2.5mg Letro / day not working??

AndrewBarnes

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I've been taking 2.5mg of letrozole every day for the past week and I still feel like my estrogen is high. I'm taking it because my estrogen levels are high but other AI's such as Aromasin and Arimidex only seemed to help a little. Before taking letro I took 25mg Aromasin and 1mg of Arimidex per day for a week and it did almost nothing. I went with the "nuclear" option of 2.5mg letro daily, which is the dose prescribed to breast cancer patients, and I feel like my estrogen levels still haven't completely tanked. I'm still experiencing sides of high estrogen such as water retention and gyno flair up. Usually libido is destroyed from crashing estrogen but mine has stayed the same and may have even increased because it feels similar to when I was taking Proviron (it may be caused by letro increasing DHT and free test significantly). Am I just immune to AI medication? I've read accounts of people taking 1 pill of Aromasin, 1 time and it completely wrecks them and their E2 levels, so it's very surprising how I'm able to take 1 full pill of letro for a week and be fine. I doubt my AI is fake because I purchased them from different sources in the past.
 
AndrewBarnes

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It turns out that if you are not on exogenous testosterone then this is completely NORMAL. Even massive amounts of AI will have very little effect on your E2 when natural. Pubertal boys are taking 2.5 mg of letrozole a day and "In contrast, serum estradiol concentrations remained at pretreatment level in the Lz-treated pubertal boys throughout the treatment period" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16189252/

If you are on exogenous testosterone then your bodies natural feedback loop is broken and even tiny amounts of AI will cause huge changes in E2.
 
AndrewBarnes

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This is most likely explained by aromatase activity in the testes which is high and aromatase inhibitors inhibit intratesticular aromatase activity much less: "Although aromatase inhibition by anastrozole and letrozole is reported to be close to 100%, administration of these inhibitors to men will not suppress plasma estradiol levels completely. In men third-generation aromatase inhibitors will decrease the mean plasma estradiol/testosterone ratio by 77% [28, 29]. This finding probably relates to the high plasma concentrations of testosterone, a major precursor for estradiol synthesis in adult men. As aromatase inhibition is dose dependent it has been suggested that aromatase is less suppressed in the testis compared to adipose and muscle tissue, explaining the incomplete efficacy of aromatase inhibition in men. Aromatase activity is high in the testes and the molar ratio of testosterone to letrozole is much higher in the testes compared with adipose and muscle tissue." https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7827-9-93

So if you are on exogenous testosterone then you have little to no intratesticular testosterone causing AIs to affect E2 levels in a wildly different manner.
 

Jeremyk1

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I have a couple questions. First, are you getting bloodwork? Going by feel is generally a terrible way to calculate hormone levels.

Also, what are you trying to accomplish? Maybe an AI isn’t the solution to your problem.
 
AndrewBarnes

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I have a couple questions. First, are you getting bloodwork? Going by feel is generally a terrible way to calculate hormone levels.

Also, what are you trying to accomplish? Maybe an AI isn’t the solution to your problem.
I have gotten bloodwork and my total test, free test, and estrogen are all double what they are normally. My estrogen was 58 pg/ml and it's causing me water retention and my gyno is flaring up. I recently discovered that natural males or guys that are off cycle can't crush their estrogen with AI. The reason for this is that most aromatization occurs in the testes and the AI is not nearly as effective there. However, on a cycle, testicular aromatization is suppressed/shut down and the aromatization occurs throughout the body, which makes AI much more potent on-cycle. I'm going to continue taking the letrozole because even tho it doesn't crush natural estrogen, it still lowers it eventually and it also increases DHT/Free Test significantly and I've been noticing that my water retention is slowly going away and I naturally look more "pumped" (probably from the increased Free Test)
 
Carnivorecon

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I have gotten bloodwork and my total test, free test, and estrogen are all double what they are normally. My estrogen was 58 pg/ml and it's causing me water retention and my gyno is flaring up. I recently discovered that natural males or guys that are off cycle can't crush their estrogen with AI. The reason for this is that most aromatization occurs in the testes and the AI is not nearly as effective there. However, on a cycle, testicular aromatization is suppressed/shut down and the aromatization occurs throughout the body, which makes AI much more potent on-cycle. I'm going to continue taking the letrozole because even tho it doesn't crush natural estrogen, it still lowers it eventually and it also increases DHT/Free Test significantly and I've been noticing that my water retention is slowly going away and I naturally look more "pumped" (probably from the increased Free Test)
I dont know myself but is there anything which binds with the oestrogen in your blood to make it inactive?
 
