tenntarheel
New member
Can you just give us a rundown of what supplements are working for you?? It isn't for us to copy your protocol or anything bc everyone is indeed different. But it can help us learn and give us food for thought.
25 Year old UK guy, low testosterone / adrenal dysfunction?
- Thread starter qwerty42
- Start date
The Matrix
Well-known member
I work with people from all over the world as well as many on here and other health forums. Due to forum rules I told them not to tell who they are working with and give only the main parts. This is not to hide anything from any one, but to protect people from killing them selves. Dealing with hormones is nothing compared to correcting neurological and enzymatic pathways. I get 1-2 calls a week where people are suicidal because of just the OTC supplements which were recommended. Simple the wrong combination of a few over the counter supplementation in the wrong environment could be not a good scenario. He has gotten the proper testing which is now opening doors to why TRT is not working as many others are finding out, but just are not saying much. To give you a good analogy. Its like giving a child a match and a stick of TNT. This is nothing to be fooled with unless you know what you are doing. Currently he is not on any supplements at this time, but soon will working to balance out his detoxification system, neurotransmitters, and other genetic road blocks ..
tenntarheel
New member
I understand not wanting people to hurt themselves but I don't see anything wrong with divulging such info. We are all here to learn. It doesn't have to be a mystery.
acidvoodoo
New member
Proper testing? In addition to this thread?
qwerty42
New member
As an update-
I've had the Metametrix GI Effects stool test done and no real problems were found there; no chronic infections etc I do have some malabsorption of fats.
I've had hair tissue mineral analysis and no real levels of toxic metals have been found.
I've also had Lyme testing done that was negative. Can't really ever remember a rash or tick bite anyway.
I've had up to date endocrine bloods done and they look OK. Testosterone still on the low side but everything else fine.
Blood test 11/01/12
SHBG 23 nmol/l (13 - 71)
LH 7.60 iu/L
FSH 7.50 iu/L (No range given)
Total Testosterone 14.4 nmol/l (8.50 - 29.0)
FT4 15 pmol/l (8 - 21pmol/l)
FT3 4.8pmol/l (2.50 - 6.50pmol/l)
TSH 1.80 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)
Oestradiol 20pmol/l (<80 in men)
AM cortisol 670nmol/l (0-700)
Reverse T3 0.36 pmol/ mL (0.15 - 0.54 - ideal less than 0.48)
Sample1: 22.4 nmol/l (12-22) 97.0F 60BPM
Sample2: 4.6 nmol/l (5-9) 98.2F 74 BPM
Sample3: 6.9 nmol/l (3-7) 97.9F 68BPM (Had 30 minute nap immediately after this sample)
Sample4: 2.3 nmol/l (1-3) 98.1F 80 BPM
DHEA Mean: 0.75 nmol/l (0.40 - 1.47)
DHEA : Cortisol Ratio: 2.07 (2-6)
Total daily cortisol 36.2 (21-41 nmol/l)
Notably my thyroid is fine, the RT3 has come down, which makes me wonder why I'm still experiencing low body temperature in addition to the rest of my symptoms.
Current symptoms are:
* Low mood. This is not been a problem for the whole of the 18 months really but now starting to get tearful randomly and think pretty dark thoughts. Wouldn't self harm but also feeling like I wouldn't be too bothered if I didn't wake up.
* Agonizingly dry & photophobic right eye -specifically the right one, left seems ok.
* Fatigue throughout the day and brain fog / difficulty concentrating. No exercise capacity.
* Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.
* Still no libido at all. Not even an inkling. No random erections, sporadic weak morning wood. Flaccid size is markedly reduced to the tune of less than half the usual size. Testicles also half the size they were before symptoms began 18 months ago.
I've just had my 23andme results back and will be going over them with Matrix. I'm really hoping that they can shed some light on things as I'm not sure there is much else left to test for. With a bit of luck my SNP wills reveal something glaringly obvious that is likely to be wrong with my methylation cycle and can be corrected.
My complete lack of libido despite a relatively normal testosterone level is making me think it is a neurotransmitter issue, with them possibly not being made properly due to dysfunctional methylation. I appreciate it is not an ideal level of testosterone but people do get by with that level I couldn't have less libido if I tried!
Symptoms have progressed to the point where I'm now off work, so in a way I'm glad theres not much left to test for.
Don't really want to approach GP with the low mood as they're likely to try and pin all of the physical symptoms on it- even though I've had the other symptoms for 18 + months and I'm only starting to really struggle psychologically now.
To discover once and for all whether it is the low normal testosterone causing symptoms (I doubt it now) I started last week on self prescribed Test Cyp 40mg x 2 per week injecting sub-q. So far nothing but I will be getting my Testosterone level checked in a couple of weeks - I honestly imagine it is going to come back fairly high though.
Its not a matter of secrecy - I just don't understand enough about it to be able to tell you what is what!
I have come to realize that it is more complicated than just giving B12 and Folate, but this isn't a bad thing to read in terms of understanding the methylation cycle can cause quite a few problems - (Can't post links so search: Dr Sarah Myhill Methylation Cycle)
I can tell you that one of the 23andme results I do understand is that I have the MTHFR enzyme deficiency and as a result folic acid is pretty bad for me - body struggles to convert. I'm off all supplementation completely as of 10 days ago but had been taking 400mcg in my multi and 400mcg in my B-complex.
