Iconic Formulations - Alpha Four : how long for the effects to kick in?

[mpross10]

Hi all,

Im currently on day 5 of using Alpha Four by Iconic Formulations (4-dhea and androsterone topical) due to seeing so many positive reviews on the product. Im using 5 pumps per day in the early morning (rubbed into shoulders and upper chest).

Since day 1 I have noticed its killed my erections, I actually feel weaker in the gym and generally have a lethargic semi-depressed mood. I was perfectly fine and hitting solid numbers in the gym before trying this so I am not sure if this is suppression of my natural levels kicking in and I just need to ride it out? Im not sure I want to run 8 weeks of this if its not going to vastly improve.. Anyone else have similar experiences with this?

 

[Joshlm69]

I would think it highly unlikely to be able to have anything positive or negative happen on day 1, it has to build up in your system.

But some thoughts

1) Why did you dive in straight at 5 pumps? that is an extremely high dose. Even if you are 220+lbs, I would always start at 3 and re-evaluate after a couple of days

2) The effects you describe are likely from having pushed your estrogen far too high, this would make sense if your e2 was actually high to begin with prior to starting A4.

3) Why are you actually taking Alpha Four. If you are a healthy individual and like you said progressing well in the gym, all you are doing is replacing your natural testosterone with a most likely a much lower dose of exogenous testosterone. I believe @Smont said that with 4 andro, you will be topping out at 500 test levels. So if you are over 500 naturally, youre just supressing yourself for no reason. Alpha Four is good as a test base if you are using prohormones/anabolic steroids or somehow using it as a temporary TRT measure. But running it solo doesn't seem very beneficial

 

[mpross10]

Thanks for the reply. So to answer your questions - 4-5 pumps is the dose recommended and most seem to say to use 5. Im 6ft 2 210lbs and 43 years old so I guess I was going in with the max recommended dose to avoid under-dosing. Im taking it partly because at my age I just wanted to try and up my game I guess, perhaps benefit from the increased libido and body recomp that many users seem to support. I had bloods done earlier in the year and I was sitting about 464 total test, free test was low due to SHBG being around 64 so I started taking Boron to bring the SHBG down which has helped. There have been logs on here of guys running it solo who were full of praise for the product but I guess everyone responds differently.

 

[Joshlm69]

With your base at 464, you're not going to see any benefits with Alpha Four to be honest. And this is someone who has enjoyed the product, but used it as a test base.

The logs on here with people running it solo I would imagine are people with very low test levels, or pairing it with TRT. All you're going to do is jack up your estrogen and your test wont push above your natural level.

I know its annoying to buy a product and then have to stop, but I think its the right call. Save it for if you ever run a prohormone/anabolic that requires a base.

The product can definitely provide a libido boost / joint support / mood support, but you have experienced the opposite to all of those which would mean that its most likely sent estrogen very high. If you dosed it lower, and split the dose, say 1 1/2 in the morning, 1 1/2 in the afternoon, you might see some benefits.

But again, given whats occured already, probably best to discontinue use

 

[mpross10]

Thanks for the response. It makes sense and I think I will come off it for now and just stick with the basics for a while longer.

 

[vlsk10]

With your base at 464, you're not going to see any benefits with Alpha Four to be honest. And this is someone who has enjoyed the product, but used it as a test base.

The logs on here with people running it solo I would imagine are people with very low test levels, or pairing it with TRT. All you're going to do is jack up your estrogen and your test wont push above your natural level.

I know its annoying to buy a product and then have to stop, but I think its the right call. Save it for if you ever run a prohormone/anabolic that requires a base.

The product can definitely provide a libido boost / joint support / mood support, but you have experienced the opposite to all of those which would mean that its most likely sent estrogen very high. If you dosed it lower, and split the dose, say 1 1/2 in the morning, 1 1/2 in the afternoon, you might see some benefits.

But again, given whats occured already, probably best to discontinue use

Would alpha seven and ultra epi by iconic f not raise testosterone any significant either? Used together on a cycle? What's 400 in European metrics? (In pmol/l)

 

[Joshlm69]

Would alpha seven and ultra epi by iconic f not raise testosterone any significant either? Used together on a cycle? What's 400 in European metrics? (In pmol/l)

You wouldn’t see a significant rise but it would raise testosterone. IIRC it’s Androststerone/7DHEA & Epiandro. Considered very light prohormones. You’d see body recomp & some feel good mentally.

