Adaptogens?

kisaj said:
Oh, well that isn't bad at all. I love carbs at night and will never give up my few IPAs during the week.
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Yeah good call on the IPAs, dude! We just started getting a couple of decent beers here, but I am always jealous of the variety you guys have back in the US. Every time I come back to NY to visit, I make sure to try as many new IPAs as possible as there are always some new ones making their way there. If only Three Floyds would start shipping out there again...
 
I'm ordering mine in next few days... Gaia or Eclectic? Or are they both decent. In all honesty, I just don't wasn't product which is a bunk extract etc

Thanks
 
Alasel said:
I'm ordering mine in next few days... Gaia or Eclectic? Or are they both decent. In all honesty, I just don't wasn't product which is a bunk extract etc

Thanks
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Both brands seemed to be really good quality to me. However, due to the dosage differences they had different effects. If you're mainly looking for something to help with low energy levels and a slight mood boost, then I'd go with Gaia as it seems most people (including me) do better with the lower dose. Your reaction might be different though.
 
Alasel said:
I'm ordering mine in next few days... Gaia or Eclectic? Or are they both decent. In all honesty, I just don't wasn't product which is a bunk extract etc

Thanks
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These are reputable brands and it's not like you are dropping $100, so I don't know why you have concern about something being "bunk". We aren't dealing with UGL or something underground. Like has been mentioned multiple times, you need to find a dose that works for you and experiment with different brands.
 
Beau said:
"I don't always drink - but when I do, its an IPA"

Take that, Dos XXs.
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I'm good with cans of Tecate with some lime salt dusting the top of the can.

It's also great to dust the top of the can with that spicy lime salt sugar mixture they use on mangos.
 
kisaj said:
These are reputable brands and it's not like you are dropping $100, so I don't know why you have concern about something being "bunk". We aren't dealing with UGL or something underground. Like has been mentioned multiple times, you need to find a dose that works for you and experiment with different brands.
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I will assume how I read it was not how this intended and give you the benefit of the doubt that your trying to be helpful, but with all due respect the Gaia product is around 37-40 US Dollars here in the UK which for some, (maybe not you) is a lot to pay for something that may be a useless part/ineffective part of the herb...Thus I wanted to make sure what I intend to buy has some benefit and history of positive in someone with first hand experience with it. However I do understand you point regarding this not being UGL. I hope this post is not interpreted in the wrong way, thanks again for your response.
 
tristen22001 said:
Both brands seemed to be really good quality to me. However, due to the dosage differences they had different effects. If you're mainly looking for something to help with low energy levels and a slight mood boost, then I'd go with Gaia as it seems most people (including me) do better with the lower dose. Your reaction might be different though.
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Thanks for the reply. I was leaning towards the Eclectic product... You think that's sensible?
 
Sorry, I didn't realize the price disparity that you see over there. I pay around $18 for it and I've come to terms in the supplement game that anything <$25 is worth trying even if it doesn't end up working. If you are paying nearly $40, I can see the hesitation.

Understand that all I am trying to say is that many times with Rhodiola, you don't get it right the first time. If you go and read reviews on different brands, you can see that some people swear by one brand and not by others. What works for me, may not be the best for you and you may need a higher mg per serving, or a different ratio. It is trial and error. My personal experience has me preferring, in order: Gaia, Solger, ECI. Many people love the Swedish Herbal Institute brand, which I think may be cheaper in Europe based on reviews I have read.
 
Agreed. Rhodiola is one of the tougher herbs to pin down in terms of dose, extract ratio and your own brain chemistry. When you do get it right, the effects are awesome but until then it can be interesting ride.
 
bioman said:
Agreed. Rhodiola is one of the tougher herbs to pin down in terms of dose, extract ratio and your own brain chemistry. When you do get it right, the effects are awesome but until then it can be interesting ride.
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What have you found to be effective? Based on body weight at all?
 
aaronuconn said:
What have you found to be effective? Based on body weight at all?
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Not sure about body weight. I'd guess that it has more to do with individual brain chemistry than anything else. I have not experimented with a vast number of brands, though the talk of these brands in this thread has my interest piqued. Generally, regardless of brand and extract ratio, I have found smaller doses (100-150 mg) better for me. Too much gives me insomnia.
 
bioman said:
Not sure about body weight. I'd guess that it has more to do with individual brain chemistry than anything else. I have not experimented with a vast number of brands, though the talk of these brands in this thread has my interest piqued. Generally, regardless of brand and extract ratio, I have found smaller doses (100-150 mg) better for me. Too much gives me insomnia.
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It's an adaptogenic herb. As with adaptogens in general, how it effects the individual depends on the individual. The entire concept of adaptogens is for it to bring one back to or closer to homeostasis. So if you're in a state which you need a bit more help, you would probably feel the effects more. If you don't really need much help to begin with, you would most likely not feel very notable acute effects. These things are simply not a stimulant where regardless of your level of balance, you're going to feel a stimulant as long as you are sensitive enough to the stimulant.

