(30M) about to give up on pro hormones

[YmanDizzle]

I have been trying to educate myself for a good year on how exactly to take them safely. All I get is conflicting info. I can't even get a straight answer to "First timer wanting to take 1-Andro. What else should I take with it, and what PCT do you recommend?" I then get a wide variety of answers telling me that 1-andro is/isn't suppressive. It is/isn't garbage, you do/don't need PCT. etc. A full freaking year has gone by and I still can't figure it out. The only people who are actually knowledgeable are very condescending and vague in their answers as if I'm supposed to somehow know what they are talking about. I'm shocked at the lack of community, and the lack of education especially on youtube. Can someone PLEASE just end this sh*t for me already so I can either pull the trigger and dive in, or stick with my mediocre natural gains?!

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

1 andro you say? its perfect for you. its not a GOAT hormone but it will work great for beginners. Do you need a serm pct? probably, but maybe not. confusing right? dont let it get you down. I think most guys will tell you not to mess around with no pct, at least until you are certain you know what you are doing.

Apex alchemy has a buy one get one free offer on its 1 andro TD (applies to the skin ) called Primagen! you couldnt be asking at a better time.
if you end up gong that route, i would probably recommend you take 1 ml twice per day.

go ahead buddy .. pull the trigger. better gains await you.

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

Rule 1 to this game is that you should never expect same answer when it comes to hormonals

yeah some will be right and some will be wrong .. its always gonna be up to you to pick the right choice .. but its wrong to say that the forum hasnt been helpful.

in 2 years you made one post .. its okay to join and just lurk .. but conversate and make friends and continue to take advice in and then go back to the drawing board and make a decision your self.

 

[Renew1]

I have been trying to educate myself for a good year on how exactly to take them safely. All I get is conflicting info. I can't even get a straight answer to "First timer wanting to take 1-Andro. What else should I take with it, and what PCT do you recommend?" I then get a wide variety of answers telling me that 1-andro is/isn't suppressive. It is/isn't garbage, you do/don't need PCT. etc. A full freaking year has gone by and I still can't figure it out. The only people who are actually knowledgeable are very condescending and vague in their answers as if I'm supposed to somehow know what they are talking about. I'm shocked at the lack of community, and the lack of education especially on youtube. Can someone PLEASE just end this sh*t for me already so I can either pull the trigger and dive in, or stick with my mediocre natural gains?!

Yep, what @xR1pp3Rx said. ^

Use a SERM, be safe.

Primagen

Apex Alchemy is proud to introduce our topical blend, Primagen! Primagen comes packages in a stylish and easy to use 30mL bottle with graduated dropper. Click the pictures to learn more!

www.apex-alchemy.com

 

[Whisky]

Out of interest are you referring to a lack of community on this forum? Fair enough if that’s your view but not something I’ve seen (where people actually ask a fair question).

in order to assist your decision making we need some info.

your age, height
Your years training
1 (or 3 or 5) rep maxes on the big lifts

this is simply so we can ascertain whether you’ve reached a point where natural gains can’t be achieved to a good degree through nutrition and training alone (I.e very few people here will advise a 6 ft, 140lb, 20 yr old with a 220 dead and 180 squat to jump on gear. Simply sorting nutrition and training will deliver far more than any prohormone in that example).

assuming the above leads to jumping on a PH as a sensible idea.....then

i personally like 1-andro as a first cycle substance (it was mine), imo it is suppressive for most (bear in mind that people do react differently to different compounds so no one can give you a definitive answer on things, we can only talk about what we believe is the case for the majority)

1-andro did bring on lethargy for me, it converts to 1-testosterone and in particular is good for strength (as opposed to size). Because it will suppress your natural testosterone (and it doesn’t convert to estrogen itself) your gonna likely feel pretty shitty running it solo. This is why most people will stack anything like that with a ‘test base’. Basically something that provides the feel good, libido and get up and go we normal get from testosterone (and/or it’s Conversion to estrogen). 4-andro is the classic one to stack with 1-andro although 4-ad does the same (both are prohormones). Of course I’m assume you don’t want to inject as the safest and best solution is to inject testosterone but I get that’s not for everyone (I didn’t for my first two cycles).

an 8-10 week, 1/4 andro stack with at least 330mg Ed of both yields solid results (we assume your training and nutrition will be on point) - you’ll absolutely know you are enhanced (I PR’d all the big lifts by 25lbs plus)

in my opinion you absolutely should run a full pct. 4 weeks of clomid (50/25/25/12.5) or nolva (20/20/10/10) would be solid. Throw in any natty test booster you like on top. Make sure you keep lifting heavy during pct to give your body a reason to keep the new muscle (harder than it sounds).

