21s for huge growth or just a pump?
- Thread starter hugry4more
- Start date
VS91588
Active member
Rodja said:
I never said that but in terms that 21s are for "wussys" I will devalue that opinion since he provided no educated reason other than sounding like an average joe on the forums with bro-science. My argument issssss we should always try out new exercises and there isn't anything wrong with doing 21s once and a while just to switch things up from normal traditional sets. Tate is obviously all about strength and conditioning and not much on bodybuilding and believe me I do stick to basic movements such as barbell curls, bench press, shoulder press, dead lifts and squats because the basic movements work. But it does not hurt to throw in different movements once and a while
Rodja
Board Sponsor
You insulted Tate and defended Arnold. How is that not what you said and you really need to stop talking about Tate since you obviously have no clue about him. In fact, you really should just stop posting altogether and spend more time learning.
VS91588
Active member
Rodja said:
Whatever you believe in is fine with you. We are 2 different ppl who obviously believe in 2 different training styles. I respect your opinion so how about you respect mine. Are you mad because I dont agree with you or something? And are you really mad because I thought Tates post was not educated for a man of his stature? Are you a close personal friend of his that you arguing for about 2 days with me now? What is he in relation to you? I said nothing wrong other than you should not neglect exercises because it's good to change things up. Do you comprehend what I am saying? I don't have to train the way you do and you don't have to train the way I do. I'm concerned about my body and how I look and competing in NPC bodybuilding shows. I'm 5'8" 230lbs and I have nothing to prove to you or any1. I'm not a powerlifter I bodybuild and yes I have much respect for those guys but that's not my game.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
You're avoiding again. You made a statement regarding the pump and have nothing to back up that claim. Meanwhile, you got all butthurt over a piece that was obviously tongue in cheek and insulted someone that I have great respect for and I have learned a great deal from in the past. I honestly could care less about your opinion as many of your posts are wrong (e.g. test injected with a slin pin will not be absorbed) and you've shown that you are not credible. Kinda ironic that you threw out the meathead label at Tate, yet you exhibit many of the classic traits of someone that most would classify as a "meathead."
VS91588
Active member
Dude I injected Test with a short needle and I got a bump for like a week. I would never try to use a slin pin.. Obviously the oil is going to be inside you but I would never inject with that short of a needle... And I would have to say if we look at that forum post majority agreed with me when it comes to size
kingk0ng
Active member
21's are effective mainly because of the TUT (time under tension). You can increase overload through increased TUT (tempo change), increase in intensity, volume, decrease in the rest between sets. 21's allow you to focus more on the TUT, which can be a great tool for hypertrophy enhancement but at the same time will give you a huge pump. I like to use them as a tool, but never a staple.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
SubQ injections are used by many HRT doctors and has peer-reviewed data to support its use. I'd say that carries a bit more weight than the average forum "bro" and you have many people, such as yourself, that follow what has been repeated as gospel without any real reasoning behind it.
kingk0ng
Active member
I've been reading a little bit on this back and forth and I was a little confused until I saw his avatar, if he's from that Animal Pak forum, which is probably where he got his avatar from, there's no use in even arguing with him. They all think a pump should be the prime focus of everyones training and still think that "high reps tone".
NYiron
Member
Rodja, your devaluing your own education here, in these post you are coming off as conceited, condescending and closed minded. If you re-read Zir's post it actually does not argue against "pump" or "dooshe bag" training as some of you have most affectionately deemed it (laughs) but rather places a small warning label per say. The only negative side his post states is that the net fluid reabsorption intramuscularly, is decreased and this may have an effect on recovery. Acute inflammation of skeletal muscle, as a result of resistance training, is the basis of the super compensation effect and has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis.
"In this case, muscular contractions cause a local increase in cytokines, activating inflammation. Think of cytokines as local chemical messengers – they're signaling proteins that help with intercellular communication, such as Interleukin 6 (IL-6) increasing muscle glucose uptake and the use of fats as fuel. They also activate a local inflammatory response, kicking off a cascade of events associated with muscle growth and repair. Along with local growth factor release in response to mechanical tension, infiltrating immune cells play a direct role in satellite cell activation by locally releasing the cytokine TNFα (Meadows & Willis, 2011)."
