3 AD Dht inhibitor
- Thread starter DGS
- Start date
well it will make certain things less effective, which are not involved with muscle growth... but it'll keep your hair on!JBerto
Active member
No.
5ar inhibitors (finasteride, procerin,...) works blocking testosterone to be converted to DHT, so that 5ar inhibitors only works with testosterone related compounds.
3-AD, Superdrol, Furaz,... are DHT related (are already 5a-reduced), so finasteride don't interact with that kind of compounds.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
The compounds in 3-AD are 5-alpha reduced.
5-AR Inhibitors, as Jberto has mentioned, lower the amount of testosterone which converts to DHT. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean higher test levels, but rather higher estrogen levels (on top of the increased conversions associated with HPTA supression).
5-AR Inhibitors, as Jberto has mentioned, lower the amount of testosterone which converts to DHT. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean higher test levels, but rather higher estrogen levels (on top of the increased conversions associated with HPTA supression).
KDLMaj
Member
That's actually incorrect- dutasteride (dual 5-AR inhibitor) increases serum testosterone levels by between 20-30%, depending on the person. That's whether your'e taking .5mg a day or 2.5mg a day- so even low doses cause significant test increases. It does also, however, mean est Estrogen increases as well since DHT and estrogen are sort of in competition for certain receptors. There's been no evidence that I've seen, however, that the increase is significant enough to cause any noticeable changes. It's also possible that the rise in estrogen helps protect against the hair loss commonly seen in anabolic steroid use (though the jury is still REALLY out on this one- so don't count on it). Otherwise, dutasteride/finasteride/etc's normal DHT inhibition isn't actually likely to help you with hair loss due to anabolic steroid use unfortunately.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
You are right, but let's not blow this out of proportion. I don't want readers in this thread to hear about the increases in test and suddenly think finasteride or dutasteride are gonna get the "ripped", as I'm sure you'll agree, this is certainly not the case.
Invalid Link Removed
I'm seeing 17.9% for dutasteride, which is close to the 20% you've stated (I doubt the research methods are so accurate to be to 3 significant figures, anyhow). But that was for a 1-year study. Since increases in estrogen will impede testosterone production, I would have to believe that this is a time dependent variable and not a stagnant number.
18% is a mean difference from baseline over the mean difference from baseline of the placebo group. Since test levels fluctuate greatly throughout the day, this number although statistically significant versus placebo, doesn't strike me as being so significant once we factor in an error margin for determining test levels.
Anyhow, I pulled up that link to see if I could find anything in more detail about its estrogenic effects. I know for a fact gynecomastia is real side effect from finasteride, although dutasteride is a much milder drug.
My concern is that the addition of these drugs would appear more likely to increase estrogenic side effects than to decrease hairloss. The first 3 side effects they have listed on your 5-AR inhibitor drugs are (1) decreased sexual drive (2) decreased semen volume (3) breast enlargement and/or tenderness.
matthias7
Well-known member
Dutasteride of course will increase free test... BUT at the expense of DHT. Thats not good - only if you want to stop a thinning hairline. I think for thinning hairlines it is better to use topical solutions.
DHT is often seen as the 'active' form of test. Clearly it depends what you want it for. Medically dutasteride is used to stop prostrate enlargement.
There is a 5-alpha inhibitor in mushrooms which is why I presume MassFX have 'white button mushroom' extract in their forumula. What I can say is MassFX does not decrease libido at all (and could have the exact opposite effect).
5-alpha reductase inhibitors do have 'serious' contraindications allegedly including libido, depression etc... Certainly you'd need serious prostrate problems before I'd consider it.
It will of course increase free-test which can of course increase muscle... heck of price.
DHT is often seen as the 'active' form of test. Clearly it depends what you want it for. Medically dutasteride is used to stop prostrate enlargement.
There is a 5-alpha inhibitor in mushrooms which is why I presume MassFX have 'white button mushroom' extract in their forumula. What I can say is MassFX does not decrease libido at all (and could have the exact opposite effect).
5-alpha reductase inhibitors do have 'serious' contraindications allegedly including libido, depression etc... Certainly you'd need serious prostrate problems before I'd consider it.
It will of course increase free-test which can of course increase muscle... heck of price.