final point though bro. Before you pull the trigger you need to be aware that regardless of how many supports and how correctly you do things, you will be messing with your natural hormones. Yes there are guys that blast crazy amounts of gear for years, come off with no pct and recover their natural levels fully but there are also guys who run one ph cycle perfectly and their natural levels never come back up. The chances are low but it’s a risk you have to be aware of. If you haven’t had kids but want them
You need to consider it. If you are young then do you want to be on lifelong trt in your 20s.

my story, I waited till I was mid 30s, accepted that if the worst happened I could live with trt, and I’d had the snip as didn’t want more than the 2 Kids I had.

hope all that helps

 

[YmanDizzle]

Out of interest are you referring to a lack of community on this forum? Fair enough if that’s your view but not something I’ve seen (where people actually ask a fair question).

in order to assist your decision making we need some info.

your age, height
Your years training
1 (or 3 or 5) rep maxes on the big lifts

this is simply so we can ascertain whether you’ve reached a point where natural gains can’t be achieved to a good degree through nutrition and training alone (I.e very few people here will advise a 6 ft, 140lb, 20 yr old with a 220 dead and 180 squat to jump on gear. Simply sorting nutrition and training will deliver far more than any prohormone in that example).

assuming the above leads to jumping on a PH as a sensible idea.....then

i personally like 1-andro as a first cycle substance (it was mine), imo it is suppressive for most (bear in mind that people do react differently to different compounds so no one can give you a definitive answer on things, we can only talk about what we believe is the case for the majority)

1-andro did bring on lethargy for me, it converts to 1-testosterone and in particular is good for strength (as opposed to size). Because it will suppress your natural testosterone (and it doesn’t convert to estrogen itself) your gonna likely feel pretty shitty running it solo. This is why most people will stack anything like that with a ‘test base’. Basically something that provides the feel good, libido and get up and go we normal get from testosterone (and/or it’s Conversion to estrogen). 4-andro is the classic one to stack with 1-andro although 4-ad does the same (both are prohormones). Of course I’m assume you don’t want to inject as the safest and best solution is to inject testosterone but I get that’s not for everyone (I didn’t for my first two cycles).

an 8-10 week, 1/4 andro stack with at least 330mg Ed of both yields solid results (we assume your training and nutrition will be on point) - you’ll absolutely know you are enhanced (I PR’d all the big lifts by 25lbs plus)

in my opinion you absolutely should run a full pct. 4 weeks of clomid (50/25/25/12.5) or nolva (20/20/10/10) would be solid. Throw in any natty test booster you like on top. Make sure you keep lifting heavy during pct to give your body a reason to keep the new muscle (harder than it sounds).

final point though bro. Before you pull the trigger you need to be aware that regardless of how many supports and how correctly you do things, you will be messing with your natural hormones. Yes there are guys that blast crazy amounts of gear for years, come off with no pct and recover their natural levels fully but there are also guys who run one ph cycle perfectly and their natural levels never come back up. The chances are low but it’s a risk you have to be aware of. If you haven’t had kids but want them
You need to consider it. If you are young then do you want to be on lifelong trt in your 20s.

my story, I waited till I was mid 30s, accepted that if the worst happened I could live with trt, and I’d had the snip as didn’t want more than the 2 Kids I had.

hope all that helps

 

[YmanDizzle]

THANK YOU!

I'm turning 30 in a month. 5'6
Been lifting since I was 16. Seriously lifting since I was about 23-24.
Before a wrist injury, I was able to bench 315 for 1 rep.

What is Ed?

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

THANK YOU!

I'm turning 30 in a month. 5'6
Been lifting since I was 16. Seriously lifting since I was about 23-24.
Before a wrist injury, I was able to bench 315 for 1 rep.

What is Ed?

Everyday

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

ED=everyday
EoD = every other day
E3D= every third day
and so on

 

[Whisky]

THANK YOU!

I'm turning 30 in a month. 5'6
Been lifting since I was 16. Seriously lifting since I was about 23-24.
Before a wrist injury, I was able to bench 315 for 1 rep.

What is Ed?

ok cool, I’m that case I stand by my suggestion re the cycle and pct (honestly you’d be amazed how many kids we get just wanting to blast gear before they’ve ever actually trained properly )

I think you’ll like the 1/4 andro combo bro. Only downside is really the cost (it’s expensive to run properly) but it’s a really decent intro to the enhanced game. I also added epiandro at 1,000mg Ed (most pwo) to my stack. Epiandro also brings some libido boost and aggression (it’s a dht though so not sure if hair loss is a concern for you although I guess at 30 you probably know if you have MPB?)

 

[brofessorx]

What is Ed?

Erectile dysfunction...... what you’ll be experiencing after you take those dangerous pro hormones......

