M-Test Blood Results

[Slims]

Twelve weeks ago I added CEL's M-Test to my daily supplement stack.
Here are my endocrinology blood test results before starting and at the twelve week mark...

 

[Smont]

If you convert those to what my blood work gets measured in, you went from 700's to the 1,200's, that's pretty damn good. You should take something to lower shbg, it's high and if you get that down, your free testosterone will go up even more.

any idea why your prolactin is so high ? In the before it was already way out of range. It went down a little bit but still pretty high

 

[Joshlm69]

e2 also spiked massively which is odd. I know typically e2 will go up with such a big boost to testosterone, but it jumped quite a lot

Definitely take some p5p for the prolactin

 

[Slims]

If you convert those to what my blood work gets measured in, you went from 700's to the 1,200's, that's pretty damn good. You should take something to lower shbg, it's high and if you get that down, your free testosterone will go up even more.

any idea why your prolactin is so high ? In the before it was already way out of range. It went down a little bit but still pretty high

I'Ve done everything I can to reduce my SHBG, but it was over 200nmol before either of these, so I'll take 63. No idea why my prolactin is so high, but I'm guessing it's because of the rise in estrogen. So may add SNS Inhibit-E

 

[Smont]

I'Ve done everything I can to reduce my SHBG, but it was over 200nmol before either of these, so I'll take 63. No idea why my prolactin is so high, but I'm guessing it's because of the rise in estrogen. So may add SNS Inhibit-E

That doesn't make sense, your prolactin was higher on the before blood work. On the after bloods your estrogen went up but prolactin went down. It's still high but it went down 100 points

 

[Smont]

You should take something to bring estrogen down, but there's no correlation to the prolactin here, it's actually the opposite

 

[Smont]

So confused lol

 

[Slims]

So confused lol

In what way?

 

[gphagan1]

In what way?

He’s referring to your prolactin being high….you should take an AI for your estrogen being so high, and you could try SNS Inhibit P or another P5P supplement for prolactin. If that doesn’t lower it enough you may have to take Caber or Prami to get it under control. The thing is though you prolactin was high to begin with, so something caused that. You probably want to try and figure that out. I know steroids like Trest and Tren can raise prolactin, but not sure if you’ve took something like that or not.
But the boost in testosterone with M-Test is impressive….such a great supplement.

 

[Smont]

So confused lol

Confused that the prolactin was highest on the before bloods. In the after bloods prolactin is lowered.

Usually a rise in estrogen will come with a rise in prolactin, but in your case prolactin went down.

 

[Slims]

He’s referring to your prolactin being high….you should take an AI for your estrogen being so high, and you could try SNS Inhibit P or another P5P supplement for prolactin. If that doesn’t lower it enough you may have to take Caber or Prami to get it under control. The thing is though you prolactin was high to begin with, so something caused that. You probably want to try and figure that out. I know steroids like Trest and Tren can raise prolactin, but not sure if you’ve took something like that or not.
But the boost in testosterone with M-Test is impressive….such a great supplement.

I've not taken anything in regards to PH's, Sarms, or PED's. What else causes high prolactin?

 

[botk1161]

Had no idea M-test was this effective (I am on TRT).

 

[cronikgains]

I knew that **** worked

 

[gphagan1]

I've not taken anything in regards to PH's, Sarms, or PED's. What else causes high prolactin?

Hypothyroidism, different types of medications, tumors, and different metabolic activities in the body can raise prolactin. Not trying to alarm you, but you really should discuss it with your Doctor….actually an Endocrinologist would be better. I mean it could be nothing, and you take some P5P or Caber and it’s fine, but definitely keep an eye on it. Because I guarantee if it got high enough for you to lactate that would freak you out. But I absolutely believe that M-Test doesn’t have anything to do with it, one because as far as I know nothing in it should raise prolactin in healthy men, and two it was already high before you started, and like Smont said, it went down during M-Test.
Here’s a little information…..

Prolactin in men's health and disease - PubMed

PRL plays a diverse role in men's reproduction and health. Detecting and treating elevated PRL may not only improve infertility and hypogonadism but also have a positive effect on the metabolic profile of patient and control of glycemic control and metabolic profile - an important advantage...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Smont]

Even being injured or stressed out can raise prolactin significantly (short term). But if you are someone with a lot of systemic inflammation you will usually also have elevated prolactin.

