread.

 

[Smont]

Well, without getting too off-topic, it was a very carefully considered decision we made after a lot of tests and trial and error, and it is one I am still happy with. No disrespect to you of course as you obviously know your stuff! But I am going to defer to my doctor on that side of things.

That being the case, it sounds like the answer to the question I asked in the OP is “might help, might not, you’re kind of in uncharted territory with your treatment protocol anyway,” which is sort of what I was thinking might be the case when I made the thread.

All I did was give my personal opinion on preference of testosterone, I'm certainly not trying to change your mind or change a protocol that's working for you. If it's been working and you enjoy it it would be foolish to change it.

 

[Smont]

Because I don't know much about the type and treatment you're receiving I don't feel comfortable guessing and I certainly don't want to pretend I know something that I don't. So I'm gonna just watch from the bleachers and see if anybody else has any ideas

 

[AfroPope]

All I did was give my personal opinion on preference of testosterone, I'm certainly not trying to change your mind or change a protocol that's working for you. If it's been working and you enjoy it it would be foolish to change it.

Understood, I appreciate the clarification. Test is fun, that’s for sure. I also realize that I have a fairly unfriendly-sounding writer’s voice sometimes, so I didn’t want you to think I didn’t appreciate your input!

 

[Smont]

Understood, I appreciate the clarification. Test is fun, that’s for sure. I also realize that I have a fairly unfriendly-sounding writer’s voice sometimes, so I didn’t want you to think I didn’t appreciate your input!

Nope, I didn't think that at all. I was just putting some clarification into my previous post. I didn't wanna sound like I know more then a Dr. And I also wanted to be clear that I don't even fully understand the treatment as it's not your typical trt/hrt

 

[Smont]

I also have a tendency to make my opinion sound like "I'm right" and I don't mean to, just sometimes I read something and respond too fast to add enough context or explanation. I just try to stab straight to the point im trying to make, and it comes off wrong

 

[match]

No worries, I appreciate the input. He's a good doctor here at a local research university, I used to work with the doctor who discovered you could use Clomid for PCT until he retired (in his eighties, the absolute madman) and I now see his protege - so I don't have any doubts of his credentials and I can't argue with the results. He thinks that since my body produces test with the help of the HCG, adding test long-term is more trouble than it's worth, which I tend to agree with.

I also know abs being built in the kitchen, etc - I am seeing great results on my current diet/exercise protocol and am completely fine to continue it as I've got everything pretty dialed in.

But there's a nagging little part of me that's like "okay... but what if we could make this work even better." Thus the thread.

Really appreciate your explanation of your history and your current treatment, I found it very interesting.

To get back to your question of "how could I make it better", you said you are working with a nutritionist. Would you say that your diet is 100% clean? Are you ever taking cheat days/meals, and are they allowed on your diet? Do you do any fasting or restrict your meal times in any way (such as not eating after 8pm or before 11am, that kind of thing). Do you prep your meals weekly? Do you log your meals? Do you track your macros, and if so, what are they? How many meals a day?

I think Smont is spot on when he says that you're gonna make or break these goals in the kitchen, that's why I'm asking these questions. Also, just want to state that I'm neither the diet expert nor the #1 example when it comes to a perfect diet on these boards; but the more of this info you can give, the more likely you are to get a response from some of the real experts here when it comes to meeting bf% goals.

 

[gphagan1]

I agree with Smont in that most Doctors, whether it is an Endocrinologist or TRT clinic, add HCG with testosterone or test by itself, even with secondary low T from Pituitary issues.
You did say he checked for tumors, so I would assume he checked for other underlying causes or disease before starting you on this protocol. Since it seems to be working, I would say stay the course, because as Smont said you lower body fat in the kitchen and with cardio. Most men aromatize higher at body fat levels above 17%-18%, and it sounds like your heading in the right direction with your diet, but if you add the test now you may find your estrogen shoots up more than your comfortable with, and if you increase your AI you may see more sides. I would stay the course, and say when your body fat is around 15% then revisit the idea of adding test.