 

[Mathb33]

Erectile dysfunction...... what you’ll be experiencing after you take those dangerous pro hormones......

Lol common now. You sound like mommy who’s trying to scare her 8 years old saying smoking pot will kill him.

 

[SouthPawSD]

ok cool, I’m that case I stand by my suggestion re the cycle and pct (honestly you’d be amazed how many kids we get just wanting to blast gear before they’ve ever actually trained properly )

I think you’ll like the 1/4 andro combo bro. Only downside is really the cost (it’s expensive to run properly) but it’s a really decent intro to the enhanced game. I also added epiandro at 1,000mg Ed (most pwo) to my stack. Epiandro also brings some libido boost and aggression (it’s a dht though so not sure if hair loss is a concern for you although I guess at 30 you probably know if you have MPB?)

Even after jumping into injectables I still like to add Epiandro, especially as a preworkout boost

 

[Renew1]

Even after jumping into injectables I still like to add Epiandro, especially as a preworkout boost

I use it too.

 

[Whisky]

Even after jumping into injectables I still like to add Epiandro, especially as a preworkout boost

yeah I get more from epiandro than I do oral trest pwo tbh

 

[Mathb33]

yeah I get more from epiandro than I do oral trest pwo tbh

I’ll really have to try that Épi andro pre workout one day or another. Right now can’t add that on my blast tho I’ve add enough but a lot of guys here are saying it’s very nice. I’m taking notes!

 

[Mathb33]

yeah I get more from epiandro than I do oral trest pwo tbh

I’ll really have to try that Épi andro pre workout one day or another. Right now can’t add that on my blast tho I’ve add enough but a lot of guys here are saying it’s very nice. I’m taking notes!

 

[Jinsun]

I have been trying to educate myself for a good year on how exactly to take them safely. All I get is conflicting info. I can't even get a straight answer to "First timer wanting to take 1-Andro. What else should I take with it, and what PCT do you recommend?" I then get a wide variety of answers telling me that 1-andro is/isn't suppressive. It is/isn't garbage, you do/don't need PCT. etc. A full freaking year has gone by and I still can't figure it out. The only people who are actually knowledgeable are very condescending and vague in their answers as if I'm supposed to somehow know what they are talking about. I'm shocked at the lack of community, and the lack of education especially on youtube. Can someone PLEASE just end this sh*t for me already so I can either pull the trigger and dive in, or stick with my mediocre natural gains?!

Ok, here you go, a complete answers (if there ever was such a thing).

1. Andro's are the most weak thing you can take but at the same time the most expensive.
2. Andro's at meaningful dosages will shut you down. So you do need a pct, but it wont be a hard PCT like from 19nor's.
3. Andro's need enzymes to convert them to their most potent metabolites. DHB in the case of 1-Andro and Testosterone in the case of 4-Andro. This enzymatic conversion is a hit or miss. This is why you might find great cycle logs or bad ones. In my experience I saw a lot more bad ones then good ones. I also had a bad experience with 1, 4, and epi andro. Felt like chit. Got shutdown, had almost no test (did bloods mid cycle) and ended up pinning test.
4. Because Andro's shut you down and don't necessarily produce results, and are pricey af, it makes very little sense to run them instead of your regular aas like tbol, anavar, dbol, anadrol, etc. An 8 week anavar cycle with some dbol for estrogen will be much better and cheaper.
5. Andro's are liver toxic. Var is less liver toxic.
6. It is not hard to get good var or tbol, etc. You just need to know your sources. Plenty of UGL's that regulary send their gear to lab's. Don't get fooled by the notion that all var or all primo is fake.


So, the only reason why you would want to get down the Andro's route is if you are a total newb and don't know the aas "market", scene that well. You can buy Andro's legally at online supplement shops. But do keep in mind that this supp companies are under a lot less scrutiny then a decent UGL that get's their gear regularly tested and is under a lot of scrutiny from forum members. So it's harder getting legit gear.

If you don't want to buy aas and want to stick to the semi legal market, go with PH's. Epistane, DMZ, M1a, etc. You'll need an estrogen/dht base, if you don't want to feel like total crap for 8 weeks, but that is your choice. It's also not just how you feel, having low estrogen diminishes your gains and is quite unhealthy. What really helps is hcg, 250IU eod. That will keep your nuts in good working order for the duration of the cycle and will help with mood/libido and estrogen to an extent.

Anyway, buy Andro's if you are inclined to do so. 4-andro needs to be dosed high. Imo 330mg's is not enough to feel good. You need 2x or 3x as much to have test in 800 - 1000 range. Also 1-Andro at 330mg's is not going to do much. Definitely do stack both with Epiandro if you've got the money for it. It's just pure DHT but it will help a lot with energy levels.

