AAS and MMA

[NO HYPE]

Well if steroids are rampant in professional sports including prizefighting, then my general statement is correct unless you disagree.

Your example is flawed since you can't always assume that the guy who knocked him out wasn't on steroids in the first place.

Bullsh!t? A crappy fighter like Kimo would benefit from anabolic steroids, someone as skilled as Fedor would also benefit from steroids since strength is a primary attribute. Strength, stamina, speed and having a good chin are all primary attributes. To say strength is not a factor doesn't make sense.

And you haven't responded why training harder, longer, having less fat and having an easier time cutting while on steroids isn't an advantage.

Your statement was "why do competitors use steroids if it doesn't give them an advatage?" It does give them a physical advantage and I've already posted that. Go ahead see for yourself. What good is a physical advantage if ya can't find a opening to use it? What good is it if the opponent has a skill advantage? You never answered that question.

This statement was proceeded by your suggestion that the only way you can have a level playing field is if both of the fighters are using steroids. That's complete bullsh*t.

As far as my example being flawed, I really have no idea what you were trying to say so I can't respond.

"To say strength is not a factor doesn't make sense." Why are u stating things that are untrue. I didn't say it wasn't a factor, I said it wasn't "the determining factor in a fight."

 

[NO HYPE]

Well lets say that everybody said so and so was a great skilled fighter with much greater skills than his opponent. And then he loses when he was supposedly the more skilled man. It's just as hypothetical as your scenario really.

I'm sorry, but could you clarify that statement. I don't understand.

 

[NO HYPE]

I'm the founder of Team Dagger, on the quest for the most rep points as a stabbing leech who never goes Gold, like my boy Solomon. :twisted: Yes, Jas and Beo, that is the Spurious Psuedodevil, Alexander knows.

I'm quite interested in the seen out West. You and MIXEDUP are from the West coast correct? I don't know much about it cuz I'm on the other side of the country and the MMA seen out here is kinda lame at the moment. I have to hurry up and get an official record goin so I can fight at some bigger events as I can't use elbows or knees out here. Some bullsh*t state law. So anyways I'll be sure to look you guys up if I'm ever in the area.

 

[mixedup]

I'm quite interested in the seen out West. You and MIXEDUP are from the West coast correct? I don't know much about it cuz I'm on the other side of the country and the MMA seen out here is kinda lame at the moment. I have to hurry up and get an official record goin so I can fight at some bigger events as I can't use elbows or knees out here. Some bullsh*t state law. So anyways I'll be sure to look you guys up if I'm ever in the area.

Yeah the scene out here is blowing up strikeforce which is held in San Jose is the event that broke the north american record for attendance surpassing even the UFC. The only thing is that we have so many good camps your really have to be well rounded to fight at almost any event WE have so many famous camps within a 100 mile radius from ours which is under cesar gracie, to fairtex, to frank shamrocks school AKA where baroni was training his stand up at. It's unbelievable.

 

[NO HYPE]

Yeah the scene out here is blowing up strikeforce which is held in San Jose is the event that broke the north american record for attendance surpassing even the UFC. The only thing is that we have so many good camps your really have to be well rounded to fight at almost any event WE have so many famous camps within a 100 mile radius from ours which is under cesar gracie, to fairtex, to frank shamrocks school AKA where baroni was training his stand up at. It's unbelievable.

So it sounds like winning enough of those events would greatly improve one's chances of making it to UFC. Well I guess it really doesn't matter where you fight if you have the skills and determination to go all the way. Hell, Jorge Rivera faught out here with no elbows or knees before making UFC. How about you? Are you making your way to the top? Or are you just enjoying yourself?

 

[mixedup]

So it sounds like winning enough of those events would greatly improve one's chances of making it to UFC. Well I guess it really doesn't matter where you fight if you have the skills and determination to go all the way. Hell, Jorge Rivera faught out here with no elbows or knees before making UFC. How about you? Are you making your way to the top? Or are you just enjoying yourself?

