Toremifene Citrate vs Tamoxifen Citrate

wiggles

New member
Well what's the low down on these 2. I am getting ready to run a cycle of superdrol and I don't know which to use. From what i've read everyone seems to be using the tried and true Nolva or Tamoxifen Citrate, but I also read that Toremifene is much superior and also less toxic. Can anyone verify with me that Toremifene is a superior REPLACEMENT for Tamoxifen?
 
Do your balls hang low?
Do they wobble to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Can you throw them over your shoulder
Like a continental soldier?
Do your balls hang low?

Your Answer After One Week of P.C.T.:
Tamoxifen: "Sort of... I guess."
Toremifene: "YES!"
 
team savage has put it in terms all of us can understand and love.

pick toremifene and prepare yourself to be dragging around two death stars in your nut sack.
 
What is the proper dosing protocol with toremifene. The only post I saw said it was dosed 160/120/80/40 and he said he dosed it high. So should I dose it at 140/100/60/20 or xould I get away with 120/80/40 after a 3 week SD cycle at 10/20/20?
 
wiggles said:
What is the proper dosing protocol with toremifene. The only post I saw said it was dosed 160/120/80/40 and he said he dosed it high. So should I dose it at 140/100/60/20 or xould I get away with 120/80/40 after a 3 week superdrol cycle at 10/20/20?
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I think I'm going with 120/80/40/20 this time, but I might skip the last week. Toremifene works so fast that in 3 days my balls came screaming back last time. I will probably taper into a NHA cyce starting week 2.
 
Werewolf said:
I think I'm going with 120/80/40/20 this time, but I might skip the last week. Toremifene works so fast that in 3 days my balls came screaming back last time. I will probably taper into a NHA cyce starting week 2.
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I guess I could be a little more detailed on the NHA cycle. I expect I will start 4 to 8 ActivaTe as soon as balls kick back in (probably day 3). I will take 25 mg ATD in week 2. 50 mg ATD week 3. 50mg ATD and 1 Rebound Reloaded in week 4 through 8. I will probably take 10 mgs of Pheraplex (2 days morning), 8 mgs Mohn (4 morning, 4 night) and 200 mgs DHEA (morning) for first 3 days of post cycle therapy. I know it seems like that should slow recovery, but doesn't seem to for me.
 
So would this constitute a proper/safe PCT:

Toremifene @ 120/80/40/20
6 OXO @ 600/400/200/100
Rebound XT @ 0/25/50/75
Fenugreek @ 2/3/4/5
 
wiggles said:
So would this constitute a proper/safe post cycle therapy:

Toremifene @ 120/80/40/20
6 OXO @ 600/400/200/100
Rebound XT @ 0/25/50/75
Fenugreek @ 2/3/4/5
Click to expand...
no need for 60x0 AND Rebound. Too much AI imo but still possible i guess
 
wiggles said:
So would this constitute a proper/safe post cycle therapy:

Toremifene @ 120/80/40/20
6 OXO @ 600/400/200/100
Rebound XT @ 0/25/50/75
Fenugreek @ 2/3/4/5
Click to expand...

Drop the 6 OXO completely, it will lower your estrogen way too much. That would lead to loss of libido, low white blood cell counts and low HDL levels. Above 50 mgs of Rebound XT (ATD) can lead to loss of Libido. So make the last week 50 mgs instead.
 
Ok so let me try this again:

Toremifene @ 120/80/40/20
Rebound XT @ 0 or 25?/25/50/50
Fenugree @ 2/3/4/5

Also if I couldn't get Toremifene I could run this same post cycle therapy replacing it with Nolva at 40/40/20/20 or 40/30/20/10 ?

Would adding retain serve any benefits?

Also at what week in PCT could I start my BAM+JW cycle? Or would I have to complete PCT first?
 
TeamSavage said:
Do your balls hang low?
Do they wobble to and fro?
Can you tie 'em in a knot?
Can you tie 'em in a bow?
Can you throw them over your shoulder
Like a continental soldier?
Do your balls hang low?