 

[UNX]

@Jinsun Are Andros liver toxic? I know that DHB has been related with liver enlargement.

 

[Whisky]

Ok, here you go, a complete answers (if there ever was such a thing).

1. Andro's are the most weak thing you can take but at the same time the most expensive.
2. Andro's at meaningful dosages will shut you down. So you do need a pct, but it wont be a hard PCT like from 19nor's.
3. Andro's need enzymes to convert them to their most potent metabolites. DHB in the case of 1-Andro and Testosterone in the case of 4-Andro. This enzymatic conversion is a hit or miss. This is why you might find great cycle logs or bad ones. In my experience I saw a lot more bad ones then good ones. I also had a bad experience with 1, 4, and epi andro. Felt like chit. Got shutdown, had almost no test (did bloods mid cycle) and ended up pinning test.
4. Because Andro's shut you down and don't necessarily produce results, and are pricey af, it makes very little sense to run them instead of your regular aas like tbol, anavar, dbol, anadrol, etc. An 8 week anavar cycle with some dbol for estrogen will be much better and cheaper.
5. Andro's are liver toxic. Var is less liver toxic.
6. It is not hard to get good var or tbol, etc. You just need to know your sources. Plenty of UGL's that regulary send their gear to lab's. Don't get fooled by the notion that all var or all primo is fake.


So, the only reason why you would want to get down the Andro's route is if you are a total newb and don't know the aas "market", scene that well. You can buy Andro's legally at online supplement shops. But do keep in mind that this supp companies are under a lot less scrutiny then a decent UGL that get's their gear regularly tested and is under a lot of scrutiny from forum members. So it's harder getting legit gear.

If you don't want to buy aas and want to stick to the semi legal market, go with PH's. Epistane, DMZ, M1a, etc. You'll need an estrogen/dht base, if you don't want to feel like total crap for 8 weeks, but that is your choice. It's also not just how you feel, having low estrogen diminishes your gains and is quite unhealthy. What really helps is hcg, 250IU eod. That will keep your nuts in good working order for the duration of the cycle and will help with mood/libido and estrogen to an extent.

Anyway, buy Andro's if you are inclined to do so. 4-andro needs to be dosed high. Imo 330mg's is not enough to feel good. You need 2x or 3x as much to have test in 800 - 1000 range. Also 1-Andro at 330mg's is not going to do much. Definitely do stack both with Epiandro if you've got the money for it. It's just pure DHT but it will help a lot with energy levels.

330mg is literally the studied dose for 1-andro. It will provide results for most Imo. I’m not saying it’s anything near pinning test or using proper aas but andros also come with less issues/sides (dbol can give an estro problem for some and an ai is likely needed, var is tough to find legit when you don’t have sources, lots of people feel **** off epistane, dmz but heavy for a first cycle imo).

like every single compound, some people don’t respond and other respond brilliantly. Personally I’ve seen more people get reasonable results from a properly doses andro run than not bro?

 

[Jinsun]

330mg is literally the studied dose for 1-andro. It will provide results for most Imo. I’m not saying it’s anything near pinning test or using proper aas but andros also come with less issues/sides (dbol can give an estro problem for some and an ai is likely needed, var is tough to find legit when you don’t have sources, lots of people feel **** off epistane, dmz but heavy for a first cycle imo).

like every single compound, some people don’t respond and other respond brilliantly. Personally I’ve seen more people get reasonable results from a properly doses andro run than not bro?

Idk I've seen andro's bashed a lot more then anything else. On par with sarms. Like I've noted, imo it's the enzymatic conversion. It's unreliable. Also untrustworthy supp companies.

Why would you just dismiss dbol? At 10mg ed it's a good estro base.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

yeah I get more from epiandro than I do oral trest pwo tbh

thats becasue the wicced pwo effects every one talks about comes from the PH to trest, not trest itself. Mentabolan is what makes a good pre. that said, i love epi pre work out and as part of just about any stack.

 

[brofessorx]

Lol common now. You sound like mommy who’s trying to scare her 8 years old saying smoking pot will kill him.

It’s true! Pot is the devils grass! Have you ever seen refer madness? It’s based on a true story!
steroids will make your titties grow and your penis shrink!

 

[brofessorx]

Ok, here you go, a complete answers (if there ever was such a thing).