Well we do have some of the biggest events out here KOTC Gladiator challenge IFC etc Sylvia, shogun Babalu, Lidell, Sanchez have all fought in one of those orgs. As for me making it to the top No I am too old and have too many injuries I'm just making a last run at competing right now before I get way too old lol. But I am realistic about my abilities I've rolled or trained with some of the best in the world and I know that I am not world class and probablly never would be. I fight basically for myself so that when I am old i can say I was a professional fighter at one time in my life and also so I can tell my kids about it one day. For me it's about personal accomplishments

 

[MarcusG]

Your statement was "why do competitors use steroids if it doesn't give them an advatage?" It does give them a physical advantage and I've already posted that. Go ahead see for yourself. What good is a physical advantage if ya can't find a opening to use it? What good is it if the opponent has a skill advantage? You never answered that question.

This statement was proceeded by your suggestion that the only way you can have a level playing field is if both of the fighters are using steroids. That's complete bullsh*t.

As far as my example being flawed, I really have no idea what you were trying to say so I can't respond.

"To say strength is not a factor doesn't make sense." Why are u stating things that are untrue. I didn't say it wasn't a factor, I said it wasn't "the determining factor in a fight."

A strength advantage can and will overcome a skill advantage. Just take a look at Matt Hughes-Gracie. Having more strength also means having the ability to wear down an opponent and getting ahead by attrition.

I was referring to your scenario you gave in your previous post
".....If strength is ALWAYS an advantage in a fight, than how do u justify it being an advantage when the stronger guy is layin on the mat, knocked the fu*k out?"

Steroids are an advantage for a competitor who is using them hence my comment about a level playing field.

 

[NO HYPE]

But I am realistic about my abilities I've rolled or trained with some of the best in the world and I know that I am not world class and probablly never would be. I fight basically for myself so that when I am old i can say I was a professional fighter at one time in my life and also so I can tell my kids about it one day. For me it's about personal accomplishments

Much respect.

 

[ktw]

I disagree about the strength thing. When I was training and competing, I was 170 at 6 foot 2, hardly strong, but I would submit lots of stronger guys or wear them down because I had better cardio and patience.

 

[ktw]

Plus look at the athletes who dont even weight train, let alone use. Fedor anyone?

 

[NO HYPE]

A strength advantage can and will overcome a skill advantage.

"A strength advantage can and will overcome a skill advantage." That's very amusing. That kind of mentallity is elementary at best.

I give up man. I can say the same thing over and over till my fingers won't type anymore or my computer catches on fire and you still won't see the truth. I've gathered from your statements, that you are not a fighter, but just a confused spectator.

 

[NO HYPE]

I disagree about the strength thing. When I was training and competing, I was 170 at 6 foot 2, hardly strong, but I would submit lots of stronger guys or wear them down because I had better cardio and patience.

Right on man. Some people will never understand unless they are put in the situation themselves. It's pretty easy to tout useless opinions from the outside of the ring.

 

[mixedup]

A strength advantage can and will overcome a skill advantage. Just take a look at Matt Hughes-Gracie. Having more strength also means having the ability to wear down an opponent and getting ahead by attrition.

Well you got to remember that although Royce may have had a skill advantage in BJJ Matt had a skill advantage in other aspect wresting etc. Also I would have say Matt was much more experienced and skilled without the gi as Royce spent most of his career fighting with the gi on. So that isn't a great example of strength over skill. I mean we could say the same thing of the BJ Penn/Hughes fight no one is going to doubt Matt was stronger but BJ used his better submission skills to choke him out. I will however concede that all things being = the stronger fighter will have an advantage however all things are never = in MMA

 

[jas123]

I think roids can also give you a huge mental/attitude/confidence advantage which benefits certain types of people more than others. The Kerr that smashed people in Vale Tudo was not the same as the Kerr that layed and prayed in some of his Pride matches. He never seemed to have the right personality for MMA, but given enough chemicals he could connect to his inner rage. Vitor is another example.

Baroni in his 2nd fight with Tanner also looked like he was off the juice and didn't come to fight that night....

 

[NO HYPE]

I will however concede that all things being = the stronger fighter will have an advantage however all things are never = in MMA

I agree that a fighter with more strength has a PHYSICAL advantage, however he still needs an oppertunity to utilize that advantage. Hence the comparison of strength vs. skill.
Now I'll revert to your conclusion.... All things are never equal in MMA.