Still at risk of sides such as heavy hair shedding (if prone), raised blood pressure & epiandro can in some cases cause anxiety.

7DHEA is natural and won’t cause suppression but the others can dose dependent.

I have used all 3. I unfortunately get very aggressive hair shedding with androsterone so don’t use it anymore. Epiandro causes light shedding but had a nice recomp effect. Androsterone however was the best prohormone I used in terms of how great you feel mentally

 

[vlsk10]

You wouldn’t see a significant rise but it would raise testosterone. IIRC it’s Androststerone/7DHEA & Epiandro. Considered very light prohormones. You’d see body recomp & some feel good mentally.

Still at risk of sides such as heavy hair shedding (if prone), raised blood pressure & epiandro can in some cases cause anxiety.

7DHEA is natural and won’t cause suppression but the others can dose dependent.

I have used all 3. I unfortunately get very aggressive hair shedding with androsterone so don’t use it anymore. Epiandro causes light shedding but had a nice recomp effect. Androsterone however was the best prohormone I used in terms of how great you feel mentally

Ok cuz I have those 2 at home and was hoping to use them later on a bulk or something. I can't right now cuz my focus is still on joint repair/rehab after thryoid issues. But the hair shedding is not a problem. I almost never shed on prohormones.

 

[Joshlm69]

Ok cuz I have those 2 at home and was hoping to use them later on a bulk or something. I can't right now cuz my focus is still on joint repair/rehab after thryoid issues. But the hair shedding is not a problem. I almost never shed on prohormones.

Both are definitely tailored to a cut rather than a bulk FYI. Obviously you can eat in a surplus and you will gain weight regardless, but I would save them for a cut personally

 

[vlsk10]

Both are definitely tailored to a cut rather than a bulk FYI. Obviously you can eat in a surplus and you will gain weight regardless, but I would save them for a cut personally

I've been in deficit for 10 months due to thyroid and lost over 4 stones lol (it was necessary, lost muscles obviously but not too much). Thryroid is now good. So IDK. I could continue being in deficit but just not as extreme. I definentily need to start eating more again but I Can still reach 2g protein per kg on deficit. Deficit can still be around 2000-2300 kals right? I was on like 1200-1500 kals total from April till September when I lost the most body fat.

They expire next year so maybe I try soon.

 

[Joshlm69]

I've been in deficit for 10 months due to thyroid and lost over 4 stones lol (it was necessary, lost muscles obviously but not too much). Thryroid is now good. So IDK. I could continue being in deficit but just not as extreme. I definently need to start eating more again but I Can still reach 2g protein per kg on deficit. Deficit can still be around 2000-2300 kals right? I was on like 1200-1500 kals total from April till September. That's when I lost the most body fat.

Deficit's are person dependant, so I cant tell you what is/isn't a deficit for you. If you eat 2500 calories a day, and you go to 2000-2300 that is a deficit.

Basically just take your normal day to day diet, drop 250-500 calories from it, and you are in a nice and steady fat burning phase.

 

[vlsk10]

Deficit's are person dependant, so I cant tell you what is/isn't a deficit for you. If you eat 2500 calories a day, and you go to 2000-2300 that is a deficit.

Basically just take your normal day to day diet, drop 250-500 calories from it, and you are in a nice and steady fat burning phase.

Ok. But there's not much fat left on me after those 4 stones if I continue I think I'll start seeing abs. At least the epi+ Andro will help me push stronger weights. I'll begin it very very soon. I think 2000 kcals will be a good number for me. Minimum 140g of protein.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Ok. But there's not much fat left on me after those 4 stones if I continue I think I'll start seeing abs. At least the epi+ Andro will help me push stronger weights. I'll begin it very very soon. I think 2000 kcals will be a good number for me. Minimum 140g of protein.

That sounds good. I shot for 250g protein per day. Some days i'm a little under but most days I can hit it with the help from my protein shakes!

 

[vlsk10]

That sounds good. I shot for 250g protein per day. Some days i'm a little under but most days I can hit it with the help from my protein shakes!