KDLMaj
Member
It's probably worth noting here that while these are all legitimate side-effects of the different medications in question, the actual rate of moderate to severe side effects is incredibly low with both medications- more so for finasteride than dutasteride. And most side effects vanish after continued use.
The one thing that still remains on the table however, is what the long term effects are of having virtually not DHT in your system. Glaxo very abruptly stopped clinical trials in Phase III for Avodart and hair loss (though it looks like things may have picked up again), and there was some evidence that one of the primary reasons was that the FDA wanted more research done on precisely this issue. Unlike finasteride, which could get rid of about 70% of DHT, dutasteride was getting rid of 95%+.
That's the one legitimate risk factor out there right now. Just the unknown. And the half life of dutasteride is about 5 weeks. So it's working in your system months after you've stopped.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Yes, production has already stopped, but it will be a while before the inventory goes away.
In terms of stackability and usage, it's certainly a great product.
Generally, people stop doing things when their efforts no longer justify the outcome of whatever it is they're doing. In the case of 3-AD, it takes a lot of work to make it, and it just hasn't been selling all that well.
The average prohormone user still seems to be going for a clone of either superdrol, halodrol, or pheraplex. For a legal non-methyl, in my opinion, 3-AD holds its own. We can use the lacking alkylation as an edge, but all in all, I don't think the average prohormone user knows enough of what he's putting into his body to perceive a difference. The forums are only a small piece of the prohormones market pie.
That being said, if you want to try 3-AD, get it while you still can.
sublimejeh
Well-known member
dutasteride is crazy, ive read up on so many sides of that stuff
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
I think "chopping down the wood" is a bit self-explanatory.
I never quite understood why they taught us that testosterone was the primary male hormone. A lot of the masculine attributions of testosterone come from DHT. Classic example: libido. Test isn't lipophilic enough to cross the blood brain barrier, so we have to depend on DHT to take over for the mental and behavioral effects of testosterone.
thebigt
Legend
wait a minute, are you saying that 3-ad will increase estrogen by dual pathways? btw-a little off topic since you are talking about lowering dht, but what are good supps for raising dht? wish i could find a version of 3-ad that is not 5-alpha reduced.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
No, I'm saying that drugs like finasteride are going to increase estrogen and not do anything to to 3-AD.
To increase DHT, 6-oxo and MassFX would be a great combo.
IIRC, you're a huge formestane fan. Unfortunately form and 4-OH-test are 5-alpha reductase inhibitors (although quite mild). Perhaps try trione instead.
also, products containing androsterone will do this independently of 5-alpha-reductase enzyme (3-AD is one). I'm bolding the name because you've gotta be careful with the nomenclature on these guys.
thebigt
Legend
thanks, i was thinking about trying 3-ad for the purpose of increasing dht before i read this thread. so if i understand correctly, i will get the benifits of increased dht on 3-ad even with it being 5-alpha reduced? btw-td form/trione combo is too good. a bottle of cels td form with 2 gms of trione added is about as good as it gets.
glockgod
New member
After reading and reading about how alpha alkylation affects the liver, 3AD was the clear choice for me. I have to say that forums and the net have helped me gain enough knowledge to understand that something like 3AD is safe enough.
That said after reading this tread is clear that there is plenty of more to learn and understand.
Thank you to all who have posted and taken the time to teach us.
glockgod
New member
Here is why...AX didn't want to make it on to this list, so they got out of the game before that letter from the FDA came
SIDEBAR: as I posted in the other thread about this, with a 25% loss in federal revenue, 10% unemployment rate, unsecured borders, Mexican drug cartels moving north into the U.S., 2 wars, the worst economic crisis in our generation.....
it amazes me that these losers have the audacity to waste tax payers money going after "supplements" ....
Sinec i don't have 50 posts yet I can't link..so google: CNN FDA WARNS
to get your story...
joeflex73
Board Sponsor
I think that's part of the reason for any company who gets "put of the game".
I agree. There are a lot better things that our gov't can be spending their time on. Big pharma gets what big pharma wants however. Gotta love lobbyists~
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Not if that health reform bill passes.
There's some obscure riders on that bill.
At first, I thought they were set to cause it not to pass, but then I read some were recommended by Mr. Obama himself, which has me puzzled and worried.