 

[Nitrox]

I didn't say it wasn't a factor, I said it wasn't "the determining factor in a fight."

No I think what you were arguing against was:

And no he didn't imply that strength was everything, he just implied that strength is ALWAYS an advantage and that is bullsh*t.

which is not BS. Size, strength, stamina and skill are ALWAYS factors in a fight. The first two are the reasons for weight classes. If you don't believe that then that's your prerogative. Nobody is saying that just because fighter A is stronger than fighter B that A will win, just that it is ONE advantage that fighter A has OVER B, not the deciding factor. Capiche?

All else ain't equal. If all fighters were equal in skill, than there would be no winners. No reason for fighting. The stronger man must first FIND an oppertunity for it to be an advantage.

Just how did ya come to the conclusion that the guy who gets knocked uncoscious, is the more skilled opponent?

This is a theoretical discussion in which 'skill' is subjective. By the sounds of it, your definition of the more skilled fighter is the one who wins the fight, which is one way to look at it. However, take three fighters A, B, and C. A beats B, B beats C, but A loses to C. Or A beats B in one fight but loses to B in another. Who is the most skilled?

Also as MarcusG said, anabolics allow fighters to train longer and harder (some help with connective tissue as well); something that contributes to skill.

 

[NO HYPE]

No I think what you were arguing against was:


which is not BS. Size, strength, stamina and skill are ALWAYS factors in a fight. The first two are the reasons for weight classes. If you don't believe that then that's your prerogative. Nobody is saying that just because fighter A is stronger than fighter B that A will win, just that it is ONE advantage that fighter A has OVER B, not the deciding factor. Capiche?


This is a theoretical discussion in which 'skill' is subjective. By the sounds of it, your definition of the more skilled fighter is the one who wins the fight, which is one way to look at it. However, take three fighters A, B, and C. A beats B, B beats C, but A loses to C. Or A beats B in one fight but loses to B in another. Who is the most skilled?

Also as MarcusG said, anabolics allow fighters to train longer and harder (some help with connective tissue as well); something that contributes to skill.

I didn't state anything about size, strength, stamina and skill not being factors in a fight. I am an MMA fighter and I am quite aware of what factors are in a fight. This entire discussion was about strength vs. skill and how they both play a role but that strength in and of itself is not the determining factor in a fight.

Weight classes have nothing to do with size or strength and everything to do with weight. Otherwise they would be refered to as size classes or strength classes.

"this is a theoretical discussion in wich 'skill' is subjective", Yeah, just as subjective as strength. How can a person look at two fighters and say that just because one fighter is bigger and stronger than the other, that he has THE advantage. He has AN advantage physically but that will not be an advantage against a more skilled opponent.

And yes somebody was saying that just because fighter A is stronger than fighter B, that A will win. Read what he stated about Matt Hughes and Gracie.

 

[NO HYPE]

And yes somebody was saying that just because fighter A is stronger than fighter B, that A will win. Read what he stated about Matt Hughes and Gracie.

"A strength advantage can and will overcome a skill advantage."

 

[ktw]

No, it will not. Fedor does not lift weights and look how he has dismantled every good HW in the world, you think it's because he's strong? I doubt he's as strong as Randleman or Coleman is and he subbed them pretty well. Chuck Liddell is not strong in the weight room (I know a guy who trained with him that's how I know this) and he's doin pretty well right now. The list can go on and on. In grappling if you don't have everything down right it will not matter how strong you are, technique triumphs skill. Still don't believe me? How about Phil Baroni being horrible despite his good physique, same with Vitor Belfort, who despite being ripped proved that he is not at the same level as anyone else in his class

 

[ktw]

I will add that my coach wrestled on the olympic level for 12 years and only had us doing basics for strength training: Pullups, Hang cleans+power cleans, Squats, and deadlifts. which were the only things he ever did during his career and you can't say that he wasn't successful.

 

[Nitrox]

Weight classes have nothing to do with size or strength and everything to do with weight. Otherwise they would be refered to as size classes or strength classes.