Your Answer After One Week of P.C.T.:
Tamoxifen: "Sort of... I guess."
Toremifene: "YES!"
Click to expand...


hahahah i spat my water all over my keyboard with that one hehe
 
wiggles said:
Ok so let me try this again:

Toremifene @ 120/80/40/20
Rebound XT @ 0 or 25?/25/50/50
Fenugree @ 2/3/4/5

Also if I couldn't get Toremifene I could run this same post cycle therapy replacing it with Nolva at 40/40/20/20 or 40/30/20/10 ?

Would adding retain serve any benefits?

Also at what week in post cycle therapy could I start my BAM+JW cycle? Or would I have to complete post cycle therapy first?
Click to expand...

I like letting the Toremifene do its job the first week without any AI lowering the estrogen levels any further so I would wait until second week for any AI like Rebound XT (ADT).

Yes, adding retain is good for reducing cortisol levels.

If you are going to run JW then drop both the Rebound XT and Retain as over kill (bad thing) since JW contains similar things. You should wait until day 4, but day 8 is probably better. I think you can start BAM whenever you want, but I have never used it.

40/30/20/10 is the Nolva protocol. Get Toremifene, it is so much better.

Try to be careful with the everything but the kitchen sink mentality to post cycle therapy. Extremely low estrogen is bad for you. SERMS provide some estrogen support so they work best in the beginning. This is the reason for running AIs inverse to SERMS. AIs can produce testostrone levels double of normal which SERMS are not as good at. More is not always better especially at first.

By the way, tonight is dose 2 of my post cycle therapy. I have 36 hours until I expect my balls to come screaming back.
 
Just a reminder since I'm sitting here drinking my gatoraide and Toremifene. Toremifene tastes like vomit (actually worse) so mixing it with something like gatoraide is very important.
 
Werewolf said:
Just a reminder since I'm sitting here drinking my gatoraide and Toremifene. Toremifene tastes like vomit (actually worse) so mixing it with something like gatoraide is very important.
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Raloxifene taste wonderful. I have always gone with capping nasty SERMs. 1cc fits in the big capsules (00?). no taste, you should try it.
 
Price wise the torm I found was 60 dollars for 30ML, which it would take more than one bottle for a post cycle therapy. While I could buy enough nolva for 2 full PCTs for 60 bucks.

Am I just not looking in the right places for the torm or what?
 
wiggles said:
Price wise the torm I found was 60 dollars for 30ML, which it would take more than one bottle for a post cycle therapy. While I could buy enough nolva for 2 full PCTs for 60 bucks.

Am I just not looking in the right places for the torm or what?
Click to expand...
Got an e-mail address?
 
Werewolf said:
By the way, tonight is dose 2 of my post cycle therapy. I have 36 hours until I expect my balls to come screaming back.
Click to expand...

What does your PCT look like? What did you just get off a cycle of?
 
wiggles said:
Price wise the torm I found was 60 dollars for 30ML, which it would take more than one bottle for a post cycle therapy. While I could buy enough nolva for 2 full PCTs for 60 bucks.

Am I just not looking in the right places for the torm or what?
Click to expand...

Your math is off and you are not looking in the right places both. I got two PCTs (60ml) for 55 dollars, but I can not tell you where. Sorry.
 
I have not been paying attention as much lately but it sounds like I need to start researching torm. that much better than nolva or clomid huh?
as far as the rxt, 25 mg is about the max for me or my joints start hurting.
 
Werewolf said:
Your math is off and you are not looking in the right places both. I got two PCTs (60ml) for 55 dollars, but I can not tell you where. Sorry.
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If my math is correct it would take 30 and 1/3 ML of Torm to complete at post cycle therapy at the dosages of 120/80/40/20. Tell me where my math is going wrong:
Week 1 - 120MG or 2ML x 7days = 14ML
Week 2 - 80MG or 1 1/3ML x 7days = 9 1/3ML
Week 3 - 40MG or 2/3ML x 7days = 4 2/3ML
Week 4 - 20MG or 1/3ML x 7days = 2 1/3ML
Total = 30 1/3 ML

I suppose you would live if you only ran it 27 days cutting it short 1 day.

