AAS, PH Or HCG?

JoeBrooklyn

JoeBrooklyn

Well-known member
My very first foray was about 4 years ago with PH and although I got big, it shut me down hard and killed my libido and once I was off I lost everything. Eventually I got the balls to stick myself and I started AAS; but I knew nothing about AI and vaguely anything about aromitazation and ended up having 229 estrogen levels which gave me dead d**k. I recovered and I saw a doctor who put me on HCG. While my gains on AAS were not as great but still very good as PH, my gains on HCG have been at best ok. The best thing I can say about HCG is that it kept my libido up. Then I got the bright idea to add an AI without asking my doctor and then added Proviron and it killed my estrogen and I ended up having the same penis issues.

I was supposed to get my bloods today but have to wait 2-3 more days. I stopped with the AI and have recovered somewhat but dont feel 100%.

What do you guys like the most and why?
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
My very first foray was about 4 years ago with PH and although I got big, it shut me down hard and killed my libido and once I was off I lost everything. Eventually I got the balls to stick myself and I started AAS; but I knew nothing about AI and vaguely anything about aromitazation and ended up having 229 estrogen levels which gave me dead d**k. I recovered and I saw a doctor who put me on HCG. While my gains on AAS were not as great but still very good as PH, my gains on HCG have been at best ok. The best thing I can say about HCG is that it kept my libido up. Then I got the bright idea to add an AI without asking my doctor and then added Proviron and it killed my estrogen and I ended up having the same penis issues.

I was supposed to get my bloods today but have to wait 2-3 more days. I stopped with the AI and have recovered somewhat but dont feel 100%.

What do you guys like the most and why?
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Thought you would have learned after your last log to research a bit before taking anything. Give it a few days and it will sort itself out, you need hormone levels to be within the right ratios for everything to work properly so when one is out of whack it will cause you issues. Some people are more prone to libido issues than others, I think you fall into this category unfortunately.
 
Lukef2000 said:
Thought you would have learned after your last log to research a bit before taking anything. Give it a few days and it will sort itself out, you need hormone levels to be within the right ratios for everything to work properly so when one is out of whack it will cause you issues. Some people are more prone to libido issues than others, I think you fall into this category unfortunately.
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The HCG was administered by a doctor. What is he getting paid for if I have to research it?
 
Yes, after about 4 weeks I was feeling a little off, nothing like total shut down but not as horny as the first 4 weeks so I thought maybe my etsrogen was getting too high, so I started doing Aromasin 10mg everyday, then after a week added proviron and things got worse. it's at that point I thought maybe I pushed my estrogen too low.
 
Sounds to me like you need to stop taking Aromasin and Proviron ... oops - it looks like you already have according to your original post.

You need time to reach homeostasis - which unfortunately isn't going to happen as long as you are on HCG.
 
HondaV65 said:
Sounds to me like you need to stop taking Aromasin and Proviron ... oops - it looks like you already have according to your original post.

You need time to reach homeostasis - which unfortunately isn't going to happen as long as you are on HCG.
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Why? What does HCG have to do with estrogen?
 
Is estrogen all you are worried about?

While you're on HCG - your pituitary is shut down. The longer it's shutdown, the longer it will take to recover (if it even can). If / When you go off HCG - you're going to have a very hard time producing testosterone naturally without the HCG.

None of this matters if you were already on TRT - but you don't mention that you are so my response is based on you not being on TRT.

Why did he put you on HCG? How much are you taking? And how long have you taken it?
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
The HCG was administered by a doctor. What is he getting paid for if I have to research it?
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I am currently studying medicine and I'll be the first to tell you doctors screw up sometimes, so as a patient you should always make sure what ever drug or procedure you are having done is used/done correctly . They shouldn't make the mistakes they do since they are paid so much but unfortunately it happens.. alot
 
HondaV65 said:
Is estrogen all you are worried about?

While you're on HCG - your pituitary is shut down. The longer it's shutdown, the longer it will take to recover (if it even can). If / When you go off HCG - you're going to have a very hard time producing testosterone naturally without the HCG.

None of this matters if you were already on TRT - but you don't mention that you are so my response is based on you not being on TRT.