I've been gluten, caffeine and alcohol free for 8 months now and I can tell you that doesn't seemed to have helped. From my reading I don't think gluten is particularly great for anyone though and I don't miss it that much. Diet is just vegetables, fruit, meat and some seafood really. I have organic butter but not milk. I also use coconut oil liberally to cook with.
Hope this answers some questions. I think an important realization is that my thyroid numbers are fine and my adrenals are OK yet I still have low / fluctuating body temperature. Something is going wrong with energy production at the cellular level I believe and that is where methylation and the Krebs cycle come into play, I believe.
I've spent the last 18 months learning about hormones and I've always had an interest in diet and nutrition following the likes of Alan Aragon and Lyle Mcdonald, but the epigenetics is a whole new ball game, way over my head and I'm looking forward to having Matrix guide me on it.
Hope this helps some people.
I've had the Metametrix GI Effects stool test done and no real problems were found there; no chronic infections etc I do have some malabsorption of fats.
I've had hair tissue mineral analysis and no real levels of toxic metals have been found.
I've also had Lyme testing done that was negative. Can't really ever remember a rash or tick bite anyway.
I've had up to date endocrine bloods done and they look OK. Testosterone still on the low side but everything else fine.
Blood test 11/01/12
SHBG 23 nmol/l (13 - 71)
LH 7.60 iu/L
FSH 7.50 iu/L (No range given)
Total Testosterone 14.4 nmol/l (8.50 - 29.0)
FT4 15 pmol/l (8 - 21pmol/l)
FT3 4.8pmol/l (2.50 - 6.50pmol/l)
TSH 1.80 mu/L (0.4 - 4.5)
Oestradiol 20pmol/l (<80 in men)
AM cortisol 670nmol/l (0-700)
Reverse T3 0.36 pmol/ mL (0.15 - 0.54 - ideal less than 0.48)
Sample1: 22.4 nmol/l (12-22) 97.0F 60BPM
Sample2: 4.6 nmol/l (5-9) 98.2F 74 BPM
Sample3: 6.9 nmol/l (3-7) 97.9F 68BPM (Had 30 minute nap immediately after this sample)
Sample4: 2.3 nmol/l (1-3) 98.1F 80 BPM
DHEA Mean: 0.75 nmol/l (0.40 - 1.47)
DHEA : Cortisol Ratio: 2.07 (2-6)
Total daily cortisol 36.2 (21-41 nmol/l)
Notably my thyroid is fine, the RT3 has come down, which makes me wonder why I'm still experiencing low body temperature in addition to the rest of my symptoms.
Current symptoms are:
* Low mood. This is not been a problem for the whole of the 18 months really but now starting to get tearful randomly and think pretty dark thoughts. Wouldn't self harm but also feeling like I wouldn't be too bothered if I didn't wake up.
* Agonizingly dry & photophobic right eye -specifically the right one, left seems ok.
* Fatigue throughout the day and brain fog / difficulty concentrating. No exercise capacity.
* Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.
* Still no libido at all. Not even an inkling. No random erections, sporadic weak morning wood. Flaccid size is markedly reduced to the tune of less than half the usual size. Testicles also half the size they were before symptoms began 18 months ago.
I've just had my 23andme results back and will be going over them with Matrix. I'm really hoping that they can shed some light on things as I'm not sure there is much else left to test for. With a bit of luck my SNP wills reveal something glaringly obvious that is likely to be wrong with my methylation cycle and can be corrected.
My complete lack of libido despite a relatively normal testosterone level is making me think it is a neurotransmitter issue, with them possibly not being made properly due to dysfunctional methylation. I appreciate it is not an ideal level of testosterone but people do get by with that level I couldn't have less libido if I tried!
Symptoms have progressed to the point where I'm now off work, so in a way I'm glad theres not much left to test for.
Don't really want to approach GP with the low mood as they're likely to try and pin all of the physical symptoms on it- even though I've had the other symptoms for 18 + months and I'm only starting to really struggle psychologically now.
To discover once and for all whether it is the low normal testosterone causing symptoms (I doubt it now) I started last week on self prescribed Test Cyp 40mg x 2 per week injecting sub-q. So far nothing but I will be getting my Testosterone level checked in a couple of weeks - I honestly imagine it is going to come back fairly high though.
Its not a matter of secrecy - I just don't understand enough about it to be able to tell you what is what!
I have come to realize that it is more complicated than just giving B12 and Folate, but this isn't a bad thing to read in terms of understanding the methylation cycle can cause quite a few problems - (Can't post links so search: Dr Sarah Myhill Methylation Cycle)
I can tell you that one of the 23andme results I do understand is that I have the MTHFR enzyme deficiency and as a result folic acid is pretty bad for me - body struggles to convert. I'm off all supplementation completely as of 10 days ago but had been taking 400mcg in my multi and 400mcg in my B-complex.
I've been gluten, caffeine and alcohol free for 8 months now and I can tell you that doesn't seemed to have helped. From my reading I don't think gluten is particularly great for anyone though and I don't miss it that much. Diet is just vegetables, fruit, meat and some seafood really. I have organic butter but not milk. I also use coconut oil liberally to cook with.