You wouldn't be able to shoot me an email and let me know where you got it at that price would you?

Also you said if I ran JW to drop RXT. So how's this look.

Torm @ 120/80/40/20
DHEA @ 200/200/100/100
JW @ 0/1/2/3 (capsules)
Fenugreek @ 2/3/4/5

Sorry for so many questions, I greatly appreciate all help.
 
wiggles said:
If my math is correct it would take 30 and 1/3 ML of Torm to complete at post cycle therapy at the dosages of 120/80/40/20. Tell me where my math is going wrong:
Week 1 - 120MG or 2ML x 7days = 14ML
Week 2 - 80MG or 1 1/3ML x 7days = 9 1/3ML
Week 3 - 40MG or 2/3ML x 7days = 4 2/3ML
Week 4 - 20MG or 1/3ML x 7days = 2 1/3ML
Total = 30 1/3 ML

I suppose you would live if you only ran it 27 days cutting it short 1 day.

You wouldn't be able to shoot me an email and let me know where you got it at that price would you?

Also you said if I ran JW to drop RXT. So how's this look.

Torm @ 120/80/40/20
DHEA @ 200/200/100/100
JW @ 0/1/2/3 (capsules)
Fenugreek @ 2/3/4/5

Sorry for so many questions, I greatly appreciate all help.
Click to expand...

I assume you are going run JW for more like 8 weeks.

I running DHEA only at 200 mgs for first 4 days or so and then down to 25 mgs. By week 4 you should probably be no higher 25 mgs to 50 mgs of DHEA unless you know you have a medical deficiency. DHEA is best at giving you some Estrogen when you have none. In some (mostly older) men 25 to 50 mgs can give a big boost in testosterone levels. Some even benefit from 100 mg, but some men can be push down at 100 mgs. I don't understand why a search on "toremifene citrate 60ml" isn't helping you. 27 days on Toremifene is more than enough. Overkill and porno sized load shots.
 
Werewolf said:
I assume you are going run JW for more like 8 weeks.

I running DHEA only at 200 mgs for first 4 days or so and then down to 25 mgs. By week 4 you should probably be no higher 25 mgs to 50 mgs of DHEA unless you know you have a medical deficiency. DHEA is best at giving you some Estrogen when you have none. In some (mostly older) men 25 to 50 mgs can give a big boost in testosterone levels. Some even benefit from 100 mg, but some men can be push down at 100 mgs. I don't understand why a search on "toremifene citrate 60ml" isn't helping you. 27 days on Toremifene is more than enough. Overkill and porno sized load shots.
Click to expand...


I love you. I was doing the search minus 60ML and now that I threw that in it's like BINGO. But anyways how long do you run it for if 4 weeks is overkill. I thought the dosages of 120/80/40/20 were meant to be ramped down weekly. How many days do you run each dosage?

I'm going to run the JW at 0/1/2/3 and as soon as PCT is done jump into BAM + JW for 2 weeks, then BAM + Restore for 2 weeks, then Restore for 2 weeks. I think this will help me secure my gains from the SD cycle.
 
You could probably get away with as little as two weeks of toremifene as long as taking an AI (such as JW). Maybe even just a week. It works so fast. I will go at least three weeks. I think I'm doing 120mg for a week, 90mg and 45mg for week. I go by how I feel so it changes.
 
Werewolf said:
You could probably get away with as little as two weeks of toremifene as long as taking an AI (such as JW). Maybe even just a week. It works so fast. I will go at least three weeks. I think I'm doing 120mg for a week, 90mg and 45mg for week. I go by how I feel so it changes.
Click to expand...