1. Andro's are the most weak thing you can take but at the same time the most expensive.
2. Andro's at meaningful dosages will shut you down. So you do need a pct, but it wont be a hard PCT like from 19nor's.
3. Andro's need enzymes to convert them to their most potent metabolites. DHB in the case of 1-Andro and Testosterone in the case of 4-Andro. This enzymatic conversion is a hit or miss. This is why you might find great cycle logs or bad ones. In my experience I saw a lot more bad ones then good ones. I also had a bad experience with 1, 4, and epi andro. Felt like chit. Got shutdown, had almost no test (did bloods mid cycle) and ended up pinning test.
4. Because Andro's shut you down and don't necessarily produce results, and are pricey af, it makes very little sense to run them instead of your regular aas like tbol, anavar, dbol, anadrol, etc. An 8 week anavar cycle with some dbol for estrogen will be much better and cheaper.
5. Andro's are liver toxic. Var is less liver toxic.
6. It is not hard to get good var or tbol, etc. You just need to know your sources. Plenty of UGL's that regulary send their gear to lab's. Don't get fooled by the notion that all var or all primo is fake.


So, the only reason why you would want to get down the Andro's route is if you are a total newb and don't know the aas "market", scene that well. You can buy Andro's legally at online supplement shops. But do keep in mind that this supp companies are under a lot less scrutiny then a decent UGL that get's their gear regularly tested and is under a lot of scrutiny from forum members. So it's harder getting legit gear.

If you don't want to buy aas and want to stick to the semi legal market, go with PH's. Epistane, DMZ, M1a, etc. You'll need an estrogen/dht base, if you don't want to feel like total crap for 8 weeks, but that is your choice. It's also not just how you feel, having low estrogen diminishes your gains and is quite unhealthy. What really helps is hcg, 250IU eod. That will keep your nuts in good working order for the duration of the cycle and will help with mood/libido and estrogen to an extent.

Anyway, buy Andro's if you are inclined to do so. 4-andro needs to be dosed high. Imo 330mg's is not enough to feel good. You need 2x or 3x as much to have test in 800 - 1000 range. Also 1-Andro at 330mg's is not going to do much. Definitely do stack both with Epiandro if you've got the money for it. It's just pure DHT but it will help a lot with energy levels.

Were you high when you wrote this or are you really this unknowledgeable?

 

[brofessorx]

@Jinsun Are Andros liver toxic? I know that DHB has been related with liver enlargement.

Pay no attention to what he said. It’s mostly nonsense.

 

[brofessorx]

thats becasue the wicced pwo effects every one talks about comes from the PH to trest, not trest itself. Mentabolan is what makes a good pre. that said, i love epi pre work out and as part of just about any stack.

I enjoyed chewing mentabolan tablets before working out. They tasted kind of like aspirin and pepper.

 

[Jinsun]

Pay no attention to what he said. It’s mostly nonsense.

Don't let this discourage you OP. He is just trolling.

 

[Whisky]

Idk I've seen andro's bashed a lot more then anything else. On par with sarms. Like I've noted, imo it's the enzymatic conversion. It's unreliable. Also untrustworthy supp companies.

Why would you just dismiss dbol? At 10mg ed it's a good estro base.

I definitely don’t dismiss dbol as an estro base, recommended it myself on other threads.....

but the dude is asking about andros and is on a first cycle, dbol is just a stronger compound and on the basis that we all covert at differing rates and need differing levels of estrogen to feel I would personally suggest going that route requires a touch more experience. Plus at 10mg he’d need to run with something else to get results and as I mention, var isn’t the easiest to source as a newbie to this.

andros are easy to run, relatively safe, easy to recover from and pretty easy to source legit

 

[Jinsun]

I definitely don’t dismiss dbol as an estro base, recommended it myself on other threads.....

but the dude is asking about andros and is on a first cycle, dbol is just a stronger compound and on the basis that we all covert at differing rates and need differing levels of estrogen to feel I would personally suggest going that route requires a touch more experience.

Well ... the same goes with andro's. I mean, you could say the exact same thing for 4andro. Really, I don't see a difference.

Regarding shutdown, 4andro, if you actually achieve a meaningful test level, you will be shutdown, period. And then there's 1-andro, again, if you achieve meaningful levels of DHB in your blood serum, you will be shutdown. Period : )

I'll send the op some good sources if he wants to. This forum is getting a bit to heavy, everybody is a rep for a supp company. I get it that, it's business, but let the business flow in an objectively honest discourse. Then if the op decides to go with andro's it's his choice made from honest opinions. We'll lose a lot of credibility as a community if ya'll continue to push products in such an obvious manner.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

i want to know just how you feel that these are liver toxic? none of them are methylated. can you sight your source?

 

[Pl4typu5]

I love andro’s but I run test year round and not sure I would run them without test.

Not sure about 1 & 4, not much experience with those but epiandro and androsterone make everything better for me, androsterone is my one true love. I’m running test, var, alpha seven right now and it’s an awesome feel good cycle.

 

[Whisky]

Well ... the same goes with andro's. I mean, you could say the exact same thing for 4andro. Really, I don't see a difference.