 

[AfroPope]

Really appreciate your explanation of your history and your current treatment, I found it very interesting.

To get back to your question of "how could I make it better", you said you are working with a nutritionist. Would you say that your diet is 100% clean? Are you ever taking cheat days/meals, and are they allowed on your diet? Do you do any fasting or restrict your meal times in any way (such as not eating after 8pm or before 11am, that kind of thing). Do you prep your meals weekly? Do you log your meals? Do you track your macros, and if so, what are they? How many meals a day?

I think Smont is spot on when he says that you're gonna make or break these goals in the kitchen, that's why I'm asking these questions. Also, just want to state that I'm neither the diet expert nor the #1 example when it comes to a perfect diet on these boards; but the more of this info you can give, the more likely you are to get a response from some of the real experts here when it comes to meeting bf% goals.

Diet is clean, I take one cheat meal a week and even those are pretty clean - I've been on a big asian cooking kick over the past year or two so I'll make some curry, kung pao chicken, pad thai, whatever. I rarely go out to eat and I don't drink much alcohol (one to two beers with my cheat meals but otherwise virtually none). I'm on 2178 calories a day at 161g protein and then filling the rest with carbs and fat - the guy I am working with says that as long as you're hitting your protein and calories, the split between carbs and fat doesn't matter as much as many people think they do unless you're in contest prep or otherwise competing. I believe I have heard/read similar things from Layne Norton, Lyle McDonald, and Chris Duffin, and, again, I'm losing about a pound a week from diet, lifting, and light cardio so who am I to argue with those results. That said I usually end up with about a 60/40 split between carbs/fat in those remaining calories. I have tried low carb, carb cycling, keto, etc but had a lot of trouble with adherence and they weren't sustainable long term. Assuming I stay the course as I am I'll be down another 20lbs of fat by summer and that suits me just fine. But, you know, never hurts to ask if you can get there quicker without having to do more cardio. Ha!

EDIT: forgot to mention I am doing IF with an eating window of 12:30pm to 8:30pm with my largest meal after my workouts. Usually have a small lunch, afternoon snack, large post workout meal.

I agree with Smont in that most Doctors, whether it is an Endocrinologist or TRT clinic, add HCG with testosterone or test by itself, even with secondary low T from Pituitary issues.
You did say he checked for tumors, so I would assume he checked for other underlying causes or disease before starting you on this protocol. Since it seems to be working, I would say stay the course, because as Smont said you lower body fat in the kitchen and with cardio. Most men aromatize higher at body fat levels above 17%-18%, and it sounds like your heading in the right direction with your diet, but if you add the test now you may find your estrogen shoots up more than your comfortable with, and if you increase your AI you may see more sides. I would stay the course, and say when your body fat is around 15% then revisit the idea of adding test.

Yeah, re adding T, my recollection - and again this was six or seven years ago now so don't quote me on this - is that he basically said that at the age I was at, mid twenties and engaged at the time to a woman I wanted to have kids with, he was cautious about adding T due to the potential for fertility issues and he wasn't convinced that the TRT clinic protocol of T + HCG + Anastrozole has any real benefit over HCG monotherapy if it works, which it does in my case. Which is not to knock that as a protocol, just that he thought it was better to start with as few drugs as possible and then add T if necessary rather than starting me on both at once if the T ended up being extraneous.

Good call on the body fat and AI observations.

I appreciate you guys!