250 is a good amount but I'm like a 67-68kg normally. And I just realized eating celery stalks has been drying me out to 65-66 (I eat them for their fiber content + sperm volume increase, didn't know it was highly dieruritic.

For a bulk I could see myself reaching 200g. But my protein sources has been mostly single ingredient foods lately or less than 3 ingredients in it. Next time I'm buying protein powder I'll look for unsweetened and unflavoured. Dont wan't any artificial sweeteners or carbs from bad sugars in my diet Not even eretheritol, date sugar/monk fruit sugar. Stevia maybe. I don't know why stevia is getting no love in social media.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Dont wan't any artificial sweeteners

Why no artificial sweeteners in diet? Does it mess with your stomach?

 

[vlsk10]

Why no artificial sweeteners in diet? Does it mess with your stomach?

Because they are believed to be big C causers (cancer) and they mess with your good gut microbiome (this is known). Aspartame, sukralos, acesulfam K. Technically they can still trigger insuline response in some people even though they contain no real sugar -which leads to insuline resistance over time (again - in some people). I couldn't loose any body weight (fat perticulary) while being in a calorie defecit and drinking diet sodas. Hence I now keep my intake very low. Wish I could find a good EAA product that contains no sweeteners at all.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Because they are believed to be big C causers (cancer) and they mess with your good gut microbiome (this is known). Aspartame, sukralos, acesulfam K. Technically they can still trigger insuline response in some people even though they contain no real sugar -which leads to insuline resistance over time (again - in some people). I couldn't loose any body weight (fat perticulary) while being in a calorie defecit and drinking diet sodas. Hence I now keep my intake very low. Wish I could find a good EAA product that contains no sweeteners at all.

Aspartame I stay away from as I've heard that one is the worst of them all. Sucralose is in a lot of stuff so I'm hoping it's not cancer causing or else I need to sign up for kemo soon cause I intake way too much of it

 

[vlsk10]

Aspartame I stay away from as I've heard that one is the worst of them all. Sucralose is in a lot of stuff so I'm hoping it's not cancer causing or else I need to sign up for kemo soon cause I intake way too much of it

Yeah. Aspartame and acesulfam K seems to be in diet sodas, espcially Cola so I pretty much never drink it anymore. All those monsters, red bulls with zero sugar that I used to drink every day. It's all garbage for your health. I bought an EAA product containing only stevia instead of aspartame+ ascesulfam K. This is the only artifical sweetner in my diet lately.

My rules are very easy. Alcohol, and sodas only on weekends (if you must have a soda - if you crave it. And not more than 1-3 units). No fruit juice what so ever in my house. No sugars or honey in my cofee. Only a little bee pollen in my greek yoghurt every morning - for the bloomy taste (and for the nutritional value). One thing is pretty funny though. It's the fact that the coca cola company says neither high frucotose corn syrup or their artificial sweetners can lead to diabetes or are toxic (why should we trust them? they just wanna make money). Have they released the trump version coca cola yet?

 

[Joshlm69]

You do know you’d have to drink 20 diet sodas a day for over 2 decades for the aspartamene build up to be an issue right?

Labeling something as “garbage for your health” because an extremely high dose which no human consumes would make the ingredient bad, is ridiculous.

By that metric anything and everything is garbage for your health if you over consume it.

So much scare mongering in the fitness world today yet no one actually bothers to pull up case studies to see the dose studied is very sad

 

[vlsk10]

You do know you’d have to drink 20 diet sodas a day for over 2 decades for the aspartamene build up to be an issue right?

Labeling something as “garbage for your health” because an extremely high dose which no human consumes would make the ingredient bad, is ridiculous.

By that metric anything and everything is garbage for your health if you over consume it.

So much scare mongering in the fitness world today yet no one actually bothers to pull up case studies to see the dose studied is very sad

That's what they say -and it's backed up by the coca cola company and all the doctors out there (doctors are bought by the pharma industry). Instead Listen to dr eric berg, pompa. paul saladino - they wouldn't even touch the stuff - I promise you.

It was also causing insuline resistence in me - fat storage, unable to burn fat, a slow pace fat gain. It causes microbiome gut related issues - that can't be good right? If you're not consuming seed oils - then you shouldn't be consuming artificial sweeteners either. just saying. Processed foods and chemical concuntions such as the monster energy drink - just avoid.

