Ending TRT - now what

[jim2509]

Firstly Happy New Year to all.

So after two and half years of 100mg a week trt have decided to come off. Using hcg/enclomiphene to pct. My reasons are my pre levels weren't too bad, the positives I experienced on trt like increased energy, recovery tailed off after the first year and last 8 months had more injuries/tendon issues than last 10 years (49) which I thought might be e2 related but bloods are fine and with the type of training i do it might be incompatible especially around avoiding ACL type injuries. So with that in mind I'm staring at left over sus vials and oral left overs from the past pre trt like - Lgd 4033, Ostarine, Tbol, enclomiphene. Maybe use some of them before losing them in the spring once bloods levelled off for one last mini cycle. Am edging towards lgd 4033 with enclomiphene as pre trt I actually had some good success, or before that Ostarine/enclomiphene which I know people don't rate but I was in great all round condition on that one...probably explains why alot of boxers/mma guys keep popping for it.

Thoughts? Anyone bridged off trt into sarms/enclomiphene for small boost before?

 

[CorpKiller]

Check out Anabolic Doc
I think he has a protocol for coming off TRT

 

[jim2509]

Check out Anabolic Doc
I think he has a protocol for coming off TRT

Thanks for the reply, but I have no problem coming off trt or the pct......it was more to do with seeing if anyone has done something similar off trt and bridged into something else and using some of the bits I have left over then doing the pct down the line.

 

[Smont]

Thanks for the reply, but I have no problem coming off trt or the pct......it was more to do with seeing if anyone has done something similar off trt and bridged into something else and using some of the bits I have left over then doing the pct down the line.

I've very many times used bits of left over gear to make a cycle and I've came off trt before but I was like 37 when I did and I was only off for like 6 months tops. But, at 49, and being shutdown for 2 years, pct probably is likely going to be a bitch and you may find you don't get back to your old levels, Honestly the chance is pretty slim that you go back to your previous levels. Now that doesn't mean you can't recover enough to stay off, but keep that in mind. Also, the trt benifit didn't go away, it became the new normal, that happens to many ppl.

Once your cycle ends, I would love to see a log for recovering natural hormones and see how it goes. Hcg, hmg, clomid and nolva would be on hand for me if I was gonna try to do what your doing.

Either way, good luck boss, I hope everything goes smoothly as possible

 

[jim2509]

I've very many times used bits of left over gear to make a cycle and I've came off trt before but I was like 37 when I did and I was only off for like 6 months tops. But, at 49, and being shutdown for 2 years, pct probably is likely going to be a bitch and you may find you don't get back to your old levels, Honestly the chance is pretty slim that you go back to your previous levels. Now that doesn't mean you can't recover enough to stay off, but keep that in mind. Also, the trt benifit didn't go away, it became the new normal, that happens to many ppl.

Once your cycle ends, I would love to see a log for recovering natural hormones and see how it goes. Hcg, hmg, clomid and nolva would be on hand for me if I was gonna try to do what your doing.

Either way, good luck boss, I hope everything goes smoothly as possible

Thanks mate for replying, hope alls well. My last pin was 3 weeks ago, left it a week and started 500iu hcg M, W, F over last 2 weeks and surprisingly I'm feeling pretty good. Going to do finish the hcg then 2 weeks 12.5mg enclomiphene, then 2 weeks 6.25mg enclomiphene and check bloods..I'll post them up to give people an idea of what's what. It could take further enclomiphene use and months. But by starting now I might be able to sneak in a light cycle as described at some point. If I can't get somewhere near what i was pre trt I'll bite the bullet.

I just wondered whether it's worth running something really low dose to keep muscles and strength up whilst running the pct (low dose osta) which won't effect recovery too much. Not much out there other than the odd post of people using it in pct which we know is counterproductive if running it at usual cycle dosages.