 

[Smont]

Diet is clean, I take one cheat meal a week and even those are pretty clean - I've been on a big asian cooking kick over the past year or two so I'll make some curry, kung pao chicken, pad thai, whatever. I rarely go out to eat and I don't drink much alcohol (one to two beers with my cheat meals but otherwise virtually none). I'm on 2178 calories a day at 161g protein and then filling the rest with carbs and fat - the guy I am working with says that as long as you're hitting your protein and calories, the split between carbs and fat doesn't matter as much as many people think they do unless you're in contest prep or otherwise competing. I believe I have heard/read similar things from Layne Norton, Lyle McDonald, and Chris Duffin, and, again, I'm losing about a pound a week from diet, lifting, and light cardio so who am I to argue with those results. That said I usually end up with about a 60/40 split between carbs/fat in those remaining calories. I have tried low carb, carb cycling, keto, etc but had a lot of trouble with adherence and they weren't sustainable long term. Assuming I stay the course as I am I'll be down another 20lbs of fat by summer and that suits me just fine. But, you know, never hurts to ask if you can get there quicker without having to do more cardio. Ha!

EDIT: forgot to mention I am doing IF with an eating window of 12:30pm to 8:30pm with my largest meal after my workouts. Usually have a small lunch, afternoon snack, large post workout meal.


Yeah, re adding T, my recollection - and again this was six or seven years ago now so don't quote me on this - is that he basically said that at the age I was at, mid twenties and engaged at the time to a woman I wanted to have kids with, he was cautious about adding T due to the potential for fertility issues and he wasn't convinced that the TRT clinic protocol of T + HCG + Anastrozole has any real benefit over HCG monotherapy if it works, which it does in my case. Which is not to knock that as a protocol, just that he thought it was better to start with as few drugs as possible and then add T if necessary rather than starting me on both at once if the T ended up being extraneous.

Good call on the body fat and AI observations.

I appreciate you guys!

I diet in a similar fashion, total calories and protein is typically what I track. I did however notice that when my other macros are lower fat higher carb I had better results. Not so much from a weight loss standpoint, that pretty much stayed on a similar patch but my energy was higher physically and mentally and my body composition changes seemed to be more noticeable, then the very last few weeks of my cut I lowered carbs and replaced them with more vegetables and my digestion got screwed up a bit.

So even tho tracking things like protein and calories is more important and alwayworks for me. Pay attention cus I learned over the years what my body prefers.

I don't do good with high fat, I need to keep my fiber under a certain amount, stuff like that. So using those things I set up my diet based around protein and calories and even though I'm not counting the carbs and fat I know to make my meals higher carb lower fat and have a moderate amount of fiber

 

[AfroPope]

Yeah, after you've been doing this for long enough you figure out what works. Perhaps an important detail I left out of this is that my sophomore year of college ~12 years ago I was closer to 55% body fat and I dieted down to about 20% (just shy of 80lbs lost) so this ain't my first rodeo. I do naturally tend to do higher carb and lower fat, except on cheat meals where I'm like "**** it, stir fry some chicken thighs in four tablespoons of peanut oil, add coconut milk..."

but, you know. Generally speaking, you learn what your body likes best.

 

[AfroPope]

Alright, bumping this back up. I've cut about 20 lbs so far, just shy of one pound a week through diet almost exclusively. I am going to take a brief break and eat at maintenance for a few weeks before reassessing and cutting back down. My math says that this will put that last ten pounds off me in early June assuming I make no other changes, back of the napkin math - given that I have lost virtually no strength on this cut, my 1RMs on my big three are within 15-20lbs of where they were five months ago - I'll be around 180 at 17-18% body fat.

So let's say I want to start planning a very simple test cycle for after that in service of recomposition. I've been out of the game for a long time and I've forgotten most of what I knew. Is 500mg/week Test C or E, pinned E3D for 12-16 weeks while eating at a mild caloric surplus still the move? Remember I already have prescriptions for HCG and Anastrozole and will continue to use those as directed.

 

[Smont]

Alright, bumping this back up. I've cut about 20 lbs so far, just shy of one pound a week through diet almost exclusively. I am going to take a brief break and eat at maintenance for a few weeks before reassessing and cutting back down. My math says that this will put that last ten pounds off me in early June assuming I make no other changes, back of the napkin math - given that I have lost virtually no strength on this cut, my 1RMs on my big three are within 15-20lbs of where they were five months ago - I'll be around 180 at 17-18% body fat.