Anti depressent and anti psychotic drugs tend to raise prolactin significantly.

Stress

 

[Smont]

Hypothyroidism, different types of medications, tumors, and different metabolic activities in the body can raise prolactin. Not trying to alarm you, but you really should discuss it with your Doctor….actually an Endocrinologist would be better. I mean it could be nothing, and you take some P5P or Caber and it’s fine, but definitely keep an eye on it. Because I guarantee if it got high enough for you to lactate that would freak you out. But I absolutely believe that M-Test doesn’t have anything to do with it, one because as far as I know nothing in it should raise prolactin in healthy men, and two it was already high before you started, and like Smont said, it went down during M-Test.
Here’s a little information…..

Prolactin in men's health and disease - PubMed

PRL plays a diverse role in men's reproduction and health. Detecting and treating elevated PRL may not only improve infertility and hypogonadism but also have a positive effect on the metabolic profile of patient and control of glycemic control and metabolic profile - an important advantage...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Your right, M test don't have anything to do with it. That's why I was saying it doesn't make sense. There's no logic connection here between M-test and prolactin or estrogen and prolactin.

In fact the opposite happened, estrogen went up and prolactin went down.

 

[Slims]

Even being injured or stressed out can raise prolactin significantly (short term). But if you are someone with a lot of systemic inflammation you will usually also have elevated prolactin.

Anti depressent and anti psychotic drugs tend to raise prolactin significantly.

Stress

That makes sense, my cortisol is through the rough too. My job is a very high pressure heavy graft job, my family is in ruins and my partner of six years (who I own a house with) got sectioned under the mental health act.
My daily supplement stack...
Whey Protein
Creatine
Multi Vitamin and Mineral
Magnesium Glycinate
Vitamin D3
M-Test
GlycoPhase
GlucoVantage XT
Recomp20
KSM-66

 

[gphagan1]

That makes sense, my cortisol is through the rough too. My job is a very high pressure heavy graft job, my family is in ruins and my partner of six years (who I own a house with) got sectioned under the mental health act.
My daily supplement stack...
Whey Protein
Creatine
Multi Vitamin and Mineral
Magnesium Glycinate
Vitamin D3
M-Test
GlycoPhase
GlucoVantage XT
Recomp20
KSM-66

Then you should try SNS Reduce XT, it’s great at reducing cortisol.

 

[Smont]

That makes sense, my cortisol is through the rough too. My job is a very high pressure heavy graft job, my family is in ruins and my partner of six years (who I own a house with) got sectioned under the mental health act.
My daily supplement stack...
Whey Protein
Creatine
Multi Vitamin and Mineral
Magnesium Glycinate
Vitamin D3
M-Test
GlycoPhase
GlucoVantage XT
Recomp20
KSM-66

Definitely could be stress related then. Sorry bud, I know what living under a heavy load feels like. Stay tuff. But also try to get your time to unwind in. It's a necessity, even though sometimes life doesn't make it a possibility

 

[Slims]

Definitely could be stress related then. Sorry bud, I know what living under a heavy load feels like. Stay tuff. But also try to get your time to unwind in. It's a necessity, even though sometimes life doesn't make it a possibility

Still getting my five lifting and six cardio sessions per week done The gym keeps me together

 

[gphagan1]

That makes sense, my cortisol is through the rough too. My job is a very high pressure heavy graft job, my family is in ruins and my partner of six years (who I own a house with) got sectioned under the mental health act.
My daily supplement stack...
Whey Protein
Creatine
Multi Vitamin and Mineral
Magnesium Glycinate
Vitamin D3
M-Test
GlycoPhase
GlucoVantage XT
Recomp20
KSM-66

Sorry, just read the first part on Cortisol when I suggested Reduce XT. I hope it starts getting better for you soon. Glad the gym helps. Stay strong brother.

 

[Joshlm69]

Aren’t you also on clomid long term? That could be attributing to your massive uptick in testosterone, but also in your huge e2 gain

 

[Slims]

Aren’t you also on clomid long term? That could be attributing to your massive uptick in testosterone, but also in your huge e2 gain

Yes, but I've been on the same dose for over a year now

 

[Smont]

That's a interesting variable, clomid was already in place long term so the jump was definitely from the m test 100%. I'm wondering if your estrogen jumping so high is partially due to the clomid still tho.