Hope this answers some questions. I think an important realization is that my thyroid numbers are fine and my adrenals are OK yet I still have low / fluctuating body temperature. Something is going wrong with energy production at the cellular level I believe and that is where methylation and the Krebs cycle come into play, I believe.
I've spent the last 18 months learning about hormones and I've always had an interest in diet and nutrition following the likes of Alan Aragon and Lyle Mcdonald, but the epigenetics is a whole new ball game, way over my head and I'm looking forward to having Matrix guide me on it.
Hope this helps some people.
qwerty42
New member
Thanks for the input - I'm having my consultation tomorrow though so will being going off suggestions thoroughly. Will try and keep this thread more up to date. I would say, from what I now understand, I think I'd have been better off doing some of the testing the other way round. They're expensive tests and in hindsight should have done
1st. 23andme
2nd. NutrEval
3rd. Gi Effects
1st. 23andme
2nd. NutrEval
3rd. Gi Effects
The Matrix
Well-known member
Again in a wrong situation these recommendation can cause major issues. So these recommendations are actually can be counter productive in his case. People have good intentions, but until knowing the what the testing results one find out why certain things have not been working in the past.
Ad Fortitudo
New member
Yeah man..... it just depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.
This thread has been pretty comprehensive (let's be honest...he's going so far as genetic testing through 23andMe).
That said, in addition to the above there's still more you can test like food sensitivities, gluten cross reactivity, infectious diseases, autoimmunity,etc.
Ad Fortitudo
New member
I don't know if it's available where you're at, but there might be some other things you can look at.
A relatively new company has started to do testing for gut permiability, gluten sensitivity (more comprehensive than just Transglutaminase and deamidated gliadin.... they're testing for IgA and IgG responses to other parts of the wheat kernel), gluten cross reactivity, and autoimmune testing related to gluten sensitivity.
Google: Cyrex Labs
tenntarheel
New member
Have you been checked for MAIS??
Mr.TT
Member
Sinus congestion during the night. Wake up 3-30 -4 AM every night completely congested and incredibly thirsty. Pint of water eases the congestion.
I'm really stuck on this one. CONGESTION?(mucus) or ANGIOEDEMA(nasal swelling)? Water is a fast cure?
I have no personal, common, experiences..... how can water cure anything? (I'm thinking out loud here)
Do you have PROGESTERONE levels? IgE?
I'm really stuck on this one. CONGESTION?(mucus) or ANGIOEDEMA(nasal swelling)? Water is a fast cure?
I have no personal, common, experiences..... how can water cure anything? (I'm thinking out loud here)
Do you have PROGESTERONE levels? IgE?
The Matrix
Well-known member
His issues is outside hormones as many younger guys are. Low testosterone is just an expression alterations in genetic imbalances..
tenntarheel
New member
Yeah, but MAIS is definitely a more severe type of hormone imbalance that can cause all types of issues that vary greatly from one person to another. It was just a thought but now that I think of it, I think they typically have HIGH Test and LH, not low test with higher LH. Oh well
acidvoodoo
New member
are the bulk of your blood tests still through the NHS? do you consult an Endo or a GP? how do you get around them just saying everything is "in range" yet you still feel like crap. i'm the same age as you and my last blooddraw was 11.4nmol, docs of course dont want to help. Tried to start my own thread but it said it needed approval, how many posts do you need to start a thread? anyone know?
qwerty42
New member
Thanks for the suggestion. In terms of gluten sensitivity, I've had two basic tests one from Genova FACT and the Metametrix GI Effects show no real problems with gluten. Having said that I have cut out gluten anyway for the last 8 months, very strictly, but can't really report any improvements.
I would say, and I don't know whether this is related to a low metabolism or low dopamine instead of food choices, but since I switched to this way of eating strictly with no gluten, I don't crave any foods anymore. I remember back when I used to eat cereals, breads etc I would crave them horrendously. Not particularly relevant but interestingly never the less.
acidvoodoo - my endocrine bloods have mostly been through the NHS, although each Dr will generally only check hormone levels once every 6 months - hence some are from an endo, some are from my initial GP and I just changed GP to get the latest ones. It is a farce the hoops we have to jump through.
It might be worthwhile you ringing your Primary Care Trust to find out if there is a needle exchange with steroid clinic in your area. They should check your Testosterone levels for free and Liver function tests and they only take your initials and phone you with the results. Doesn't go on file and your GP doesn't find out. I'm NW based and am going to travel to Manchester to get it done.
If you've read my thread you'll understand my contempt for the NHS as a whole. If you want to try and get treatment however, then you should print out the UK Guidelines for Management of Androgen Deficiency in Men which state that a Testosterone level between 8-12 nmol/l WITH symptoms of low testosterone can be considered for a 6 month trial of TRT.
However - at your age I'd do some more reading of the forum and look for reasons you may be low. There are countless and my thread documents a lot of them. TRT at our age is, short of structural endocrine failure, not the best idea IMO.
As far as I know you should be able to start your own thread - hope this helps.
I would say, and I don't know whether this is related to a low metabolism or low dopamine instead of food choices, but since I switched to this way of eating strictly with no gluten, I don't crave any foods anymore. I remember back when I used to eat cereals, breads etc I would crave them horrendously. Not particularly relevant but interestingly never the less.
acidvoodoo - my endocrine bloods have mostly been through the NHS, although each Dr will generally only check hormone levels once every 6 months - hence some are from an endo, some are from my initial GP and I just changed GP to get the latest ones. It is a farce the hoops we have to jump through.