So let's say I want to start planning a very simple test cycle for after that in service of recomposition. I've been out of the game for a long time and I've forgotten most of what I knew. Is 500mg/week Test C or E, pinned E3D for 12-16 weeks while eating at a mild caloric surplus still the move? Remember I already have prescriptions for HCG and Anastrozole and will continue to use those as directed.

I'm pretty lean at 200lbs, visible abs and all that. Not quite as lean as in my Avatar photo but not terribly off. But any who. My point I'm getting to is Im only on 300mg test and 200 masteron and I think In your situation 300 test would be sufficient for your goal, I prefer pinning anywhere from daily to every other day or Monday Wednesday Friday at the worst, to avoid acne and stuff like that. But if your goal is to recomp and your body fat is still that high 17% or whatever that I would be adding 300 mg of testosterone and eating in a slight deficit. Or technically what I really would do is diet till my abs we're completely visible and then I would start.

But I really do think you should go with 300 over 500 and the reason being is that there's not a huge difference in results (if any at all) between 300 and 500 so why waste the extra gear?

 

[AfroPope]

Cool, just want to start thinking about what to do and do it right, I'll see where I am in a couple more weeks. 300 sounds great. Everything I'd been reading said 300-500 so I figured I'd shoot on the high end and ask. Appreciate the help as always!

 

[BBiceps]

I diet in a similar fashion, total calories and protein is typically what I track. I did however notice that when my other macros are lower fat higher carb I had better results. Not so much from a weight loss standpoint, that pretty much stayed on a similar patch but my energy was higher physically and mentally and my body composition changes seemed to be more noticeable, then the very last few weeks of my cut I lowered carbs and replaced them with more vegetables and my digestion got screwed up a bit.

So even tho tracking things like protein and calories is more important and alwayworks for me. Pay attention cus I learned over the years what my body prefers.

I don't do good with high fat, I need to keep my fiber under a certain amount, stuff like that. So using those things I set up my diet based around protein and calories and even though I'm not counting the carbs and fat I know to make my meals higher carb lower fat and have a moderate amount of fiber

This is another good example that everyone is different because I look a lot better with high fat/low carbs than the other way around, no noticeable difference in performance either way.

I’m @3300 cals it comes out to about 310/120/250 p/f/c.

 

[Smont]

Cool, just want to start thinking about what to do and do it right, I'll see where I am in a couple more weeks. 300 sounds great. Everything I'd been reading said 300-500 so I figured I'd shoot on the high end and ask. Appreciate the help as always!

Even if you wanna do 500 or 600 or whatever, I would still start low and work up. I always have the mind set start for the lowest effective dose but I heard someone not too long ago make a great point, if you start at say 1ml or 250/300 and you start adding 50-100 every 2 weeks, eventually when you get to the point you're starting to see side effects you know that all you got to do is go back down to the previous dose and you're going to be good. So if 300 and 400 we're ok but at 500 you start getting itchy nips and acne or whatever, you know that 400 was your sweet spot. Or maybe that will happen from 600-700 and 600 was your sweet spot. Get what I'm saying. Start low, if you're doing everything right you'll most likely find out that you can rock 300 to 400 mg for quite a while. It's not going to be rapid gains but it should be a little more gains and a little faster rate for a long cons

This is another good example that everyone is different because I look a lot better with high fat/low carbs than the other way around, no noticeable difference in performance either way.

I’m @3300 cals it comes out to about 310/120/250 p/f/c.

Different performance needs tho probably. I'm fine for strength on 100-150gm carbs per day. But I'm lifting full body type workout with a little extra focus on a different body part each time, that's every other day, I'm boxing for about 1 hour 4 times a week, plus additional sparing sessions 2 times a week and there's extre weights and bodyweight stuff after boxing most days. Low carbs can't support that for me. Ideally I'd like to double my carb load.