 

[Smont]

Thanks mate for replying, hope alls well. My last pin was 3 weeks ago, left it a week and started 500iu hcg M, W, F over last 2 weeks and surprisingly I'm feeling pretty good. Going to do finish the hcg then 2 weeks 12.5mg enclomiphene, then 2 weeks 6.25mg enclomiphene and check bloods..I'll post them up to give people an idea of what's what. It could take further enclomiphene use and months. But by starting now I might be able to sneak in a light cycle as described at some point. If I can't get somewhere near what i was pre trt I'll bite the bullet.

I just wondered whether it's worth running something really low dose to keep muscles and strength up whilst running the pct (low dose osta) which won't effect recovery too much. Not much out there other than the odd post of people using it in pct which we know is counterproductive if running it at usual cycle dosages.

Osta is just as supressive as everything else, running anything in pct is super counter productive, i have bloodwork from a few years ago showing guys crush testosterone to single digits on 10mg of osta in 2 weeks. 14 days on 10mg took someone from the 400's to like 15! Osta It's something I actually tell people to take to suppress themselves before going to get checked for trt if there hanging around the bottom of the reference ranfge so the doctor will think your tanked. It's literally going to do almost nothing for muscle While keeping you more suppressed, don't run anything in pct is beyond foolish. Sorry not trying to be a dick, im trying to help.

Also 3 weeks off 500 test, your levels are probably still higher than trt, especially with hcg. Takes about 50 days for the 5 halflives to clear out. At 3 weeks your barely at 3 half lives so you still got a good amount of test. If you're gonna run something, I would just run a cycle and then pct. Just my personal opinion

 

[Smont]

I also think 12.5enclo for 2 weeks followed by 6.25 Isn't gonna bring you anywhere close to recovered. I imagine it's gonna take a solid couple of months. Just remember that during pct your numbers are Being elevated by outside means, so after pct you might look ok for the first few weeks And then after a few more weeks your levels may start to decline and crash again. If that happens, you'll know you're a candidate for actual t.r.t and can't get by without. But, hopefully that's not the case.

 

[Dblock]

I had the same scenario, I stopped and after 3 weeks felt and looked pretty darn good….but as Smont said it takes longer than you think to clear. At a certain point the bottom will fall out and you will feel like absolute trash

 

[jim2509]

I also think 12.5enclo for 2 weeks followed by 6.25 Isn't gonna bring you anywhere close to recovered. I imagine it's gonna take a solid couple of months. Just remember that during pct your numbers are Being elevated by outside means, so after pct you might look ok for the first few weeks And then after a few more weeks your levels may start to decline and crash again. If that happens, you'll know you're a candidate for actual t.r.t and can't get by without. But, hopefully that's not the case.

Thanks for the opinion/advice mate. I remember from previous bloods with Ostarine it wasn't too bad for me, but Lgd halved my test.......I think it is a you say better to get the pct done and let bloods settle first. I'll take heed of advice to keep checking bloods once enclomiphene is washed out of system and if necessary extended its run for a while. Fingers crossed I'll bounce back well but it'll be a good barometer for guys who are thinking similar and considering going back to natural. Thanks again mate

 

[thescience]

Thanks for the opinion/advice mate. I remember from previous bloods with Ostarine it wasn't too bad for me, but Lgd halved my test.......I think it is a you say better to get the pct done and let bloods settle first. I'll take heed of advice to keep checking bloods once enclomiphene is washed out of system and if necessary extended its run for a while. Fingers crossed I'll bounce back well but it'll be a good barometer for guys who are thinking similar and considering going back to natural. Thanks again mate

im interested in hearing the results; are you saying you are attributing the increased injuries to the correlating trt because it's making you stronger than the condition of your joints can handle?

 

[jim2509]

im interested in hearing the results; are you saying you are attributing the increased injuries to the correlating trt because it's making you stronger than the condition of your joints can handle?