 

[LucasBagoDoce]

That's what they say -and it's backed up by the coca cola company and all the doctors out there (doctors are bought by the pharma industry). Instead Listen to dr eric berg, pompa. paul saladino - they wouldn't even touch the stuff - I promise you.

It was also causing insuline resistence in me - fat storage, unable to burn fat, a slow pace fat gain. It causes microbiome gut related issues - that can't be good right? If you're not consuming seed oils - then you shouldn't be consuming artificial sweeteners either. just saying. Processed foods and chemical concuntions such as the monster energy drink - just avoid.

Paul Saladino is the best
"Oats and broccoli will kill you. Eat organs instead."
- proceeds to open a company of encapsulated powdered beef organs and sells each bottle for $65

 

[vlsk10]

Paul Saladino is the best
"Oats and broccoli will kill you. Eat organs instead."
- proceeds to open a company of encapsulated powdered beef organs and sells each bottle for $65

I dont buy into self marketing of brands. Same as with liver King and he's in prison now isn't he. If you overeat on beef organs you can get iron overload anyway. Iron is one of the hardest things to filter out. So you should be careful. I agree. Some of the things he say is very corny, sometimes he tells you good things though.

 

[Joshlm69]

That's what they say -and it's backed up by the coca cola company and all the doctors out there (doctors are bought by the pharma industry). Instead Listen to dr eric berg, pompa. paul saladino - they wouldn't even touch the stuff - I promise you.

It was also causing insuline resistence in me - fat storage, unable to burn fat, a slow pace fat gain. It causes microbiome gut related issues - that can't be good right? If you're not consuming seed oils - then you shouldn't be consuming artificial sweeteners either. just saying. Processed foods and chemical concuntions such as the monster energy drink - just avoid.

Listen to the people which pushed carnivore diet, made millions off it, then came off it because of how atrocious their health markers were?

im sure the 1 diet soda you drank occasionally caused that, and none of the other factors in your life at all, got it.

Stop recycling garbage fake information without any studies backing it up. Your favourite shitfluencer tells you something which isn't true, so you run off and tell 100 people. Do you see the problem this causes?

 

[vlsk10]

Look. You're right to have your own opinion. I get it. I'm just saying. I was hooked on the stuff for a long time. I drank several cans of that "zero sugar 4 calories bullshit for years, Dailey, weekly, monthly. 3-4 cans a day. I gained weight. It is so sweet that it tricks your body into insuline response, increased cravings.

When I'm counting every calorie and still can't loose weight you start looking at possible causes. Ok, thyroid was not so good. So I treated it down. Still couldn't loose weight. So I'm reading about studies showing insuline resistance caused by diet soda. So I cut my addiction completely and then finally I lost weight rapidly.

Now I even take chromium and Ceylon cinnamon after my meals because they've been shown to increase GLP1 - and reduce glucose/blood sugar/insuline spikes. This process initiates fat loss mode. And I always go for a small walk after I've eaten. I've been in full control ever since. No more silent fat gain whatsoever and more money in my wallet. I can still drink diet sodas occasionaly if I wanted to - but I don't even crave soda anymore. I beleive I'm much better without it.

 

[Joshlm69]

Look. You're right to have your own opinion. I get it. I'm just saying. I was hooked on the stuff for a long time. I drank several cans of that "zero sugar 4 calories bullshit for years, Dailey, weekly, monthly. 3-4 cans a day. I gained weight. It is so sweet that it tricks your body into insuline response, increased cravings.

When I'm counting every calorie and still can't loose weight you start looking at possible causes. Ok, thyroid was not so good. So I treated it down. Still couldn't loose weight. So I'm reading about studies showing insuline resistance caused by diet soda. So I cut my addiction completely and then finally I lost weight rapidly.

Now I even take chromium and Ceylon cinnamon after my meals because they've been shown to increase GLP1 - and reduce glucose/blood sugar/insuline spikes. This process initiates fat loss mode. And I always go for a small walk after I've eaten. I've been in full control ever since. No more silent fat gain whatsoever and more money in my wallet. I can still drink diet sodas occasionaly if I wanted to - but I don't even crave soda anymore. I beleive I'm much better without it.

I think that is a much better take than what you previously said! Good luck to you in your weight loss journey