RPM on Cycle??
- Thread starter davidcyt
- Start date
ralph4u2c
Active member
what type of cycle are you on?
sean taylor
West Coast Highland Athlete
Both is good 
Vitruvian
O.G. Appnut
Depending on your cycle, it has good uses during both cycle and PCT.
Regardless, everybody rep Bio. Good call on the naringin, man.
CryingEmo
Well-known member
Well I took it one time while on orals... uh oh.
rms80
Board Sponsor
Agreed- naringin alters the pharmacokinetics of many drugs, extending their half-life in the body- this can be a good thing or a bad thing- it is simply something that someone needs to be aware of when taking RPM- especially when taking harsher 17-aa orals.
I think RPM will stack extremely well with any of these compounds, and can be used effectively for PCT, or stacked with PS/PH, BUT the user needs to be extremely careful when mixing these compounds- b/c the naringin in RPM will optimize/extend the effects of anything taken along w/ it, so please use caution, and start small!!!
CryingEmo
Well-known member
Well I took 6 RPM one day. On the same day I had taken 40 mg of epistane... sooo...
thewilman
Well-known member
Sooo, if it is not hepatoxic...it should not be a big deal. For example, Ergo 1AD, Derm 4AD, and RPM should not be an issue? :think:
RPM was going to be my monkey's secret weapon on that stack!
Any thoughts?
rms80
Board Sponsor
Sooo, if it is not hepatoxic...it should not be a big deal. For example, Ergo 1AD, Derm 4AD, and RPM should not be an issue? :think:
RPM was going to be my monkey's secret weapon on that stack!
Any thoughts?
Just be careful- and be cogniscient of how the naringin effects things- as long as you know what your monkey is taking, and how everything effects said monkey (usually comes through some trial and error; always start small)- you will be OK
thewilman
Well-known member
Just be careful- and be cogniscient of how the naringin effects things- as long as you know what your monkey is taking, and how everything effects said monkey (usually comes through some trial and error; always start small)- you will be OK
Both my monkey and I thank you!
My RPM is in transit and should be here on Tuesday...I think I'll take Tuesday off and wait for FedEx!
bitterplacebo
Well-known member
I've heard of grapefruit juice interacting with drugs before, possibly due to naringin content. So I did a little research, this site had some detailed stuff.
https://secure.pharmacytimes.com/lessons/200303-02.asp
Two interesting bits:
1) "Originally, naringin was thought to be the main component responsible for grapefruit-drug interactions. However, studies have shown naringin to be a weak inhibitor of CYP3A4.8,9 It was also demonstrated that the administration of isolated naringin to humans, in quantities comparable to those found in grapefruit juice, did not cause the same degree of inhibition as grapefruit juice."
2) "Additionally, the interaction appears to affect CYP3A4 in the gut wall to a much greater extent than in the liver.5"
So
-CYP3A4 enzyme often allows prodrugs to be activated and absorbed
-Grapefruit juice and naringin (to lesser degree) inhibits this enzyme
-RPM contains naringin, and could interact with drugs that have a low bioavailability (high first pass metabolism in the stomach), and are metabolized by the enzyme which naringin inhibits
From personal experience, I find that small doses of caffeine with grapefruit heighten my sense of euphoria and minimize the jitters and anxiety. So I'm looking forward to finding out how the other stuff in RPM synergizes.
As for using using RPM in conjunction with cycled compounds, someone with more knowledge of the compound's metabolism and bioavailability could predict any interactions than I could.
The safest suggestion that I think might be interesting to try would be to use RPM with a pulsed cycle. Taking RPM on the days opposite to the pulsed compound, which might minimize bad interactions. And also then using RPM during post cycle therapy could be a good way to keep the workout intensity up, although I'm not sure about interactions with SERMs.
Any ideas about whether that would be a good approach?
https://secure.pharmacytimes.com/lessons/200303-02.asp
Two interesting bits:
1) "Originally, naringin was thought to be the main component responsible for grapefruit-drug interactions. However, studies have shown naringin to be a weak inhibitor of CYP3A4.8,9 It was also demonstrated that the administration of isolated naringin to humans, in quantities comparable to those found in grapefruit juice, did not cause the same degree of inhibition as grapefruit juice."
2) "Additionally, the interaction appears to affect CYP3A4 in the gut wall to a much greater extent than in the liver.5"
So
-CYP3A4 enzyme often allows prodrugs to be activated and absorbed
-Grapefruit juice and naringin (to lesser degree) inhibits this enzyme
-RPM contains naringin, and could interact with drugs that have a low bioavailability (high first pass metabolism in the stomach), and are metabolized by the enzyme which naringin inhibits
From personal experience, I find that small doses of caffeine with grapefruit heighten my sense of euphoria and minimize the jitters and anxiety. So I'm looking forward to finding out how the other stuff in RPM synergizes.