I wouldn't say the trt made me noticeably stronger and I haven't changed my program at all over last 18 months. I do a combination of weights, boxing and cardio but from around June 2024, tendonitis flare ups in elbows, shoulder, ACL strain which I've never had. I looked into it and there's some research around trt and ACL/tendon issues. I also just haven't noticed much else after the first 12 months recovery, mood was really noticeable. I had pretty decent levels pre trt and probably jumped the gun. If I get back to somewhere where I was pre I'll be happy but here's the thing and it COULD be just a huge coincidence. Since stopping my injuries feel better and I genuinely feel better. I went over my last few bloods as thought it might be e2 related but numbers were great. Last pin was 3 weeks ago. Obviously it's early days so will see how it goes from here in the pct. Will probably throw in some mk677 ontop of the enclomiphene to keep igf-1 up and help with recovery.

 

[Smont]

I wouldn't say the trt made me noticeably stronger and I haven't changed my program at all over last 18 months. I do a combination of weights, boxing and cardio but from around June 2024, tendonitis flare ups in elbows, shoulder, ACL strain which I've never had. I looked into it and there's some research around trt and ACL/tendon issues. I also just haven't noticed much else after the first 12 months recovery, mood was really noticeable. I had pretty decent levels pre trt and probably jumped the gun. If I get back to somewhere where I was pre I'll be happy but here's the thing and it COULD be just a huge coincidence. Since stopping my injuries feel better and I genuinely feel better. I went over my last few bloods as thought it might be e2 related but numbers were great. Last pin was 3 weeks ago. Obviously it's early days so will see how it goes from here in the pct. Will probably throw in some mk677 ontop of the enclomiphene to keep igf-1 up and help with recovery.

That's nuts, I wish trt made me stronger. I need to get up over 300-450mg before I notice much of difference. We're you on actual trt or are you saying you have been on 500mg of test as trt?

Also, I train just like you, weights and boxing 90% of the time unless I'm training for something specific

Edit: trt was 100mg. That's even more awsome it jacked your strength up, you don't hear that often. Super jealous

 

[jim2509]

That's nuts, I wish trt made me stronger. I need to get up over 300-450mg before I notice much of difference. We're you on actual trt or are you saying you have been on 500mg of test as trt?

Also, I train just like you, weights and boxing 90% of the time unless I'm training for something specific

Edit: trt was 100mg. That's even more awsome it jacked your strength up, you don't hear that often. Super jealous

Apologies Smont, the 'trt didn't' make me noticeably stronger. I had some improvements in mood and recovery on my prescribed 100mg a week but that faded away in time. My numbers on trt were 850's which was good. I was hoping the trt would also show in my training....well it appears it had the opposite effect in the last year. I can't really get my head around the tendonitis now subsiding as I'm off. I'll update this as I go for the interest of any others considering pct off trt. I'm still using supplements such as high strength omega 3 ( 3000mg a day), Vit D (4000mg & MK7) Zinc and Magnesium/Potassium, Mulitivitamins, Taurine/NAC etc. Will throw in some creatine and Mk677 (10mg) to help training recovery.

 

[jim2509]

I had the same scenario, I stopped and after 3 weeks felt and looked pretty darn good….but as Smont said it takes longer than you think to clear. At a certain point the bottom will fall out and you will feel like absolute trash

Thanks for the info. From what I can see the Mean Resistance Time for test decanoate is around 30-35 days (dose dependent of course). As I was on 100mg a week and not blasting the MRT should hopefully be around 3 weeks, however there's obviously variables to consider such as injection sites, body fat and carrier oil. Mine was prescribed Aspen so all I can do is wait and see if I feel OK or not.

 

[Smont]

Apologies Smont, the 'trt didn't' make me noticeably stronger. I had some improvements in mood and recovery on my prescribed 100mg a week but that faded away in time. My numbers on trt were 850's which was good. I was hoping the trt would also show in my training....well it appears it had the opposite effect in the last year. I can't really get my head around the tendonitis now subsiding as I'm off. I'll update this as I go for the interest of any others considering pct off trt. I'm still using supplements such as high strength omega 3 ( 3000mg a day), Vit D (4000mg & MK7) Zinc and Magnesium/Potassium, Mulitivitamins, Taurine/NAC etc. Will throw in some creatine and Mk677 (10mg) to help training recovery.