It might be worthwhile you ringing your Primary Care Trust to find out if there is a needle exchange with steroid clinic in your area. They should check your Testosterone levels for free and Liver function tests and they only take your initials and phone you with the results. Doesn't go on file and your GP doesn't find out. I'm NW based and am going to travel to Manchester to get it done.
If you've read my thread you'll understand my contempt for the NHS as a whole. If you want to try and get treatment however, then you should print out the UK Guidelines for Management of Androgen Deficiency in Men which state that a Testosterone level between 8-12 nmol/l WITH symptoms of low testosterone can be considered for a 6 month trial of TRT.
However - at your age I'd do some more reading of the forum and look for reasons you may be low. There are countless and my thread documents a lot of them. TRT at our age is, short of structural endocrine failure, not the best idea IMO.
As far as I know you should be able to start your own thread - hope this helps.
qwerty42
New member
Sorry hadn't seen this Mr TT.
Its no mucus but swelling instead. With a post nasal drip as well. Water does help it and it actually hasn't been as pronounced the last 3-4 nights.
(The changes I've made in the last 10 days include dropping all supplementation and starting Test - Cyp )
acidvoodoo
New member
Yes I deffo do not want trt. Like you I'm trying to get to the root of it. First I'm looking at adrenals and awaiting an ultra sound. Thenn I think ill have to explore thyroid and liver function.
My current gp was like a temp, and thus why he was willing to give me the extensive tests as it wasn't his practice so he didn't care about the precious budget. So you think its reasonable to request refferal to an endo based on my 11.4 reading. Even if the endo does nothing but allow Mr to track my levels like you have, while working out the root cause.
Will try and get my own thread up
My current gp was like a temp, and thus why he was willing to give me the extensive tests as it wasn't his practice so he didn't care about the precious budget. So you think its reasonable to request refferal to an endo based on my 11.4 reading. Even if the endo does nothing but allow Mr to track my levels like you have, while working out the root cause.
Will try and get my own thread up
acidvoodoo
New member
There is one in my area that at least seems to have some published work on hypogonadism, and looks like he wrote an article saying measures of less then 11 need further investigation. Any idea if the NHS let's you request a specific consultant? Going to see a diabetes endo seems pointless imo
Mr.TT
Member
If you take an antihistamine at bedtime would you not wake up with this swelling??
Your cortisol levels are near their upper limits during the day. This can tax your adenal glands, and deplete your progesterone levels and
DHEA. At night cortisol normally drops to almost nothing anyway, but if you are depleting your prehormones to cortisol, your levels may
be getting really super low. Next, you may be having HISTAMINE problems. During the day your high cortisol is suppressing the symptoms,
but at night, when your cortisol is naturally low, the uncleared histamine causes swelling.
After you test the nighttime OTC antihistame, if it works, 500mg of vitamin C, before bed, may solve your problem.
I use liposomal vitamin C for this same problem. HISTAME also helps.
acidvoodoo
New member
Qwerty, can I ask how you performed the blood tests with Geneva. Like how u drew blood and sent the samples. Also how did u get around it asking for practitioner id, could u pm me this if possible, I'm just thinking ahead to the future
qwerty42
New member
If its for the NutrEval you will need to go and have it drawn in Harley St so it can be centrifuged etc.
I personally have a close friend who is consultant and he simply registered with Genova for me and also drew the blood which I then posted. (Genova send you the vacutainer / needle etc)
I'd either ask your GP to register or you can order quite a few of the Genova tests through Smart Nutrition (google it I can't post links)
I personally have a close friend who is consultant and he simply registered with Genova for me and also drew the blood which I then posted. (Genova send you the vacutainer / needle etc)
I'd either ask your GP to register or you can order quite a few of the Genova tests through Smart Nutrition (google it I can't post links)
qwerty42
New member
To update my own situation:
I've had my 23andme genetic results gone over and its clear I've got a few problems with methylation.
Major ones being being an MTHFR mutation a CBS mutation and COMT mutation. I'm now on a low sulfur diet (cut out onions, garlic, cruciferous veg, dairy) and been on a new supplement package for the last 5 days. No changes as of yet but its early days.
I'll be having my Testosterone levels checked next Monday, at which point I'll have been on Test Cyp x 2 per week for just over 3 1/2 weeks.
Still no libido to report or any improvement in symptoms. Have got to imagine its going to come back high and confirm low T is not the real cause of my symptoms.
I've had my 23andme genetic results gone over and its clear I've got a few problems with methylation.
Major ones being being an MTHFR mutation a CBS mutation and COMT mutation. I'm now on a low sulfur diet (cut out onions, garlic, cruciferous veg, dairy) and been on a new supplement package for the last 5 days. No changes as of yet but its early days.
I'll be having my Testosterone levels checked next Monday, at which point I'll have been on Test Cyp x 2 per week for just over 3 1/2 weeks.
Still no libido to report or any improvement in symptoms. Have got to imagine its going to come back high and confirm low T is not the real cause of my symptoms.
The Matrix
Well-known member
Excellent information and it is the future of medicine ...