:fool2: :frustrate

 

[jas123]

No, it will not. Fedor does not lift weights and look how he has dismantled every good HW in the world, you think it's because he's strong? I doubt he's as strong as Randleman or Coleman is and he subbed them pretty well. Chuck Liddell is not strong in the weight room (I know a guy who trained with him that's how I know this) and he's doin pretty well right now. The list can go on and on. In grappling if you don't have everything down right it will not matter how strong you are, technique triumphs skill. Still don't believe me? How about Phil Baroni being horrible despite his good physique, same with Vitor Belfort, who despite being ripped proved that he is not at the same level as anyone else in his class

Fedor may not lift weights in a gym, but I've seen clips of him doing strength building exercises like tire throws and sledgehammer work. He has a lot of explosive strength, watch him throw around Nog like a ragdoll. It's not on the level of Randleman or Coleman, though, like you said. Vitor is highly skilled. He lacks in the mental aspect of the game and gases too.

I think strength can definitely offset a skill discrepancy in some scenarios, ie good skill + extreme strength can beat great skill a reasonable amount of the time. Rampage is a great example. Watch him slam his way out of sub attempts. He also isn't the technical wrestler Linland is but slammed him hard twice.

 

[ktw]

My point with Fedor is that he does not do the typical weight training routine and doesnt have the muscularity of a lot of other athletes.

Lets all watch Nog V. Sapp, Sapp is 375 lbs of raw muscle and got owned by Nog., who is a lot smaller and weaker.

 

[NO HYPE]

Size, strength, are the reasons for weight classes.

Hmmmmm let's see.... Ah.... no actually, the reason we have different weight classes is to ensure that the two opponents fighting are within a 15lb variable. This means that the different weight classes are.... divided by WEIGHT. Not size or strength.

 

[ktw]

Why is it so hard for people to understand this? Anyone who has ever competed or followed MMA knows that this argument is stupid, strength rarely matters, same with size. Hell, Nick Diaz knocked out Robbie Lawler who was a lot stronger and bigger, you think it mattered then?

 

[Alexander]

My point with Fedor is that he does not do the typical weight training routine and doesnt have the muscularity of a lot of other athletes.

Lets all watch Nog V. Sapp, Sapp is 375 lbs of raw muscle and got owned by Nog., who is a lot smaller and weaker.

Funny you brought up Nog/Sapp. You say Sapp got owned by Nog. That is hilarious, it was more the other way around. Yes Nog won but he got pounded by someone with very little skill, all due to the strength discrepancy. Strength definitely matters. I have no grappling training at all, but I wrestle buddy's that wrestled in HS and wrestle in college now, and I can manhandle them because I'm so much stronger then them. I'm not saying skill isn't extremely important, but so is strength.

 

[jas123]

Yeah Nog's ability to take brutal beatings is the only reason he won that fight as well as the CC fight.

 

[ktw]

Funny you brought up Nog/Sapp. You say Sapp got owned by Nog. That is hilarious, it was more the other way around. Yes Nog won but he got pounded by someone with very little skill, all due to the strength discrepancy. Strength definitely matters. I have no grappling training at all, but I wrestle buddy's that wrestled in HS and wrestle in college now, and I can manhandle them because I'm so much stronger then them. I'm not saying skill isn't extremely important, but so is strength.

Your buddy's aren't very good then, plain and simple. A guy we have wrestles on an international level at 185, he definately kills me when I'm at 205 even though I lift more than him. Why you ask? Because he has lightning fast speed, experience, and near perfect technique.

I used the Nog example because the same thing has happened with me and stronger guys, they get this ego like they're invincible, come out swinging, get gassed, and then subbed by someone much smaller.

Another example of strength not being an advantage is Ken Shamrock. He always comes out hard, but gasses super fast like most guys who weight train too much, and his skill level has detiorated so much that he can't win against anyone decent.

I think it's safe to say that since you have no experience in MMA that you can not actually make a good case for your point, just like a lot of people in this thread. I get great pleasure from subbing new trainees who think like you. Very humbling when they get choked out because they have no idea where to leave their arms while in the guard or stick their head out too much on a shot. Even as they improve, having years of experience over them will always give me an advantage because I have been in every possible situation and learned something from it. Most crappy people who fight in Rage in the Cage are roided out dorks like Edwin Dewees who have no skill but can bench 315 so they automatically let their ego get ahead of them.