Regarding shutdown, 4andro, if you actually achieve a meaningful test level, you will be shutdown, period. And then there's 1-andro, again, if you achieve meaningful levels of DHB in your blood serum, you will be shutdown. Period : )

I'll send the op some good sources if he wants to. This forum is getting a bit to heavy, everybody is a rep for a supp company. I get it that, it's business, but let the business flow in an objectively honest discourse. Then if the op decides to go with andro's it's his choice made from honest opinions. We'll lose a lot of credibility as a community if ya'll continue to push products in such an obvious manner.

haha, I’m no rep bro (I’m also in the uk so have literally no skin in the game) Andros were my first cycle but I’ve been pinning test for years. Imo there is no question test is the safest and best way to go (health, finance, results etc) but the dude doesn’t want to pin (I assume) and it’s my genuine opinion the andros are a safe and sensible way to dip ones toe in.

i totally agree with you he’ll be shut down (see my first post), he’ll absolutely need a pct imo but he’ll recover quicker and easier off that than he will most other cycles.

 

[booneman77]

There's one VERY basic reason for all the contradictory/confusing info... EVERYTHING hormonal will be unique to each and every person. There is literally no hormonal compound on earth (including the ones naturally produced in your body) that will work exactly the same person to person. Diet, lifestyle, body type, body comp, natural hormones, and everything else all has an influence on how things work for one person or another. It's at best a "good estimate" how something will work and even the same person, the same compound can have different results based on changes to any of the other millions of variables during its use.

The simple answer to whether you should do something or not is 100% up to you and the amount of confidence you have in your best guess based on research and hypothesis that you come to. Once you run it, you will have an even more educated guess for the next run, but even then, there will be new variables (age, hormonal fluctuations/recovery post cycle, etc etc).

The human body is one giant moving target and you just have to take your best shot and balance estimated risk vs assumed reward each and every time.

 

[Jinsun]

i want to know just how you feel that these are liver toxic? none of them are methylated. can you sight your source?

I've done bloods on 1,4 and epiandro. Had elevated enzymes. I've read lot's of topics on forums from users who did the same and found out they had elevated enzymes as well. Imo this is common knowledge. It was thought that andro's don't elevate enzymes but then in practice that wasnt the case. Just bc something isnt methylated or alkylated dosesnt mean it doesn't strain the liver. Not saying you'll damage your liver, but you are straining it.

 

[Jinsun]

haha, I’m no rep bro (I’m also in the uk so have literally no skin in the game) Andros were my first cycle but I’ve been pinning test for years. Imo there is no question test is the safest and best way to go (health, finance, results etc) but the dude doesn’t want to pin (I assume) and it’s my genuine opinion the andros are a safe and sensible way to dip ones toe in.

i totally agree with you he’ll be shut down (see my first post), he’ll absolutely need a pct imo but he’ll recover quicker and easier off that than he will most other cycles.

Ok.

I think there is no reason why one would spend 300 bucks or more for a low kicking andro cycle (that you have no idea how and if it will work) where he can spend 150 for a properly potent var and dbol cycle. Or tbol and dbol. Or var and topical estrogen. Or tbol, estrogen and hcg. Etc. I have both at hand and it works out just great. Why would the andro cycle be safer? Yeah, he is a beginner, so what. How many beginners have done normal oral only cycles and have lived to tell the tale? They are all dead, bevare, everybody come to AM where pro's will steer you in the right direction, the only true bodybuilding supps there are: Andro's! I don't see andro's being recommended over aas on any sensible board or by any industry professionals that aren't reps or afiliated in any sort of way with supp companies (or board frends with reps).

I've read no sensible arguments on this topic. Just trolling, semi attacks and rep propaganda. This topic is out of hand. Hope to find ya'll a nother day when we'll be able to have a more sensible conversation. And this is precisely the reason why op is confused btw.

 

[Mathb33]

I've done bloods on 1,4 and epiandro. Had elevated enzymes. I've read lot's of topics on forums from users who did the same and found out they had elevated enzymes as well. Imo this is common knowledge. It was thought that andro's don't elevate enzymes but then in practice that wasnt the case. Just bc something isnt methylated or alkylated dosesnt mean it doesn't strain the liver. Not saying you'll damage your liver, but you are straining it.

Gotta agree with you here. One of the few times I actually pissed brown dark was on Andros. My liver values were in the same range with my bloods on dmz. Nothing dramatic but still fairly out of range for what’s sold all around the world as something so smooth and basically harmless.

 

[Hyde]

Don’t take anything unless you plan to be on TRT at some point. Cycling will weaken your natural hormone production over time so you will probably have low testosterone sooner in life than if you stayed natty.