If I recall correctly, adaptogens also work mainly on the adrenal gland (adrenal medulla to be specific I believe) with possible effects at the cellular level. So I don't think brain chemistry really has much to do with it unless we are talking about effects on the brain due to adrenal gland activity. I suppose certain issues with the hypothalamus and/or pituitary gland could also have an effect on your adrenal gland, but nonetheless, I'm pretty sure one of the main criteria for something to be categorized as an adaptogen is that it needs to mainly affect the adrenal gland.
 
kissdadookie said:
It's an adaptogenic herb. As with adaptogens in general, how it effects the individual depends on the individual. The entire concept of adaptogens is for it to bring one back to or closer to homeostasis. So if you're in a state which you need a bit more help, you would probably feel the effects more. If you don't really need much help to begin with, you would most likely not feel very notable acute effects. These things are simply not a stimulant where regardless of your level of balance, you're going to feel a stimulant as long as you are sensitive enough to the stimulant.

If I recall correctly, adaptogens also work mainly on the adrenal gland (adrenal medulla to be specific I believe) with possible effects at the cellular level. So I don't think brain chemistry really has much to do with it unless we are talking about effects on the brain due to adrenal gland activity.
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I somewhat disagree. "Adaptogen" is a term and concept that is not universally accepted in either alternative or mainstream medicine and it technically applies to all systems of the body adapting to stressors/harmful effects. Adrenals tend to the be target of many adaptogens, such as Ginseng, but the concept applies to whole body health. In any case the research behind Rhodiola does indicate very specific serotonin, epi, nor-epi and dopamine enhancing effects outside of the plethora of other effects that are chalked up to "adaptogenisis". Studies have shown small doses of RR increase serotonin and epi whereas large doses somehow work on the GABA system leading to sedation. As much as I would love to believe that RR, at any old dose, will go to work on me and do exactly what my body needs it to do..that has not been my experience at all and I have experimented with this herb, as well as reviewed the literature, for a decent number of years.
 
bioman said:
I somewhat disagree. "Adaptogen" is a term and concept that is not universally accepted in either alternative or mainstream medicine and it technically applies to all systems of the body adapting to stressors/harmful effects. Adrenals tend to the be target of many adaptogens, such as Ginseng, but the concept applies to whole body health. In any case the research behind Rhodiola does indicate very specific serotonin, epi, nor-epi and dopamine enhancing effects outside of the plethora of other effects that are chalked up to "adaptogenisis". Studies have shown small doses of RR increase serotonin and epi whereas large doses somehow work on the GABA system leading to sedation. As much as I would love to believe that RR, at any old dose, will go to work on me and do exactly what my body needs it to do..that has not been my experience at all and I have experimented with this herb, as well as reviewed the literature, for a decent number of years.
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Actually, it was generally accepted by the 1980s that adaptogens mainly affected the sympathetic nervous system. That's the system that is responsible for the fight or flight response in which your adrenal gland is responsible for much of the hormones which are released due to it (main one of course is cortisol). There's obviously parts of rhodiola which have effects but not all of those effects or parts of the herb is adaptogenic or can be considered an adaptogen.

Just to briefly break down the history of the definition of adaptogens:

non-specific remedies "that increase resistance to a broad spectrum of harmful factors (stressors) of different physical, chemical and biological natures

That definition was originally termed and intended to be used to categorize dibazol 12-benzyl benzimidazol which was an arterial dilator. The definition has actually since been updated to:

new class of metabolic regulators (of a natural origin) which increase the ability of an organism to adapt to environmental factors and to avoid damage from such factors.

By then, in which I mean the 1980s, there had been extensive amounts of research which demonstrated that adaptogens operated on the sympathetic nervous system. The problem these days however is that people have just stuck with the original definition of adaptogens (which by the way, was never really intended to define what we now know and consider to be adaptogens, it was merely a way for N.V. Lazarev to categorize and describe the effects of dibazol 12-benzyl benzimidazol). It is currently well known and accepted in the herbal community that adaptogens do in actuality have to essentially operate on your adrenal gland for it to be considered a true adaptogen (amongst some other criterias, but the main MOA is that it mainly affects your adrenal gland).
 