Why would one take an AI while taking a SERM for PCT?
 
Thanks so much for your help werewolf. This is what the plan is now and let me know if you still see flaws:

torm @ 120/90/45/ (20 if necessary)
DHEA @ 200(3 days)50(4 days)/25/25/25
JW @ 0/1/2/3 and continue 3 + BAM after PCT
Fenugreek @ 2g/3g/4g/5g
 
wiggles said:
Thanks so much for your help werewolf. This is what the plan is now and let me know if you still see flaws:

torm @ 120/90/45/ (20 if necessary)
DHEA @ 200(3 days)50(4 days)/25/25/25
JW @ 0/1/2/3 and continue 3 + BAM after post cycle therapy
Fenugreek @ 2g/3g/4g/5g
Click to expand...

Looks pretty good to me. Good luck

By the way it is day 4 for me and my balls hurt from growing. That is good thing so don't let it scare you.
 
musclepigg said:
Why would one take an AI while taking a SERM for post cycle therapy?
Click to expand...

AIs are better for producing higher than normal Testosterone levels. Double of normal is very possible with right AI. Serms also tend to load the liver and so are best to be kept to a minimum. SERMS are much better than AIs at first because they provide a minimum amount of Estrogen support helping HDL levels and white blood cell to be better. Also Libido support. SERMS are also very good if estrogen is very high going into PCTs. The goal is really to keep the estrogen level at above a minimum level with as much testosterone boost as possible as fast as possible.
 
Werewolf said:
AIs are better for producing higher than normal Testosterone levels. Double of normal is very possible with right AI. Serms also tend to load the liver and so are best to be kept to a minimum. SERMS are much better than AIs at first because they provide a minimum amount of Estrogen support helping HDL levels and white blood cell to be better. Also Libido support. SERMS are also very good if estrogen is very high going into PCTs. The goal is really to keep the estrogen level at above a minimum level with as much testosterone boost as possible as fast as possible.
Click to expand...

Which AIs are those?
 
musclepigg said:
Which AIs are those?
Click to expand...

I like 50 mgs of ADT (2 - Rebound XT) and 1 Rebound Reloaded.

Some people just like 2 to 3 Rebound Reloaded.
More 50 mgs of ADT can cause libido issues, but ADT has a higher testosterone boost for amount of estrogen suppression. I'm trying to get maximum testosterone boost with maximum estrogen level.
 
Werewolf said:
I like 50 mgs of ADT (2 - Rebound XT) and 1 Rebound Reloaded.

Some people just like 2 to 3 Rebound Reloaded.
More 50 mgs of ADT can cause libido issues, but ADT has a higher testosterone boost for amount of estrogen suppression. I'm trying to get maximum testosterone boost with maximum estrogen level.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Do you just run this continually as your sole T augmentation, or do you cycle and/or switch around AIs?

And how does this work? If AI prevents conversion of T to E, how will this help you get Max T and Max E? Does the decrease in conversion of T to E cause your body to want to make more T?
 
musclepigg said:
Interesting. Do you just run this continually as your sole T augmentation, or do you cycle and/or switch around AIs?

And how does this work? If AI prevents conversion of T to E, how will this help you get Max T and Max E? Does the decrease in conversion of T to E cause your body to want to make more T?
Click to expand...

I run as part of an NHA cycle of about 8 weeks with 6 to 8 ActivaTe. Ramping in starting second week of PCT. Week 2 - 25 mgs ADT, Week 3 - 50 mgs ADT, Week 4 though 8 add 1 Rebound reloaded. This results in testosterone levels of around double and free testosterone levels about thriple. I taper out dropping Rebound Reloaded then 4 days later drop 25 ADT and then 4 days later to 0. I taper off the ActivaTe at same time.

If you let your HPTA keep up with changes it keeps estogen from being extremily low. HPTA takes about 4 days to adjust to bring testosterone level up to try to get estrogen levels back up where they belong. Making rapid changes in estrogen levels can more problems more than most people realize.
 