As for using using RPM in conjunction with cycled compounds, someone with more knowledge of the compound's metabolism and bioavailability could predict any interactions than I could.
The safest suggestion that I think might be interesting to try would be to use RPM with a pulsed cycle. Taking RPM on the days opposite to the pulsed compound, which might minimize bad interactions. And also then using RPM during post cycle therapy could be a good way to keep the workout intensity up, although I'm not sure about interactions with SERMs.
Any ideas about whether that would be a good approach?
bitterplacebo
Well-known member
More interesting findings about possible RPM interactions with SERMs
from http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14711049 :
"Tamoxifen and toremifene have a bioavailability of approximately 100%, whereas that of raloxifene is only 2%. SERMs are very highly bound to plasma proteins (>95%). Tamoxifen and toremifene are metabolised by the cytochrome P450 enzyme system, and raloxifene is metabolised by glucuronide conjugation."
Naringin also inhibits this P450 enzyme system so might interact with tamoxifen and toremifene. However, they both have high bioavailability, suggesting that it won't be as big a problem.
from http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14711049 :
"Tamoxifen and toremifene have a bioavailability of approximately 100%, whereas that of raloxifene is only 2%. SERMs are very highly bound to plasma proteins (>95%). Tamoxifen and toremifene are metabolised by the cytochrome P450 enzyme system, and raloxifene is metabolised by glucuronide conjugation."
Naringin also inhibits this P450 enzyme system so might interact with tamoxifen and toremifene. However, they both have high bioavailability, suggesting that it won't be as big a problem.
CryingEmo
Well-known member
bitterplacebo
Well-known member
If that is indeed the Scooby Doo "uh oh," I don't understand what it's for. I was implying that RPM would be alright to take with most things, and the naringin content should not have a big negative effect on prosteroid/prohormone or SERMs.
Those with prescription meds for things like blood pressure or mood might want to definitely check with a doctor, though.
CryingEmo
Well-known member
LOL, my bad, i misunderstood what you said.
rms80
Board Sponsor
A very interesting approach- it has some pro's and con's- I can give you at least a little more insight.....
Here is what we do know:
- Naringin has been shown to increase the bioavaliability of cholesterol-based hormones (PH's,PS's, estradiol, oral anabolic steroids), caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and numerous other compounds
- Naringin increases the half-life of cholesterol-based hormones, caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and others in the body..
So you have a compound (Naringin) that lengthens the half-life and increases the bioavaliability of certain compounds
Taking RPM opposite the pulsed compound could be beneficial, but it is also dependant on the half-life of the pulsed compound- the half-life on most orals runs from 4-8 hours, this leads to a con- when taken in a one day on/one day off fashion, this will cause large fluctuations in blood levels of RPM, and whatever the pulsed compound is...
There are several solutions to this:
1. When on cycle, and if you are worried about the interaction and the compounds in RPM increasing blood levels of your SERM/pro-steroid too much- use RPM strictly as a pre-workout, and space out your dose of your PS away from the RPM (simply go by the half-life- if you work out during the day- take the dose of PS/PH at night)- and then run RPM for your PCT in an every day fashion...
2. Reduce your dose of PS/PH- taking it with RPM will make it more effective and last longer in the body- so you will not need to take as much- save some $$$
3. Stack RPM/PS/PH together and guage the effects by how you feel/results, and make adjustments from there- more of a trial/error type approach
PS Post up you feedback on this- my way/my suggestions are not necessarily the gospel- I would like the hear everyone else's thoughts on this, so chime in- definitely some good feedback!!!!
Here is what we do know:
- Naringin has been shown to increase the bioavaliability of cholesterol-based hormones (PH's,PS's, estradiol, oral anabolic steroids), caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and numerous other compounds
- Naringin increases the half-life of cholesterol-based hormones, caffeine, SERMs, PDE5 inhibitors, and others in the body..
So you have a compound (Naringin) that lengthens the half-life and increases the bioavaliability of certain compounds
Taking RPM opposite the pulsed compound could be beneficial, but it is also dependant on the half-life of the pulsed compound- the half-life on most orals runs from 4-8 hours, this leads to a con- when taken in a one day on/one day off fashion, this will cause large fluctuations in blood levels of RPM, and whatever the pulsed compound is...