I feel great on Rhodiola, but alas after a few days I too can't sleep; surprisingly I don't feel tired the following day. It can't be healthy, not sleeping for more than a couple of days, despite not feeling tired.
 
Alasel said:
Thanks for the reply. I was leaning towards the Eclectic product... You think that's sensible?
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It's a good brand/product and might work better for you than the Gaia brand (won't know until you try). If you find the dosage of the Eclectic product to be too high, you could always just open the capsules (mix half with a liquid and drink it; close the capsule with the remaining half). If cost is an issue, it seems like these would be a very cheap approach as it would last you twice as long. I tried this with that brand before switching back to Gaia and it seemed to work better at this lower dosage (but still preferred Gaia a little bit more). Also, I'm just really lazy and don't like messing with splitting doses.
 
saggy321 said:
I feel great on Rhodiola, but alas after a few days I too can't sleep; surprisingly I don't feel tired the following day. It can't be healthy, not sleeping for more than a couple of days, despite not feeling tired.
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Yes, that is the beauty of it. RR got me through the infant stage of my kids and I was never tired. People couldn't figure it out.
 
For anyone taking bacopa...what's your preferred brand? I've tried Swanson's Bacozine (250 mg) and Himalaya Pure Herbs twice each day and both have caused sedation (taking it with rhodiola). Also, if you've found something that stacks well with it that negates the sedative aspect, I'd appreciate that information too. I'd really like to keep bacopa because it seems to work well for focus.
 
The Himilaya version I have are tablets..perhaps splitting the dose in half would help? I only dose it once per day as 2x per day definitely leaves me feeling spacey.
 
tristen22001 said:
It's a good brand/product and might work better for you than the Gaia brand (won't know until you try). If you find the dosage of the Eclectic product to be too high, you could always just open the capsules (mix half with a liquid and drink it; close the capsule with the remaining half). If cost is an issue, it seems like these would be a very cheap approach as it would last you twice as long. I tried this with that brand before switching back to Gaia and it seemed to work better at this lower dosage (but still preferred Gaia a little bit more). Also, I'm just really lazy and don't like messing with splitting doses.
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My only issue with trying the Gaia product is it is expensive here in the UK and if used recommend dose (2 caps per day) it will only last 1 month...
How many do you use per day of Gaia?
 
Look at the Solger brand. Very similar to Gaia in terms of potency, if not slightly higher. See if that is a bit cheaper.
 
tristen22001 said:
Both brands seemed to be really good quality to me. However, due to the dosage differences they had different effects. If you're mainly looking for something to help with low energy levels and a slight mood boost, then I'd go with Gaia as it seems most people (including me) do better with the lower dose. Your reaction might be different though.
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Looking more for the mood boost aspect and energy is a plus, I guess I could try electric institute and if I'm not happy try the Gaia. But if I use Gaia, I will probably only use 1 per day unless I really feel 2 will be of benefit.
 
kisaj said:
Sorry, I didn't realize the price disparity that you see over there. I pay around $18 for it and I've come to terms in the supplement game that anything <$25 is worth trying even if it doesn't end up working. If you are paying nearly $40, I can see the hesitation. Understand that all I am trying to say is that many times with Rhodiola, you don't get it right the first time. If you go and read reviews on different brands, you can see that some people swear by one brand and not by others. What works for me, may not be the best for you and you may need a higher mg per serving, or a different ratio. It is trial and error. My personal experience has me preferring, in order: Gaia, Solger, ECI. Many people love the Swedish Herbal Institute brand, which I think may be cheaper in Europe based on reviews I have read.
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Apparently its discontinued... Lol

I will look at Gaia and anything else you suggest. I will see if I can find swedish herbal institute at reasonable price. What is ECI?

Thanks again
 
Has anyone noticed a pretty big increase in irritability/anger when taking bacopa? I've noticed that I become very short tempered when taking it but nothing has worked better for me with regard to focus and "brain fog". So, I'm trying to figure out why it might be causing the anger issues.
 
This thread seems to be where all the herbal experts reside. So I'm hoping someone in here can help me with a question I've been trying to answer. I'm having trouble finding/understanding bacopa's interaction with acetylcholine. All I've been able to determine so far from sources online is that is modulates levels of acetylcholine. So, my question is, how does this compare to choline precursors and ache inhibitors? In other words, would bacopa's modulation of acetylcholine make it possible to take it with a racetam and no other choline source? Also, since bacopa impacts levels of dopamine and serotonin, would it interfer with something like aniracetam?
 