Do you feel any different or see any estrogen sides effects?

 

[Slims]

That's a interesting variable, clomid was already in place long term so the jump was definitely from the m test 100%. I'm wondering if your estrogen jumping so high is partially due to the clomid still tho.

Do you feel any different or see any estrogen sides effects?

I've got no side effects from either the high prolactin, the high estrogen (unless bloating is one) or the higher testosterone.

 

[gphagan1]

I've got no side effects from either the high prolactin, the high estrogen (unless bloating is one) or the higher testosterone.

Yeah bloating is from the high estrogen more than likely.

 

[Slims]

Yeah bloating is from the high estrogen more than likely.

That was one I actually didn't know of, but that explains a lot.
I've got some Aromasin on the way to lower get the estrogen under control.

 

[ironfiend22]

Had surgery three weeks ago and doc was supposed to include a t/e measurement in my pre-op bloodwork.
He did not.

But I have been on M test and PCT Assist since finishing a 3-Ad 11-Keto cycle 4 weeks ago. I added Alpha gel in 2 weeks ago. And have since switched the PCT Assist to Cloma Plex and 1-2 Caps of Inhibit E.

I will be doing this for 2 weeks and then Adding Prototest...2 more weeks then Anabolic XT. 2 more weeks then Anabolic Effect. Trying to get a feel for the effects . These measurements were encouraging. Hopefully getting bloods next week then cleared to start working out the week after.

 

[Smont]

Does Steve from SNS still own CEL? I'm pretty sure he does. I bet he'd love to see the results from the m test blood work here

 

[gphagan1]

Does Steve from SNS still own CEL? I'm pretty sure he does. I bet he'd love to see the results from the m test blood work here

Yeah, CEL, SNS, and XPG…. I bet he would love to see that….blood work is the proof that it works.

 

[gphagan1]

@sns8778 we thought you would like to see this guy’s blood work, and how big a Test boost he got from M-Test.

 

[Slims]

Does Steve from SNS still own CEL? I'm pretty sure he does. I bet he'd love to see the results from the m test blood work here

Yeah, CEL, SNS, and XPG…. I bet he would love to see that….blood work is the proof that it works.

@sns8778 we thought you would like to see this guy’s blood work, and how big a Test boost he got from M-Test.

I was thinking about tagging Steve in my initial post, but with such conflicting bloodwork I didn't know if he'd appreciate it.

I gave him bloodwork from Recomp20 a while back, proving how effective that was.

 

[sns8778]

Twelve weeks ago I added CEL's M-Test to my daily supplement stack.
Here are my endocrinology blood test results before starting and at the twelve week mark...

Congratulations. That's an awesome increase.

I'Ve done everything I can to reduce my SHBG, but it was over 200nmol before either of these, so I'll take 63. No idea why my prolactin is so high, but I'm guessing it's because of the rise in estrogen. So may add SNS Inhibit-E

It wouldn't be because of the increase in estrogen because it was higher before you started; its great that it is trending downward. I think Inhibit-E and Inhibit-P would be great additions for different reasons.

He’s referring to your prolactin being high….you should take an AI for your estrogen being so high, and you could try SNS Inhibit P or another P5P supplement for prolactin. If that doesn’t lower it enough you may have to take Caber or Prami to get it under control. The thing is though you prolactin was high to begin with, so something caused that. You probably want to try and figure that out. I know steroids like Trest and Tren can raise prolactin, but not sure if you’ve took something like that or not.
But the boost in testosterone with M-Test is impressive….such a great supplement.

I see where you're thinking is coming from, but I personally wouldn't go the AI route for estrogen because I think it could be related to Clomid and also to not metabolizing estrogen properly.

I would try Inhibit-E first bc that can help metabolize estrogen more effectively.

I would go with Inhibit-P for helping to decrease prolactin. It has P5P in it, plus more and I think that P5P works most effectively in the presence of the other ingredients in it.

Confused that the prolactin was highest on the before bloods. In the after bloods prolactin is lowered.

Usually a rise in estrogen will come with a rise in prolactin, but in your case prolactin went down.