Smont

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It turns out that if you are not on exogenous testosterone then this is completely NORMAL. Even massive amounts of AI will have very little effect on your E2 when natural. Pubertal boys are taking 2.5 mg of letrozole a day and "In contrast, serum estradiol concentrations remained at pretreatment level in the Lz-treated pubertal boys throughout the treatment period" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16189252/

If you are on exogenous testosterone then your bodies natural feedback loop is broken and even tiny amounts of AI will cause huge changes in E2.
Regardless of that study I'm going to have to disagree. When I was in my 20s I used adex thinking at the time it was going to lower my estrogen to help me build more muscle, I crashed my estrogen and it was horrible.

Also not everyone looses that feedback loop on exogenous testosterone or steroids. That's why some ppl can take steroids and there testicles never shrink and they remain highly fertile. There's a **** ton more to it then the couple things I said but all I'm trying to get at is it's not that cut and dry. Don't read a study and dive head first into it thinking it has all the answers.
 
Smont

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Also just because your estrogen is it 58 does not mean it's the cause of your gyno. Your elevated estrogen normally causes your prolactin to rise and that could definitely be the reason. If my estrogen is over 100 but my prolactin is in range then no gyno symptoms. There's soooooo many variables. A lot of ppl get gyno because of the growth hormone pathway too. No1 ever thinks to look there and that's why some ppl can't stop the gyno, because there treating the wrong thing. Again I'm just drawing attention to all the possible reasons these things can happen. It's complicated stuff that I don't fully understand, **** most Dr don't fully understand it lol
 
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Also letro is by far the most unhealthy ai and it's a terrible idea using it long term
 
AndrewBarnes

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Regardless of that study I'm going to have to disagree. When I was in my 20s I used adex thinking at the time it was going to lower my estrogen to help me build more muscle, I crashed my estrogen and it was horrible.

Also not everyone looses that feedback loop on exogenous testosterone or steroids. That's why some ppl can take steroids and there testicles never shrink and they remain highly fertile. There's a **** ton more to it then the couple things I said but all I'm trying to get at is it's not that cut and dry. Don't read a study and dive head first into it thinking it has all the answers.
You're just stating anomalies. This study explains why my estrogen is not in the gutter while I've been on 2.5mg letro every day for around 2 weeks. Letro may not be healthy but it's working for me so I'll stick with it. My gyno is caused by excessive estrogen cause I took caber and it didn't do ****.
 
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You're just stating anomalies. This study explains why my estrogen is not in the gutter while I've been on 2.5mg letro every day for around 2 weeks. Letro may not be healthy but it's working for me so I'll stick with it. My gyno is caused by excessive estrogen cause I took caber and it didn't do ****.
It's not anomalies, it's fairly common. I have prolactin gyno caused by trestolone and caber and prami don't do much for me. Raloxefine is the only thing that seems to help. I was just stating various possibilities. Everything that you said very well might be right, I never said your wrong, I was just drawing attention to possibilities that may help you fix your gyno issue. Excessive ai use and caber/prami work for me as a preventative measure. But now that I have the gyno they no longer help me. But whenever I notice my gyno starting to act up, raloxefine is what helps me the most by a long shot
 
AndrewBarnes

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It's not anomalies, it's fairly common. I have prolactin gyno caused by trestolone and caber and prami don't do much for me. Raloxefine is the only thing that seems to help. I was just stating various possibilities. Everything that you said very well might be right, I never said your wrong, I was just drawing attention to possibilities that may help you fix your gyno issue. Excessive ai use and caber/prami work for me as a preventative measure. But now that I have the gyno they no longer help me. But whenever I notice my gyno starting to act up, raloxefine is what helps me the most by a long shot
I agree that there are various reasons for the occurrence of gyno but I was talking about AI crashing estrogen when hpta is working when I said anomalies because you brought up taking Adex to increase test and it crashed your E. Everyone is different in regards to when they experience low E sides but my point is that AI is more potent when hpta is shutdown (people on trt that don't experience hpta shutdown don't count since their hpta is still working). I've experienced low E before and it sucks but I can take huge doses of AI when my hpta is working and I would never get to the point where I feel bad low E sides and I feel that's the case for most people. All the stories online involving AI and crashed E are of people with shutdown hpta because the majority of men taking AI are using a substance that shuts down their hpta. The vast majority of natural men don't even know what an AI is, let alone take one.
 