Matthersby
Well-known member
Hey subbin in here for some good info. 2 quick questions, and excuse my ignorance if they were discussed in the last 13 pages. Why were you avoiding caffeine along with gluten and alcohol? I have done the same but am a caffeine junkie. And have you researched methyl folic acid?
qwerty42
New member
Yeah - the presentation there talks about 5MTHF methylfolate (note- note methyl folic acid, no such thing). That is one supplement which I have started.
Avoided caffeine as I was getting crashes after drinking it. Ostensibly I did it as its not supposed to be great for adrenals. I'd imagine if / when I get things sorted I will have black coffee in moderate quantities again as I enjoy it.
Alcohol for similar reasons and because its obviously another toxin for your body to process. When your body is struggling to methylate it is also not detoxify properly as I understand it. I'd also found that, and having never had problems with it in the past, since I've been ill the morning after drinking alcohol I would have pronounced anxiety / agitation. Strangely though I would have a hint of libido, which would otherwise never be present. I believe this is to do with problems with dopamine - possibly not breaking it down quickly enough once made, but conversely not making enough day to day to have normal mood / libido.
Again I'm hoping that once methylation is working properly I can go back to enjoying some drinks.
Gluten - I cut it out on Matrix's suggestion. I've since had two tests show no real problem with gluten sensitivity but have decided to keep it out as since I cut out bread / cereal/ pasta I've noticed I never crave foods and I don't think its an essential food to keep in when I eat plenty of veg/ fruit / meat /seafood.
I don't subscribe to the view that its the devil - I'm sure many people can get away with it fine, but I'm not sure how great it is for the gut overall. I used to eat a lot of it as carbohydrate around training / matches when I was fit but if / when I'm better I don't think I'll go back to eating it. Will get my carbs through potatos / s potatos / fruit in the main and save it for the odd treat like pizza or what have you.
Avoided caffeine as I was getting crashes after drinking it. Ostensibly I did it as its not supposed to be great for adrenals. I'd imagine if / when I get things sorted I will have black coffee in moderate quantities again as I enjoy it.
Alcohol for similar reasons and because its obviously another toxin for your body to process. When your body is struggling to methylate it is also not detoxify properly as I understand it. I'd also found that, and having never had problems with it in the past, since I've been ill the morning after drinking alcohol I would have pronounced anxiety / agitation. Strangely though I would have a hint of libido, which would otherwise never be present. I believe this is to do with problems with dopamine - possibly not breaking it down quickly enough once made, but conversely not making enough day to day to have normal mood / libido.
Again I'm hoping that once methylation is working properly I can go back to enjoying some drinks.
Gluten - I cut it out on Matrix's suggestion. I've since had two tests show no real problem with gluten sensitivity but have decided to keep it out as since I cut out bread / cereal/ pasta I've noticed I never crave foods and I don't think its an essential food to keep in when I eat plenty of veg/ fruit / meat /seafood.
I don't subscribe to the view that its the devil - I'm sure many people can get away with it fine, but I'm not sure how great it is for the gut overall. I used to eat a lot of it as carbohydrate around training / matches when I was fit but if / when I'm better I don't think I'll go back to eating it. Will get my carbs through potatos / s potatos / fruit in the main and save it for the odd treat like pizza or what have you.
Matthersby
Well-known member
qwerty42 said:
Outstanding... 5MTHF has become of serious interest to me. Forgive me for dumbing the name down, you clearly know your stuff. I've been told this supplement can take up to two months to really take effect. And the caffeine issue should have been a no brainer as it aggravates adrenal fatigue. I am going through a lot of similar things right now as well. I definently have a gluten intolerance though, previously drank heavily, and have hyperthyroidism. My endocrine system is so messed up I had a test level of 214 and 3 weeks later 608. Keep us posted on things. Good luck.
Edit: Mucuna Pruriens is a very versatile bean and has personally helped me with mood, libido, anxiety, and sexual stamina. The stuff is cheap and very effective. Don't know how much you already know of it but there is a lot of info here and online. Never seen any side effects at 500 mg to several grams daily.
qwerty42
New member
Quite alright - I am definitely no expert, just learning myself out of necessity!
Yeah I don't think it would be a quick fix with it - if methylation hasn't been working for a while then you may even get worse first as I understand it.
I think it would be important to test first and find out where you are at.
Interesting that you mentioned Muccuna Pruriens - I think it is a precursor to dopamine so would make sense that it helps you. The problem with me is I think my production of dopamine is not working, so whether supplementing precursors would help or not is possibly questionable.
If you're not working with a natural practitioner then I would recommend Matrix. He may have his detractors but I believe he knows his stuff and hes been great with me.Time will tell with my situation I guess.
Yeah I don't think it would be a quick fix with it - if methylation hasn't been working for a while then you may even get worse first as I understand it.
I think it would be important to test first and find out where you are at.
Interesting that you mentioned Muccuna Pruriens - I think it is a precursor to dopamine so would make sense that it helps you. The problem with me is I think my production of dopamine is not working, so whether supplementing precursors would help or not is possibly questionable.
If you're not working with a natural practitioner then I would recommend Matrix. He may have his detractors but I believe he knows his stuff and hes been great with me.Time will tell with my situation I guess.