I had to stop taking Aniracetam once I added Bacopa back in. I love Ani, but I took it to combat anxiety and Bacopa is 10x better for that. I was getting very tired mentally having both of them in the mix and once I dropped the Ani, mental energy peaked.

As far as interactions with cholines, I take Alpha GPC with it and it works like a charm.
 
kisaj said:
I had to stop taking Aniracetam once I added Bacopa back in. I love Ani, but I took it to combat anxiety and Bacopa is 10x better for that. I was getting very tired mentally having both of them in the mix and once I dropped the Ani, mental energy peaked.

As far as interactions with cholines, I take Alpha GPC with it and it works like a charm.
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What dose of Aniracetam and Bacopa were you using when taking them at the same time? I'm currently taking Aniracetam and Galantamine (any other choline source results in headaches; even at low doses). However, the cost of Galantamine is a little tough on the wallet; even at just 4 - 8 mg each day. Was hoping Bacopa's interaction with acetylcholine levels would make it a good, and mild, substitute for Galantamine (even though they're very different nootropics).
 
Cool thread... Have to give a nod to my favorite in this category because I haven't seen it mentioned in here: jiaogulan.

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stan08 said:
What dose of Aniracetam and Bacopa were you using when taking them at the same time? I'm currently taking Aniracetam and Galantamine (any other choline source results in headaches; even at low doses). However, the cost of Galantamine is a little tough on the wallet; even at just 4 - 8 mg each day. Was hoping Bacopa's interaction with acetylcholine levels would make it a good, and mild, substitute for Galantamine (even though they're very different nootropics).
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Why are you taking Galantamine? I've read up on that in the past and it sounds horrible.

My daily dose of Ani was 750 2x a day. The curve for Ani is very small and a little too much has the opposite effect. Bocapa is 250mg 24% saponins 2x a day.

I will say that ashwagandha, bacopa, and alpha gpc are incredible together. However, I dug much deeper and found that my DHEA levels were normal low and that is a key contributor to brain fog and anxiety. Once I got that situated, my anxiety completely cleared and the noots just polished everything with crazy recall and memory retention. Not a day goes by where I start using words and I shock myself wondering where the hell I remembered or learned it from.
 
In looking at studies on jiaogulan, I wonder if it would help with sleep apnea or exercise-induced asthma.
 
kisaj said:
Why are you taking Galantamine? I've read up on that in the past and it sounds horrible.

My daily dose of Ani was 750 2x a day. The curve for Ani is very small and a little too much has the opposite effect. Bocapa is 250mg 24% saponins 2x a day.

I will say that ashwagandha, bacopa, and alpha gpc are incredible together. However, I dug much deeper and found that my DHEA levels were normal low and that is a key contributor to brain fog and anxiety. Once I got that situated, my anxiety completely cleared and the noots just polished everything with crazy recall and memory retention. Not a day goes by where I start using words and I shock myself wondering where the hell I remembered or learned it from.
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Low dose Galantamine is the only thing I found that prevents headaches from Aniracetam. Any other precursor or ache inhibitor just makes the headaches and brain fog worse. It just seems like the two work really well together. I may have to see if an adaptogen makes it even better. I'm going to do some research on DHEA. I wonder if I have a similar issue. Aniracetam and Galantamine help a lot but things could definitely be better.
 
KrisL said:
bad link?

Edit: got to it by going to Invalid Link Removed and clicking RV12.pdf
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Thanks, man... Think I fixed it.

KrisL said:
In looking at studies on jiaogulan, I wonder if it would help with sleep apnea or exercise-induced asthma.
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Worth a shot. It didn't correct my sleep apnea, though I still use it for cholesterol modulation (helped to lower my LDL by 22 points), and cardiovascular and immune system support.

Relatively inexpensive, too; just be sure to seek out the highest gypenoside content.
 
stan08 said:
Low dose Galantamine is the only thing I found that prevents headaches from Aniracetam. Any other precursor or ache inhibitor just makes the headaches and brain fog worse. It just seems like the two work really well together. I may have to see if an adaptogen makes it even better. I'm going to do some research on DHEA. I wonder if I have a similar issue. Aniracetam and Galantamine help a lot but things could definitely be better.
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I would stop taking Ani if you need to take Galantamine to prevent headaches. If Alpha GPC didn't work, then maybe it is not for you. What is your goal? Anxiolytic effect, brain fog, other cognitive reasons?