Build up of metabolic waste products, as stated in Zir's post is also not a detrimental process, when it is acute, and has been shown to hold various ergogenic effects including but not limited to increased protein synthesis.
"In the early 2000s, it was conclusively shown that lactate has little detrimental effect on mechanically skinned fibres activated by artificial stimulation. Perhaps more remarkably, there are now several reports of protective effects of lactate exposure or induced acidosis on potassium-depressed muscle contractions in isolated rodent muscles. In addition, sodium-lactate exposure can attenuate severe fatigue in rat muscle stimulated in situ, and sodium lactate ingestion can increase time to exhaustion during sprinting in humans. Taken together, these latest findings have led to the idea that lactate/H[SUP]+[/SUP] is ergogenic during exercise (Cairns, 2006)."
Overall the aforementioned negative effect associated with "pump" training if properly hydrated will be negligible. This negative would be due to the occlusion time, but during resistance training this would be less than significant. Metabolic effect training, like 21's is just another means of unlocking growth potential outside of myofibril adaptation. Increasing skeletal muscle energy demands and forcing blood intramuscular, will result in sarcoplasmic expansion, increased glycogen storage and consequently intramuscular water storage equating to size, this coupled with myofibril stimulation rounds out the bodybuilding effect has and will continue to produce physiques worth of the term "art". Also in the post by Zir it states that the pump is limited to interstitial effect, but how could that be when diffusion down the pressure gradient, irrefutable physics, exists. Interstitial pressure will have no choice but to diffuse into the surrounding cells bringing with it nutrients and anabolic signaling agents. Lastly your post states that the blood needs to be removed from the gastrointestinal system to facilitate the "pump" but, this occurs regardless of what type of exercise you are engaged in, the body has higher priorities during acute stress than digestion. "While you are exercising, blood is diverted from your gastrointestinal tract to your muscles and lungs, impeding digestion (Glass, 2011)." You have placed, as it seems, all of your faith in one person, David Tate, don't get me wrong he is brilliant and it shows. In doing so, it seems, in your posts in this thread that you have shut off various other types of exercise principals that will yield effects and are grounded in science. Now this is fine, you are a free individual, but do not go out of your way to bash others for different goals/methods. Especially those who may not be able to constitute their reasonings in science, IMO it makes you look bad and the company you represent. I just would expect an individual, like myself, with an eduction to have little more of an open mind. There is not but one form, one principal, one mind set that yields results and there are other goals out there other than your own.
Meadows, J., & Willis, B. (2011). Managing inflammation. TNATION, Retrieved from Invalid Link Removed
Cairns, S. P. (2006). Lactic acid and exercise performance: Culprit or friend. Adis; Sports Medicine, 36(4), Retrieved from Invalid Link Removed
Glass, Z. (2011). Digestion during exercise. Retrieved from Invalid Link Removed
Rodja
Board Sponsor
I did not bash anyone's opinion as I know what the theory and purpose of a 21 is. The term inflammation is far too broad to say that it is the trigger for protein synthesis and this actually leads into the whole DOMS debate, which is an entirely separate topic that I won't go into at this point. I didn't jump into the topic until Tate was bashed for something that was clearly meant to be humorous and not to be taken seriously. I take it a bit personal when someone attacks one of the most highly respected people in the industry and someone that I take to be a role model and mentor.
What I get sick and tired of is the "bro" mentality that repeats the same crap ad nauseum with little to no basis for it other than "that's what the pros do" or "that's what everyone says." When questioned, it always turns into a **** measuring contest where random, irrelevant stats are posted and nothing actually gets resolved. There are many methods to get to a goal and I think one of the worst culprits of endless dogma is BB'ing primarily due to Weider and their publications that have the same content repeatedly. At no point did VS provide anything providing evidence to support the notion that a pump is beneficial and, when prompted to do so, would change the subject and go off on a tangent.