Why did he put you on HCG? How much are you taking? And how long have you taken it?
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Yes, right now that's all I'm worried about. I am aware that my pituitary is shut down but my balls are cranking out test naturally, and I love that. Now why would my pituitary shutting down be any worse than my balls shutting down if I was on AAS? And what makes you believe it wont recover? Why would I have a hard time producing test after HCG but not after AAS or PH for that matter that shuts you down hard.
No, I'm not on TRT, my test levels are "normal" for my age (I'm 43 and my test is 502); but when I hit 39, after not being in the gym for 7 years I found that I couldn't build the muscle or losse the fat the way I use to. So I tried PH, AAS and now HCG.
The doctor put me on HCG after I went to him because I was on a massive AAS cycle with no AI and my penis stopped working. I needed an Anti-Estrogen and he preceded to lecture me on the dangers of AAS. Seeing that I wasn't convinced and would continue, he put me on HCG. I was off AAS for about 8 weeks before I got on HCG. I have been on HCG now for almost 9 weeks and I take 1,000ius 3 times per week.
 
Viking23 said:
I am currently studying medicine and I'll be the first to tell you doctors screw up sometimes, so as a patient you should always make sure what ever drug or procedure you are having done is used/done correctly . They shouldn't make the mistakes they do since they are paid so much but unfortunately it happens.. alot
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I did as much research as I could but remember I am an accountant not a medical practitioner. How much I understood I couldnt even tell you but I liked the fact that it made my own body produce it's own test and made me horny.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
I have been on HCG now for almost 9 weeks and I take 1,000ius 3 times per week.
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Okay ... I don't if you said that right - but you're taking 1K iu's X 3 weekly? Or ... 3,000 iu's per week? WTF dude - your estrogen must be going ape **** at that dosage. Is that the dosage the doctor prescribed for you?

Let me be blunt - you're clueless ... you are doing things and you don't even know why. You can't even accurately describe your medical condition.

First you say your testosterone levels were nomal - but that your doctor placed you on HCG. I have never heard of something like that in my entire life - that's one idiot doctor for sure. If your test was normal he should have told you ... "Stop taking all that ****" for a few months and allow your system to return to homeostasis.

You're right, running HCG is not much different than running AAS. However, you've been on for nine weeks - when ya comin' off? If you're plan is to come off next year sometime - you might have a problem restarting your pituitary. Also - there are some theories that HCG will cause Leydig Cell Desensitization to LH. HCG doesn't deliver LH to your balls - it delivers something similar but it's not the same. So all the while you're receiving this other compound from HCG - your balls could be "forgetting" how to respond to a solid LH from your pituitary. Not a problem I suppose if you intend to inject HCG for life - but you don't seem to be happy on it.

My advice to you would be get off everything ... go buy a good SERM and do a solid PCT and then stay off the gear for awhile to allow your body time to readjust. It's not gonna be easy - you may go through periods of depression and heavy erectile dysfunction - but I think that is the only way out of the hole you have available at this point.
 
HondaV65 said:
Okay ... I don't if you said that right - but you're taking 1K iu's X 3 weekly? Or ... 3,000 iu's per week? WTF dude - your estrogen must be going ape **** at that dosage. Is that the dosage the doctor prescribed for you?

Let me be blunt - you're clueless ... you are doing things and you don't even know why. You can't even accurately describe your medical condition.

First you say your testosterone levels were nomal - but that your doctor placed you on HCG. I have never heard of something like that in my entire life - that's one idiot doctor for sure. If your test was normal he should have told you ... "Stop taking all that ****" for a few months and allow your system to return to homeostasis.

You're right, running HCG is not much different than running AAS. However, you've been on for nine weeks - when ya comin' off? If you're plan is to come off next year sometime - you might have a problem restarting your pituitary. Also - there are some theories that HCG will cause Leydig Cell Desensitization to LH. HCG doesn't deliver LH to your balls - it delivers something similar but it's not the same. So all the while you're receiving this other compound from HCG - your balls could be "forgetting" how to respond to a solid LH from your pituitary. Not a problem I suppose if you intend to inject HCG for life - but you don't seem to be happy on it.

My advice to you would be get off everything ... go buy a good SERM and do a solid PCT and then stay off the gear for awhile to allow your body time to readjust. It's not gonna be easy - you may go through periods of depression and heavy erectile dysfunction - but I think that is the only way out of the hole you have available at this point.
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Well, let me tell you exactly what I have and take, maybe I said it wrong, since I'm "clueless". I have a vile of HCG that says 10,000iu. I have another vile of Bac water that is also 10,000iu. I was told to put 10ccs of bac water (pretty much the whole vile) into the vile of HCG and take 1cc three times per week. So you tell me, is that 1,000ius 3 times per week?
As for "normal", I'm normal for a 43 year old; but the f**k wants to be normal? If you had a 6" penis wouldnt you want 7 or 8? When I was 23 my test levels were 800, THATS normal!! Not 502. I just got my bloods back today and my estrogen is 32. Even though I'm clueless I believe that is normal rage. My test came in at 656 on the day before a pinn (which means that's the low).
Do u do any AAS or PH? The point of this post was to find out what people liked most who did all three. And I am happy with my libido on HCG, I just may have killed my estrogen for a bit because I was taking 10mg of aromasin and 50mg of Proviron for 2 weeks. When I got the blood test i was off proviron for 12 days and off Aromasin for 1 day.
 