Ok I understand now. That's very confusing to me as well.

 

[Smont]

I also think other variables could be in play, I'm turning 40, I keep getting injuries and tendinitis in my shoulders and some other places and I definitely atribute it to aging. Now if I'm completely wrong which I very well could be....

I wonder what your estrogen and igf 1 levels were at. I also wonder if maybe your carrier oil or something else completely unrelated was causing systemic inflammation.

I'm really not sure what's up, I'm just rattling off ideas

 

[jim2509]

I also think other variables could be in play, I'm turning 40, I keep getting injuries and tendinitis in my shoulders and some other places and I definitely atribute it to aging. Now if I'm completely wrong which I very well could be....

I wonder what your estrogen and igf 1 levels were at. I also wonder if maybe your carrier oil or something else completely unrelated was causing systemic inflammation.

I'm really not sure what's up, I'm just rattling off ideas

I know mate It's bizzare. The thing is every injury issue I've ever had whether it was in my ex military career or current emergency services and training....its always been down my right side. I did think is it just wear and tear/miles on the clock catching up as I reach half a century...but I'm not so sure. Definite increase in inflammation which had me looking at my e2 results from bloods...my last one was a little higher than previous (157 pmol) but still below reference range and shouldn't be causing the sudden onset of issues I had. Haven't had IGF-1 checked that might be worth looking into. The thing that's really thrown me is how I've felt since stopping and feeling less inflammation in tendons...not really too sure what to make of it yet.

 

[Stopstalking2]

I also think other variables could be in play, I'm turning 40, I keep getting injuries and tendinitis in my shoulders and some other places and I definitely atribute it to aging. Now if I'm completely wrong which I very well could be....

I wonder what your estrogen and igf 1 levels were at. I also wonder if maybe your carrier oil or something else completely unrelated was causing systemic inflammation.

I'm really not sure what's up, I'm just rattling off ideas

I’m also 40 been on trt for close to 3 years now, was always dealing with tendonitis. All the way back to my college baseball days but that was always my elbow now it’s my shoulders.

I been on three months theracumin xt and for the first time that I can remember I have had zero tendon pain. I take two pills a day and couldn’t recommend anything more then I can this.

 

[LeanEngineer]

was always dealing with tendonitis. All the way back to my college baseball days but that was always my elbow now it’s my shoulders.

Same here! My left elbow has always nagged me. Actually got diagnosed with cubital tunnel when I had it checked out.

Curcuprime has helped me for sure.

CurcuPrime by XPG

CurcuPrime by XPG is the ultimate topical joint health supplement. CurcuPrime helps reduce inflammation and promotes healthy joint mobility with curcumin.

www.strongsupplementshop.com

 

[Joshlm69]

Curcuprime + Joint Support XT was very good for niggling pain and joint/tendon issues.

MK677 actually fully healed my shoulder in 2 weeks when nothing else would. Felt it healing day by day, amazing stuff. Discontinued as soon as I was healed and maintain my joint/tendon health with Joint Support XT. If youre going down the MK677 route, make sure you take 200mg of p5p a day + Berberine with your meals to deal with Prolactin/insulin resistance

 

[jim2509]

Curcuprime + Joint Support XT was very good for niggling pain and joint/tendon issues.

MK677 actually fully healed my shoulder in 2 weeks when nothing else would. Felt it healing day by day, amazing stuff. Discontinued as soon as I was healed and maintain my joint/tendon health with Joint Support XT. If youre going down the MK677 route, make sure you take 200mg of p5p a day + Berberine with your meals to deal with Prolactin/insulin resistance

I've used mk677 as well for various issues and found it a very effective addition.

 

[Stopstalking2]

Same here! My left elbow has always nagged me. Actually got diagnosed with cubital tunnel when I had it checked out.

Curcuprime has helped me for sure.