There are several solutions to this:
1. When on cycle, and if you are worried about the interaction and the compounds in RPM increasing blood levels of your SERM/pro-steroid too much- use RPM strictly as a pre-workout, and space out your dose of your PS away from the RPM (simply go by the half-life- if you work out during the day- take the dose of PS/PH at night)- and then run RPM for your PCT in an every day fashion...
2. Reduce your dose of PS/PH- taking it with RPM will make it more effective and last longer in the body- so you will not need to take as much- save some $$$
3. Stack RPM/PS/PH together and guage the effects by how you feel/results, and make adjustments from there- more of a trial/error type approach
PS Post up you feedback on this- my way/my suggestions are not necessarily the gospel- I would like the hear everyone else's thoughts on this, so chime in- definitely some good feedback!!!!
bitterplacebo
Well-known member
I think those suggestions are good, but I have some concerns/ideas about some.
The original poster asked about RPM+Havoc/Epistane, which I'm guessing might be a beneficial stack without as much toxicity concerns since Havoc/Epistane is supposed to be mild (correct me if I'm wrong). But more caution is probably advisable with heavier or harsher cycles.
As for fluctuation in blood levels of RPM, I'm not sure what could cause a concern here, other than the caffeine. Large fluctuations in that might do some damage to one's mood or give them headaches. But that could be fixed by just taking a stimulant with caffeine that does not contain naringin on the day that the other oral is being pulsed.
Fluctuating icariin and arginine-maybe some arousal problems? But I would think it's nothing that could cause too serious of hormonal/mood concerns.
So this might suggest some unexpected or more pronounced toxicity issues if not careful about using RPM on a cycle or in post cycle therapy. Spacing apart the dosing of a PS/PH, oral, or SERM with that of RPM might help minimize this concern, but still keep the benefits of each about what they are regularly. Lowering dosages also could help if taking both together, but probably more risky since there's no definite answer right now on how much of an increase in bioavailability and half-life the naringin will cause.
The original poster asked about RPM+Havoc/Epistane, which I'm guessing might be a beneficial stack without as much toxicity concerns since Havoc/Epistane is supposed to be mild (correct me if I'm wrong). But more caution is probably advisable with heavier or harsher cycles.
I think it's been most people's experience that there isn't a big problem in fluctuating blood levels of the oral that they're pulsing. This is just how I remember reading about it, but anyone who has experienced otherwise please say so.
As for fluctuation in blood levels of RPM, I'm not sure what could cause a concern here, other than the caffeine. Large fluctuations in that might do some damage to one's mood or give them headaches. But that could be fixed by just taking a stimulant with caffeine that does not contain naringin on the day that the other oral is being pulsed.
Fluctuating icariin and arginine-maybe some arousal problems? But I would think it's nothing that could cause too serious of hormonal/mood concerns.
rms80
Board Sponsor
So this might suggest some unexpected or more pronounced toxicity issues if not careful about using RPM on a cycle or in post cycle therapy. Spacing apart the dosing of a PS/PH, oral, or SERM with that of RPM might help minimize this concern, but still keep the benefits of each about what they are regularly. Lowering dosages also could help if taking both together, but probably more risky since there's no definite answer right now on how much of an increase in bioavailability and half-life the naringin will cause.
The original poster asked about RPM+Havoc/Epistane, which I'm guessing might be a beneficial stack without as much toxicity concerns since Havoc/Epistane is supposed to be mild (correct me if I'm wrong). But more caution is probably advisable with heavier or harsher cycles.
Good Post!!
As far as side effects/toxicity- yes, epi is very mild, and not very hepatotoxic- that aspect does not really worry me- but combine it with Halotestin, Dianabol, or Anadrol, that may be a completely different story
Fluctuations in icariin levels will probably not cause any problems per se in the arousal department- it is a potent PDE5 inhibitor, but all the literature I have read on Viagra and Cialis states that if the drugs are discontinued, no erectile "issues" would result (aside from the ones the user was already having in the first place...).
However, icariin does have other very beneficial effects outside of PDE5 inhibition, like a testosterone mimicking effect and a potent anti-catabolic/anti-glucocorticoid effect, and to fully benefit from these effects- it is best to have stable blood levels of Icariin. Remember that while RPM works right away, it also has cumulative benefits- and many of these benefits arise from keeping relatively stable blood levels, so in light of all the info I have, simply spacing your RPM doses away from the doses of other medications is probably the best thing....
The original poster asked about RPM+Havoc/Epistane, which I'm guessing might be a beneficial stack without as much toxicity concerns since Havoc/Epistane is supposed to be mild (correct me if I'm wrong). But more caution is probably advisable with heavier or harsher cycles.