Very good and relevant point and it makes me think 2 things:
1) The prolactin is trending down, which is great.
2) That the estrogen portion of the test may be related to Clomid, which you mentioned in a later post too.

I've not taken anything in regards to PH's, Sarms, or PED's. What else causes high prolactin?

There can be a lot of causes - and a major one is stress and it seems like you're really going through it.

It's trending downwards, which is a great thing.

I would take 1 capsule of Inhibit-P twice per day and I think you'll see a pretty big drop in 6 weeks.

Hypothyroidism, different types of medications, tumors, and different metabolic activities in the body can raise prolactin. Not trying to alarm you, but you really should discuss it with your Doctor….actually an Endocrinologist would be better. I mean it could be nothing, and you take some P5P or Caber and it’s fine, but definitely keep an eye on it. Because I guarantee if it got high enough for you to lactate that would freak you out. But I absolutely believe that M-Test doesn’t have anything to do with it, one because as far as I know nothing in it should raise prolactin in healthy men, and two it was already high before you started, and like Smont said, it went down during M-Test.
Here’s a little information…..

Prolactin in men's health and disease - PubMed

PRL plays a diverse role in men's reproduction and health. Detecting and treating elevated PRL may not only improve infertility and hypogonadism but also have a positive effect on the metabolic profile of patient and control of glycemic control and metabolic profile - an important advantage...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I've been writing an article series on high prolactin for when the new website updates happen, and its interesting what a lot of the causes can be.

There was a pretty dramatic reduction in prolactin during the 12 weeks, so I wouldn't add anything like Caber to it because it can have some pretty rough side effects and I think its important that it was high before and went down during so its trending downward.

I would personally take 2 Inhibit-P per day and have bloodwork redone in either 6 to 12 weeks; just my opinion.

That makes sense, my cortisol is through the rough too. My job is a very high pressure heavy graft job, my family is in ruins and my partner of six years (who I own a house with) got sectioned under the mental health act.
My daily supplement stack...
Whey Protein
Creatine
Multi Vitamin and Mineral
Magnesium Glycinate
Vitamin D3
M-Test
GlycoPhase
GlucoVantage XT
Recomp20
KSM-66

I'm very sorry to hear that you're going through all of that. If you ever need anyone to talk to, listen, or vent to, you're always welcome to message me and I'll give you my contact info.

M-Test and Recomp20 is a great stack.

That's a interesting variable, clomid was already in place long term so the jump was definitely from the m test 100%. I'm wondering if your estrogen jumping so high is partially due to the clomid still tho.

Do you feel any different or see any estrogen sides effects?

I've got no side effects from either the high prolactin, the high estrogen (unless bloating is one) or the higher testosterone.

I agree with Smont - the testosterone increase would be from the M-Test because you've been on Clomid for so long that it wouldn't be a variable, but I think too that the Clomid could be partially responsible for the estrogen increase because I've heard that before.

A lot of people that experience estrogen increases with Clomid use Inhibit-E with it.

That was one I actually didn't know of, but that explains a lot.
I've got some Aromasin on the way to lower get the estrogen under control.

That's not what I would do if it were me personally. I feel that sometimes people jump on something like that and its more of a band-aid than actually helping. But just my personal opinion.

I would personally add Inhibit-E because it can actually help promote healthy estrogen metabolism rather than just 'band-aid' type lower it.

 

[sns8778]

I was thinking about tagging Steve in my initial post, but with such conflicting bloodwork I didn't know if he'd appreciate it.

I gave him bloodwork from Recomp20 a while back, proving how effective that was.

No worries, I'm happy to see that the bloodwork shows that it increased your testosterone so much.

I think its also great that it shows that your prolactin is trending downwards.

I don't think the increase in estrogen is related to M-Test, I would suspect that like Smont mentioned, that it is likely related to the Clomid, if anything.

I think that Inhibit-E would be helpful in helping increase estrogen metabolism and that you'd likely see it balance out pretty quickly.

 

[gphagan1]

Congratulations. That's an awesome increase.



It wouldn't be because of the increase in estrogen because it was higher before you started; its great that it is trending downward. I think Inhibit-E and Inhibit-P would be great additions for different reasons.



I see where you're thinking is coming from, but I personally wouldn't go the AI route for estrogen because I think it could be related to Clomid and also to not metabolizing estrogen properly.