What I get sick and tired of is the "bro" mentality that repeats the same crap ad nauseum with little to no basis for it other than "that's what the pros do" or "that's what everyone says." When questioned, it always turns into a **** measuring contest where random, irrelevant stats are posted and nothing actually gets resolved. There are many methods to get to a goal and I think one of the worst culprits of endless dogma is BB'ing primarily due to Weider and their publications that have the same content repeatedly. At no point did VS provide anything providing evidence to support the notion that a pump is beneficial and, when prompted to do so, would change the subject and go off on a tangent.
NYiron
Member
I understand where you are coming from about the bro mentality and support you in your thinking. My interpretation of your posts was reflected in how I approached my post and if I was wrong in my assumptions of your standing, I do apologize. Although several of the disproving factors presented to VS were flawed. Inflammation is a broad definition, however not when referring to localized exercise induced skeletal muscle inflammatory processes. Yes, this will go into the DOMS debate and it is not worth it at this time as it will go on and on. Just as a closing if any of my interpretations, of your posts, were flawed again I do apologize. Hope for no hard feelings I just saw an attack and misinformation.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
No offense taken.
Gutterpump
Banned
what the hell are 21's anyway? lol
First time I've heard this term. I'm guessing 21 rep sets?
Tor, trust me I've read and received enough attitude from powerlifting/strength guys putting down people who don't focus on functional strength training. It's an elitist attitude I constantly come across. Step into a crossfit gym to get a quick understanding lol..
You're right about the 2nd part but nutrition rest etc are obvious. I was talking very generally about heavy vs volume. If you want max hypertrophy, you train with volume. Going heavy will give faster gains but will cause a plateau quickly. This is why I train 5/3/1 with periodization bible assistance. Best of both worlds.
First time I've heard this term. I'm guessing 21 rep sets?
Tor, trust me I've read and received enough attitude from powerlifting/strength guys putting down people who don't focus on functional strength training. It's an elitist attitude I constantly come across. Step into a crossfit gym to get a quick understanding lol..
You're right about the 2nd part but nutrition rest etc are obvious. I was talking very generally about heavy vs volume. If you want max hypertrophy, you train with volume. Going heavy will give faster gains but will cause a plateau quickly. This is why I train 5/3/1 with periodization bible assistance. Best of both worlds.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
It's a mentality that is shared by many in gyms all over America, not a way of addressing another person. It has nothing to do with geography; it's about to senseless, ignorant BS that the "bros" believe without any merit for doing so.
Gutterpump
Banned
Ahh never mind the question. It's 3 rounds of 7 in one set, 2 sets of half reps (lower half, top half then full range of motion).
I used to do these when I was bodybuilding, but not all the time. They seemed to have worked at the time. I also use to use a barbell or curl bar, pull my elbows back, then curl. These worked the best for me at the time I think. It wasn't full range of motion since my arms were never fully extended down, but the TUT was constant because of this. This method always blew my arms up.
I used to do these when I was bodybuilding, but not all the time. They seemed to have worked at the time. I also use to use a barbell or curl bar, pull my elbows back, then curl. These worked the best for me at the time I think. It wasn't full range of motion since my arms were never fully extended down, but the TUT was constant because of this. This method always blew my arms up.
VS91588
Active member
Rodja said:
I'm letting you know that the way I say "bro" is in no reference to a "gym mentality" lmao idk wtf a gym mentality would be (and I'm not looking for an answer so save your breath). It is how I and many ppl in Brooklyn NY address ppl. You obviously wouldn't know cause you are not from here (and I don't care if you came to visit 1 time either or any of your experiences with Brooklyn ppl). It's the same thing as in California ppl may say "Wuddup dude?" or in Chicago ppl say "Wuddup joe?" or how many black ppl say "Wuddup nigg*?" or how Australian ppl say "good day mate"..Yes it is a geographical thing because the way I speak or my NY accent is in no comparison to say a person in Boston or a person in middle America with a heavy southern accent. Take it however you like it I really don't care but I'm not gonna argue about the way I speak cause now this is getting a lil ridiculous. You are bored and just looking for arguments now.. I'm over it "dude" but I must admit this is now becoming very entertaining especially for a person of your stature and reputation on this forum site with 15k posts... If I had 15k posts Idk if I would even have time to train or work. Good for you though; you are the king of AnabolicMinds.com
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Whatever you say, bro...