Good Post!!
As far as side effects/toxicity- yes, epi is very mild, and not very hepatotoxic- that aspect does not really worry me- but combine it with Halotestin, Dianabol, or Anadrol, that may be a completely different story
Fluctuations in icariin levels will probably not cause any problems per se in the arousal department- it is a potent PDE5 inhibitor, but all the literature I have read on Viagra and Cialis states that if the drugs are discontinued, no erectile "issues" would result (aside from the ones the user was already having in the first place...).
However, icariin does have other very beneficial effects outside of PDE5 inhibition, like a testosterone mimicking effect and a potent anti-catabolic/anti-glucocorticoid effect, and to fully benefit from these effects- it is best to have stable blood levels of Icariin. Remember that while RPM works right away, it also has cumulative benefits- and many of these benefits arise from keeping relatively stable blood levels, so in light of all the info I have, simply spacing your RPM doses away from the doses of other medications is probably the best thing....
bitterplacebo
Well-known member
Good to know, thank you for explaining, sir!
Now in the absence of all the other drug interaction junk we talked about:
This also means you'd recommend RPM as not strictly a pre-workout supplement, but possibly dosing a couple times of the day? I ask because the description and directions of RPM aren't clear about this. It's said to be a preworkout formula, but dosings are listed in capsules/day by bodyweight. Might want to get someone to reword those directions to make it clearer.
rms80
Board Sponsor
Agreed about the tag lines/directions on RPM- we (at AN) are still learning how potent this compound really is long term (amazing!!), so the more feedback I get, the more I pass it on to our customers....
RPM is not strictly a pre-workout supplement (although I feel it is better than anything else out there for this purpose)- it can also be used for other applications as well.....
I would recommend RPM for any of the below, because it does them all (no bs
):-AI inhibitor/estrogen inhibitor/overall physique hardener
-ups free testosterone and inhibits SHBG
-strength enhancement
-fat loss
-energy, intensity, and focus
-pump and vasodilation
-libido booster
-recomping agent
-agression/alpha male feeling (other products claim this- RPM will make you feel like you are 10 feet tall- effects become more pronounced with time)
-drug-free athletic enhancement
-lowers cortisol
There are more benefits from RPM- these are just the ones I can think of straight off the top of my head
yeahright
Well-known member
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........I hadn't even thought about this issue. I tried my sample yesterday before an aerobics workout (hiking up and down long steep hills).....and yes, I am on other products at the moment.
Frankly, I don't think people should be so concered about the ph/ps as the support sups. Many people take red yeast rice and there have been isolated deaths from people combining statins and grapefruit juice (toxic dose build-up).
As to me, no obvious ill effects. The RPM was great.....I never felt stimmed but I simply didn't want to stop exercising even when my legs were all cramped and I was dripping in sweat.
Frankly, I don't think people should be so concered about the ph/ps as the support sups. Many people take red yeast rice and there have been isolated deaths from people combining statins and grapefruit juice (toxic dose build-up).
As to me, no obvious ill effects. The RPM was great.....I never felt stimmed but I simply didn't want to stop exercising even when my legs were all cramped and I was dripping in sweat.
rms80
Board Sponsor
To my knowledge, based upon all avaliable research- there is no reason to cycle RPM- it seems to be safe over long periods of time
powerhouse21
Active member
hmm got my RPM today but im taking methoxy TST currently.....
rms80
Board Sponsor
Try RPM with it- but start small and work your way up- should be a potent stack!!!
powerhouse21
Active member
so should i start out with say half the dosage of RPM and work my way up. Im at 8 mg of tst
rms80
Board Sponsor
RPM has several Aromatase Inhibitors (grape seed, naringenin, and icariin) included in the formula in substantial amounts, and all AIs share a common action: SHBG inhibition- this is good for free test, but can have a negative effect on libido in some compounds that do prevent SHBG.
There are many different compounds that allow for SHBG inhibition, but do not kill sex drive- testosterone has SHBG-inhibiting effects, as well as Viagra, Cialis, Icariin, Papaverine, and other PDE5 inhibitors. All of these compounds are also well-known sexual enhancers- so SHBG inhibition will not necessarily kill the libido.....
That being said, when I was formulating RPM, I kept this in mind- were there any compounds out there with AI characteristics (and subsequent SHBG inhibition/free test elevation), that could also yield heightened libido, cause PDE5 inhibition,allow for greater blood flow and vascularity, and greater sexual and functional DRIVE?