I would try Inhibit-E first bc that can help metabolize estrogen more effectively.

I would go with Inhibit-P for helping to decrease prolactin. It has P5P in it, plus more and I think that P5P works most effectively in the presence of the other ingredients in it.



Very good and relevant point and it makes me think 2 things:
1) The prolactin is trending down, which is great.
2) That the estrogen portion of the test may be related to Clomid, which you mentioned in a later post too.



There can be a lot of causes - and a major one is stress and it seems like you're really going through it.

It's trending downwards, which is a great thing.

I would take 1 capsule of Inhibit-P twice per day and I think you'll see a pretty big drop in 6 weeks.



I've been writing an article series on high prolactin for when the new website updates happen, and its interesting what a lot of the causes can be.

There was a pretty dramatic reduction in prolactin during the 12 weeks, so I wouldn't add anything like Caber to it because it can have some pretty rough side effects and I think its important that it was high before and went down during so its trending downward.

I would personally take 2 Inhibit-P per day and have bloodwork redone in either 6 to 12 weeks; just my opinion.






I'm very sorry to hear that you're going through all of that. If you ever need anyone to talk to, listen, or vent to, you're always welcome to message me and I'll give you my contact info.

M-Test and Recomp20 is a great stack.





I agree with Smont - the testosterone increase would be from the M-Test because you've been on Clomid for so long that it wouldn't be a variable, but I think too that the Clomid could be partially responsible for the estrogen increase because I've heard that before.

A lot of people that experience estrogen increases with Clomid use Inhibit-E with it.



That's not what I would do if it were me personally. I feel that sometimes people jump on something like that and its more of a band-aid than actually helping. But just my personal opinion.

I would personally add Inhibit-E because it can actually help promote healthy estrogen metabolism rather than just 'band-aid' type lower it.

Congratulations. That's an awesome increase.



It wouldn't be because of the increase in estrogen because it was higher before you started; its great that it is trending downward. I think Inhibit-E and Inhibit-P would be great additions for different reasons.



I see where you're thinking is coming from, but I personally wouldn't go the AI route for estrogen because I think it could be related to Clomid and also to not metabolizing estrogen properly.

I would try Inhibit-E first bc that can help metabolize estrogen more effectively.

I would go with Inhibit-P for helping to decrease prolactin. It has P5P in it, plus more and I think that P5P works most effectively in the presence of the other ingredients in it.



Very good and relevant point and it makes me think 2 things:
1) The prolactin is trending down, which is great.
2) That the estrogen portion of the test may be related to Clomid, which you mentioned in a later post too.



There can be a lot of causes - and a major one is stress and it seems like you're really going through it.

It's trending downwards, which is a great thing.

I would take 1 capsule of Inhibit-P twice per day and I think you'll see a pretty big drop in 6 weeks.



I've been writing an article series on high prolactin for when the new website updates happen, and its interesting what a lot of the causes can be.

There was a pretty dramatic reduction in prolactin during the 12 weeks, so I wouldn't add anything like Caber to it because it can have some pretty rough side effects and I think its important that it was high before and went down during so its trending downward.

I would personally take 2 Inhibit-P per day and have bloodwork redone in either 6 to 12 weeks; just my opinion.






I'm very sorry to hear that you're going through all of that. If you ever need anyone to talk to, listen, or vent to, you're always welcome to message me and I'll give you my contact info.

M-Test and Recomp20 is a great stack.





I agree with Smont - the testosterone increase would be from the M-Test because you've been on Clomid for so long that it wouldn't be a variable, but I think too that the Clomid could be partially responsible for the estrogen increase because I've heard that before.

A lot of people that experience estrogen increases with Clomid use Inhibit-E with it.



That's not what I would do if it were me personally. I feel that sometimes people jump on something like that and its more of a band-aid than actually helping. But just my personal opinion.

I would personally add Inhibit-E because it can actually help promote healthy estrogen metabolism rather than just 'band-aid' type lower it.