 

[B4n3 0n3]

Your buddy's aren't very good then, plain and simple. A guy we have wrestles on an international level at 185, he definately kills me when I'm at 205 even though I lift more than him. Why you ask? Because he has lightning fast speed, experience, and near perfect technique.

I used the Nog example because the same thing has happened with me and stronger guys, they get this ego like they're invincible, come out swinging, get gassed, and then subbed by someone much smaller.

Another example of strength not being an advantage is Ken Shamrock. He always comes out hard, but gasses super fast like most guys who weight train too much, and his skill level has detiorated so much that he can't win against anyone decent.

I think it's safe to say that since you have no experience in MMA that you can not actually make a good case for your point, just like a lot of people in this thread. I get great pleasure from subbing new trainees who think like you. Very humbling when they get choked out because they have no idea where to leave their arms while in the guard or stick their head out too much on a shot. Even as they improve, having years of experience over them will always give me an advantage because I have been in every possible situation and learned something from it. Most crappy people who fight in Rage in the Cage are roided out dorks like Edwin Dewees who have no skill but can bench 315 so they automatically let their ego get ahead of them.

It sounds like you are talking about a trained fighter against just any dude off the street with no skill at all, thats a retarded comparison. And yes I have alot of expirience on the mat.

 

[mixedup]

Why is it so hard for people to understand this? Anyone who has ever competed or followed MMA knows that this argument is stupid, strength rarely matters, same with size. Hell, Nick Diaz knocked out Robbie Lawler who was a lot stronger and bigger, you think it mattered then?

What makes you think lawler is stronger than Nick?

 

[ktw]

Rogue is right, just reference Ken Shamrock's lack of stamina to prove it.

Also, Nick Diaz barely lifts weights, I know one of his training partners, Diaz is very weak in the weight room while Lawler is definately a juicer and is very strong.

 

[mixedup]

Rogue is right, just reference Ken Shamrock's lack of stamina to prove it.

Also, Nick Diaz barely lifts weights, I know one of his training partners, Diaz is very weak in the weight room while Lawler is definately a juicer and is very strong.

Hey KTW: what camp are you out of? maybe we know some of the same people? I am out of one of Cesar's Schools here in the bay area. Gil Melendez teaches here sometime as our head trainer trained with him and Jake Shields. my original trainer is Joao Pierini he was the head bjj trainer for gladiators gym Eugene Jackson, Tim Laijick, He fought in the UFC himself also. I have fought in the IFC and in Warriors Quest in Hawaii. and am now training with my new camp to make a return. Glad to meet other fighters on here

 

[ktw]

I don't train in California and I stopped training last semester due to school.

I train at a very small camp. Our coach is Jeff Funicello, he was on the olympic Greco-Roman team for 12 years. He was an AAU kickboxing champion in the early 90's and competed in a lot of smaller events. I know he won a few Silver metals at the Pan Am games, not sure what else he won but he has a long list of 1st place matches against some reputable wrestler. He never did any huge matches himself but was part of the origonal Team Phoenix with Don Frye and is best friends with Dan Henderson and trains often with Dan and Randy Couture. He was actually scheduled to fight in PHX in the early 90s against Renzo Gracie, but the card was canceled at the last minute because the venue refused to broadcast the event. He is an absolutely phenominal wrestling coach, and is very well rounded. He usually trains with Hendo before his upcoming Pride matches. We've actually had Hendo, Heath Sims, Couture, etc. as guest technicians before. Most of the year we also have a guy named Dave Spangler, the Air Force wrestling coach who is a beast has near perfect technique. A few of our guys wrestle internationally, one of the up and comers is Abe Haddon, guy is also a beast. As you can probably tell we focus a lot on the Greco aspect. Recently we got a bjj specialist, his name is Keiran Gallagher, he is a black belt under the one of the Machado schools, very accomplished grappler, very unorthodox. Jeff basically teaches us the Greco and striking aspect along with most of the ground work and Keiran is sort of the refiner and teaches us a lot of interesting little details that are very helpful.

So ya, pretty small school, very well rounded and experienced people, we usually send guys to Grapplers Quest events and smaller tourneys like RITC and KOTC. Jeff actually coached a guy that I think was in UFC 9 or 10, I'll try to get his name but he won his fight and was fairly big at the time.