So your test levels range from the 500's to the 600's and you're not satisfied with that? Okay ... then you need to convince your Doc to put you on TRT. He'll probably not prescribe enough test to put you in the 1,000 range but you could run cycles on your own alongside that. There's no turning back though, once you go that route.

Yes, it sounds like you are doing 3,000 iu's of HCG per week - and that's a huge dose from what I've read - like three times the normal max dosage. I have never used HCG because the longest I ever cycled was 4 weeks.

You didn't answer the question on how long you intend to be on HCG. You say you like it because it makes you "horny" ... well, when you come off it the opposite will occur so are you on this stuff for life or what?

Why don't you just take a time-out from all chemicals and give it six months and then reassess your AAS usage?

I have used PH and both oral and injectible steroids. I don't use any of them longer than 4 weeks though because I don't want to deal with the agony of a long PCT. With short cycles I come back almost immediately and can even make gains until my next cycle. Now mind you - I am 51 and my test levels three weeks ago were almost 900 ng/ml - which I believe this would indicate that I have a pretty solid HPTA still firing.

However, if yours isn't quite up to snuff you aren't helping it out with indefinite usage of HCG. You are going to be causing damage. So while estrogen is the only thing you're worried about now - that won't be a permanent situation because you are going to cause irreparable damage to your HPTA and end up on TRT for life.

There are a lot of guys who bodybuild with test levels in the 500-600 range - even some a lot lower than yours. They do fine because they cycle responsibly and have a plan every time they decide to cycle. The telling thing is - you have no exit plan from this at all. When you use AAS - you ALWAYS should have an exit plan.
 
HondaV65 said:
So your test levels range from the 500's to the 600's and you're not satisfied with that? Okay ... then you need to convince your Doc to put you on TRT. He'll probably not prescribe enough test to put you in the 1,000 range but you could run cycles on your own alongside that. There's no turning back though, once you go that route.

Yes, it sounds like you are doing 3,000 iu's of HCG per week - and that's a huge dose from what I've read - like three times the normal max dosage. I have never used HCG because the longest I ever cycled was 4 weeks.

You didn't answer the question on how long you intend to be on HCG. You say you like it because it makes you "horny" ... well, when you come off it the opposite will occur so are you on this stuff for life or what?

Why don't you just take a time-out from all chemicals and give it six months and then reassess your AAS usage?

I have used PH and both oral and injectible steroids. I don't use any of them longer than 4 weeks though because I don't want to deal with the agony of a long PCT. With short cycles I come back almost immediately and can even make gains until my next cycle. Now mind you - I am 51 and my test levels three weeks ago were almost 900 ng/ml - which I believe this would indicate that I have a pretty solid HPTA still firing.

However, if yours isn't quite up to snuff you aren't helping it out with indefinite usage of HCG. You are going to be causing damage. So while estrogen is the only thing you're worried about now - that won't be a permanent situation because you are going to cause irreparable damage to your HPTA and end up on TRT for life.

There are a lot of guys who bodybuild with test levels in the 500-600 range - even some a lot lower than yours. They do fine because they cycle responsibly and have a plan every time they decide to cycle. The telling thing is - you have no exit plan from this at all. When you use AAS - you ALWAYS should have an exit plan.
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To answer your question, before I found out about the pituatary I thought I could be on HCG indefinitely because it's my body making the test. But now I am rethinking that. As for an exit strategy. When I'm on AAS I always do. I didnt know I needed one for HCG since it's my body producing test.
When I was on AAS I knew what to take for PCT, what should I take for PCT after HCG? What reboots the pituatary?
So since you have tried all, what do you like the most? What kind of AI do you take on cycle for PH?
Body builders with test levels of 500-600? I dont see how unless they have abnormally high Free Test.
When you say your test is at 900 is that on cycle or off? And how long off are you at those levels? The average 20 something is at 800.
 
The test levels I quote are off cycle.

Best SERM I think is Torem (but that's a personal preference although I have seen studies that indicate it makes the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH which is a good thing). It's not just the pituitary shutting down though ... your Hypothalamus has been inactive also.