So knowing that you will eventually be on testosterone for the rest of your life some day way down the line, consider that injecting 400-500mg testosterone per week could be a much more potent and effective first cycle, for much less money. 2 bottles of testosterone Enanthate, a bottle of Exemestane and a bottle of Tamoxifen and you will be ready to rock.

 

[Mathb33]

Don’t take anything unless you plan to be on TRT at some point. Cycling will weaken your natural hormone production over time so you will probably have low testosterone sooner in life than if you stayed natty.

So knowing that you will eventually be on testosterone for the rest of your life some day way down the line, consider that injecting 400-500mg testosterone per week could be a much more potent and effective first cycle, for much less money. 2 bottles of testosterone Enanthate, a bottle of Exemestane and a bottle of Tamoxifen and you will be ready to rock.

That’s really the only true advice and the only thing we should tell anyone who asks about cycling steroids.

 

[Renew1]

Ok.

I think there is no reason why one would spend 300 bucks or more for a low kicking andro cycle (that you have no idea how and if it will work) where he can spend 150 for a properly potent var and dbol cycle. Or tbol and dbol. Or var and topical estrogen. Or tbol, estrogen and hcg. Etc. I have both at hand and it works out just great. Why would the andro cycle be safer? Yeah, he is a beginner, so what. How many beginners have done normal oral only cycles and have lived to tell the tale? They are all dead, bevare, everybody come to AM where pro's will steer you in the right direction, the only true bodybuilding supps there are: Andro's! I don't see andro's being recommended over aas on any sensible board or by any industry professionals that aren't reps or afiliated in any sort of way with supp companies (or board frends with reps).

I've read no sensible arguments on this topic. Just trolling, semi attacks and rep propaganda. This topic is out of hand. Hope to find ya'll a nother day when we'll be able to have a more sensible conversation. And this is precisely the reason why op is confused btw.

I hope you get some sleep soon bro, because your attitude is SH**.

 

[Mathb33]

I hope you get some sleep soon bro, because your attitude is SH**.

That’s what happens when you PCT too much

 

[Jinsun]

I hope you get some sleep soon bro, because your attitude is SH**.

Okay, still here. Yeah, I was awake the whole night. So it's funny you said that. Maybe I am a bit harsh ... I'm irritable but the inconsistencies here are making it reall hard to play nice. Don't want to be a dick to anybody, I do wish you all - all the best.

 

[Renew1]

Okay, still here. Yeah, I was awake the whole night. So it's funny you said that. Maybe I am a bit harsh ... I'm irritable but the inconsistencies here are making it reall hard to play nice. Don't want to be a dick to anybody, I do wish you all - all the best.

Thanks brother.
I really do hope you get some sleep.
I've been there.

 

[brofessorx]

Don't let this discourage you OP. He is just trolling.

I was trolling with the Ed question.
but with that info you posted I stopped to get get serious because it was so ridiculous.
It reminded me of the days when ph talk was allowed on bb dot com

 

[brofessorx]

I've done bloods on 1,4 and epiandro. Had elevated enzymes. I've read lot's of topics on forums from users who did the same and found out they had elevated enzymes as well. Imo this is common knowledge. It was thought that andro's don't elevate enzymes but then in practice that wasnt the case. Just bc something isnt methylated or alkylated dosesnt mean it doesn't strain the liver. Not saying you'll damage your liver, but you are straining it.

No, dhea isomers will have no effect on Liver enzymes. None. Your liver/body has zero trouble converting these compounds to inactive metabolites to flush out the body.

if 4-dhea/4-androstenedione/4-androstenediol/testosterone cause elevated enzymes, you would get this from injecting testosterone.

All of the andro’s pre cursors to testosterone, are also metabolites of testosterone metabolism.
dht, also a metabolite of testosterone metabolism.
no one objects dht though because it converted into an inactive metabolites so quickly, that’s why masteron was created. Chemists added a methyl group on the 2 position to prevent 3hsd enzymes from quickly de activating it.

same goes for 1-dhea/1-androstenedione/1-androstenediol/1-testosterone. (Please stop calling it dihydroxyboldenone, I know it makes you feel knowledgeable, but c’mon...)

1-testosterone has some oral bioavailability, so that means, the liver will have some trouble breaking it down, and could possibly increase enzymes in order to do so. To what degree is user dependent but it’s Probably not significant. But this is going to (possibly) happen whether you inject 1-test cyp (burnnnnn) use nano 1-test liquid, or take one of the metabolites of 1-test, like 1-dhea. But you don’t hear of users complaining from liver toxicity of 1-test now, do you.
Lastly, I don’t currently rep for anyone, I’ve repped for cel/sns though for a long time, since the mdrol days, and after they had no fight in the ph game any longer.
I’ve also worked In research and development for a number of companies that sell/sold ph/ds.