It kills me how much more pull Big Pharma has than the supplement industry: you'd thing we'd have way stronger lobbyists.
thebigt
Legend
Not if that health reform bill passes.
There's some obscure riders on that bill.
At first, I thought they were set to cause it not to pass, but then I read some were recommended by Mr. Obama himself, which has me puzzled and worried.
It kills me how much more pull Big Pharma has than the supplement industry: you'd thing we'd have way stronger lobbyists.
big pharma are united in a common cause, supp company's are more cut throat, imo.
jsp0785
Well-known member
so if u had high DHT levels wouldn't u have a higher libido then?
thebigt
Legend
mainly because it is a antagonist to prolactin.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Yes.
In earlier times, baldness was a sign of vertility and libido.
....not so much anymore. Oh how the times have changed.
joeflex73
Board Sponsor
jsp0785
Well-known member
look at it the other way. u have legit companys making tons of money of steroids by finding loopholes and creating new compounds to stay one step ahead. is the product technically illegal? no it's not but they sure as hell know it's going to be at some point. which also comes down to a lot of ignorant people either A) not knowing what the compound is or B) people thinking u need roids to get big. personally i had no idea about any of these forums or anything a few years back and i ended up running M1T without and PCT at 21 years old. good thing i missed doses and didn't take it everyday because it was the liquid stuff from VPX and burned ur throat like crazy or i would have been screwed. I just thought all the advertising was overblown crop like u see on any product.
jsp0785
Well-known member
i guess i'm confused now then. so why do people get older and lose hair because of DHT build up they also lose their libido? i mean the 2 things probably don't go hand in hand. i'm having both of those issues and i'm only 27 and been trying to figure out what it could be.
thebigt
Legend
it's all in the genetic's bro.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
If a DHT molecule is destroying hair folicles, it can't activate receptors that control libido - can't be two places at once, can it?
It's not just that DHT builds up, but where it builds up that makes a difference.
matthias7
Well-known member
I dunno but if you look at the versatility of DHEA or pregnenolone they seem to get everywhere and do everything, e.g. you find 'high' levels of preg. in the CNS then it is not surprising that DHT seems to be everywhere.
Thinning - I presume its a cumulative effect because without treatment its not reversible. DHT levels should drop alot with age.
Thinning - I presume its a cumulative effect because without treatment its not reversible. DHT levels should drop alot with age.
joeflex73
Board Sponsor
It's not that it's not versatile too, I think what he's trying to say is, DHT bound in the scalp won't be able to do other things. Doesn't mean it's all concentrated there.
Besides, DHT levels are not the only determining factor in hair loss.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Yes.
Your hormones diffuse throughout the body. It's not evenly distributed, but it's alway trying to get there. If I mark a DHT molecule - we'll call it "Timmy". If Timmy, the DHT molecule, is attacking a receptor along your scalp, Timmy cannot be found in your big toe. You can't be too places at once.
matthias7
Well-known member
True I think the idea is that if there are loads of Timmy's then it can be everywhere and do everything - libido, hair etc... so increasing the overall amount must have an affect across the body.
Of course localized effects would be exaggerated if the overall concerntration increases. These are impossible/very difficult experiments to do in a lab BTW on human subjects.
Of course localized effects would be exaggerated if the overall concerntration increases. These are impossible/very difficult experiments to do in a lab BTW on human subjects.
matthias7
Well-known member
Yeah DHT would be a great supplement. It would be fantastic for two groups:
1. Those with loads of hair to spare and don't mind a bit of thinning - I'm in that one
2. Those that don't have any hair. These guys could just get loaded on DHT.
Dunno if there are any feedback loops associated with it, but its absolutely at the end of the pathway so it might not have.
In fact we can all wear wigs and just blow out on DHT! Not much muscle building will take place but the nootropic effect would be :wizard:
1. Those with loads of hair to spare and don't mind a bit of thinning - I'm in that one
2. Those that don't have any hair. These guys could just get loaded on DHT.
Dunno if there are any feedback loops associated with it, but its absolutely at the end of the pathway so it might not have.
In fact we can all wear wigs and just blow out on DHT! Not much muscle building will take place but the nootropic effect would be :wizard:
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Not quite.
This is AT LEAST a second order reaction. As DHT increases, hairloss is no longer limited by DHT concentration, but rather by the reactions necessary to form it.