Jim2542
Banned
VS91588 said:
I'm not sure if you can understand this but he wasnt referring to you saying bro he was referring to your misguided parroting of false info and broscience explanations for why you are right with no acceptance of the opinions of those with more experience than you as a "bro mentality"
VS91588
Active member
Jim2542 said:
For example using a slin pin for Testosterone injections? Slin pins are meant for water based/SubQ injections. Have a fun TIME drawing and injecting Test in you. Keyword "Time" as in you are gonna be there with a needle inside you for like 5 mins lol.. Anything is possible I'm sure but why the hell would you use a slin pin for Test? I used a small needle once and I had a nasty bump on my glute for a week. I used a longer needle and got deeper and I no longer have a problem. Just get yourself a 5/8 and inject in your delt if you scared of bigger sized needles... Ppl on that forum topic agred with me when it came to the size of the needle. No false info here my friend
Rodja
Board Sponsor
You need to quit talking out of your ass here. It does not take more than 15s to inject 1cc through a slin pin. As for the bolded section, Ad Populum. That is just a further example of the bro mentality that I was speaking about earlier in the thread.
This is completely false information coming from you.
VS91588
Active member
Rodja said:
Record that 15s of your injection and PM me for my email address. I'd love to see it for myself.. Like I said I used a short needle when i 1st started cycling once and I had a nasty bump. Once I used a longer needle I was perfectly fine. And I also just don't do Test. I stack either deca or tren so a slin pin would be too small for me anyways
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Care to address the other part or are you going to continue to selectively choose your replies to overlook your misinformation?
VS91588
Active member
Rodja said:
That it won't get obsorbed? Obviously it will cuz it ain't going to Mexico (so I will say that was misinformed a lil) . But I know that if I used a slin pin I'd get a huge bump. It's not deep enough. I would only use slin pins for water based subQ injections. That's what they are meant for
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Here's some reading for you (since you're out of touch with things):
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS
M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada
Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however, its physiological effects are unclear.
We therefore investigated the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy.
Patients and methods: Between May and September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism. Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks. Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration is not officially approved by Health Canada. T levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels were measured however; the week 12 data are still being collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l (p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1 (27.46+12.91 nmol/l).
Patients tolerated this therapy with no adverse effects.
Conclusions: A once-week SC injection of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further evaluation.
Quote:
Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.
Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: [email protected].
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.
METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study.
Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.
CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS
M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada
Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however, its physiological effects are unclear.
We therefore investigated the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy.
Patients and methods: Between May and September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism. Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks. Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration is not officially approved by Health Canada. T levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels were measured however; the week 12 data are still being collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l (p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1 (27.46+12.91 nmol/l).
Patients tolerated this therapy with no adverse effects.
Conclusions: A once-week SC injection of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further evaluation.
Quote:
Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.
Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: [email protected].
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.
METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study.
Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.
CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Then you missed the point, which isn't surprising.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
There's no getting through to you, is there, bro?
VS91588
Active member
Rodja said:
I guess not, bro. I don't have to agree with you do I? This is a democracy right? How about this. You stick to slin pins and I'll stick to my 23 and 25g needles. Aslong as I get my injections inside me and progress with my physique that's all that matters right? I think instated this about 5x in this forum topic that whatever works for you may not work for me and vice versa. Just keep lifting and eating... Good luck, dude
hugry4more
Active member
Oh my God! You little girls I don't wanna hear this crap anymore. Agree to disagree and,be done. Done I say. If there is one more post not having to do with 21s I'm closing this thread.