About DHEA, I would not just look to supplement with it unless you know your #s.
 
kisaj said:
I would stop taking Ani if you need to take Galantamine to prevent headaches. If Alpha GPC didn't work, then maybe it is not for you. What is your goal? Anxiolytic effect, brain fog, other cognitive reasons?

About DHEA, I would not just look to supplement with it unless you know your #s.
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Definitely looking for a reduction in anxiety and brain fog; some memory improvement would be a plus too.

I just read a thread you started which talked about DHEA. It definitely sounds like a beneficial supplement (for those that need it). However, like you mention, it doesn't sound like something I'd want to take before talking to a doctor and getting some tests done. Still, it gives me an interesting subject to read up on more. :)
 
Read up up pregnenolone as well. I need it (mainly due to being on TRT), but the synergy between the adaptogens and this is unparalleled.
 
kisaj said:
Read up up pregnenolone as well. I need it (mainly due to being on TRT), but the synergy between the adaptogens and this is unparalleled.
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Will do. Thanks. As a side note, I had blood tests done almost a year ago to try and determine if there was an underlying issue. However, the doctor only said on my follow-up that everything was within range. I just requested that they fax me the test results so I can see if my T levels are near the bottom of the range (assuming they tested for that). In the meantime, I'll do more research on DHEA, Pregnenolone and adaptogens. Not having any experience with adaptogens, this thread has been very informative and provided me with some interesting herbs to research.
 
That is a bunch of baloney. It is your body, health, and money. You have a right to know all your labs and exactly where you stand. Because of one doctors opinion that because you are in normal range doesn't mean anything because we all know those ranges are for 18-90 year olds. You want the levels of a 90 year old just because they are "normal"? Find a new doctor or do some testing on your own. We don't live in the day and age, nor belong to this site, to be anything less than our best.
 
kisaj said:
That is a bunch of baloney. It is your body, health, and money. You have a right to know all your labs and exactly where you stand. Because of one doctors opinion that because you are in normal range doesn't mean anything because we all know those ranges are for 18-90 year olds. You want the levels of a 90 year old just because they are "normal"? Find a new doctor or do some testing on your own. We don't live in the day and age, nor belong to this site, to be anything less than our best.
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I agree with you. However, I have to shoulder some of the blame too by not being proactive and requesting a copy of the results. At least they were quick about faxing them to me. No test for T levels was performed.
 
I don't know because I have only been taking bacopa and ashwagandha and they are amazing. I stopped taking rhodiola and noticed a nice calmness. It is a great herb, but with my natural tendency towards slight anxiety, I think it was adding to it without my knowledge.
 
I asked a question similar to that provided below in another thread but thought it might be more appropriate here:

With the various brands and dosages available for Bacopa, does anyone know if there's a maximum amount of extract after which negative effects will be noticed in the longterm? In particular, there are two brands that are standardized to 70 mg and 175 mg. Both recommend one or two capsules each day but have very different dosages (both seem also to be standardized for everything; not just Bacosides A & B like some brands). Has anyone taken larger dosages of Bacopa for a long period of time and noticed if it was better or worse than the lower dosages?
 
Is a higher dose of bacopa sedating and a lower dose energizing? Or does it just depend on the brand and/or individual?
 
Great thread. Due to going through an extremely stressful time in my life, I've added ashwagandha and relora which has been great for sleep. I've been thinking about adding in rhodiola, but was curious if it would interact with the yohimbine or hygenamine (sp?) in this bottle of Alpha-T2 due to rhodiola's mild effects on MAO-A inhibition? Anyone have any thoughts?

Also, what dose of relora are you guys using prebed? I've just been taking 1 cap of 300mg.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Great thread. Due to going through an extremely stressful time in my life, I've added ashwagandha and relora which has been great for sleep. I've been thinking about adding in rhodiola, but was curious if it would interact with the yohimbine or hygenamine (sp?) in this bottle of Alpha-T2 due to rhodiola's mild effects on MAO-A inhibition? Anyone have any thoughts? Also, what dose of relora are you guys using prebed? I've just been taking 1 cap of 300mg.
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Taking alpha t2 and rhodiola atm and haven't noticed any issues.
 
In the beginning it deff had a kick and really boosted mood, PES yohimbe extract sits well with me soo ive never had issues. I think it wont be overly stimulating for you if you had a cap in the absence of other stims. deff start off at the lowest dose and assess.
 
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