But I still get what your saying, everyone will vary, but I'm not completely different then you, I can make the lower carb higher fat work if I'm not boxing, the only problem I have when cutting on low carbs is that the food volume is low. 1000 calories from fat isint much food, but 1000 calories from rice, fruit and vegetables is a pretty large volume

 

[Smont]

I guess I have a lot of changing variables that are going to determine what is best for me at the moment.

Currently I just upoed my fruits and vegetables and it's great for keeping fuller or being able to eat large volume of food. But it's also good for horrible gas and excessive bathroom trips lol

 

[BBiceps]

Different performance needs tho probably. I'm fine for strength on 100-150gm carbs per day. But I'm lifting full body type workout with a little extra focus on a different body part each time, that's every other day, I'm boxing for about 1 hour 4 times a week, plus additional sparing sessions 2 times a week and there's extre weights and bodyweight stuff after boxing most days. Low carbs can't support that for me. Ideally I'd like to double my carb load.

But I still get what your saying, everyone will vary, but I'm not completely different then you, I can make the lower carb higher fat work if I'm not boxing, the only problem I have when cutting on low carbs is that the food volume is low. 1000 calories from fat isint much food, but 1000 calories from rice, fruit and vegetables is a pretty large volume

Well, I was eating way less when I was fighting pro lol, but that was mostly because I was trying to make a weight class and not as good at dieting, I wish I knew what I know now then! I’m not training like that anymore though but I still do a lot more than just lift weights so the performance needs is probably not too far off. I just don’t do good with carbs.

 

[Smont]

Well, I was eating way less when I was fighting pro lol, but that was mostly because I was trying to make a weight class and not as good at dieting, I wish I knew what I know now then! I’m not training like that anymore though but I still do a lot more than just lift weights so the performance needs is probably not too far off. I just don’t do good with carbs.

Ya idk then. I guess I could also say that maybe it's not completely that I don't do good with low carbs as much as I dont do good with high fat, I try to keep fat around 80 all the time and I often adjust my carbs to meet calorie goals. I also always have intra workout carbs. But I do know that when I'm constantly on low carbs my strength/ endurance drops. I loose a little strength and what I really loose is the ability to repeatedly to something that involves strength. So like say I could bench 315 for 3 sets of 5, that might drop to only be able to doing 315 for 4,2,1 so my strength is down and my ability to perform again goes down.

This could also be a coincidence that when I'm cutting carbs I'm also losing weight so I'm just getting weaker because I'm a lower body weight

When I'm only counting calories and protein I can always tell when my fat has been really high for a few days because il start to feel crappy and my stomach gets fucked up.

 

[AfroPope]

Alright, 22lbs down, abs not poking through yet but starting to get good definition in the shoulders, forearms, and quads in particular. The weight is really starting to come off now and I should be down 30lbs total by the end of April, at which point I am going to take a diet break (just eating at maintenance for a month) and see where I'm at. I am still hitting PRs which means my recomp goals are going pretty well. Back of the napkin math puts me at about 19% BF right now and I will probably start this cycle around 13-15%, run it for the summer, and then chill out again.

So, I think I'll go with Smont's advice unless anyone has any alternatives and start with 300mg/wk of Test E, injecting every third day, same as I do with my HCG, just to keep things simple. Any sense adding anything else to this for a recomp, or is that gonna do me? I'm kind of of two minds on this - on the one hand I want to keep the majority of my progress off cycle, and in my experience that's harder to do the more you add to the cycle, but on the other hand, go big or go home. I kind of like the idea of adding an oral like Var or Epistane to this, but let's talk.

EDIT 2:

Alright, well, looks like I've "got a guy," so I am gonna keep planning this out but once I hit 13-15% I am gonna start with 300mg/wk Test E and see how I feel (might up to 350-400 depending), run a 12 week cycle, add 25mg var/day in week 6. Gonna do a little more research about dropping HCG down to 1000iu/wk instead of 2000iu since the test will be doing the bulk of the work, which suits me fine since my HCG is $200 a month.