My favorite? Well as for gains - injectibles are the way to go if you want to maximize in that department. However, if you're a more casual bodybuilder and look at this like a marathon, not a sprint - then oral designers are an excellent way to go if your liver can tolerate them. The cool thing about orals is they clear your body within HOURS vice days ... or even weeks ... like many injectibles. The other cool thing is - most of them have directions on the bottle and each serving is a FIXED amount of compound. It's hard to get the dosage mixed up and very easy to find the correct dosage on an oral. For injectibles - they'll come in an ampule or vial ... no directions ... and so people get the dosages usually through "broscience" on the anabolic forums. I just came off a 2 week cycle of test prop and I swear I never hit the sweet spot as far as dosing it. Sure - I could stay on it longer ... but I'd rather not do that. I made some decent gains ... 5 pounds in two weeks though.
 
HondaV65 said:
The test levels I quote are off cycle.

Best SERM I think is Torem (but that's a personal preference although I have seen studies that indicate it makes the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH which is a good thing). It's not just the pituitary shutting down though ... your Hypothalamus has been inactive also.

My favorite? Well as for gains - injectibles are the way to go if you want to maximize in that department. However, if you're a more casual bodybuilder and look at this like a marathon, not a sprint - then oral designers are an excellent way to go if your liver can tolerate them. The cool thing about orals is they clear your body within HOURS vice days ... or even weeks ... like many injectibles. The other cool thing is - most of them have directions on the bottle and each serving is a FIXED amount of compound. It's hard to get the dosage mixed up and very easy to find the correct dosage on an oral. For injectibles - they'll come in an ampule or vial ... no directions ... and so people get the dosages usually through "broscience" on the anabolic forums. I just came off a 2 week cycle of test prop and I swear I never hit the sweet spot as far as dosing it. Sure - I could stay on it longer ... but I'd rather not do that. I made some decent gains ... 5 pounds in two weeks though.
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What??!! Off cycle and your 51? Well, I guess you're blessed then. The rest of us mortals were lucky to have 800 when we were young.
So what do I do to get the Hypothalamus up and running again?

As for PH vs. AAS, I had better gains with PH but it shut me down hard. I'm giving AAS one more try. I'm going to start a cycle of EQ 300 at 250mg per week and a test at 500mg per week with Amadex as the AI and prami to control the Prolactin from the EQ while on HCG; but I will bring down my HCG to 500uis per week. I want to run this for about 4 weeks, a short cycle, like you said and then go on PCT. If I dont like the gains, I will try PH again (something I thought I'd never do) What are your thoughts? What Test is best stacked with EQ?
 
EQ at 300 mgs a week is pretty much a waste. EQ at 300 mgs for 4 weeks is a total waste. Test for 4 weeks is a waste. Save your money
 
bigbb123 said:
if your gunna run test for 4 weeks, use test prop 75 mg ed. Its alot of pinning, but it works. On and off quick. Yea eq at 300 mg for less than 10 weeks aint gunna do squat.
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I have 2 viles (10ccs) of Test Prop and a few Tren. So take 75mg per week or per pin? I want to take 500mg per week so that would be about 6 times per week of test prop?
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
So you're saying whether I pin 250mg or 75mg it will clear in a couple of days?
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Yes. The ester controls the rate of absorption into your system. After a couple days your levels will drop. You need to pin more to stay stable so EOD dosing is about as far apart as your pins should be.
 
Lukef2000 said:
Yes. The ester controls the rate of absorption into your system. After a couple days your levels will drop. You need to pin more to stay stable so EOD dosing is about as far apart as your pins should be.
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I wanted to stack this with Tren at 250mg per week. I can still pinn that once per week right? But if I have to pin Prop 6 times per week I may have to rethink this cycle. Any suggestions?
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
I wanted to stack this with Tren at 250mg per week. I can still pinn that once per week right? But if I have to pin Prop 6 times per week I may have to rethink this cycle. Any suggestions?
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That depends on the ester of the tren, is it acetate? Or enanthate? Yeah ED or EOD pinning gets old really quick.
 
Lukef2000 said:
That depends on the ester of the tren, is it acetate? Or enanthate? Yeah ED or EOD pinning gets old really quick.
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Acetate. But if I want to do a 4-6 week cycle (4 weeks of Tren and 6 weeks of Test) and you guys say that it would be a waste if I used Ethonate or Sustanon and I have to use Prop and pin 6 days a week, what do I do? Is my whole concept stupid? I got the idea from a guy here on AM, I thought short cycles medium gains, little loss of libido and quick recovery. Am I wrong?
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Acetate. But if I want to do a 4-6 week cycle (4 weeks of Tren and 6 weeks of Test) and you guys say that it would be a waste if I used Ethonate or Sustanon and I have to use Prop and pin 6 days a week, what do I do? Is my whole concept stupid? I got the idea from a guy here on AM, I thought short cycles medium gains, little loss of libido and quick recovery. Am I wrong?
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Your talking about a burst cycle. I like the idea of burst cycling but with short cycles you have to use short esters which means a frequent pinning schedule. There's no point running a burst cycle with long esters a they take too long to build up in your system.
 