The Matrix
Well-known member
I no longer make any recommendations with out genetic testing. By taking this approach it will reduce cost over worthless and possible toxic choices of supplements. The common response I see when people start taking meds, or supplements drs recommend they work for a while then stop. Since taking this approach the medical professionals I have been working with are seeing a significant change in their patients which have been to Dr to Dr for many years. Again this is not the magic bullet for every one, but it does give a better insight to the more challenging cases I deal with from Dr's. People with lyme, this has been a God sent because its allowing people who have been blasted with antibiotics still with no resolution. Now diets can be developed and supplements which may personalize to help you then to harm you. Good example would be people recommending NaC 600 mgs. Not knowing anything about the persons biochemistry. In this persons biochemistry it could have been a disaster potential causing neurological problems .Unless a person knows what they are doing leave this to a expert in the field. So many people end up doing more damage then good trying to self dedicate with OTC supplements.
acidvoodoo
New member
genetic testing like 23andme?
qwerty how much did it cost you to get this done in the UK
qwerty how much did it cost you to get this done in the UK
qwerty42
New member
Had some new labs back which tend to support problems with my methylation and b-vitamin usage, namely sky high serum B12 and over range Folate (Not entirely sure HOW high folate is as the lab doesn't measure past 20. My iron also seems to be creeping up again after last giving blood to get it down in April. Matrix can correct me if wrong but I believe this is because the body doesn't deal well with build up of iron when methylation isn't working.
Serum B12: 1940 ng/L (211 - 911)
Serum folate: >20 ug/L (4.6 - 18.7)
Ferritin 95 ug/L (30-330)
Serum TIBC 52 umol/L (40-70)
Serum iron level 30 (10-30)
Saturation iron binding capacity 58%
Serum B12: 1940 ng/L (211 - 911)
Serum folate: >20 ug/L (4.6 - 18.7)
Ferritin 95 ug/L (30-330)
Serum TIBC 52 umol/L (40-70)
Serum iron level 30 (10-30)
Saturation iron binding capacity 58%
The Matrix
Well-known member
serum b-12 and folates are worthless when supplementing. It does not show a true indication. Methylation not working right will cause a build up of not just iron, but also copper and other metals and toxins as well. Follow the info on ATM from Desert Eagle about phlebs and HRT..As usual people tend to miss the most crucial things, but run around like chicken with out a head wondering why they are having issues.
The Matrix
Well-known member
kateean2 said:
Depends on.whose Interpreting them. majority of.times its black or white. Most of cases are.in the gray ..
qwerty42
New member
Getting my T level results at the end of the week. I'll have been injected 50mg x 2 per week sub q and so far not feeling any different.
Had quite an interesting chat with a really helpful guy at the clinic doing the bloods - it was a steroid harm reduction clinic that do free bloods, so he tests upwards of 50 guys a week.
He said that hes got a couple of natty high level bodybuilders who come to get levels done out interest and they test around 12nmol (350 US) and they don't report any symptoms of low T, libido is fine etc and they carry a fair amount of mass.
He also said that on average he doesn't see that many people above 20 - 21.
Admittedly the majority of people attending have at some point used AAS so may not be a good reflection but he doesn't use and said hes tested himself multiple times when hes had odd symptoms, such as reduced libido and his T has always been a consistent 14-15 (406 - 450) and he feels fine the majority of the time.
Just thought it was quite good food for thought - chasing the golden 700 - 800 may well not be the magic bullet for a lot of guys.
Had quite an interesting chat with a really helpful guy at the clinic doing the bloods - it was a steroid harm reduction clinic that do free bloods, so he tests upwards of 50 guys a week.
He said that hes got a couple of natty high level bodybuilders who come to get levels done out interest and they test around 12nmol (350 US) and they don't report any symptoms of low T, libido is fine etc and they carry a fair amount of mass.
He also said that on average he doesn't see that many people above 20 - 21.
Admittedly the majority of people attending have at some point used AAS so may not be a good reflection but he doesn't use and said hes tested himself multiple times when hes had odd symptoms, such as reduced libido and his T has always been a consistent 14-15 (406 - 450) and he feels fine the majority of the time.
Just thought it was quite good food for thought - chasing the golden 700 - 800 may well not be the magic bullet for a lot of guys.
acidvoodoo
New member
Qwerty is this the manchester exchange . Did you have the right post code. Can you pm me your experience of using the clinic and how you got an appointment, if it cost, weekday only. This may be a usefull resource if I trial Clomid next year, just to like yous see if higher test levels are the magic bullet to feeling good or not
The Matrix
Well-known member
I keep telling people this. Guys are chasing numbers. I have some monsters I train with TT of 400-450, but their GH, cortisol, thyroid are very healthy. Which can make a huge difference when the other systems are compensating for each other. Its not about testosterone its about balancing out the person bio-individuality.
qwerty42
New member
No real positive changes to report as of yet. Still feeling awful.
I'm wondering if a main problem for me really is low noepinepherine. Two of the markers for its urinary metabolites 3methyl-4-OHphenylglycol and vanillyl mandelic acid are both low on my nutreval and only just in range in comparison to the serotonin and dopamine ones which seem at good levels.
Low mood, no libido, low energy, difficulty concentrating, low body temperature in the prescence of goodl thyroid / adrenals, temperature that drops following exercise, mild hypotension on rising from a chair quickly, and sinus congestion could quite neatly fit under low NE symptoms could they not?