Drew Fickett started out under Jeff, and so did a few other AZ based fighters. As I said I am not training right now. My goal is to bulk up a little bit and then drop some bodyfat so I can eventually compete in the light heavyweight class. I hope to return Spring semester or Fall 07, not training is so friggin boring you don't even know.

 

[ktw]

Also forgot to add most of my match experience is between local schools and meets. I trained for 2 years and was fairly good in my weight class, then I gained 30 lbs and had some catching up to do with my skill and stamina. As I said I hope to compete at 205 eventually.

 

[MarcusG]

No, it will not. Fedor does not lift weights and look how he has dismantled every good HW in the world, you think it's because he's strong? I doubt he's as strong as Randleman or Coleman is and he subbed them pretty well. Chuck Liddell.....Phil Baroni......Vitor Belfort

Wrong.

Fedor lifted alot of weights and he said so especially in his judo days. Since he already has a very good weightlifting base he focuses more on speed and power exercises. People who attended his Cali seminar have said that he is very very strong and powerful.

Nogueira is also very strong. When he had surgery on his arm, the doctor commented that his tendons were twice as large from the norm. And recently for the OWGP he said he was spending more time in the gym to bulk up to 240 because he wanted the extra strength because he felt he was too weak. So much for just skill.

Baroni/Vitor are explosive athletes and aren't naturally built for endurance whether or not they lift weights. And Vitor is at least on the same level as Tito. He only lost via a narrow split decision.

 

[feelingfizzy]

jeff monson when he fought chuck lideel at 205 was incrdibaly dense in terms of muscle. if he lost a little more water he would have looked incredibel

 

[jas123]

I didn't think this deserved it's own thread, but Bonnar tested positive for Boldenone in his last fight. Roids don't win fights I guess.

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[Rodja]

I didn't think this deserved it's own thread, but Bonnar tested positive for Boldenone in his last fight. Roids don't win fights I guess.

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No, but EQ would help out with RBC count and stamina because EQ is not a mass or a strength steroid.

 

[jas123]

Nice avator, Rodja. I had a picture of Wandy doing strongman lifts with tires, but I don't have the required "status" to have an avator.

 

[ersatz]

I didn't think this deserved it's own thread, but Bonnar tested positive for Boldenone in his last fight. Roids don't win fights I guess.

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Nate Marquardt avoid any suspension or fines when he tested postive for anabolics by saying he mistaken and unknowingly took OTC supps contain ph/steroids. Bonnar should do the same and say he took I-Force's bold. Of course he may lose his Xyience or Fizogen contract or whatever supp contract but at least he can save some face.

 

[Bionic]

Bonnar's a douche. He shouldn't even be in the UFC. He pisses me off. LOL! Sorry. Just had to get that off my chest.

 

[Rodja]

Nate Marquardt avoid any suspension or fines when he tested postive for anabolics by saying he mistaken and unknowingly took OTC supps contain ph/steroids. Bonnar should do the same and say he took I-Force's bold. Of course he may lose his Xyience or Fizogen contract or whatever supp contract but at least he can save some face.

Marquardt's positive test was a false positive; when he took the B sample it came back clean.

 

[brk_nemesis]

Yeah, I just saw Ultimate Knockouts on Spike, and there was a guy, I think his name was Brad Kohler, who was absolutely massive. Huge and thick throughout, with a thick midsection. Looked like a lean powerlifter. No question he was juicing.


On to the next question: Do you think anabolic steroids in MMA is ethical?

lol, the knockout on that muay tai guy i think was classic. lol kohler just jumps bak and forth lookin like hes doin a lat flex lol, and BAM knocks the crap outta the other guy. i think it lasted 30 secs as well. lol hes style of fighting is similar to what ive been training, move around alot, when doing standup use the strength adv. to get in close even if reach advantage is better and then get out. a 210 lb guy a foot away will do more damage with his hands than by take a scenic route and simply stay back throwin useless jabs. of course i guess u could kinda say he was doin this at first lol.
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sux he lost a lot of his last matches, prob.attribute him being round 39-40 during his last losses. heard he was a crap promoter too......maybe he lost b/c of his guilt lol.. too bad.