Yeah, I actually fell in love with Inhibit P years ago on a Test, Mast, Trest cycle. I started taking it about a month before starting the cycle and took throughout, and never had any issues. The Mast helped with estrogen and the Inhibit P for prolactin was all I needed the whole cycle. It won me over then and have used and recommended it several times, and I’ve never needed Caber. Ha, I tell people to keep it on hand on cycles with Trest or Tren , but I’ve never had to take it, the Caber.
As far as telling him about getting estrogen down with an AI that was before he had said he was taking Clomid long term, so yeah that does change things. Definitely agree with you and Smont on Clomid may be contributing to the issues, especially being on it long term.
I’ve used M-Test years ago and Cycle Assist and thought they were great. But when I saw his blood work after taking M-Test I was beyond impressed. That was like the jump I saw when I started TRT (Test 125 wk), but from a natural product, that’s pretty amazing. Actually I just started Anabolic XT a couple of weeks ago and really seem to already be progressing faster with strength, so interested to see how it continues.

 

[Slims]

No worries, I'm happy to see that the bloodwork shows that it increased your testosterone so much.

I think its also great that it shows that your prolactin is trending downwards.

I don't think the increase in estrogen is related to M-Test, I would suspect that like Smont mentioned, that it is likely related to the Clomid, if anything.

I think that Inhibit-E would be helpful in helping increase estrogen metabolism and that you'd likely see it balance out pretty quickly.

Well that's the third SNS/CEL product that I've done and have proven-to-work bloodwork with.

Really appreciate all that you do on here Steve.

 

[Stachio]

Well that's the third SNS/CEL product that I've done and have proven-to-work bloodwork with.

Really appreciate all that you do on here Steve.

What are the other 2 products you used??

 

[Slims]

What are the other 2 products you used??

I've used almost all SNS/CEL products at some point or another.
But have positive bloodwork improvements from
Recomp20
GlucoVantage
M-Test

 

[Smont]

I've used almost all SNS/CEL products at some point or another.
But have positive bloodwork improvements from
Recomp20
GlucoVantage
M-Test

What were the improvements when you were on recomp 20? Very interested in that one I don't remember that thread. I don't use tons of natural supplements but I did like recomp 20 so I'm interested to know what health marker is improved. I'm probably going to grab not gluco vantage but the other one with regular berberine in it after I run out of metformin. Got a mental block on the name

 

[Slims]

What were the improvements when you were on recomp 20? Very interested in that one I don't remember that thread. I don't use tons of natural supplements but I did like recomp 20 so I'm interested to know what health marker is improved. I'm probably going to grab not gluco vantage but the other one with regular berberine in it after I run out of metformin. Got a mental block on the name

I had a 22% increase in testosrerone after 12 weeks of Recomp20, which has become a staple supplement for me.
I think the conversation about this took up a few pages of the Recomp20 release thread by @sns8778

GlucoVantage XT reduced my HB1AC from 36.2nmol to 28.8nmol after twelve weeks, which has also become a daily staple supplement.
Diabetes runs down both my mom's and dad's bloodline, so I've tried almost every GDA and nutient partitioner over the years (All tested against my blood glucose monitor) and the best two are GlycoPhase and GlucoVantage XT

 

[gphagan1]

What were the improvements when you were on recomp 20? Very interested in that one I don't remember that thread. I don't use tons of natural supplements but I did like recomp 20 so I'm interested to know what health marker is improved. I'm probably going to grab not gluco vantage but the other one with regular berberine in it after I run out of metformin. Got a mental block on the name

Yep, GlycoPhase is probably the one you’re talking about, it has Berberine HCI in it. Works really well too. Recomp 20 is one I’m interested in too.

 

[Slims]

Yep, GlycoPhase is probably the one you’re talking about, it has Berberine HCI in it. Works really well too. Recomp 20 is one I’m interested in too.

I honestly cannot recommend Recomp20 enough.

 

[gphagan1]

I honestly cannot recommend Recomp20 enough.

Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of good things from those that have tried it. I didn’t realize it boosted Testosterone that well. I liked what I’ve heard about the leaning out and hardening effects, but the 22% boost in Test is a pleasant surprise.

 

[Slims]

Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of good things from those that have tried it. I didn’t realize it boosted Testosterone that well. I liked what I’ve heard about the leaning out and hardening effects, but the 22% boost in Test is a pleasant surprise.

I didn't expect it either, as I don't remember seeing it in the write up, but Steve said that lohdra bark has been shown to have test boosting effects.
It's strength boosting effects when taken pre-workout were the most noticable effects, similar to Urolithin-B and RippedFactor.