191aa or 192aa?

hmm i have been reading a lot about how the 192aa can cause some real side effects. based mainly on the fact that your body can develope antibodies to the gh.. most people don't ... but you are one of the unlucky ones....
 
jonesboy said:
hmm i have been reading a lot about how the 192aa can cause some real side effects. based mainly on the fact that your body can develope antibodies to the gh.. most people don't ... but you are one of the unlucky ones....
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Hey Bro. I am confused by what your saying. "most people don't....but you are one of the lucky ones...." Please clarify. It does not makes sense to me, but I might be reading it wrong.

Please link the info you are talking about. I have read many posts on other boards by users and how they say that there is no real difference between the two and report positive results. I personally have not noticed anything but great things from the 192. Antibodies can be created by the body to either, but I would be amazed to see really sceintific data to say 192 produces more antibodies and what adverse effects it has.

What specific side effects are you refering to?
 
been reading about how bad 192aa is but i can't find much info which is why i posted it here to see if anyone here knows anything. over at professional muscle its considered a given that 192aa is bad.

what i meant from the above is kinda hard to remember either 3 or 30% of the people who use 192aa can develope bad sides. what they are i don't know.. which is why i asked the question to start.. if i find anything out i will post it here for ya..

later,,
 
from what i can find out.. use of 192aa can make your body develope antibodies to gh. Your own and the kind you are injecting.
 
jonesboy said:
from what i can find out.. use of 192aa can make your body develope antibodies to gh. Your own and the kind you are injecting.
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Please provide links to the information you have found. What scientific studes have been done to prove that and please provide links to those as well.

Thanks
 
I believe that 191aa versus 192aa debate is way overblown... here's a good post from AR.

fred9 said:
hey was reading about the side-effects of HGH and came along the following:

191AA (Humatrope):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. During the first 6 months of Humatrope therapy in 314 naive patients, only 1.6% developed specific antibodies to Humatrope (binding capacity ≥0.02 mg/L). None had antibody concentrations which exceeded 2 mg/L. Throughout 8 years of this same study, two patients (0.6%) had binding capacity >2 mg/L. Neither patient demonstrated a decrease in growth velocity at or near the time of increased antibody production. It has been reported that growth attenuation from pituitary-derived growth hormone may occur when antibody concentrations are
>1.5 mg/L.

192AA (Protropin):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. Growth hormone antibody binding capacities below 2 mg/L have not been associated with growth attenuation. In some cases when binding capacity exceeds 2 mg/L, growth attenuation has been observed. In clinical studies and postmarketing experience of patients treated with 192 amino acid for injection, approximately 0.4 percent of patients screened for antibody production developed antibodies with binding capacities > 2 mg/L at six months. Out of approximately 26,000 patients who have been treated with 192 amino acid residues , 5 (=0.02%)patients have had growth deceleration associated with binding capacities > 2 mg/L. If growth deceleration is observed that is not attributable to another cause, the patient should be tested for antibodies to growth hormone. Although no evidence exists to indicate that the methionine on the N-terminus of 192 amino acid residues causes antibodies to growth hormone, the physician should consider transferring the patient to somatropin (rDNA origin) for injection, if a patient has antibody binding capacity > 2 mg/L, and has exhibited growth attenuation.


Most 192AA is reconstituted with bac. water which includes BA and most 191AA with sterile water. Some people are sensitive to the benzyl alcohol and develop red welts from it. Its not the 192AA.
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More info from fred9...

fred9 said:
found some more articles:


-Department of Analytical Chemistry, Genentech Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA. [email protected]

The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

PMID: 12434920 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-The use of an animal immunogenicity model in the development of Protropin somatrem (methionyl human growth hormone).

Jones AJ.

Department of Analytical Chemistry, Genentech Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA. [email protected]

The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

-The molecular basis of recombinant DNA technology is described, and the principles of genetically engineered proteins developed. The production of hGH by such methods utilizes a strain of Escherichia coli as host and a vector plasmid containing the appropriate information. Fermentation and purification of the hGH produced gives a preparation of high purity, containing only 1-2 ppm of E. coli polypeptide (ECP). This somatrem (Somatonorm) is identical to pituitary hGH except for an additional methionine residue at the N-terminal. Monoclonal antibodies fail to distinguish between pituitary hGH and somatrem. Preclinical studies of a variety of pharmacological and toxicological parameters indicate that the two hGH preparations have identical biological effects; no toxicological or mutagenic effects of somatrem have been detected

Monoclonal antibodies to human growth hormone can distinguish between pituitary and genetically engineered forms.

Aston R, Cooper L, Holder A, Ivanyi J, Preece M.

Monoclonal antibodies (MABs) prepared against human pituitary growth hormone (hGH) have been compared for their binding to pituitary-derived and genetically engineered methionyl growth hormone (met-hGH). The antibodies bind to four non-overlapping epitopes of which two are completely shared with human choronic somatomammotropin (hCS). The determinant defined by MAB NA27 was expressed on met-hGH to a lesser degree than on hGH of pituitary origin. However, another antibody, QA68, which binds to a determinant closely related to NA27, failed to discriminate between hGH and met-hGH. A further two MABs (EB1 and NA71) were similarly ineffective in distinguishing between the two forms of the hormone. The determinant recognized by antibody EB2 was equally represented on hGH and met-hGH when assessed by a liquid-phase radioimmunoassay: however, measurement of the binding in a solid-phase assay resulted in a two-four-fold lower binding to met-hGH. Bioactivity assessed by both an in vitro cell proliferation assay and an in vivo cartilage sulphation bioassay failed to distinguish between the two hormones. It is therefore concluded that the NH2-terminal methionine on bacterially derived growth hormone results in altered antigenicity of the hormone without any measurable effect on bioactivity
Thus the bioactivity of met-hgh is the same as HGH

Most studies are performed on people with GHD, they allready have a very high anti-body level to HGH...Another problem is that most antibodies that were measured in those studies is based on antibodies to Escherichia coli proteins and not the antibodies to met-HGH..
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sikdogg said:
I believe that 191aa versus 192aa debate is way overblown... here's a good post from AR.
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Sure is Overblown I would say. If I read correctly the 191 actually had a higher percentage of of patients with anitbodies at 1.6%.

192 had .4 percent with antibodies and at 6 months 26,000 patients .02% or 5 patients have had growth deceleration.

Thanks for the clarification!
 
sikdogg said:
I believe that 191aa versus 192aa debate is way overblown... here's a good post from AR.
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Thats good to know.. I'm planning on buying a bundle of the 192aa
 
James said:
Thats good to know.. I'm planning on buying a bundle of the 192aa
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IMHO you will find it works exactly the same. I have used 192 for six months and find to be as good 191, sometimes I feel like it is more effective, but have no proof. Good luck.
 
HighRPM's said:
IMHO you will find it works exactly the same. I have used 192 for six months and find to be as good 191, sometimes I feel like it is more effective, but have no proof. Good luck.
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Even better... thanks
 
The 192 aa met HGH was used for a number of years for generating high rate of antibody formation and it is protein....so it plays a very important role for cell formation..
 
This is an interesting topic. Never taken peptide hormones myself but always read that you didn't want to take 192aa because of the possibility of developing anti-bodies and that 191aa was more desirable because it was the same sequence of AA that your body produces naturally.

I knew that many pro athletes wanted to avoid 192aa HGH because of the fears of it being more easily detected as opposed to 191aa but again I never taken HGH but definitely interested.
 
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