And just further to that I'm additionally thinking low NE over low dopamine due to the fact my prolactin is always in range and low - middle.
I'm wondering if a main problem for me really is low noepinepherine. Two of the markers for its urinary metabolites 3methyl-4-OHphenylglycol and vanillyl mandelic acid are both low on my nutreval and only just in range in comparison to the serotonin and dopamine ones which seem at good levels.
Low mood, no libido, low energy, difficulty concentrating, low body temperature in the prescence of goodl thyroid / adrenals, temperature that drops following exercise, mild hypotension on rising from a chair quickly, and sinus congestion could quite neatly fit under low NE symptoms could they not?
And just further to that I'm additionally thinking low NE over low dopamine due to the fact my prolactin is always in range and low - middle.
The Matrix
Well-known member
People are so focused on thyroid for thermogenisis in the body. It's only one of the multiple mechanism which can stimulate increased temperatures. If you do not correct methylation your neurotransmitters will not work properly. Why a lot of people end up on drugs which do not have to be.
qwerty42
New member
Update:
Got my T level results back over the phone from the clinic. Pretty confusing. Testosterone is only at 16 (464) after 3.5 weeks at injecting 50mg x 2 per week. Estrogen has risen but still in range 94 (28 - 156)
My LH and FSH have dropped but are still detectable and my nuts have shrunk further so I think it is genuine T.
Obviously I don't feel any different so I'm wondering whats happening.
a) underdosed? should I increase to 75mg x 2
b) body chewing through Testosterone and using it up quickly?
c)???
The other part of me is thinking that I should just get off it and run a PCT as we think its unlikely T is the cause of my problems with a baseline of 417.
Got my T level results back over the phone from the clinic. Pretty confusing. Testosterone is only at 16 (464) after 3.5 weeks at injecting 50mg x 2 per week. Estrogen has risen but still in range 94 (28 - 156)
My LH and FSH have dropped but are still detectable and my nuts have shrunk further so I think it is genuine T.
Obviously I don't feel any different so I'm wondering whats happening.
a) underdosed? should I increase to 75mg x 2
b) body chewing through Testosterone and using it up quickly?
c)???
The other part of me is thinking that I should just get off it and run a PCT as we think its unlikely T is the cause of my problems with a baseline of 417.
The Matrix
Well-known member
Examine SHBG and you are chewing through it like crazy.
Dr patients working with are on 30 mgs x 2 times a week trough at 600. Some thing is not right.
qwerty42
New member
Testosterone bumped to 62.5mg x 2 per week for a few weeks.
If no change in how I'm feeling then going to look to transition off as its pretty clear low T is not the primary cause of my symptoms.
Have HCG, Clomid, Torem and DAA if / when it comes to that.
Am also mindful that last month prior to starting TRT my Estrogen was 20pmol/l (28 - 156) and 4 weeks into TRT it is 94pmol/l so have added 0.5mg Arimidex x 2 per week while I am still using the Test.
If no change in how I'm feeling then going to look to transition off as its pretty clear low T is not the primary cause of my symptoms.
Have HCG, Clomid, Torem and DAA if / when it comes to that.
Am also mindful that last month prior to starting TRT my Estrogen was 20pmol/l (28 - 156) and 4 weeks into TRT it is 94pmol/l so have added 0.5mg Arimidex x 2 per week while I am still using the Test.
qwerty42
New member
Ok so as an update.
Felt no benefits from the Testosterone and had my levels re-checked, they were at 23.5 or 680. Libido was unchanged. (See the bottom of the post for a little study I performed)
Transitioned off it onto HCG 1500iu EOD + 1mg Arimidex for the last couple of weeks along with TOCO 8 (Vit E supp) & Dopa Mucuna (15% L-Dopa)
Finished the HCG and in the first week of DAA and Torem which I'm running at 3g and 120/90/60/30 respectively. Adex dropped to 1/2mg Mon / Thurs.
Testicle size doesn't seem to have grown much - maybe a little. Have felt some hints of libido when on the HCG.
Symptoms remain pretty much unchanged with eyes being the most pressing. Physical energy is not as bad as it was but mental acuity is terrible compared to what it was - memory especially poor and 'brain fog' quite apparent.
Last week I saw an opthamologist regarding my photophobic / dry eyes / floaters and he suggested a diagnosis of blepharitis but couldn't suggesta cause. He has suggested bathing them morning and night which I am trying. Doesn't seem like a particularly accurate diagnosis however..
I have also had the results of two more tests back - urinary heavy metals and leaky gut testing.
My gut is ok and the heavy metal I was suspecting - lead (in a way hoping - by way of an answer) is within the reference range.
The only toxic elements outside the reference range are:
Thallium: 0.468 (<=0.273)
Gadolinium 0.027 (<=0.019)
Cesium 10.89 (<=10.10)
Rubidium 2,674 (<= 2,486)
I'm not sure how pressing they are or if they could even affect my symptoms.
My sulfur levels are now consistently down to around 400 mg/L and I have been following the methylation protocol as laid out. No positive changes to report so far really.
I have continued to try and add 120 - 130 bpm cardio in on a stationary bike, sometimes with a sweatsuit, and don't feel any worse for doing it. In fact quite the opposite, I feel better after doing it and don't seem to encounter any delayed fatigue as a result.