Lukef2000 said:
Your talking about a burst cycle. I like the idea of burst cycling but with short cycles you have to use short esters which means a frequent pinning schedule. There's no point running a burst cycle with long esters a they take too long to build up in your system.
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Ok then there goes that idea. So back to a 10 week Ethonate/Tren cycle.
 
Lukef2000 said:
Every day or every second day.
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Ok, I have EQ and Sustanon. I will do Sustanon for 10 weeks and EQ for 8 at 500mg for Sustanon and 250mg Eq. With Adex as my AI and do HCG at 250ius per week the whole time and Prami.

My PCT will be Clomid for 5 weeks and HCG for the first 2 weeks at 1000 uis per week, Forged PCT and Unleashed for 5 weeks, than after that continue the Unleashed and do DAA.

Any thoughts?
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Ok, I have EQ and Sustanon. I will do Sustanon for 10 weeks and EQ for 8 at 500mg for Sustanon and 250mg Eq. With Adex as my AI and do HCG at 250ius per week the whole time and Prami.

My PCT will be Clomid for 5 weeks and HCG for the first 2 weeks at 1000 uis per week, Forged PCT and Unleashed for 5 weeks, than after that continue the Unleashed and do DAA.

Any thoughts?
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Honestly man no disrespect but you need to Google the compounds you plan on using. I wouldn't recommend sust because your going to waste the short ester in it. You can still use it and make good gains but you are wasting money. And eq takes a while to take affect and most people run it 12-16 weeks. And your dose is def to low. I am sorry if I sound like a dikk but its for your own good. You need to understand what you are putting in your body so if something goes wrong you will have an idea as to what is causing it, and how to fix it.
 
I can not believe that after having all the problems you mentioned in your posts, you are thinking of going into another cycle.
IMHO you should drop the **** you are doing, do a decent PCT and wait 4-6 months before considering AAS or PHs..
I say this with good intentions, not trying to flame you or anything.
 
JoeBrooklyn said:
Ok, I have EQ and Sustanon. I will do Sustanon for 10 weeks and EQ for 8 at 500mg for Sustanon and 250mg Eq. With Adex as my AI and do HCG at 250ius per week the whole time and Prami.

My PCT will be Clomid for 5 weeks and HCG for the first 2 weeks at 1000 uis per week, Forged PCT and Unleashed for 5 weeks, than after that continue the Unleashed and do DAA.

Any thoughts?
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I'm not a fan of sustanon at all. It's very hard to maintain stable blood levels also you need to run more to get the same amounts of test due to sustanons heavy ester weight. From memory out of 500mg 176mg is ester weight. Eq needs to be run longer, at least 12 weeks at 400mg+. Also do t use hcg in pct it's suppressive. Use during cycle at 250iu twice per week. The night before your pin.
 
Viking23 said:
Honestly man no disrespect but you need to Google the compounds you plan on using. I wouldn't recommend sust because your going to waste the short ester in it. You can still use it and make good gains but you are wasting money. And eq takes a while to take affect and most people run it 12-16 weeks. And your dose is def to low. I am sorry if I sound like a dikk but its for your own good. You need to understand what you are putting in your body so if something goes wrong you will have an idea as to what is causing it, and how to fix it.
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I'm learning alot right now. I guess I have no choice but to go back on a 10-12 week cycle with Ethonate. I dont have any, so I have to buy some.
 
FranARG said:
I can not believe that after having all the problems you mentioned in your posts, you are thinking of going into another cycle.
IMHO you should drop the **** you are doing, do a decent PCT and wait 4-6 months before considering AAS or PHs..
I say this with good intentions, not trying to flame you or anything.
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Dude, I was off AAS for 8 weeks and before that PCT for 4 for a total of 12 weeks before I started HCG which I have been on for 9 weeks. My balls are doing well, I know my pituatary is shut down but is there a PCT for that? If I go on a PCT what would I use? How do you PCT HCG?
 
Lukef2000 said:
I'm not a fan of sustanon at all. It's very hard to maintain stable blood levels also you need to run more to get the same amounts of test due to sustanons heavy ester weight. From memory out of 500mg 176mg is ester weight. Eq needs to be run longer, at least 12 weeks at 400mg+. Also do t use hcg in pct it's suppressive. Use during cycle at 250iu twice per week. The night before your pin.
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Ok, so Ethonate it is. I just have to get some because I dont have any.
 
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