CurcuPrime by XPG

CurcuPrime by XPG is the ultimate topical joint health supplement. CurcuPrime helps reduce inflammation and promotes healthy joint mobility with curcumin.

www.strongsupplementshop.com

Have used this as well but I personally responded much better to theracumin xt. Both are great products tho

 

[jim2509]

Just an update. So finished my hcg last week and have now started 12.5mg a day enclomiphene. Haven't felt anything really negative thus far since I've stopped 4 weeks ago. Positives have been better wood and thicker load so the hcg did something. Got back to training after some new years sickness and no recurrence of the inflammation issues i had during last year on trt, so at the moment it's positive. After I finish a month of enclomiphene I'll do bloods to see where I'm at.

 

[jim2509]

February update:

Still on 12.5mg of enclomiphene daily. It's been OK thus far although definitely noticed a small deterioration in January mood wise (to be expected) but getting better now.

Today I sent off some bloods to see where I am regarding test levels...will have them back hopefully end of week so will post them. Chased up my injuries with physio, wasn't a shoulder injury but scapula muscle strain which takes a while to sort especially when you've got an active job. Ankle wasn't achilles as feared and I worried it was trt related....it wasn't, it's anterior tendinopathy of the muscle that runs down the side of your calf to ankle....so over loaded it basically boxing/running last summer.

So that's where I am. Do I miss trt? Maybe mainly for mood enhancement and seemed less stressed. Will see what bloods say.

 

[jim2509]

Ok guys, so I got bloods back and have to say I was very surprised by the results...especially around overall test level which came back 17.5nmol ....more than it was pre trt. LH/Shbg/prolactin was high which I'm putting down to the hcg then enclomiphene use but here it is below.

I have to say considering the results I'd have expected to feel better mood/recovery wise and it reminded me why I went on trt in the first place (via lgd 4033) to get the over the line with the Dr's (it definitely worked Smont). So all things considered it's been relatively easy to get back to mid range...where it'll settle post enclomiphene is another matter...it may drop and stabilise sub 15 nmol and be left with sub par mood irritability/recovery which is how I was pre trt. Decisions, decisions....I guess having 'normal' levels doesn't necessarily mean you feel normal or optimised.

 

[thescience]

Ok guys, so I got bloods back and have to say I was very surprised by the results...especially around overall test level which came back 17.5nmol ....more than it was pre trt. LH/Shbg/prolactin was high which I'm putting down to the hcg then enclomiphene use but here it is below.

I have to say considering the results I'd have expected to feel better mood/recovery wise and it reminded me why I went on trt in the first place (via lgd 4033) to get the over the line with the Dr's (it definitely worked Smont). So all things considered it's been relatively easy to get back to mid range...where it'll settle post enclomiphene is another matter...it may drop and stabilise sub 15 nmol and be left with sub par mood irritability/recovery which is how I was pre trt. Decisions, decisions....I guess having 'normal' levels doesn't necessarily mean you feel normal or optimised.

just speculating, but i think alot of guys feel "alpha" on something when their estrogen is also high. i remember logs for testruction where a guy declined adding the recommended anti estrogen and was raving about how great he felt but that his build was turning into sh*t. if you dont feel right now, then yeah maybe the boost you had on trt had become your "new normal."

i was able to drastically increase my free test/lower shbg with, i believe, divanyl

 

[mase1]

I will say enclomiphene boosted my levels greatly on paper getting TRT, but didn't feel great. Didn't feel bad but nothing like trt. Since coming off and transitioning onto Cel pct assist feeling pretty good. Of course with a couple other natural supplements. I'm similar to you and I went on self trt at 200mg a week and was great for almost 2 years but then started having side effects, maybe if a Dr was involved it would have helped. But my natural levels were 750 prior so I didn't need it. Other then it is completely different on 200mg physically then off. Can't look the same naturally.