 

[brofessorx]

I remember back in the days of the androstenediol it was common to say “ don’t use pro hormones, they have more sides than the target hormone, so just inject (test, mast, 1-test, deca, etc) but nobody stopped to think, why would the target hormone not have sides, but the ph does?
the confusion cane from users not knowing the difference in chemical make up of compounds, as well as mixing up oral steroids with pro hormones.
m1t was not a pro hormone. Which most people on this forum now know. But at the time, it was labeled, sold, and discussed as such.

if anything, actual pro hormones will have less sides than their injectable 3 ketone version as most don’t have the $$$$$ to reach levels one can easily achieve by injecting.

 

[Whisky]

Ok.

I think there is no reason why one would spend 300 bucks or more for a low kicking andro cycle (that you have no idea how and if it will work) where he can spend 150 for a properly potent var and dbol cycle. Or tbol and dbol. Or var and topical estrogen. Or tbol, estrogen and hcg. Etc. I have both at hand and it works out just great. Why would the andro cycle be safer? Yeah, he is a beginner, so what. How many beginners have done normal oral only cycles and have lived to tell the tale? They are all dead, bevare, everybody come to AM where pro's will steer you in the right direction, the only true bodybuilding supps there are: Andro's! I don't see andro's being recommended over aas on any sensible board or by any industry professionals that aren't reps or afiliated in any sort of way with supp companies (or board frends with reps).

I've read no sensible arguments on this topic. Just trolling, semi attacks and rep propaganda. This topic is out of hand. Hope to find ya'll a nother day when we'll be able to have a more sensible conversation. And this is precisely the reason why op is confused btw.

bro did you even read my first post - I literally say that pinning test would be the safest and best option.......how is that not recommending aas over ph’s?

not everyone wants/can pin which is fair enough (I know you suggest oral/topical compounds) but not everyone is comfortable sourcing dbol /var/tbol etc.

ph’s can be brought (legally in the uk for example) over the counter or from reputable companies. For many (I assume including the OP) that’s an easier toe in the water than trying to source legit aas which aren’t legal in most places in the Western Hemisphere.

the dude asked some questions about 1-andro. He’s been given some detailed answers. Your opinion is of course legitimate and it’s fair enough you let him know your view but please don’t start suggesting the rest of us are wrong or trolling because we don’t agree with you - I logged my first andro cycle on here, all details and pics. It worked well for me, If it didn’t for you that’s a shame but that’s life bud.

 

[thebigt]

bro did you even read my first post - I literally say that pinning test would be the safest and best option.......how is that not recommending aas over ph’s?

not everyone wants/can pin which is fair enough (I know you suggest oral/topical compounds) but not everyone is comfortable sourcing dbol /var/tbol etc.

ph’s can be brought (legally in the uk for example) over the counter or from reputable companies. For many (I assume including the OP) that’s an easier toe in the water than trying to source legit aas which aren’t legal in most places in the Western Hemisphere.

the dude asked some questions about 1-andro. He’s been given some detailed answers. Your opinion is of course legitimate and it’s fair enough you let him know your view but please don’t start suggesting the rest of us are wrong or trolling because we don’t agree with you - I logged my first andro cycle on here, all details and pics. It worked well for me, If it didn’t for you that’s a shame but that’s life bud.

because of the ease of acquiring i think some people forget that aas are illegal.

 

[hercules_22]

I've run 1 andro, epi andro, 4 andro, rad, osta, s23, trest, and some gw with sr 9009. At different combinations and mixed cycles and have only used Otc PCT. Olympus labs super pct, blr rebirth, and mtest. Youve got to know you body. Never had problems with shut down or my balls shrinking permanently. This started 4 years ago when people on here stated sarms arent suppresive and andros werent suppresive. Unless the compounds have changed since then you "may" be okay.

 

[Renew1]

I've run 1 andro, epi andro, 4 andro, rad, osta, s23, trest, and some gw with sr 9009. At different combinations and mixed cycles and have only used Otc PCT. Olympus labs super pct, blr rebirth, and mtest. Youve got to know you body. Never had problems with shut down or my balls shrinking permanently. This started 4 years ago when people on here stated sarms arent suppresive and andros werent suppresive. Unless the compounds have changed since then you "may" be okay.

... And if not .... That's cool.

 

[Whisky]

I've run 1 andro, epi andro, 4 andro, rad, osta, s23, trest, and some gw with sr 9009. At different combinations and mixed cycles and have only used Otc PCT. Olympus labs super pct, blr rebirth, and mtest. Youve got to know you body. Never had problems with shut down or my balls shrinking permanently. This started 4 years ago when people on here stated sarms arent suppresive and andros werent suppresive. Unless the compounds have changed since then you "may" be okay.

out of interest how do your bloods compare from pre cycling to now?