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Smont

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I agree that with you that there are various reasons for the occurrence of gyno but I was talking about AI crashing estrogen when hpta is working l when I said anomalies because you brought up taking Adex to increase test and it crashed your E. Everyone is different in regards to when they experience low E sides but my point is that AI is more potent when hpta is shutdown (people on trt that don't experience hpta shutdown don't count since their hpta is still working). I've experienced low E before and it sucks but I can take huge doses of AI when my hpta is working and I would never get to the point where I feel bad low E sides and I feel that's the case for most people. All the stories online involving AI and crashed E are of people with shutdown hpta because the majority of men taking AI are using a substance that shuts down their hpta.
I might of missed it but is the gyno from puberty or anabolics. Also have you noticed any reduction in size from the letro or is it just taking that pain away.
 
AndrewBarnes

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I might of missed it but is the gyno from puberty or anabolics. Also have you noticed any reduction in size from the letro or is it just taking that pain away.
The gyno is from anabolics but the main reason I'm taking letro is due to my water retention because my gyno is not that bad and no one notices it besides me. I've been carrying 5-10 pounds of extra water on me for over a year and I'm tired of it. It makes me look terrible. Don't ask if it's from salt or my diet because I know for a fact it's from my high estrogen. The letro may help with the gyno as well but it's been over a year now so I doubt it (hopefully tho). I can't be on high dose letro long term so I decided today that I'll pin 150mg / week of Test-E to see if I can lower my estrogen to normal levels with a lower dose of letro. I may even be able to switch to another AI that's healthier but taking Aromasin or Adex when natural doesn't do anything besides lower my bank account. Letro 2.5mg is the only thing that works when my hpta is working. I never knew why I was able to take so much AI without it crashing my E until someone linked me to those studies. It's very rare someone talks about those studies and I feel they should be brought up way more. I posted on this forum and reddit in and everyone just assumes my problems aren't caused by estrogen due to me taking an AI already and they always give out the warning that estrogen will go to zero if you take AI, even tho I stated that I'm not experiencing low E symptoms at all.
 
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It turns out that if you are not on exogenous testosterone then this is completely NORMAL. Even massive amounts of AI will have very little effect on your E2 when natural. Pubertal boys are taking 2.5 mg of letrozole a day and "In contrast, serum estradiol concentrations remained at pretreatment level in the Lz-treated pubertal boys throughout the treatment period" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16189252/

If you are on exogenous testosterone then your bodies natural feedback loop is broken and even tiny amounts of AI will cause huge changes in E2.
While it is still possible to lower e2 too much when not on exogenous test, it is FAR harder than while pinning.

Taking Asin on its own when I am not on test yields more aggression and libido, definite increases in lh and fsh and therefore androgen concentrations.
 
LaserGoPewPew

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I've been taking 2.5mg of letrozole every day for the past week and I still feel like my estrogen is high. I'm taking it because my estrogen levels are high but other AI's such as Aromasin and Arimidex only seemed to help a little. Before taking letro I took 25mg Aromasin and 1mg of Arimidex per day for a week and it did almost nothing. I went with the "nuclear" option of 2.5mg letro daily, which is the dose prescribed to breast cancer patients, and I feel like my estrogen levels still haven't completely tanked. I'm still experiencing sides of high estrogen such as water retention and gyno flair up. Usually libido is destroyed from crashing estrogen but mine has stayed the same and may have even increased because it feels similar to when I was taking Proviron (it may be caused by letro increasing DHT and free test significantly). Am I just immune to AI medication? I've read accounts of people taking 1 pill of Aromasin, 1 time and it completely wrecks them and their E2 levels, so it's very surprising how I'm able to take 1 full pill of letro for a week and be fine. I doubt my AI is fake because I purchased them from different sources in the past.
How has proviron treated you on cycle? Why have you added that to this particular cycle?
 

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