The answer is: of course!!!
Icariin is a perfect fit, and grape seed extract also carries the same characteristics as well. Naringenin does not necessarily heighten libido, but it is known to positively (guess it depends on who you ask) effect the absorption of both steroid hormones, and PDE5 inhibitors. It was kind of like putting a puzzle together, and taking into account inter-compound interactions- it took a lot of trial-and-error, but I think the result turned out pretty well (RPM).
thewilman
Well-known member
Understatement of the year!
Pride leads to disgrace,but with humility comes wisdom. - Proverbs 11:2
Must be true!
My RPM should be waiting for me at my doorstep when I get home!
:dl: :squat: :clean:
powerhouse21
Active member
Just took 4 caps and im about to go do some cardio. Im going to wait until about 2 or 3 to take my tst to make sure there isnt a negative reaction between the two just to be on the safe side.....im already feeling the surge of energy so i have a feeling this workout is gonna be kick ass!
rms80
Board Sponsor
Let us know how it turns out!!
rms80
Board Sponsor
Understatement of the year!
Pride leads to disgrace,but with humility comes wisdom. - Proverbs 11:2
Must be true!
My RPM should be waiting for me at my doorstep when I get home!
:dl: :squat: :clean:
Awesome!!
powerhouse21
Active member
today's cardio workout was insane. I was sweating way more than i ever had before and i didnt want to stop after 60 minutes so i had to force my self to. It's only day 1 but this sure seems to be the real deal.. GREAT PRODUCT AN!!!
rms80
Board Sponsor
Thanks!!
rms80
Board Sponsor
Just got it! Sweet caps! They are VERY cool!
I just posted in the old contest thread
Glad you like them- they were big Don's favorite!
bioman
Well-known member
RPM has several Aromatase Inhibitors (grape seed, naringenin, and icariin) included in the formula in substantial amounts, and all AIs share a common action: SHBG inhibition- this is good for free test, but can have a negative effect on libido in some compounds that do prevent SHBG.
There are many different compounds that allow for SHBG inhibition, but do not kill sex drive- testosterone has SHBG-inhibiting effects, as well as Viagra, Cialis, Icariin, Papaverine, and other PDE5 inhibitors. All of these compounds are also well-known sexual enhancers- so SHBG inhibition will not necessarily kill the libido.....
That being said, when I was formulating RPM, I kept this in mind- were there any compounds out there with AI characteristics (and subsequent SHBG inhibition/free test elevation), that could also yield heightened libido, cause PDE5 inhibition,allow for greater blood flow and vascularity, and greater sexual and functional DRIVE?
The answer is: of course!!!
It was kind of like putting a puzzle together, and taking into account inter-compound interactions- it took a lot of trial-and-error, but I think the result turned out pretty well (RPM).
The loss of libido from Rebound or other AI's is more likely due to the heavy suppression of estrogen(s) which are critical to both the male and female libido.
In any case, they significantly alter E to T ratioes and likely have several other more nuanced effects that are harder to test for. ATD and RR kill my libido dead, RPM..quite the opposite. The PDE5 inhibition coupled with Icariin's well known effects on increasing semen volume make it unlikely that it will suppress libido. It's also not going to drive your E levels down as hard as an AI like 6 Bromo, ATD, Letro or Arimidex
rms80
Board Sponsor
Thrall
Member
I am considering pulsing epistane, as this seems to be the best method to use orals. If I use RPM during that cycle, will my "rebounds" be better? I would think that it would help prevent shutdown. Perhaps another test booster as well (Leviathan)? Then I would do mild PCT (maybe Nolva, proviron) with some cycle support or something. Does that seem like a reasonable plan?
rms80
Board Sponsor
It does sound reasonable, and the "rebounds" SHOULD theoretically be much, much better- our IGF-2 would be perfect as far as a test booster to stack with RPM on the rebounds- awesome stuff, and an awesome stack!!!
PS- ditch the Proviron out of the pct- it will keep you shut down
Stack in IGF-2/NeoVar/RPM and you will actually gain weight in pct :bb2:
Thrall
Member
It does sound reasonable, and the "rebounds" SHOULD theoretically be much, much better- our IGF-2 would be perfect as far as a test booster to stack with RPM on the rebounds- awesome stuff, and an awesome stack!!!
PS- ditch the Proviron out of the post cycle therapy- it will keep you shut down
Stack in IGF-2/NeoVar/RPM and you will actually gain weight in post cycle therapy :bb2:
You have just been an enormous help to me. Thank you.
rms80
Board Sponsor
No problem bud!!