 

[jim2509]

just speculating, but i think alot of guys feel "alpha" on something when their estrogen is also high. i remember logs for testruction where a guy declined adding the recommended anti estrogen and was raving about how great he felt but that his build was turning into sh*t. if you dont feel right now, then yeah maybe the boost you had on trt had become your "new normal."

i was able to drastically increase my free test/lower shbg with, i believe, divanylye

just speculating, but i think alot of guys feel "alpha" on something when their estrogen is also high. i remember logs for testruction where a guy declined adding the recommended anti estrogen and was raving about how great he felt but that his build was turning into sh*t. if you dont feel right now, then yeah maybe the boost you had on trt had become your "new normal."

i was able to drastically increase my free test/lower shbg with, i believe, divanyl

Yeah it's weird. My estrogen is in a good range, same as when I was on trt. Am taking 10mg Boron to lower shbg. Libido not as proficient as on trt but prolactin and LH high so that could be having some effect. Will see how it tails off and where I land on cessation of enclomiphene. If I don't feel as good as I hoped....will hop back on trt.

 

[Joshlm69]

Same here on enclo, my test rose significantly but I felt like sh*t on it, not sure why you're messing around with RC's when you can get test! Better to get back on test & use your blood work to get yourself to optimum levels with your e2, prolactin etc

 

[jim2509]

Same here on enclo, my test rose significantly but I felt like sh*t on it, not sure why you're messing around with RC's when you can get test! Better to get back on test & use your blood work to get yourself to optimum levels with your e2, prolactin etc

If you have a read from the beginning I came off trt after 2 and a half years and am on a PCT so I've not been 'messing around ' with RC's. Going back on trt is always an option for me so we'll see how it goes.

 

[thescience]

Yeah it's weird. My estrogen is in a good range, same as when I was on trt. Am taking 10mg Boron to lower shbg. Libido not as proficient as on trt but prolactin and LH high so that could be having some effect. Will see how it tails off and where I land on cessation of enclomiphene. If I don't feel as good as I hoped....will hop back on trt.

well i think the deal with enclo is that the estrogen isnt binding to the receptor, since the enclo has occupied it. that doesnt happen with estrogen when taking trt

 

[Smont]

Jacked dad aka the lifter has returned. Didn't even switch up his old tricks, just keeps beating that same horse

 

[Smont]

Come again?

Already came twice

 

[PolishHamm3r77]

Is this next?

 

[Joshinator]

Firstly Happy New Year to all.

So after two and half years of 100mg a week trt have decided to come off. Using hcg/enclomiphene to pct. My reasons are my pre levels weren't too bad, the positives I experienced on trt like increased energy, recovery tailed off after the first year and last 8 months had more injuries/tendon issues than last 10 years (49) which I thought might be e2 related but bloods are fine and with the type of training i do it might be incompatible especially around avoiding ACL type injuries. So with that in mind I'm staring at left over sus vials and oral left overs from the past pre trt like - Lgd 4033, Ostarine, Tbol, enclomiphene. Maybe use some of them before losing them in the spring once bloods levelled off for one last mini cycle. Am edging towards lgd 4033 with enclomiphene as pre trt I actually had some good success, or before that Ostarine/enclomiphene which I know people don't rate but I was in great all round condition on that one...probably explains why alot of boxers/mma guys keep popping for it.

Thoughts? Anyone bridged off trt into sarms/enclomiphene for small boost before?

The next step is getting back on TRT because you'll likely not recover 100% from a year of being shut down. The regions of the brain that control testosterone production (hypothal and pituitary) atrophy don't always recover. The longer its shut down, the less likely it is to recover. Hopefully, you will recover 100%. It was foolish to hop on TRT if you were already good. I do wish you the best

 

[jim2509]

The next step is getting back on TRT because you'll likely not recover 100% from a year of being shut down. The regions of the brain that control testosterone production (hypothal and pituitary) atrophy don't always recover. The longer its shut down, the less likely it is to recover. Hopefully, you will recover 100%. It was foolish to hop on TRT if you were already good. I do wish you the best

If you look at my post pct bloods I posted im at 17.5nmol in barely 6 weeks....highly than when I went trt in the first place. But thanks anyway I appreciate the post. Trt definitely has it pluses especially mental effects.