I would also note that over the Xmas period I spent more time with friends and, having not drank for 8 months, allowed myself several drinks on one or two nights. I felt much better during - sharper, more like my old self and didn't suffer any ill effects other than the usual foggy head in the morning - I definitely noticed libido upon waking. The rest of my symptoms were no better or worse for having a few drinks.
I definitely think that a dopamine / noepineiphrine problem has something to do with my symptoms.
------------------
Un-related but interesting study:
A few of my close friends who have seen how much I've been struggling and know a lot of the ins and outs of it decided to get their T levels checked with me. It has definitely re-inforced one and for all that people shouldn't wholly chase numbers when it comes to Testosterone.
Its obviously not scientific but we all had blood drawn at roughly the same time in the AM and had all been to bed at a normal time the night before with no alcohol consumed. None of them have used AAS before and none of them have had T levels checked. We are all mid twenties.
Friend 1: Rugby player - heavily muscled, not that lean but very strong , drinks a fair bit. Single but gets through a lot of women - self reported libido is very high. T level - 16 (464)
Friend 2: Non - exerciser and pretty weak in general, average build, verging on overweight, in a long term relationship. Libido is so - so but no problems. Very confident demeanour. T level - 23 (667)
Friend 3: Gym goer - lean and fit with a good amount of muscle. Eats well etc Reported libido very high and have shared a flat with him so can attest to this. T level - 12 (350)
Obviously non of the above is scientific and I am relying on their reported information but I thought it was interesting neverthless.
Felt no benefits from the Testosterone and had my levels re-checked, they were at 23.5 or 680. Libido was unchanged. (See the bottom of the post for a little study I performed)
Transitioned off it onto HCG 1500iu EOD + 1mg Arimidex for the last couple of weeks along with TOCO 8 (Vit E supp) & Dopa Mucuna (15% L-Dopa)
Finished the HCG and in the first week of DAA and Torem which I'm running at 3g and 120/90/60/30 respectively. Adex dropped to 1/2mg Mon / Thurs.
Testicle size doesn't seem to have grown much - maybe a little. Have felt some hints of libido when on the HCG.
Symptoms remain pretty much unchanged with eyes being the most pressing. Physical energy is not as bad as it was but mental acuity is terrible compared to what it was - memory especially poor and 'brain fog' quite apparent.
Last week I saw an opthamologist regarding my photophobic / dry eyes / floaters and he suggested a diagnosis of blepharitis but couldn't suggesta cause. He has suggested bathing them morning and night which I am trying. Doesn't seem like a particularly accurate diagnosis however..
I have also had the results of two more tests back - urinary heavy metals and leaky gut testing.
My gut is ok and the heavy metal I was suspecting - lead (in a way hoping - by way of an answer) is within the reference range.
The only toxic elements outside the reference range are:
Thallium: 0.468 (<=0.273)
Gadolinium 0.027 (<=0.019)
Cesium 10.89 (<=10.10)
Rubidium 2,674 (<= 2,486)
I'm not sure how pressing they are or if they could even affect my symptoms.
My sulfur levels are now consistently down to around 400 mg/L and I have been following the methylation protocol as laid out. No positive changes to report so far really.
I have continued to try and add 120 - 130 bpm cardio in on a stationary bike, sometimes with a sweatsuit, and don't feel any worse for doing it. In fact quite the opposite, I feel better after doing it and don't seem to encounter any delayed fatigue as a result.
I would also note that over the Xmas period I spent more time with friends and, having not drank for 8 months, allowed myself several drinks on one or two nights. I felt much better during - sharper, more like my old self and didn't suffer any ill effects other than the usual foggy head in the morning - I definitely noticed libido upon waking. The rest of my symptoms were no better or worse for having a few drinks.
I definitely think that a dopamine / noepineiphrine problem has something to do with my symptoms.
------------------
Un-related but interesting study:
A few of my close friends who have seen how much I've been struggling and know a lot of the ins and outs of it decided to get their T levels checked with me. It has definitely re-inforced one and for all that people shouldn't wholly chase numbers when it comes to Testosterone.
Its obviously not scientific but we all had blood drawn at roughly the same time in the AM and had all been to bed at a normal time the night before with no alcohol consumed. None of them have used AAS before and none of them have had T levels checked. We are all mid twenties.
Friend 1: Rugby player - heavily muscled, not that lean but very strong , drinks a fair bit. Single but gets through a lot of women - self reported libido is very high. T level - 16 (464)
Friend 2: Non - exerciser and pretty weak in general, average build, verging on overweight, in a long term relationship. Libido is so - so but no problems. Very confident demeanour. T level - 23 (667)
Friend 3: Gym goer - lean and fit with a good amount of muscle. Eats well etc Reported libido very high and have shared a flat with him so can attest to this. T level - 12 (350)
Obviously non of the above is scientific and I am relying on their reported information but I thought it was interesting neverthless.
The Matrix
Well-known member
There may be a way just to.neurotransmitter from.neuroscience done. One of colleagues showed me a may to be able us the system. Sounds to.me kavinace may be the a big help since alcohol boost ups gaba which would.help.to offset the.norephinpherine. Methylation is a huge piece of the puzzle but typically people.need neurotransmiter support to.get the synergistic.effect.