Werewolf said:
I run as part of an NHA cycle of about 8 weeks with 6 to 8 ActivaTe. Ramping in starting second week of post cycle therapy. Week 2 - 25 mgs ADT, Week 3 - 50 mgs ADT, Week 4 though 8 add 1 Rebound reloaded. This results in testosterone levels of around double and free testosterone levels about thriple. I taper out dropping Rebound Reloaded then 4 days later drop 25 ADT and then 4 days later to 0. I taper off the ActivaTe at same time.

If you let your HPTA keep up with changes it keeps estogen from being extremily low. HPTA takes about 4 days to adjust to bring testosterone level up to try to get estrogen levels back up where they belong. Making rapid changes in estrogen levels can more problems more than most people realize.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. How much time off between cycles? Thanks for the info.
 
Have you read the 5th entery up from the bottom of page 1? Please delete both your posts and read the rules.
 
Werewolf said:
Looks pretty good to me. Good luck

By the way it is day 4 for me and my balls hurt from growing. That is good thing so don't let it scare you.
Click to expand...

I thought people were kidding when they talked about this, but they weren't. My nuts were like a couple of wrinkly balloons getting inflated at around that time in my torem PCT. It hurt, but it was a good hurt.
 
phaeton66 said:
I thought people were kidding when they talked about this, but they weren't. My nuts were like a couple of wrinkly balloons getting inflated at around that time in my torem post cycle therapy. It hurt, but it was a good hurt.
Click to expand...

Long live Torm!
 
Is there any scientific empirical evidence that shows Toremifene is a better PCt product than Tamoxifen?
 
Werewolf said:
Looks pretty good to me. Good luck

By the way it is day 4 for me and my balls hurt from growing. That is good thing so don't let it scare you.
Click to expand...

you mentioned that you were going to do 3 weeks on it depending on how you felt...

how long did you end up doing your PCT with torem?
 
Werewolf said:
I like 50 mgs of ADT (2 - Rebound XT) and 1 Rebound Reloaded.

Some people just like 2 to 3 Rebound Reloaded.
More 50 mgs of ADT can cause libido issues, but ADT has a higher testosterone boost for amount of estrogen suppression. I'm trying to get maximum testosterone boost with maximum estrogen level.
Click to expand...

Werewolf, did you mean "minimum estrogen level"?...just curious.
 
dsw222 said:
you mentioned that you were going to do 3 weeks on it depending on how you felt...

how long did you end up doing your post cycle therapy with torem?
Click to expand...

I did a little over three weeks on Torm. If you have read the whole thread you have see I tapered into NHA cycle. I'm in my 5th week of NHA with my balls about twice the size as normal and my free testosterone at 300%. I'm desperately cutting to get my six pack show though all the way through.

With the speed Torm works and the fact I headed into NHA with AIs, I could have gotten away with less than two weeks on Torm, but why. I was pretty much recovered after the first week, heck day 4 for that matter.

Cutting PCT short isn't something that you really want to do.
I'm really in week 6 of PCT with another 4 to go.
 
Ninjo said:
Werewolf, did you mean "minimum estrogen level"?...just curious.
Click to expand...

No, too low of estrogen can lead to libido issues, low HDL and low white blood cell count. Low estrogen also is hard on joints.

You absolutely do not want reduce your estrogen level too low. Besides estrogen is anabolic.
 
I found 60mg/ml 60ml for $55, its on the way
every other place I know of is 50-60mg/ml 30ml for $60
 
its against board rules to ask for sources sorry, and its not like google is a search engine or anything, I found it on my own you can to
 
On a slightly unrelated note, my buddy recently bought some liquid Toremifene Citrate and the label says things like "manufactured for research purposes only and may be harmful if ingested", "not approved for human ingestion" type warnings.

Do all the brands say this or did he buy some inferior version that he should not use?

Ltyson
 
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